Let's talk about....incels

[tx 3 putt 76,905]

On 4/26/2024 at 2:09 PM, Beau Vine said:

Maybe they got married?

and posting on here

[rage-a-holic 4,382]

1 hour ago, mchookem said:

as a female who 1) drank a good amount in college, and 2) had plenty of sex in college, often after/while drinking, allow me to say that i do not look back on any of those instances and think 'i think i was sexually assaulted'. mostly, i look back on those days the same as y'all - fondly and with a healthy amount of cringe. 

the only time i felt disturbed in any way was a frat party (can't remember which, but one of the smaller ones), where i ended up separated from my friend, in an upstairs room and suddenly decided i did not want to be there anymore, and the 'gentleman' who had escorted me upstairs thought it would be a good time to play a game of 'block the door/keep her from leaving'. 

so whichever of you assholes that was, sorry-not sorry for kicking you in the balls and running. 

Are you a large latina with a prosthetic limb and a harelip? I apologize if I scared you, I didn't want you to leave because I was trying to propose to you.

[F250 28,767]

4 hours ago, mchookem said:

as a female who 1) drank a good amount in college, and 2) had plenty of sex in college, often after/while drinking, allow me to say that i do not look back on any of those instances and think 'i think i was sexually assaulted'. mostly, i look back on those days the same as y'all - fondly and with a healthy amount of cringe. 

the only time i felt disturbed in any way was a frat party (can't remember which, but one of the smaller ones), where i ended up separated from my friend, in an upstairs room and suddenly decided i did not want to be there anymore, and the 'gentleman' who had escorted me upstairs thought it would be a good time to play a game of 'block the door/keep her from leaving'. 

so whichever of you assholes that was, sorry-not sorry for kicking you in the balls and running. 

I encountered one of these situations at a party in 94/95. I had a small bag of hydro but nothing to smoke it with so this dude said he knew where to get a small bong and there wasn't enough to go around so we stayed upstairs smoking. Out of nowhere this chick who was already wasted pops in asking for a hit.

We share and within minutes a group of dudes are in the room and the bedroom door is shut. Several guys are circling her like vultures and starting to get touchy.

I intervened by putting my arm around her and saying "can I talk to you for a second?" I walked her to the bedroom door and opened it then told her "you need to go find your friends now" then pushed her out of the room and closed the door. I turned around and blocked the door so nobody would follow her.

[chainsaw 9,865]

16 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Marginal Rapists would not make a good band name.

Part-timers, amateurs, casuals....

[Goredho 17,399]

Anyone brought up free pr0n & laziness?  The sex drive can be satiated without it being a social event requiring another human.  It's so much easier, cheaper and less of a hassle to just open up an incognito window, find some visual stimulation and jerk off (sorry Texas).

I am pretty convinced that humanity will go extinct in a couple generations after AI sexbots are perfected.  Unless there is some system in place to harvest semen injected into feminine sex bots by men to be injected into women by masculine sex bots.

 

['stache 21,802]

Am I the only one bothered by the wording in the graphic? The heading says "Young Male Virginity On the Rise" but the poll's premise says "Men under 30 who report zero sexual partners since turning 18." So the poll captures people who had sex before 18 but not for the next 12 years? Those people are by definition not virgins. It think they're trying to refer to men between 18 and 30 who are still virgins to avoid polling men under 18 who are still virgins since that is (or should be) pretty normal. Why not just word it that way? "Men between 18 and 30 who are virgins." 

Edited April 29 by 'stache

[Goredho 17,399]

Seriously.  

"Now that everyone has nearly free internet, let's give them completely free pr0n in their bedroom.  This will be a loss leader to get them in the door, then we'll empty their wallet on subscriptions, live shows and shit.  Sure, maybe only 5% get to the point, but we'll make more off that 5% than we would making cost of pr0n a barrier for consumption."

25 years later:

"Men under 30 who report zero sexual partners since turning 18 rising at alarming rate."

This is another example of capitalism run amok in this cuntry.  Who gives a fuck what happens to society as long as my numbers keep going up?

[SimonBolivar 10,958]

1 minute ago, Goredho said:

Seriously.  

"Now that everyone has nearly free internet, let's give them completely free pr0n in their bedroom.  This will be a loss leader to get them in the door, then we'll empty their wallet on subscriptions, live shows and shit.  Sure, maybe only 5% get to the point, but we'll make more off that 5% than we would making cost of pr0n a barrier for consumption."

25 years later:

"Men under 30 who report zero sexual partners since turning 18 rising at alarming rate."

This is another example of capitalism run amok in this cuntry.  Who gives a fuck what happens to society as long as my numbers keep going up?

[Aqua Buddha 14,590]

1 hour ago, Goredho said:

Anyone brought up free pr0n & laziness?  The sex drive can be satiated without it being a social event requiring another human.  It's so much easier, cheaper and less of a hassle to just open up an incognito window, find some visual stimulation and jerk off (sorry Texas).

I am pretty convinced that humanity will go extinct in a couple generations after AI sexbots are perfected.  Unless there is some system in place to harvest semen injected into feminine sex bots by men to be injected into women by masculine sex bots.

 

Most definitely.  

It's one wrinkle to the story about whoring going down that I find interesting.  They're saying in person spending is down because younger generations aren't into sex as much as the boomers but online porn is a huge business.  So, is it just laziness and/or fear of dealing with a woman in person?

[chainsaw 9,865]

15 hours ago, mchookem said:

i do not look back on any of those instances and think 'i think i was sexually assaulted'.

I'm glad you feel that way, and my sense is most people feel that way. What's changed recently is that some people and a vocal group of advocates have started a conversation about whether consent in those situations is valid.

A few who have gotten way too deep into those conversations are re-examining their past and declaring the consent invalid. I'm definitely in favor of having clearer "rules of engagement" when it comes to consent. Alcohol of course is a gray area and always will be a gray area. The safest thing is to avoid buzzed intimacy altogether, except with a steady partner where the question of consent is not really in doubt.

[Captainant 27,653]

50 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

It's one wrinkle to the story about whoring going down that I find interesting.  They're saying in person spending is down because younger generations aren't into sex as much as the boomers but online porn is a huge business.  So, is it just laziness and/or fear of dealing with a woman in person?

I don't think it's ONLY laziness - I think it's lack of free or leisure time to pursue a relationship. Once you're out of college and on your own, there's a load of expectations put on employees by their bosses - being available for schedule changes at the drop of a hat, or being put oncall constantly, or being put on a contract basis such that you're only earning when you're getting jobs so you're doing 105% every job.

My point is, today's society in general gives people less time for themselves than ever. Relationships take a ton of time and effort, casual sex less so but still time and effort, and cranking it to some porn to scratch that itch has way fewer strings attached that may make you choose between getting paid and getting off.

 

edit: there's definitely some laziness at play, but it's reductive to the point of missing the forest for the trees to say it's primarily laziness.

Edited April 29 by Captainant

['stache 21,802]

I think a big part of it is that being a "prude" isn't as big a deal as in prior generations, but girls in particular are more empowered and can be far choosier in whether to have sex, and with whom, without losing social capital. I think it goes along with trends in which the younger generations don't binge drink or do hard drugs as much as older generations did at their age, and the social pressures to do those things is far less. I've seen it with my niece who is now in her early 20s and my daughter who is in middle school. I also think the internet phenomenon isn't just about online porn, but how gross dudes can be in dm's,etc. As a result, young girls either lose interest in being sexually active that early, or are far choosier. An article that was posted here (I think, or I saw it elsewhere) talked about how girls in Gen Z and Gen Alpha often wear socks with sandals because of all the gross requests for feet pics they get if they are barefoot or in sandals. I see some correlation on that topic.

TLDR: Dudes are gross, girls are finally catching on.

Edited April 29 by 'stache

[Incredulity 11,665]

The alcohol/consent topic has been prevalent for quite a long time.  I recall it being pretty prominent in the first year welcome to campus seminars/classes that everyone goes through.  I certainly would believe its been even more emphasized recently.

The difference in generations is most certainly a combinations of several factors. 

I'd lean more towards social media amplifying the consequence of young adult mistakes/learning.  embarrassing video of drunken buffonery, but also getting put on blast for even trying to get laid.

 

[SydneyCarton 48,076]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:53 AM, Nivek said:

Choose life, choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family…

[Nivek 16,923]

Cosign chief.  it would also help identify the mentally ill who cannot accept authority - and would provide a means (possibly) for those with sketchy literacy skills to be forced to sit in the class with the teaching equivalent of a drill sergeant helping them how to read and write at (at least) a minimal level required to be a functioning member of society. 
In a broader picture, it would take people out of their current culture and get them away from people/family/friends who enable negative behavior with their support.   
If you only lived in bumfuck Arkansas or some Inner-city project your whole life, the fact of meeting a ton of different people with a different take on the world would be a positive thing. It would also be good for kids born on third who think they hit a home run to have to compete - and lose - to individuals they previously thought were their inferiors. 
I think it is a great idea and a good return for the money.  And if we ever face a Ukraine situation, you have millions of people who went through basic training. 

Freedom!!!

[Foosters 17,850]

its the internet, stupid.

The rise of anonymous social media platforms allowed individuals to discuss and celebrate what had heretofore been markers of failure and shame.

See, 2chan in Japan and the Otaku. See, 4chan in the west and Incels.

[Guadaloopy 10,960]

Leonard ending up with Penny fucked up a lot of people.

[F250 28,767]

2 minutes ago, Foosters said:

its the internet, stupid.

The rise of anonymous social media platforms allowed individuals to discuss and celebrate what had heretofore been markers of failure and shame.

See, 2chan in Japan and the Otaku. See, 4chan in the west and Incels.

I believe the incels have always been among us but were scattered and shamed into the corners of society until the internet united them. I shared a story about an employee that I helped who had all the traits of what is now called an incel. The biggest hurdle for him was overcoming his sense of entitlement and frustration for not being able to date a "Stacey".

This was about twenty five years ago and the incel community didn't exist yet. However, he did hang out with this one creep named Russ that fed him a lot of proto-Incel shit. He said this guy Russ had a massive DVD porn collection, spent all his money at strip clubs, frequented Hooters type restaurants and said every hot girl is really just a stripper looking to fleece you. All this talk would just feed his resentment.

I managed get him to cut ties with Russ. He needed to be removed from all that negative misogynistic feedback. Eventually this young guy met someone more his speed and developed a relationship.

It was hard for him to overcome the influence of one proto-incel if the Red pill community existed back he would have been sucked right into their black hole of anger and despair forever.

['stache 21,802]

I get the argument about the internet and smartphones, but didn't that also make it way easier to get on an app and find some rando to bang on any given night? Referring back to my prior post, my early 20's niece has said how gross she and her friends think Tinder is and consider it an older millennial think to just bang whoever swipes the right direction. 

Edited April 29 by 'stache

[Nivek 16,923]

5 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I get the argument about the internet and smartphones, but didn't that also make it way easier to get on an app and find some rando to bang on any given night? Referring back to my prior post, my early 20's niece has said how gross she and her friends think Tinder is and consider it an older millennial think to just bang whoever swipes the right direction. 

You do understand how logic doesn't exist with this same age group right?  I talked to my nieces about smoking cigarettes and they all agreed how gross it was and how bad it was.  None of their friends do it.  Feeling encouraged I asked about vaping.   I was discouraged after that.

[F250 28,767]

2 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I get the argument about the internet and smartphones, but didn't that also make it way easier to get on an app and find some rando to bang on any given night? Referring back to my prior post, my early 20's niece has said how gross she and her friends think Tinder is and consider it an older millennial think to just bang whoever swipes the right direction. 

I think that made it worse for a certain segment of men that were rejected by a fire hose of left swipes. The successful ones treat it like Grubhub for sex and drop the facade of politeness giving it the ick factor.

Like with all things, dudes ruin everything by chasing off the women and turning it into a sausage party.

[CHIEF 5,079]

Not necessarily incels, but a lot of young singles in general no longer go to clubs and bars in our area. A DWI will wreck them financially. We are lucky in that we have a 19th Hole in our neighborhood and security doesn't give DWIs, in fact, you can call them to come pick your drunk ass up and take you home. My son bailed out one friend, and had another get one leaving the last wedding we attended. He worked at Lockheed and got let go because he could no longer qualify for Top Secret clearance. Our 19th Hole is an older crowd, but there are some pretty young women, bartenders, and our cart girl is a smoke show. At work, the older women are always trying to set him up with their daughters or granddaughters. I'm glad he didn't take a job working from home.

CHIEF

Edited April 29 by CHIEF

[Al_4_ISU 12,457]

I'd be dead in a gutter somewhere if Tinder or similar apps had existed when I was in college ('03-'07), and all I cared about at that age was getting pussy.  I figured out very quickly that simply paying attention to a woman's needs/interests and making sure they got theirs first was the gateway to getting what I was after.  Basic respect goes a long ways in life.

Social media and high speed internet (allowing fast downloads of porn videos) were just coming around in these days, and while they hadn't taken root yet, guys my age (the eldest millenials) were absolutely influenced by the American Pie/Varsity Blues back slapping bros that had a view point about sex that the woman's needs were irrelevant as long as you got yours (think Tweeder basically bragging about committing underrage rape).  In HS those guys got more than I did.  By the time college rolled around, it was like I had a fucking cheat codes.

It's easy to see how social media, smartphones, and the isolation inherent within those devices has created the situation we're seeing today.  Any young man with any kind of in-person social skills, and the resolve to not get sucked into that Alpha Male bullshit has to be just swimming in it at this point.

57 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Not necessarily incels, but a lot of young singles in general no longer go to clubs and bars in our area. A DWI will wreck them financially. We are lucky in that we have a 19th Hole in our neighborhood and security doesn't give DWIs, in fact, you can call them to come pick your drunk ass up and take you home. My son bailed out one friend, and had another get one leaving the last wedding we attended. He worked at Lockheed and got let go because he could no longer qualify for Top Secret clearance. Our 19th Hole is an older crowd, but there are some pretty young women, bartenders, and our cart girl is a smoke show. At work, the older women are always trying to set him up with their daughters or granddaughters. I'm glad he didn't take a job working from home.

CHIEF

I think it's less a fear of DWI (although that IS real) and more of a fear of having to talk to people in real life.

[Helobious 9,448]

20 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Any young man with any kind of in-person social skills, and the resolve to not get sucked into that Alpha Male bullshit has to be just swimming in it at this point.

 

I don’t know where people get this idea. I have great social skills, good basic hygeine, educated, make ok-ish money, physically active & strong (5’11 180 and can bench 225 easily). I can confirm I’m not swimming in it, although I don’t do horribly either. 
 

All of that is bottom of the barrel bare minimum that young women expect/want these days. This thread is all about how men have unrealistic expectations and nothing about the expectations women have.

Edited April 29 by Helobious

[Al_4_ISU 12,457]

1 minute ago, Helobious said:

I don’t know where people get this idea. I have great social skills, good basic hygeine, educated, make ok-ish money, physically active & strong (5’11 180 and can bench 225 easily). I can confirm I’m not swimming in it, although I don’t do horribly either. 
 

All of that is bottom of the barrel bare minimum that young women expect/want these days. This thread is all about how men have unrealistic expectations and nothing about the expectations women have.

How old are you?

Any of my friends born before 1988 or so that have become single in the last 6-7 years have said it's so much easier to get laid now than when we were younger.  The guys who grew up with in person socializing but now have access to dating apps seem to be the most equipped to thrive in the current ecosystem.

[MAUFRAIS 6,623]

I'd need to know a lot more about the data sets and methodologies before really getting into the depths.
At a high level just as slut shaming was and remains a very real thing, back in 89-2000 I can't think of a single male I knew that would admit to being a virgin. These days, the stigma of being a virgin isn't what it used to be and that could account for a large increase of men admitting they are virgins. 

Sounds like something a nineties virgin would say.

[Helobious 9,448]

15 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

How old are you?

Any of my friends born before 1988 or so that have become single in the last 6-7 years have said it's so much easier to get laid now than when we were younger.  The guys who grew up with in person socializing but now have access to dating apps seem to be the most equipped to thrive in the current ecosystem.

90s baby. Also I grew in the internet era. Facebook was the big thing when I was in high school. I assure you “in person socializing” wasn’t & isn’t a problem. You talk to people everyday in school, after school, at work, etc.

[BurntEyes 5,970]

10 minutes ago, MAUFRAIS said:

Sounds like something a nineties virgin would say.

I'm an old. I was an 80s virgin. 

[Samson's Wig 3,191]

NM

Edited April 29 by Samson's Wig

[immamac 42,839]

1 hour ago, Helobious said:

90s baby. Also I grew in the internet era. Facebook was the big thing when I was in high school. I assure you “in person socializing” wasn’t & isn’t a problem. You talk to people everyday in school, after school, at work, etc.

i think the point is a lot of people don’t. I think the porn angle is way way way overblown here. 

I think incels, the rise of the andrew tates of the world etc are really what drives this. It would be interesting to see the numbers for the same age of women, but I’d suspect that it’s far fewer. 

Chastity as a virtue isn’t increasing in society, but for some reason it does seem like promiscuity has become more taboo than previously when I interact with some younger people it’s pretty obvious. 

I also think that if you choose not to participate in social media you have a really hard time not being viewed as a weirdo. I’ve seen this from all ages in the current dating scene now. If you don’t have Facebook/twitter/instagram you are a creep because they can’t stalk you. 

[Incredulity 11,665]

Lets not pretend that porn was a rarity for young adults in the  late 80’s and 90’s.  Yeah it was a bit more effort to rewind Debbie does Dallas and maybe a few people didn’t have a VCR but it was readily available with not a lot of challenges.

Edited April 29 by Incredulity

[atomheartbevo 89,648]

1 hour ago, BurntEyes said:

I'm an old. I was an 80s virgin. 

So you used BBSes and BBS meetups to get laid as well?

[atomheartbevo 89,648]

32 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Lets not pretend that porn was a rarity for young adults in the  late 80’s and 90’s.  Yeah it was a bit more effort to rewind Debbie does Dallas and maybe a few people didn’t have a VCR but it was readily available with not a lot of challenges.

Yep.  The porn fairy would hide the really good, hardcore stuff, in a box inside of a suitcase under some old blankets and behind another suitcase in the back of the closet in my friend’s parents’ bedroom.  Or hide the lesser stuff (Playboys) behind a dumpster out behind the local convenience store or in the drop ceiling of the 6th grade boys bathroom, or the locked file cabinet (easily picked) in the storage closet in my old pastor’s office at the church.

['stache 21,802]

1 hour ago, immamac said:

i think the point is a lot of people don’t. I think the porn angle is way way way overblown here. 

I think incels, the rise of the andrew tates of the world etc are really what drives this. It would be interesting to see the numbers for the same age of women, but I’d suspect that it’s far fewer. 

Chastity as a virtue isn’t increasing in society, but for some reason it does seem like promiscuity has become more taboo than previously when I interact with some younger people it’s pretty obvious. 

I also think that if you choose not to participate in social media you have a really hard time not being viewed as a weirdo. I’ve seen this from all ages in the current dating scene now. If you don’t have Facebook/twitter/instagram you are a creep because they can’t stalk you. 

I sort of think that the current form of female empowerment includes being choosier about sexual partners, which makes the incel types furious. An earlier wave of feminism included "sexual liberation" as a response to centuries where being "virtuous" was a requirement for women and any sex other than with a husband for the sole purpose of having babies was frowned upon. Of course the latter end of that era involved women being labeled sluts and whores while men were considered studs and players. I think what we're seeing now is a pushback against that era. Just a theory.

Edited April 29 by 'stache

[immamac 42,839]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

I sort of think that the current form of female empowerment includes being choosier about sexual partners, which makes the incel types furious. An earlier wave of feminism included "sexual liberation" as a response to centuries where being "virtuous" was a requirement for women and any sex other than with a husband for the sole purpose of having babies was frowned upon. Of course the latter end of that era involved women who went that route being labeled sluts and whores while men receiving the benefits were considered studs and players. I think what we're seeing now is a pushback against that era. Just a theory.

I don’t think this is the case. Women haven’t all of the sudden become more selective. 

some of you really have never interacted with the Jordan Peterson/Andrew Tate/Stephen Crowder types have you? It’s fucking brutal even for other men who aren’t incels to tolerate them let alone women. 

[immamac 42,839]

insanity. 

['stache 21,802]

8 minutes ago, immamac said:

I don’t think this is the case. Women haven’t all of the sudden become more selective. 

some of you really have never interacted with the Jordan Peterson/Andrew Tate/Stephen Crowder types have you? It’s fucking brutal even for other men who aren’t incels to tolerate them let alone women. 

I generally do not encounter these types, so I can't really comment. My proposal was just a theory.

[immamac 42,839]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

I generally do not encounter these types, so I can't really comment. My proposal was just a theory.

Watch the video above. They hide behind faux intellectualism and being alpha and in control of their own life/destiny to oppress and write off women and their opinions/rights as humans. It’s completely psychotic.  

[Aqua Buddha 14,590]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

Lets not pretend that porn was a rarity for young adults in the  late 80’s and 90’s.  Yeah it was a bit more effort to rewind Debbie does Dallas and maybe a few people didn’t have a VCR but it was readily available with not a lot of challenges.

Porn back then was pretty basic, though, even the movies.  Fairly basic sex.

It’s the Wild West now…..

[F250 28,767]

2 hours ago, BurntEyes said:

I'm an old. I was an 80s virgin. 

 

[Brisketexan 105,095]

10 minutes ago, F250 said:

 

Linda Fiorentino's role there was as sexy as it gets.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,190]

31 minutes ago, immamac said:

some of you really have never interacted with the Jordan Peterson/Andrew Tate/Stephen Crowder types have you?

Why would I?

[F250 28,767]

15 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Porn back then was pretty basic, though, even the movies.  Fairly basic sex.

It’s the Wild West now…..

 

[Smax 3,800]

36 minutes ago, immamac said:

 

some of you really have never interacted with the Jordan Peterson/Andrew Tate/Stephen Crowder types have you? It’s fucking brutal even for other men who aren’t incels to tolerate them let alone women. 

 

Ill just say that there is something happening to young men that make then start following that group and believing their bullshit. Socially normal guys, dont fall into that BS

Edited April 29 by Smax

[Incredulity 11,665]

27 minutes ago, immamac said:

insanity. 

What do you find in this video to be insanity?   This video really is 30% Peterson speaking behind a Ben Affleck/Ana DA movie that I don't really know. 

Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate seem quite different in basically every way.

[F250 28,767]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate seem quite different in basically every way.

 

[Incredulity 11,665]

27 minutes ago, immamac said:

Watch the video above. They hide behind faux intellectualism and being alpha and in control of their own life/destiny to oppress and write off women and their opinions/rights as humans. It’s completely psychotic.  

I think maybe you linked the wrong video?  

[Incredulity 11,665]

1 minute ago, F250 said:

 

I don't really know either of them well.  Tate seems like pseudo alpha a-hole.  Peterson insists on himself, but I haven't heard him espouse similar.  He says there are women psychopaths, but they can't use physicality to victimize so they use other means.  Which seems pretty right to me.  There are bad, bad people of both sexes out there.

[Brisketexan 105,095]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

I don't really know either of them well.  Tate seems like pseudo alpha a-hole.  Peterson insists on himself, but I haven't heard him espouse similar.  He says there are women psychopaths, but they can't use physicality to victimize so they use other means.  Which seems pretty right to me.  There are bad, bad people of both sexes out there.

Peterson somehow manages to bundle "every woman who isn't a submissive tradwife type" into the "psychopath" group.  Women who exercise any agency fucking piss him off.  They piss off all of these losers.  Why?  Because women with agency and options don't fuck guys whose primary approach to women is "I'm the man, you owe it to me to give up the pussy."  Peterson puts a better vocabulary on it, with that nice Canadian accent and delivery, but the message boils down to the same thing.  Women who want to be submissive trad wives are emotionally and mentally healthy, women who exercise agency and dare reject sub-standard men are meanie psychos.

[DixonHur 11,296]

7 hours ago, Incredulity said:

The alcohol/consent topic has been prevalent for quite a long time.  I recall it being pretty prominent in the first year welcome to campus seminars/classes that everyone goes through.  I certainly would believe its been even more emphasized recently.

@Incredulity when were you at Texas?  I don't remember going through any campus seminars/classes my freshman year (89).

But there's also a chance that I was either too drunk or stoned to remember.