Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

According to my old girlfriend who worked for Manpower, lots of dudes whose girlfriends/wives kicked them off the couch and drove them down to Manpower.

See right there. A smart guy would never let himself be kicked off a perfectly good sofa or such like.

[RDCanecutter 26859]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

See right there. A smart guy would never let himself be kicked off a perfectly good sofa or such like.

These guys were obviously the dogs, not the wolves. Old girlfriend would assign twice as many as she needed for each job, because half would show.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19280]

15 hours ago, Orca of Peace said:

 

what is so radical about any of this?   I don't agree with gun control or PR statehood, but all are mainstream Dem items. 

I have issues with Medicare for all (Medicare sucks), A federal jobs guarantee, and Higher Education for All (not everyone is meant to go to college.  There absolutely should be a way to succeed if you have vocational training.  I feel like people leave that out).  

I support restoring Glass Steagall and Clean Campaign Finance.  

Most of the rest of it, I am pretty much neutral on.

[Orca of Peace 109]

4 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I have issues with Medicare for all (Medicare sucks), A federal jobs guarantee, and Higher Education for All (not everyone is meant to go to college.  There absolutely should be a way to succeed if you have vocational training.  I feel like people leave that out).  

I support restoring Glass Steagall and Clean Campaign Finance.  

Most of the rest of it, I am pretty much neutral on.

college is overrated these days and much too expensive. A 2 year IT course or vocational training in any subject at local colleges would be much more efficient and productive.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I have issues with Medicare for all (Medicare sucks), A federal jobs guarantee, and Higher Education for All (not everyone is meant to go to college.  There absolutely should be a way to succeed if you have vocational training.  I feel like people leave that out).  

I support restoring Glass Steagall and Clean Campaign Finance.  

Most of the rest of it, I am pretty much neutral on.

Yep medicare does suck, but it's what's coming.

I'd support funds for people entering bona fide trade schools in a heart beat.

Federally guaranteed jobs ?  That would need some explaining to me. We seem to have that already. Once you're hired it's damned hard to get fired.

[David Dennison 19444]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yep medicare does suck, but it's what's coming.

I'd support funds for people entering bona fide trade schools in a heart beat.

Federally guaranteed jobs ?  That would need some explaining to me. We seem to have that already. Once you're hired it's damned hard to get fired.

Medicare sucks? You might want to tell the people who are on it because they love it.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19280]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yep medicare does suck, but it's what's coming.

I'd support funds for people entering bona fide trade schools in a heart beat.

Federally guaranteed jobs ?  That would need some explaining to me. We seem to have that already. Once you're hired it's damned hard to get fired.

I think the job guarantee is that if you want a job, and cannot find one, the government will provide one for you.  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

college is overrated these days and much too expensive. A 2 year IT course or vocational training in any subject at local colleges would be much more efficient and productive.

That's not going to do a lot of good for Fraternity and sorority dues....  

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19280]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Medicare sucks? You might want to tell the people who are on it because they love it.

My parents are both on medicare, and they miss the days when they were on private insurance.  But keep telling yourself that.  I guess it is better than nothing.

[David Dennison 19444]

5 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

college is overrated these days and much too expensive. A 2 year IT course or vocational training in any subject at local colleges would be much more efficient and productive.

For thee, but not for me, is how I read this.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I think the job guarantee is that if you want a job, and cannot find one, the government will provide one for you.  

Yeah... no.  I'm for specific time  projects that gear up for more employment, but the public sector is bigger than it should be now. No need to add more to that welfare role.

[David Dennison 19444]

3 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

My parents are both on medicare, and they miss the days when they were on private insurance.  But keep telling yourself that.  I guess it is better than nothing.

My mother is on Medicare and she thinks its great. Most people on Medicare do. It's much more popular than private insurance. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

For thee, but not for me, is how I read this.

 

You would read it wrong.  No surprise there.

[Huckleberry 34412]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

For thee, but not for me, is how I read this.

 

Poster is a doofus but that's a terrible way to read that. Why should an 18-year-old that knows he wants to be an HVAC guy and eventually run his own business run up 4 years of debt at a university? What benefit is there for anyone in that situation?

[David Dennison 19444]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You would read it wrong.  No surprise there.

So everyone here would be willing to give up their bachelor's degree for two year associates degrees or a vocational certificate.

Yeah, I'm not buying that.

[RDCanecutter 26859]

I'ma callin' it now: Our present college system now is going to go the way monasteries did 200 years ago.

[Orca of Peace 109]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Poster is a doofus but that's a terrible way to read that. Why should an 18-year-old that knows he wants to be an HVAC guy and eventually run his own business run up 4 years of debt at a university? What benefit is there for anyone in that situation?

so you agree with me? You should, i'm right on everything. 

College is much too expensive now with cost/benefit out of order. If someone wants to be an IT pro, best to have a local hometown college do the trick and no need to spend all the time to enroll at UT or A&M when the local Abilene college has the same software and a respectable staff. You live at home, don't have 80k in debt and get out at 20 instead of 22. Jobs can be local or in the big cities. The recruiters will come to you. 

Edited July 30, 2018 by Orca of Peace

[bad_teammate 13485]

9 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Poster is a doofus but that's a terrible way to read that. Why should an 18-year-old that knows he wants to be an HVAC guy and eventually run his own business run up 4 years of debt at a university? What benefit is there for anyone in that situation?

He shouldn't. He should be able to go, for free, to a 4-year university and explore his broad range of opportunities because maybe he doesn't actually want to be an HVAC guy for his entire life. Maybe there are different things available to him that he would be better at and would make him happier and more successful. Or, if he knows he wants to be an HVAC guy now, he should be able to go, for free, to get a 2-year professional certification to be an HVAC guy and then have the opportunity to do the 4-year route later if he wants something new.

But we're focusing on the wrong aspect.

It has been drilled into kids' heads for decades and decades that the only way to be financially secure and comfortable is to get the 4-year. It's the only path they see. Remove the economic anxiety behind living life as an adult and you'll naturally reduce enrollment at 4-year institutions because kids will no longer feel like they have to do it.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Democratic socialism would be achieved by raising the tax rates on the lower and middle classes to pay for all the freebies.  It's simple fucking math.  Dem Socialists have high income tax rates on everyone, not just the rich.  The rich don't have enough to pay for all this shit.

[Huckleberry 34412]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

He shouldn't. He should be able to go, for free, to a 4-year university and explore his broad range of opportunities because maybe he doesn't actually want to be an HVAC guy for his entire life. Maybe there are different things available to him that he would be better at and would make him happier and more successful. Or, if he knows he wants to be an HVAC guy now, he should be able to go, for free, to get a 2-year professional certification to be an HVAC guy and then have the opportunity to do the 4-year route later if he wants something new.

But we're focusing on the wrong aspect.

It has been drilled into kids' heads for decades and decades that the only way to be financially secure and comfortable is to get the 4-year. It's the only path they see. Remove the economic anxiety behind living life as an adult and you'll naturally reduce enrollment at 4-year institutions because kids will no longer feel like they have to do it.

That is breathtakingly naive. You think making 4-year tuition free is going to reduce enrollment at 4-year institutions. Absurd.

What would really happen is a boatload of 4-year institutions would pop up, including The University of HVAC with their 4-year Bachelor of Science degree in HVAC Technology. Plus, of course, their Master's and Ph.D. programs in advanced HVAC theory.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Huckleberry

[Incredulity 11862]

Giving people cash money(UBI) isn't going to "remove the economic anxiety".  

 

[Orca of Peace 109]

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

He shouldn't. He should be able to go, for free, to a 4-year university and explore his broad range of opportunities because maybe he doesn't actually want to be an HVAC guy for his entire life. Maybe there are different things available to him that he would be better at and would make him happier and more successful. Or, if he knows he wants to be an HVAC guy now, he should be able to go, for free, to get a 2-year professional certification to be an HVAC guy and then have the opportunity to do the 4-year route later if he wants something new.

But we're focusing on the wrong aspect.

It has been drilled into kids' heads for decades and decades that the only way to be financially secure and comfortable is to get the 4-year. It's the only path they see. Remove the economic anxiety behind living life as an adult and you'll naturally reduce enrollment at 4-year institutions because kids will no longer feel like they have to do it.

what is needed is a 2-4 year addendum to high school, owned by the government locally. Hey, that sounds like my local Community College which is financed by my property taxes. Students pay tuition though and the cost/benefit is much better than a 4 year $80k place. 

[RDCanecutter 26859]

Until we staff them with something other than humans, schools are going to game any system we give them to extract max $.

[bad_teammate 13485]

3 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

what is needed is a 2-4 year addendum to high school, owned by the government locally. Hey, that sounds like my local Community College which is financed by my property taxes. Students pay tuition though and the cost/benefit is much better than a 4 year $80k place. 

Why would it be $80k/yr?

8 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

That is breathtakingly naive. You think making 4-year tuition free is going to reduce enrollment at 4-year institutions. Absurd.

What would really happen is a boatload of 4-year institutions would pop up, including The University of HVAC with their 4-year Bachelor of Science degree in HVAC Technology. Plus, of course, their Master's and Ph.D. programs in advanced HVAC theory.

And people would just go for fun and put off actually working and making money... why? Why would I go 4+ years to be an HVAC guy when only 2 years gets me the same paycheck? I would want to start earning more quickly.

And the regulatory government agencies in charge of funding higher ed would not be able to notice obvious money grabs? Accreditation is not a thing anymore? Talk about fucking naive.

[Grandioso 2592]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

The rich don't have enough to pay for all this shit.

Americans, poor and rich alike, spend enough on their pets each year to feed the entire planet. You underestimate the rich.

[Orca of Peace 109]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Why would it be $80k/yr?

And people would just go for fun and put off actually working and making money... why? Why would I go 4+ years to be an HVAC guy when only 2 years gets me the same paycheck? I would want to start earning more quickly.

And the regulatory government agencies in charge of funding higher ed would not be able to notice obvious money grabs? Accreditation is not a thing anymore? Talk about fucking naive.

isn't the going rate at UT $80k/ 4yrs, or more now?

[Incredulity 11862]

Quote

And people would just go for fun and put off actually working and making money... why? Why would I go 4+ years to be an HVAC guy when only 2 years gets me the same paycheck? I would want to start earning more quickly.

Why do people start taking drugs?.....  cheat on their wife?....drink on lunch break?.....cheat on their taxes?.....

[bad_teammate 13485]

2 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

isn't the going rate at UT $80k/ 4yrs, or more now?

It depends on what you're including in that #.

[Guest]

Yes, $80k is a good ballpark figure for UT, aggy, Tech, etc.  If you live on campus and take a full load.

 

Not looking to debate cost savings.

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

I think she should move to Austin because she’s exactly what Austin deserves. 

[RandomIdoit 739]

15 minutes ago, Orca of Peace said:

what is needed is a 2-4 year addendum to high school, owned by the government locally. Hey, that sounds like my local Community College which is financed by my property taxes. Students pay tuition though and the cost/benefit is much better than a 4 year $80k place. 

And if a student is poor and has little or no EFC, they can get financial aid. This year it's $5920 which is more than enough for community college and books.

[bad_teammate 13485]

There's a LOT of talking past when it comes to discussions of free college.

One of the disingenuous approaches for critics of it is to look at the most glaring examples of existing economic inefficiencies in higher ed and say, "Oh, so we'll just publicly fund that?" without bothering to think about why those inefficiencies even exist or, honestly, why kids continue education past 12th grade and how a new approach would meet those needs.

If you want to remove the push for an increasing number of kids to get into a not-increasing number of universities, ask yourself why that trend happened. If you want to avoid publicly funding the rapid cost of tuition and living expenses, ask yourself why that trend happened. Don't just assume it's natural and will just continue naturally forever.

When slorch says, "Not looking to debate cost savings." he's saying the quiet part loud. The reality is that these programs are massively efficient economically. The opposition to them isn't that they are economically inefficient, but that they threaten the stratified economic order.

[Huckleberry 34412]

26 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Why would it be $80k/yr?

And people would just go for fun and put off actually working and making money... why? Why would I go 4+ years to be an HVAC guy when only 2 years gets me the same paycheck? I would want to start earning more quickly.

And the regulatory government agencies in charge of funding higher ed would not be able to notice obvious money grabs? Accreditation is not a thing anymore? Talk about fucking naive.

For the exact same reasons you cited in your argument. They are brainwashed into thinking having a 4-year degree is better than not having one regardless of specifics.

And do you not realize how much money the federal government is handing out in loans and grants to for-profit and online universities right now?

[seven 1368]

How many of you on the surl went to vocational/trade school? Or, if you're an old, how many of you are pushing your kids or grandkids into them?

[Anastasis 23706]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

My mother is on Medicare and she thinks its great. Most people on Medicare do. It's much more popular than private insurance. 

I think that we have already had this discussion in the past, but when it comes to Medicare, a private insurance implementation (MAPD) ranks higher in satisfaction than traditional Medicare FFS. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[bad_teammate 13485]

36 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

For the exact same reasons you cited in your argument. They are brainwashed into thinking having a 4-year degree is better than not having one regardless of specifics.

And how did that message (4-year degree is necessary) come into being? It wasn't always the message. What changed?

As Dennison is absolutely correct to point out, far too much of the "you don't need to go to college!" argument is "for me, but not for thee". People who benefited from cheaper education and better job opportunities (the old) chiding the young without giving them ANY hope aside from the promise of more work in order to receive less comfort and security.

"Stop wanting what I got! Eat your fucking beans and like them!"

Quote

And do you not realize how much money the federal government is handing out in loans and grants to for-profit and online universities right now?

Yes, a ton of money is wasted in seeking to pull profit from educational institutions. You're right.

[zork 629]

2 hours ago, Grandioso said:

 

I assume you are an old white man. When you’re dead, this gal will be middle aged at most. We will see whose ideology and principles are on the way out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Trillions and Trillions of medicare dollars later I suppose?

[Brisketexan 106698]

17 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

And how did that message (4-year degree is necessary) come into being? It wasn't always the message. What changed?

As Dennison is absolutely correct to point out, far too much of the "you don't need to go to college!" argument is "for me, but not for thee". People who benefited from cheaper education and better job opportunities (the old) chiding the young without giving them ANY hope aside from the promise of more work in order to receive less comfort and security.

"Stop wanting what I got! Eat your fucking beans and like them!"

Yes, a ton of money is wasted in seeking to pull profit from educational institutions. You're right.

Cap those grants and loans, and you'll see a market grow that can capitalize on those lower amounts....and schools that depend on "free loan money"....well, things won't go so well for them.

The bigger problem is state universities that used to be affordable no longer are.  E.g., UT -- 30 years ago, you could put yourself through by working 20 hours a week.  Now, it would take working 50 hours a week (so, impossible).

BUT....."lesser" state universities (see Sam Houston State) -- annual tuition, fees, and books come in at under $10k.  All-in (dorm and meal plan), around $18k.  There ARE relatively affordable higher-ed options out there (setting aside community colleges, of which I have ALWAYS been a big fan, particularly for first-generation college students).  You can go to Sam Houston, live on campus, work 20 hours a week and full time in the summer, take out loans for the remainder, and graduate with under $40k in debt.  That's not a bad situation.

What would help is a good primer on higher ed options for students (sure, maybe one exists out there, but a simple outline of the options and likely costs, to help decisionmaking, would be an excellent resource).

Maybe I'm a "blend" guy.  I very much think that there should be public higher ed options out there that are accessible to pretty much everyone (you know, the way state schools were 30-50 years ago, particularly when you add in community colleges).  Then there should be other options (private, maybe even state flagship schools) that cost more.  You should be eligible for aid/loans consistent with what you'd get for a lower-tier school, but not the full ride (unless, of course, that school WANTS to give you a bigger scholarship -- more power to them).  And maybe that becomes a generational thing.  Generation 1 gets a degree, earns decent money...enough to send generation 2 to a higher tier of school, if they wish.

But I very much believe that there need to be real, affordable (and in some cases, free) post-high-school educational paths in this country.  it's in our financial and ethical best interests to have that.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Brisketexan

[babysdaddy 2731]

23 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Is she really that big of a left darling that she is campaigning in Michigan even though she's running for  NY House seat?  Does she give Abdul that big of a bump?

[Brisketexan 106698]

4 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

Is she really that big of a left darling that she is campaigning in Michigan even though she's running for  NY House seat?  Does she give Abdul that big of a bump?

I imagine that depends on the district.

In some districts, having a passionate left-end politician will energize the folks they want to come out and vote.  In others, it wouldn't, it might even backfire.  Same as having Dan Patrick endorse/oppose a GOP candidate in certain districts in Texas works.  Some districts, he's a plus, in others, he's not.

[Hornius Emeritus 12786]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

My parents are both on medicare, and they miss the days when they were on private insurance.  But keep telling yourself that.  I guess it is better than nothing.

 

What is preventing them from getting private insurance?

[bad_teammate 13485]

If a state university is not affordable for everyone then it is nothing more than a taxpayer-subsidized club for the children of the wealthy. I am not so radical that I want to advocate eliminating all institutions of private education (though I sympathize with those who do), but the idea of the taxes of the poor going towards a rich kids' country club "public" university absolutely disgusts me.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

9 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

Is she really that big of a left darling that she is campaigning in Michigan even though she's running for  NY House seat?  Does she give Abdul that big of a bump?

She’s leading a nationwide movement.  This is why the right is clutching their pearls. 

[this 107]

18 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

If a state university is not affordable for everyone then it is nothing more than a taxpayer-subsidized club for the children of the wealthy. I am not so radical that I want to advocate eliminating all institutions of private education (though I sympathize with those who do), but the idea of the taxes of the poor going towards a rich kids' country club "public" university absolutely disgusts me.

Bottom 50% accounts for under 3% of all federal income tax revenue generated. Maybe even less. Poor(to me) would be the bottom 20th percentile, they account for absolutely NOTHING in federal income taxes. 

 

[Brisketexan 106698]

4 minutes ago, this said:

Bottom 50% accounts for under 3% of all federal income tax revenue generated. Maybe even less. Poor(to me) would be the bottom 20th percentile, they account for absolutely NOTHING in federal income taxes. 

 

State universities (Texas) aren't funded by federal income taxes.  They are state funded (well, they USED to be).  And state taxes, in Texas, are paid by everyone -- sales tax, property tax (either directly or indirectly, everyone who lives somewhere pays it).

I'd like to see more state funding of public universities, but that's a tangent.

[Huckleberry 34412]

6 minutes ago, this said:

Bottom 50% accounts for under 3% of all federal income tax revenue generated. Maybe even less. Poor(to me) would be the bottom 20th percentile, they account for absolutely NOTHING in federal income taxes. 

 

That seems really relevant for a statement regarding State public universities.

Oh wait, no it doesn't. Not at all.

Dammit, too slow.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Huckleberry

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

She’s leading a nationwide movement.  This is why the right is clutching their pearls. 

HaHa.

so she's a fidget spinner, you say?

 

So scary...

[Huckleberry 34412]

31 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

If a state university is not affordable for everyone then it is nothing more than a taxpayer-subsidized club for the children of the wealthy. I am not so radical that I want to advocate eliminating all institutions of private education (though I sympathize with those who do), but the idea of the taxes of the poor going towards a rich kids' country club "public" university absolutely disgusts me.

I agree with this point, and very strongly in fact. That's why I believe that State university grants should be very heavily based on socioeconomic status of the applicant. I think using family history as an additional criterion is also a good idea, i.e., if you're the first in your family to attend a certain level of higher education then you should receive additional assistance.

I completely disagree that making 4-year universities free for everyone is going to help the problem long term. Within a few decades there would simply be a massive increase in the number of college graduates to the point where having a degree is a lot less meaningful than it is now (and it's already becoming less and less meaningful every year).

Upward social mobility is critical to society, so enabling that is a noble goal. But when your plan moves everybody up at the same time then you aren't achieving that goal.