Let's talk about....incels

[Aqua Buddha 14590]

I found this chart.  Does anyone besides me find this troubling?

 

Granted, its from 2018, but I can't imagine the trend is any different now.  Also, 30% is now low and 30 years old is not young.  That being said, I'd point to the rise of smart phones and internet porn being ubiquitous as the beginning in 2008 as the main drivers.  That's obvious, though.

However, is this harmful to society as a whole?  I know the Baptists who want to police our tingly parts to make sure they don't touch may like this trend but let's look at the other side.  I've seen some data about how young men and women are starting to self segregate with various factors.  (Politics, education, etc.)  We watched "Girls State" on Apple and it touched on this.  They were on the same campus as Boys State but it was like watching two different universes.  You could tell the girls didn't want anything to do with them.

When you get past smart phones and the internet, what's puzzles me is how young men just aren't interested in getting laid, to be blunt.  Back in the Gen X days, literally everything we did was in order to get girls.  Get a job, get a car, drive, go to college, make money, stay in shape, etc. were ALL to get girls.  It was rare if you were still a virgin at 18 and especially if you still were in college. When you take away that ambition as a heterosexual (and maybe homosexual) male, there is no reason to get off your mom's couch and put down the controller.

I think there are long term downsides to this, though.  With the self sorting and the lack of ambition by young men to get women, you'll see marriage rates and household formation plummet even more than what they are now.  More troublesome, though, is we'll have an entire generation of angry incels, if we're not there already.  They'll blame the women (of course).  It can't be their fault they can't get a girl.  They'll just get angrier.  

I saw a stat a few weeks ago that I'm sure I could dig up if I wanted that said the % of Gen Z women that identified as bi-sexual FAR outstripped women from other generations and then Gen Z men as well.  I took that to mean as the young men were so unimpressive that they were willing to give the other team a try even if they'd prefer to find a man.  

This is also at a time where it's easier than it ever has been to get laid through dating apps, internet, etc.  If I were single and had nothing on my radar, I could prolly get laid within a week and get married in six months.  I might not like how that ends up but the point is that it's easy if you're motivated and have just a little bit of skill.

Thoughts from this august body of mostly older (Gen X and above) men?

[freyguy 4268]

I blame women

[mdmost 43001]

You can probably chart the rise of this and the rise of guys like Andrew Tate and the male entitlement he's selling. Maybe that's a part of it. Maybe some ladies don't want to deal with guys like that. Maybe those guys have such unrealistic ideas of what woman should want or how to get them. I doubt Covid helped with that. It's probably worse now. 

Edited April 26 by mdmost

[Beau Vine 54212]

Maybe they got married?

[freyguy 4268]

12 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Maybe they got married?

that's not funny....

[Gatorubet 30213]

Thanks, Obama….

[Brisketexan 105096]

1 hour ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I found this chart.  Does anyone besides me find this troubling?

Well....I'd bet something close to 27% of men under 30 sure find it troubling.

[SimonBolivar 10958]

1 hour ago, mdmost said:

You can probably chart the rise of this and the rise of guys like Andrew Tate and the male entitlement he's selling. Maybe that's a part of it. Maybe some ladies don't want to deal with guys like that. 

[BurntEyes 5972]

I'd need to know a lot more about the data sets and methodologies before really getting into the depths.

At a high level just as slut shaming was and remains a very real thing, back in 89-2000 I can't think of a single male I knew that would admit to being a virgin. These days, the stigma of being a virgin isn't what it used to be and that could account for a large increase of men admitting they are virgins. 

[Brisketexan 105096]

1 hour ago, mdmost said:

You can probably chart the rise of this and the rise of guys like Andrew Tate and the male entitlement he's selling. Maybe that's a part of it. Maybe some ladies don't want to deal with guys like that. Maybe those guys have such unrealistic ideas of what woman should want or how to get them. I doubt Covid helped with that. It's probably worse now. 

I do think there really is something that needs to be figured out on this front.  We can have all kinds of hypotheses (and I certainly do), but it's almost certainly 1) a combination of things, but 2) one or two large factors are largely driving the bus.

My hypothesis, by the way, is similar to yours -- the Andrew Tate approach of telling young men they are entitled to any and all the women they want is poison.  I freely confess to basing that hypothesis largely on my son's anecdotal experience.  He describes a world where having even a modicum of game, and just being able to treat women with basic respect instead of contempt and entitlement, gives you more options than you know what to do with.  I also think there's a factor of it being easier than ever for young men to live their entire lives in front of a video screen, alternately playing video games and jerking off to wildly unrealistic porn that gives them completely unrealistic expectations about sex and relationships.

And yeah, I don't get it.  As a GenX dude....my quest for female contact dominated most everything I did from age 12 to.....well, what time is it right now?

But I ain't a psychologist or sociologist.  I'm curious what the work on this subject has to say.

[Rimbo 25921]

highly available porn is the #1 thing that changed

Generations before Gen Z had to really work to find porn.

['stache 21802]

I was involuntarily celebate before it was cool. 

[Brisketexan 105096]

4 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

highly available porn is the #1 thing that changed

Generations before Gen Z had to really work to find porn.

No arguing that point. AND, we largely had to develop our own fantasies around it.  Pictures in a magazine?  Well, if you were gonna fantasize about having sex with her, you had to construct a scenario in your head.

Now?  Any scenario you want, or could possibly imagine, no matter how insanely unrealistic, is out there.  Seriously.  I don't get the whole "stuck porn" genre.  How many people were begging for videos of women stuck in a dryer so they could walk up behind them and bang them?  That never would have even occurred to young Brisket.  And trust me....LOTS of things occurred to young Brisket.

[Helobious 9448]

BurntEyes nailed it. It’s not really stigmatized at all for young men to admit that they’re virgins anymore. It’s nothing like when I was growing up in the 2000s & early 2010s. I think that alone probably drives the number up significantly. I mean you have Andrew Tate the other day saying that any sex (even with a female) that isn’t for the purpose of procreation is “gay” and that it shouldn’t be done.

Edited April 26 by Helobious

[CooterBrown 18006]

11 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

highly available porn is the #1 thing that changed

Generations before Gen Z had to really work to find porn.

It was easier to get pussy than porn in the early 90s.

 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

No arguing that point. AND, we largely had to develop our own fantasies around it.  Pictures in a magazine?  Well, if you were gonna fantasize about having sex with her, you had to construct a scenario in your head.

Now?  Any scenario you want, or could possibly imagine, no matter how insanely unrealistic, is out there.  Seriously.  I don't get the whole "stuck porn" genre.  How many people were begging for videos of women stuck in a dryer so they could walk up behind them and bang them?  That never would have even occurred to young Brisket.  And trust me....LOTS of things occurred to young Brisket.

Lots of us who went to A&M only lost our virginity BECAUSE our paramour got stuck in some barb wire. 

[atomheartbevo 89651]

26 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

At a high level just as slut shaming was and remains a very real thing, back in 89-2000 I can't think of a single male I knew that would admit to being a virgin. These days, the stigma of being a virgin isn't what it used to be and that could account for a large increase of men admitting they are virgins. 

Substitute the word “loser” for virgin. It’s very fashionable for some folks to proclaim themselves as victims because of circumstances they claim are out of their control when the reality is they won’t man up and go talk to women.  Dating and social media sites in the late 90s and early 2000s made it easier to hook up than ever. Much, much easier.  And now it’s even easier with a ton of such sites literally available on your phone.  

[Brisketexan 105096]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

Substitute the word “loser” for virgin. It’s very fashionable for some folks to proclaim themselves as victims because of circumstances they claim are out of their control when the reality is they won’t man up and go talk to women.  Dating and social media sites in the late 90s and early 2000s made it easier to hook up than ever. Much, much easier.  And now it’s even easier with a ton of such sites literally available on your phone.  

We old farts have said it on here multiple times: bathe.  Dress decently.  Learn how to carry on a conversation with another real live human being.  Get out of your cave and be able to discuss something other than your latest Call of Duty escapade.  There.  That's it.  Do that, and you've already vaulted into the world of "dudes chicks will consider going out with."  The bar is pretty fucking low....but you still gotta clear it.

[Helobious 9448]

2 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

 

 

When you get past smart phones and the internet, what's puzzles me is how young men just aren't interested in getting laid, to be blunt.  Back in the Gen X days, literally everything we did was in order to get girls.  Get a job, get a car, drive, go to college, make money, stay in shape, etc. were ALL to get girls.  

Pretty much all those super popular red-pill self-help gym bro motivational types on social media still say that you should do all those things, just for yourself, not to impress women. Idea being that chasing women is un-alpha and detractive from your own personal goals and happiness. Which to me is actually not horrible advice, it’s just taken to an unhealthy extreme. Life is about your relationship with others above all, in my opinion.

[SimonBolivar 10958]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We old farts have said it on here multiple times: bathe.  Dress decently.  Learn how to carry on a conversation with another real live human being.  Get out of your cave and be able to discuss something other than your latest Call of Duty escapade.  There.  That's it.  Do that, and you've already vaulted into the world of "dudes chicks will consider going out with."  The bar is pretty fucking low....but you still gotta clear it.

It isn't everything of course, but losing 15lbs probably wouldn't hurt that 30% either.

[Zepol87 9185]

Getting laid is really fucking easy but god damn it’s so annoying to hear all the I know my worth single mom bullshit over and over. Just tough that out and agree for a bit and they give it up. Whatever the woman version of Andrew Tate, slay queen you deserve this life bullshit is very annoying though. 

[gofuckyourself 8210]

So it's time to start the "Artificial Intelligence Fleshbots and the Stupid Shit They Say/Do" thread?

 

[RDCanecutter 26411]

I see that chart and all that occurs to me is that we older guys should step up our Dos Equis Man game.

[Brisketexan 105096]

1 minute ago, Zepol87 said:

Getting laid is really fucking easy but god damn it’s so annoying to hear all the I know my worth single mom bullshit over and over. Just tough that out and agree for a bit and they give it up. Whatever the woman version of Andrew Tate, slay queen you deserve this life bullshit is very annoying though. 

Like there wasn't DIFFERENT annoying shit from women that you had to wade through back in our day....

[ztejas 43418]

2 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

When you get past smart phones and the internet, what's puzzles me is how young men just aren't interested in getting laid, to be blunt.  Back in the Gen X days, literally everything we did was in order to get girls.  Get a job, get a car, drive, go to college, make money, stay in shape, etc. were ALL to get girls.  It was rare if you were still a virgin at 18 and especially if you still were in college. When you take away that ambition as a heterosexual (and maybe homosexual) male, there is no reason to get off your mom's couch and put down the controller.

The idea that every male's life should revolve around and be assigned worth based on "getting pussy" is toxic in itself and rather ridiculous. Just like the idea that every woman needs to get married and have kids to have any self-worth.

2 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

I saw a stat a few weeks ago that I'm sure I could dig up if I wanted that said the % of Gen Z women that identified as bi-sexual FAR outstripped women from other generations and then Gen Z men as well.  I took that to mean as the young men were so unimpressive that they were willing to give the other team a try even if they'd prefer to find a man.  

That's rather ridiculous conjecture. For starters, the % of bi GenZ males almost assuredly outstrips the % of millenial/genX males. By your logic, if there are women tired of men then there are almost as many men tired of women.

Let's not act like every female out there is doing a bang-up job at presenting themselves as a suitable partner. All of this cuts both ways regardless of whether it's 40% women's fault/60% men's, whatever.

[SimonBolivar 10958]

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

The idea that every male's life should revolve around and be assigned worth based on "getting pussy" is toxic in itself and rather ridiculous.

Sure it is, but not gonna lie I can't think of anything in life that is more fun than that chase when it's going well. 

[Deej 76759]

2 hours ago, mdmost said:

You can probably chart the rise of this and the rise of guys like Andrew Tate and the male entitlement he's selling. Maybe that's a part of it. Maybe some ladies don't want to deal with guys like that. Maybe those guys have such unrealistic ideas of what woman should want or how to get them. I doubt Covid helped with that. It's probably worse now. 

I think both sexes have unrealistic expectations. 

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

7 minutes ago, gofuckyourself said:

So it's time to start the "Artificial Intelligence Fleshbots and the Stupid Shit They Say/Do" thread?

 

2,1,4,3

[956 Worldwide 34705]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We old farts have said it on here multiple times: bathe.  Dress decently.  Learn how to carry on a conversation with another real live human being.  Get out of your cave and be able to discuss something other than your latest Call of Duty escapade.  There.  That's it.  Do that, and you've already vaulted into the world of "dudes chicks will consider going out with."  The bar is pretty fucking low....but you still gotta clear it.

One thing I’ve been wondering about has just been the general state of the young. There’s a college campus near work and I see young (under 30 people) and DAMN. They are a bunch more in rough physical shape than I remember. And I’m on the wrong side of 40 and absolutely in the zone where most young women look hot.

And this isn’t just calling the youth uggos. I have the over 40 dad bod of a man who gets in three good workouts a week and likes beer and BBQ more than my workout. And I notice that if I let myself slack too much or go overboard on the beer and BBQ the mojo and drive goes down. 
 

I don’t imagine that being super unfit at 23 and probably toking all the time and eating like shit is good for chasing tail. 

[Deej 76759]

10 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Pretty much all those super popular red-pill self-help gym bro motivational types on social media still say that you should do all those things, just for yourself, not to impress women. Idea being that chasing women is un-alpha and detractive from your own personal goals and happiness. Which to me is actually not horrible advice, it’s just taken to an unhealthy extreme. Life is about your relationship with others above all, in my opinion.

Who hijacked Helobious' account?

[Zepol87 9185]

The dudes in their 20s need to give trying to get laid in their age group. Way easier to find a mid 40s-mid 50s divorced milf with some plastic surgery who is ready. 

[ztejas 43418]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I have the over 40 dad bod of a man who gets in three good workouts a week and likes beer and BBQ more than my workout.

[SimonBolivar 10958]

Just now, Zepol87 said:

The dudes in their 20s need to give trying to get laid in their age group. Way easier to find a mid 40s-mid 50s divorced milf with some plastic surgery who is ready. 

Just date the slightly overweight fun girl in the group for a bit. You learn how to use the parts effectively, enjoy going out with another human, make mistakes, and then move on to prime targets. 

[chainsaw 9865]

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/12/the-sex-recession/573949/

TLDR:

1. more fapping

2. less privacy and worse social skills

3. tinder (made it easier for women to avoid the 27% and invariably disappoints everyone)

4. more stigma for the kind of sex that shouldn't have been happening back then (sex based on dubious consent) and less stigma for girl-on-girl ("better") sex

5. more insecurity (millennials don't get naked in locker room)

[Zepol87 9185]

Just now, SimonBolivar said:

Just date the slightly overweight fun girl in the group for a bit. You learn how to use the parts effectively, enjoy going out with another human, make mistakes, and then move on to prime targets. 

Solid advice until the insecure chick asks where you learned that

[Brisketexan 105096]

2 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Just date the slightly overweight fun girl in the group for a bit. You learn how to use the parts effectively, enjoy going out with another human, make mistakes, and then move on to prime targets. 

Truer words have rarely been spoken.  It's a win-win.  Hell, maybe y'all really end up hitting it off and stay together.  People are meant to connect and enjoy each other's company.  Relax, chill, and enjoy the ride in life.

1 minute ago, Zepol87 said:

Solid advice until the insecure chick asks where you learned that

"I do a lot of reading.  I wanted tonight to be good for you."

[Zepol87 9185]

5 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Just date the slightly overweight fun girl in the group for a bit. You learn how to use the parts effectively, enjoy going out with another human, make mistakes, and then move on to prime targets. 

Vic and I have been living this life for a long time 

[SimonBolivar 10958]

One of my best childhood friends fits this thread perfectly and I've watched his journey into being a 34 year old virgin. 

 

1.) He was overweight as a kid so he get zero attention from girls and he had zero confidence

2.) Continued being overweight in high school and focused on playing football (OL of course) so much that he never went to prom or on a date

3.) Got hung up on a girl in college that is way out of hi league and never moved on until graduation

4.) Got hit on by an ugly slut in college and didn't pursue her for even a night because he felt some sort of chivalry towards said out of league girl who barely knew his name.

5.) Became an adult and got hung up on another girl out of his league who did text him back but anyone who wasn't an incel could tell she wasn't interested by the way she responded.

6.) Continue gaining weight until he is 5'9" 300lbs

 

My wife and I set him up with a friend and we doubled with them for his first ever date (he was 28) and it went well enough that the girl wanted a second, but the girl we set him up with had a similar body type to him and he rejected that instantly and never called her back. Now he's a grown ass man at 34 and his prospects are incredibly dim because he's been on one date in his life, and he has no idea how to treat an actual woman if he were to accidently go on a date again. The poor bastard has his bedroom in his 1br apartment completely decorated in a 7th grade male all sports all the time aesthetic. He has never read a book in his life and can't really talk about anything other than sports or action movies. He doesnt travel because he doesnt want to go alone so he'll only go out of town to sporting events with others. He refuses to use dating apps because of his confidence being 0 and says he would never date a woman with a kid.

 

This dude has a college degree, has been a teacher for over a decade so he makes alright money (relatively to some other incels), and he's a really nice guy so some woman would assuredly be ok with him being a bit immature in tastes as a grown man. He just doesn't give himself a chance and I'm sure there are plenty of other incels that fit into his category that just don't really know what to do or where they fit in society.

Edited April 26 by SimonBolivar

[Genco 3040]

9 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

Vic and I have been living this life for a long time 

Slightly overweight?

[Zepol87 9185]

Good god that 1-6 is depressing, so is it that they get hung up on the way too hot chick who won’t put out or not interested in sex unless it’s with the gorgeous girl? 

[Schulz2.0 28951]

[RDCanecutter 26411]

24 minutes ago, Zepol87 said:

Vic and I have been living this life for a long time 

Yes you have.

Edited April 26 by RDCanecutter
OO OO OOH

[Beau Vine 54212]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't get the whole "stuck porn" genre.  How many people were begging for videos of women stuck in a dryer so they could walk up behind them and bang them?

[Aha Shake 4]

Middle aged and not single but I have to say it’s smartphones. Young people don’t have to seek each other out physically to be “interacting” continuously.
 

Small town Texas we used to go to the movies every weekend before we could drive because that’s where we could hang out. Sit in the dark with girls. See what’s up. Now they lay around on phones.
 

Not only that they’re also just distracting in general. If you and your wife have a habit of having phones near while watching TV at night see what happens when you put them away for a week or so. More hanging out, relaxing. Even old fogies are more likely to get laid then. They’re just in the way of life sadly. 

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

30 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

One thing I’ve been wondering about has just been the general state of the young. There’s a college campus near work and I see young (under 30 people) and DAMN. They are a bunch more in rough physical shape than I remember. And I’m on the wrong side of 40 and absolutely in the zone where most young women look hot.

And this isn’t just calling the youth uggos. I have the over 40 dad bod of a man who gets in three good workouts a week and likes beer and BBQ more than my workout. And I notice that if I let myself slack too much or go overboard on the beer and BBQ the mojo and drive goes down. 
 

I don’t imagine that being super unfit at 23 and probably toking all the time and eating like shit is good for chasing tail. 

A lot of truth here. The weed we smoked as teens/young adults wasn't nearly as strong as weed today. Throw in the number of kids these days that are on SSRIs or Benzos and it can't be good for the libido. 

[Surly Bevo 24908]

12 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

One of my best childhood friends fits this thread perfectly and I've watched his journey into being a 34 year old virgin. 

 

1.) He was overweight as a kid so he get zero attention from girls and he had zero confidence

2.) Continued being overweight in high school and focused on playing football (OL of course) so much that he never went to prom or on a date

3.) Got hung up on a girl in college that is way out of hi league and never moved on until graduation

4.) Got hit on by an ugly slut in college and didn't pursue her for even a night because he felt some sort of chivalry towards said out of league girl who barely knew his name.

5.) Became an adult and got hung up on another girl out of his league who did text him back but anyone who wasn't an incel could tell she wasn't interested by the way she responded.

6.) Continue gaining weight until he is 5'9" 300lbs

 

My wife and I set him up with a friend and we doubled with them for his first ever date (he was 28) and it went well enough that the girl wanted a second, but the girl we set him up with had a similar body type to him and he rejected that instantly and never called her back. Now he's a grown ass man at 34 and his prospects are incredibly dim because he's been on one date in his life, and he has no idea how to treat an actual woman if he were to accidently go on a date again. The poor bastard has his bedroom in his 1br apartment completely decorated in a 7th grade male all sports all the time aesthetic. He refuses to use dating apps because of his confidence being 0 and says he would never date a woman with a kid.

 

This dude has a college degree, has been a teacher for over a decade so he makes alright money (relatively to some other incels), and he's a really nice guy so some woman would assuredly be ok with him being a bit immature in tastes as a grown man. He just doesn't give himself a chance and I'm sure there are plenty of other incels that fit into his category that just don't really know what to do or where they fit in society.

[Beau Vine 54212]

38 minutes ago, Deej said:

Who hijacked Helobious' account?

His persona on the sports boards is a bit, dumbass.

[Deej 76759]

Well, that persona follows him outside just the sports boards. Maybe you should get out more. 

[Willfully Horn 8008]

I had felt somewhat removed from news of this social development, though the rhetoric I encountered was offensive. Yesterday, I learned two adult males were set up on UT campus bringing this misogyny to light in a confrontational, demeaning, and sexually explicit sideshow. And my youngest daughter was assaulted by this depravity and delusion on a regular basis.

I am less interested in counseling shortshanks than I am in kneecapping them.

[Zepol87 9185]

7 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

A lot of truth here. The weed we smoked as teens/young adults wasn't nearly as strong as weed today. Throw in the number of kids these days that are on SSRIs or Benzos and it can't be good for the libido. 

Weed is alright but give me an 8 ball no chance baby girl