Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[Anastasis 23469]

13 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Our incompetent government created the biggest superpower the world has ever seen. 

There’s no way they can handle health care. 

And in the process of creating the worlds greatest superpower we created an environment that established, enriched, and entrenched a massive military industrial complex that now arguably holds more influence over our foreign policy than any of our elected officials. 

In America, every time the government has gotten more involved in healthcare, prices have gone up. Every single time. Medicare, part d, aca you name it. But maybe next time will be different. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

And not drive on the roads.

And not call the police.

And not call the fire department.

And not call an ambulance.

And not... actually... call anyone because the waves are owned by the public and the phone and power lines are on public ground.

And... you're really dumb.

I’m saying in my perfect world you could pick and choose and “pay per drink”. The government is basically the DirectTV model of packaging a bunch of hallmark channels and stuff you never watch when all you want is three or four channels (services). If you could “open enrollment” every year and pick what you want to pay from the government and in effect cut the cord, that would be awesome in my ideal world. You disagree though so I’m dumb. Tell me about how Andrew Jackson felt about healthcare!!

Edited November 15, 2018 by Guest

[Brisketexan 105122]

15 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

There are problems with both ends of the spectrum. Government is going to be inefficient relative to private enterprise because their is little to no impetus for Government to improve on a good or service. Private enterprise may be more efficient in most things, but you pay for that efficiency with cost (ie profit).

I think in MOST things, private enterprise can do better because of innovation/ lack of red tape. HOWEVER I believe we are past the tipping point on healthcare. We don't need "innovations" in insurance.We need cheap and effective.

Strong post.  Bottom line, healthcare has a lot of aspects that make it like a commodity (not ALL aspects, but many).  It should be treated, in part, as such.  We don't need 100 different creative approaches on how to treat and pay for xrays and setting a broken leg.

12 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I’m saying I prefer to not pay into things the government wants to make compulsory though I realize that’s just a radical idea of utopia. An easy math example is I opt out of ISD to home school my kids I’d like to not have to pay for that, as an example.

The only service I see overwhelming value is the military and that’s what I tell myself, basically pay taxes to protect from being killed by other countries who would if we didn’t have one.

As for the school party, you really don't get it at all, do you?  You don't pay taxes to educate YOUR kids. You pay taxes to educate ALL kids.  That way, every kid is 1) MORE likely to be a contributing, net benefit to the economy,  and 2) is LESS likely to end up a loser who steals your shit and goes to prison.  There's a COLLECTIVE benefit to ALL of us to educate all kids.  Yes, I even want YOUR kids to be educated.  Because I don't want them to be a drag on OUR economy, and take up place in OUR prisons.

And as to the second bold, you're missing a shitload of things that provide collective benefit.  For example, do you want to know the element of public service that is responsible for saving more lives than all of our military, fire, and police combined (and yeah, you skipped fire and police in your analysis, too).  It's clean water and sewer utilities.  Having the massive supply of fresh, clean, drinking water, available at the turn of a handle, AND the ability to remove contaminated shit water from your house with a single flush, is the most important life-saving measure in human history.  And almost all of that infrastructure, from the reservoirs to the pipes to the treatment plants is....government operated.

What you're demonstrating is that most people don't have the first fucking clue what government really does.  You think it's the exciting shit that people bitch about, like funding PBS.  Bullshit.  99% of what government does is boring and mundane shit....that makes the basics of civilization possible.

 

EDIT: I realized I just called funding PBS "exciting."  Jesus, I'm a fucking old fart, ain't I?

Edited November 15, 2018 by Brisketexan

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You get to vote for the morons who run the DMV. And you know this. You're either outright stupid or being fatuous. The problem with the DMV isn't the people working there (they are the exact same humans working in private industry), it's the larger policy decisions that the DMV office is made to accommodate.

But government rocks!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

In America, every time the government has gotten more involved in healthcare, prices have gone up. Every single time. Medicare, part d, aca you name it. But maybe next time will be different. 

This is my point when I say I don’t believe it is a net benefit. And, as I posted, it’s the same posters up in arms that companies didn’t doll out all the money they saved from tax cuts who think that companies now will say hey let me pass my savings in to you! It won’t happen.

i guess I’m just surprised so many people have love for our government and confidence in its ability in 2019. But hey, 50 years ago we put a man on the moon!!!

[Brisketexan 105122]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

In America, every time the government has gotten more involved in healthcare, prices have gone up. Every single time. Medicare, part d, aca you name it. But maybe next time will be different. 

That's because "more involved" is half-assed.

Every time my wife tries to get "more involved" in what I'm cooking, it complicates the shit out of our kitchen.

Every time I try to get "more involved" in her baking, it complicates the shit out of our kitchen.

One or the other.  Not both.  And I think we've seen pretty clearly that unfettered control of healthcare by private insurers alone is a recipe for assfuckery.  We have also seen -- in country, after country, after country - that single payer healthcare delivers equal or better results for lower costs.  I don't know why people are so intent on excluding the data point of EVERY OTHER WESTERN NATION when they talk about how "the government will just fuck shit up."

[wildcat09 29353]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

And not drive on the roads.

And not call the police.

And not call the fire department.

And not call an ambulance.

And not... actually... call anyone because the waves are owned by the public and the phone and power lines are on public ground.

And... you're really dumb.

And not sue your employer when they refuse to pay you, and not sue the insurance company when they refuse to pay your claim, etc.

[Guest]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

That's because "more involved" is half-assed.

Every time my wife tries to get "more involved" in what I'm cooking, it complicates the shit out of our kitchen.

Every time I try to get "more involved" in her baking, it complicates the shit out of our kitchen.

One or the other.  Not both.  And I think we've seen pretty clearly that unfettered control of healthcare by private insurers alone is a recipe for assfuckery.  We have also seen -- in country, after country, after country - that single payer healthcare delivers equal or better results for lower costs.  I don't know why people are so intent on excluding the data point of EVERY OTHER WESTERN NATION when they talk about how "the government will just fuck shit up."

I think one of the reasons is because America is uniquely made up and 300+ mm large. The same argument you hear about how Nordic countries are homogenous and small etc etc. I don’t have an opinion on it, just saying I think that’s the argument there...

[GSU&UT 1798]

Every time the government has not gotten involved in healthcare, the prices have gone up. Where did the fallacy that the ACA drove up costs come from when costs were ALREADY rising before its implementation?

[bad_teammate 13195]

Just now, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I’m saying in my perfect world you could pick and choose and “pay per drink”. The government is basically the DirectTV model of packaging a bunch of hallmark channels and stuff you never watch when all you want is three or four channels (services). If you could “open enrollment” everywhere and pick what you want to pay from the government and in effect cut the cord, that would be awesome in my ideal world. You disagree though so I’m dumb. Tell me about how Andrew Jackson felt about healthcare!!

It's not my disagreement that makes your position idiotic, it's your position itself.

You even spell it out in your DirecTV model comparison, but you're too dumb to understand your own metaphor. The only reason the Hallmark channel can be made available is that the costs are shared. Same for ESPN, etc... If it was purely a'la carte, the vast majority of all of these channels would disappear. You get ESPN because grandma Millie pays for it and never watches it. She gets Hallmark because you pay for it and never watch it. Without the security of that arrangement, those channels cannot operate. Neither can exist without the subsidy.

Without the predictability of costs and payment assured by collective burden, enterprises like the police, military, and schools could not operate.

This isn't even 101 stuff, this is K-12 stuff.

Quote

This is my point when I say I don’t believe it is a net benefit.

Your beliefs don't matter. Facts don't care about your feelings.

Quote

i guess I’m just surprised so many people have love for our government and confidence in its ability in 2019. But hey, 50 years ago we put a man on the moon!!!

Pretty much every vital function in your life is guaranteed, secured, and/or provided by the government. You have full faith and confidence in the government, you're just too dumb to realize it. You are the embodiment of "Keep your government hands off my Medicare".

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

But government rocks! 

It does a better job at pretty much everything than private industry does. Does it "rock"? At some stuff, it absolutely does.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

You get to vote for the morons who run the DMV. And you know this. You're either outright stupid or being fatuous. The problem with the DMV isn't the people working there (they are the exact same humans working in private industry), it's the larger policy decisions that the DMV office is made to accommodate.

No no they're not, that's a singularly ignorant comment. The wife worked for the Va. State Corporation Commission for about 6 months. She quit after becoming so frustrated at the way they were required to work. They used outdated technology, (faxes, this was 2 years ago). If you were too efficient you got dressed down because you were bucking  the "way they did things".   If you handled too many cases in a day you got a reprimanded because "that's just not the way we do it".    There was no sense of urgency or attempts to work faster or a little harder to get things done quickly and efficiently. 

They got paid whether they did 8 hours work in 2 hours or worked 8 hours and did nothing. THAT is gov't employment in many bureaucracies . You can't get fired unless you supremely fuck up. They have a union. A fucking gov't union. Even FDR said gov't unions are no bueno.

So while private enterprise might be filled with greed, the waste that gov't breeds dawrfs the greed in spades. Without the corporate greed, and drive to make more profit, the gov't wouldn't have the tax base to pay the DMV workers of the country who live off the teet of private industries success in the world of civil service.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Onboard 2.0

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It does a better job at pretty much everything than private industry does. 

 Is this sarcasm?  

[Incredulity 11669]

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

 Is this sarcasm?  

No, he really believes that.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

Just now, Incredulity said:

No, he really believes that.

I get that the government does many things well that the private sector couldn't handle, but damn...

[Incredulity 11669]

10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

No no they're not, that's a singularly ignorant comment. The wife worked for the Va. State Corporation Commission for about 6 months. She quit after becoming so frustrated at the way they were required to work. They used outdated technology, (faxes, this was 2 years ago). If you were too efficient you got dressed down because you were bucking  the "way they did things".   If you handled too many cases in a day you got a reprimanded because "that's just not the way we do it".    There was no sense of urgency or attempts to work faster or a little harder to get things done quickly and efficiently. 

They got paid whether they did 8 hours work in 2 hours or worked 8 hours and did nothing. THAT is gov't employment in many bureaucracies . You can't get fired unless you supremely fuck up. They have a union. A fucking gov't union. Even FDR said gov't unions are no bueno.

So while private enterprise might be filled with greed, the waste that gov't breeds dawrfs the greed in spades, and without the corporate greed and drive to make more profit the gov't wouldn't have the tax base to pay the DMV workers of the country who live off the teet of private industries success in the world of civil service.

Exactly my experience.

Yes, large private AND public organizations get fucked up an inefficient.  The point is there is so much less accountability in government organizations.  

[hayden_horn 11362]

10 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

Every time the government has not gotten involved in healthcare, the prices have gone up. Where did the fallacy that the ACA drove up costs come from when costs were ALREADY rising before its implementation?

sure, this chart is dated, but i'm in a hurry. medicare part d passed in 2003. ACA passed in 2010. that's about as linear of a rate of growth as one could see. 

per the googles, the cost for a family of four annually now? >$28k.

costs are increasing, and it's not because government.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

8 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

 Is this sarcasm?  

The guy thinks DMV workers are typical of private industry employees, of course its not sarcasm.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

Exactly my experience.

Yes, large private AND public organizations get fucked up an inefficient.  The point is there is so much less  no accountability in government organizations.  

It's really this. SEE:  Louis Lerner at the IRS.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

costs are increasing, and it's not because government.

I wonder how much is simply supply/demand. As a country we are getting fatter and less healthy. Spend 5 minutes at Walmart & realize that 99% of these people probably visit a doctor weekly. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

27 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

And in the process of creating the worlds greatest superpower we created an environment that established, enriched, and entrenched a massive military industrial complex that now arguably holds more influence over our foreign policy than any of our elected officials. 

In America, every time the government has gotten more involved in healthcare, prices have gone up. Every single time. Medicare, part d, aca you name it. But maybe next time will be different. 

Imagine if we built schools and hospitals as well as we build tanks and jets.

God forbid we have a health and education industrial complex that all of us waste our tax dollars funding. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Imagine if we built schools and hospitals as well as we build tanks and jets.

God forbid we have a health and education industrial complex that all of us waste our tax dollars funding. 

On this we agree. Fuck the EU. We need to STOP defending the world. 

[bad_teammate 13195]

19 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

In America, every time the government has gotten more involved in healthcare, prices have gone up. Every single time. Medicare, part d, aca you name it. But maybe next time will be different. 

That's because the services increased. That's how economies of scale work. We pay more to get more.

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

 Is this sarcasm?  

No. We collectively trust the most vital aspects of our lives to government.

Both government and private industry serve different purposes, obviously.

Private industry is good at creating consumer products and luxuries, for sure, and through marketing they create a sense of necessity that they then fulfill, creating the impression of indispensability.

When it comes to the execution of actual necessary services, there's no comparison.

[Incredulity 11669]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Imagine if we built schools and hospitals as well as we build tanks and jets.

God forbid we have a health and education industrial complex that all of us waste our tax dollars funding. 

What the fuck are you talking about?  We have an education industrial complex.  

Quote

The United States spent more than $11,000 per elementary student in 2010 and more than $12,000 per high school student. When researchers factored in the cost for programs after high school education such as college or vocational training, the United States spent $15,171 on each young person in the system — more than any other nation covered in the report.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Now do the military numbers 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

On this we agree. Fuck the EU. We need to STOP defending the world. 

Unfortunately as we contract bad players will fill quite potentially fill the void. It's a damned if we do damned if we don't scenario.

[Continental Op 3934]

Yeah...that’s something I don’t get.

We have massive utilization of health care. We have massive costs (see your insurance premiums, see Medicare and Medicaid) paid in a variety of ways. That’s the way it is right now.

Something like “Medicare for all” doesn’t add to those costs. It consolidates them. There may well be lots of other pros and cons, but “how are we gonna pay for it?” should be answered “with the kajilions we’re already spending.”

But why would we want some kind of liberal queer Medicare For All when we already have the totally awesome and efficient system of Not Turning Away Indigents Who Can't Pay From The Emergency Room?

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Unfortunately as we contract bad players will fill quite potentially fill the void. It's a damned if we do damned if we don't scenario.

I get that, but we need to fix our own house first. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I get that, but we need to fix our own house first. 

I get that as well, EURO land needs to handle its own shit, but we've made it east for them not to the last 50+  years.

[bad_teammate 13195]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I get that, but we need to fix our own house first. 

There is so much vagueness in basically everything you say.

[Celery Man 20943]

the thing about free enterprise being best solution for everything is that it is fun to say and it makes you feel smart

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

There is so much vagueness in basically everything you say.

I don't not disagree with some of this.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Celery Man said:

the thing about free enterprise being best solution for everything is that it is fun to say and it makes you feel smart

Aside from the bad grammar of course.....

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I get that, but we need to fix our own house first. 

We need to fix our house first so our military has something worth defending. We also need to get out of our Cold War approach to military hardware spending.  The technological developments are going to leave us with a scrap heap of equipment while our enemies walk all over us on the internet. 

[Stunns38 3460]

SIAP, I didn’t read all the posts.

https://www.facebook.com/1570665226/posts/10214943796379651/

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

We need to fix our house first so our military has something worth defending. We also need to get out of our Cold War approach to military hardware spending.  The technological developments are going to leave us with a scrap heap of equipment while our enemies walk all over us on the internet. 

The AF son might echo a bit of this regarding cyber stuff.  

[Dirk X West 772]

11 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

What the fuck are you talking about?  We have an education industrial complex.  

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/

Is it your belief that a majority of public school students across the US receive something close to this $11-12,000 level of funding (or the 2018 equivalent) per year?

[wildcat09 29353]

I'd love to see whether all the free market champions here would still fly commercial if we just did away with the FAA and airline safety regulations.

[Incredulity 11669]

1 minute ago, Dirk X West said:

Is it your belief that a majority of public school students across the US receive something close to this $11-12,000 level of funding (or the 2018 equivalent) per year?

No, I am sure there is massive waste and inefficiency in the system.

[Dirk X West 772]

Just now, Incredulity said:

No, I am sure there is massive waste and inefficiency in the system.

There is some, but more importantly, some kids get a lot more than that spent on them per year and many more get a lot less.

[Celery Man 20943]

Aside from the bad grammar of course.....

grammar is for pussies

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

I'd love to see whether all the free market champions here would still fly commercial if we just did away with the FAA and airline safety regulations.

Hell no, That's part of what gov't does well. They aren't motivated by profit they're doing what gov't is supposed to do.  

[Incredulity 11669]

Just now, Dirk X West said:

There is some, but more importantly, some kids get a lot more than that spent on them per year and many more get a lot less.

So, that's an argument FOR government run systems?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Celery Man said:

 

grammar is for pussies

 

The wife would bitch slap you, but she's a fucking grammar nazi.

[sheeeit 129]

Probably healthcare deserves its own thread.  It is a complex and important topic.

We should admit to a few right up front if we truly want to have an honest debate about our current system.

First, the absurd notion that the US has "poorer" outcomes than other developed countries.  This is patently false.  Every time someone quotes this it is based on the WHO study from 2000 or so.  The rankings were based on a variety of statistics with the greatest weight put on 1) Life Expectancy 2) Infant Mortality and 3) Total Medical Spend.

For life expectancy, if you remove murder and suicide and car wrecks from the totals for every country- the US ranks first in the world.  Murder, suicide and car wrecks are obviously issues in our society but they have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of our medical care.

Total spend, if you remove elective surgeries/procedures and research dollars our spend per person is about equal with other developed countries.  When Betty gets a boob job (bless her) it lowers our "ranking" in the WHO study, which is crazy.  The US spends more on medical research than the rest of the world combined and, as a result, gets ranked lower by the WHO standard.

Infant mortality, even the WHO in the actual report admitted that the only country that provided realistic data was the US.  Further, the biggest issue with infant mortality is preemies.  Most countries do not even include births that do not reach maturity in the stats.  These countries include many that we are currently compared with including Canada, UK, Sweden, France, Germany etc.  In fact, there are reports from the National Center for Health Statistics and European Perinatal Health Report that use much stricter definitions and, amazingly, the US ranks 1st by their methodology.  Does anyone really think that normal babies born in America have a better chance of dying than other countries?  It is absurd.  It is also a perfect example of the whole WHO report.  A preemie is born in the US with a heart problem.  We will deliver the baby, operate on the heart, monitor the baby in a state of art NICU for months and will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Often the baby does die after all of that and, as a result, the "ranking" of the American medical system goes down because we spent a lot of money and our infant mortality rates went down.  If we would just tell the parents the baby can not make it we would improve our WHO ranking.

Sorry for the long rant, but it is really hard to have a rational debate when we do not use the truth.

I think we should assume that the US has the very best medical system in the world.  Meaning, if you need medical care for whatever reason- accident, illness, rehab etc.- the US is the very best place to get it.

There are, certainly, ways our system can be improved. I am open to ideas where we have more of a national system.  However, only if there are adequate deductibles to keep usage under control and only if funded by a national sales tax.  

Also, the debates between the efficiency of govt versus private are really silly.  There is no question that the private sector is more efficient than the govt.  The private sector has to compete.  

Brisket used the term "commodity" up thread and in some ways he is right.  But if we admit something is a commodity, then no one should/could argue that tremendous competition for profit among the deliverers of said commodity is the absolute best way to keep costs down.  

 

 

 

[Dirk X West 772]

Just now, Incredulity said:

So, that's an argument FOR government run systems?

No, it's an argument for funding school districts more equally.  You may not be aware of this, but there are many public school systems in this country that are excellent.  Not coincidentally, they're usually located in areas where property values are high.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

No, I am sure there is massive waste and inefficiency in the system.

Yes, that money should go into the pockets of people like Betsy Devos and Erik Prince instead of being pumped directly into the economy on things like too many teachers. 

[bad_teammate 13195]

Private industry is good at creating food that kills us and putting it in packages that kids like. It's good at convincing us we need things we don't actually need and then selling that stuff to us.

It's good at making new cars every year that are functionally identical to cars made 40 years ago and convincing us that marginal improvements in ride quality and cabin noise actually matter.

[Pam Cummings 9641]

Gotta love how certain people actively undermine these public systems, then turn around and claim that they "just don't work".

[Incredulity 11669]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Yes, that money should go into the pockets of people like Betsy Devos and Erik Prince instead of being pumped directly into the economy on things like too many teachers. 

Or whatever asshole sold GWB "common core".  That shit is fucked.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Dirk X West said:

No, it's an argument for funding school districts more equally.  You may not be aware of this, but there are many public school systems in this country that are excellent.  Not coincidentally, they're usually located in areas where property values are high.

Yep and that is an issue that needs to be dealt with for damn sure........  I know...... let's bus people...  no wait.....