Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[deadshank 24,651]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I wish conservatives had a version of her in Congress I disagreed with.  

Will Hurd probably comes the closest but he’s not really much of a trail blazer. 

So do you like her ideas or like that her ideas seem fresh?   Serious.  Not a trick question. 

[jimmyjazz 45,546]

53 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

She just thinks all business/capitalism is evil.  

Oh, come on.

[TwiceHorn 31,262]

11 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Oh, come on.

Quote

"Capitalism is an ideology of capital - the most important thing is the concentration of capital and to seek and maximize profit...so to me capitalism is irredeemable," she said.

Maybe not "evil" per se, but I think we will find her frequently if not always blaming business for just about everything.  At times, she will have a valid point, at others, not so much.

Edited March 13, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Enchubben 5,509]

59 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

And there would then be less customers. Sounds like capitalism at work. I approve.

So you are ok with higher utilities costs which disproportionally affect low income individuals?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Just now, deadshank said:

So do you like her ideas or like that her ideas seem fresh?   Serious.  Not a trick question. 

I like that she recognizes the problems that need to be addressed instead of conveniently ignoring them like all our other politicians seem to do. 

I disagree with some of her approaches to solving those problems.  I’m for a more decentralized system of government that acts as a watchdog over markets to ensure a fairer system of capitalism for both the population and the environment. One that prevents too-big-to fail scenarios but provides the infrastructure and rules for healthy competition to facilitate prosperity. 

However, there are a few areas in the economy the private sector is unable to handle on their own in a responsible way to adequately and fairly service the population.  National defense, healthcare, and education come to mind. 

[David Dennison 18,651]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

She just thinks all business/capitalism is evil.  Some of it is, but fucking with the credit markets for social gains is not something we should ever be doing (unless the social gains derive directly from credit policies, e.g. predatory lending).

Your parenthetical is a big no duh to your second sentence and it's exactly why people like AOC are doing this. 

The Great Recession is fresh in their minds.

Edited March 13, 2019 by David Dennison

[Bash Riprock 1,695]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

 

Edited hit job (Poor effort, but not atypical)

 

 

that was edited? no wai!!11!

[Zavala 1,384]

Insanity

 

[David Dennison 18,651]

That is so good.

[David Dennison 18,651]

Just now, longhornmatt said:

What does Wells Fargo lending money on market terms to a corporation for pipeline construction have to do with predatory lending or the Great Recession?

We don’t let banks do business with North Korea or terrorists on the OFAC list, or charge usurious rates to desperate individuals because we find that morally objectionable.  Banks are certainly regulated in ways that are based on discouraging commerce we find immoral, dangerous or offensive.

Do some of you think the mere existence of the oil & gas industry is also so objectionable that we should discourage credit markets from doing business with the industry and impose liability on the lenders for participating in such a horrible business?  

I think the point is to make sure banks like WF practice due diligence before they finance economically productive but socially and environmentally harmful undertakings, something they've proven to be very shitty at in the past.

[jimmyjazz 45,546]

37 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Maybe not "evil" per se, but I think we will find her frequently if not always blaming business for just about everything.  At times, she will have a valid point, at others, not so much.

Slick edit.  At least acknowledge the context of her statements:

Quote

“The most important thing is the concentration of capital and it means that we seek and prioritize profit and the accumulation of money above all else and we seek it at any human and environmental cost. That is what that means. To me that ideology is not sustainable and cannot be redeemed,” the Democrat said Saturday during an interview with Briahna Gray, senior politics editor for the Intercept. ”What we are reckoning with are the consequences of putting profit above everything else in society.”

 

You might disagree that those consequences are actually playing out, but I'd be shocked if you disagreed that such consequences are untenable.

This is what I hate about sound bite media & politics -- even smart people get sucked up in the fury.

AOC has gone on record as a "democratic socialist" who does not think that such a philosophy is fundamentally at odds with being a "capitalist".  Now, you can say she lied when she said that, but you'd look pretty silly parsing one statement of hers as <edited> TRVTH and then ignoring another.

Be better.

Democratic Socialists, Capitalists, cats & dogs living together, cats becoming dogs, dogs becoming cats, etc.

[High Plains Drifter 10,970]

1 hour ago, Enchubben said:

So you are ok with higher utilities costs which disproportionally affect low income individuals?

Well, not to be snarky, but low utility costs also disproportionately affect the poors as well.

About the only way to avoid this would be to have sliding scales for utility costs based on income or wealth, which I'm not ok with, just because such a scheme would be a complete cluster. What I am ok with is a steeply progressive income tax which would offset such disproportionalities (is that even a word?).

[wildcat09 29,224]

1 hour ago, Enchubben said:

So you are ok with higher utilities costs which disproportionally affect low income individuals?

Wild thought here, but what about possible alternatives? If an unavoidable side effect of the oil and gas industry (which is massively subsidized in various ways) is that there are sometimes environmental costs that we as a collective are forced to bear (socialism), maybe there's an alternative out there that is cheaper overall and is currently foreclosed because of the political power that the oil and gas industry has.

 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I wish conservatives had a version of her in Congress I disagreed with.  

Will Hurd probably comes the closest but he’s not really much of a trail blazer. 

Compassion in conservatism was dead before the term "compassionate conservatism" was even coined.  The Tea Party ethos of "I'm getting mine, fuck everyone else, I don't care about them" is a hard sell.  You'd think evangelicals would have some compassion since they are supposed to be Christian, but instead they have been demonstrably worse than even the fake libertarian Tea Party.

Whether you agree with her ideals or not, AOC isn't a bad person, and she speaks directly to the people.  There isn't anyone on the GOP side who does the same anymore.  Instead, you have people like Matt Gaetz who have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Simply terrible people with terrible me-only policy ideas.  Sure, selfish people like Johnny Sack like Gaetz' me-only policies, but even Johnny probably thinks AOC is a better person than Gaetz.

[workswithseed 2,035]

"You'd think evangelicals would have some compassion since they are supposed to be Christian"

See one is forced by government, the other is given out without force through charity. 

[Dahobbs 17,437]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Maybe not "evil" per se, but I think we will find her frequently if not always blaming business for just about everything.  At times, she will have a valid point, at others, not so much.

Jimmy already pointed it out, but she never actually says those words. Countless conservative websites have, in quotation marks, her saying "capitalism is irredeemable" but the actual footage reveals that those quotations are imaginary.  And you don't have to take my word for it (start at 33:20 or so):

 

Her whole point is that segments of our society have come to worship the accumulation of capital at the cost of everything else. The economic principles of capitalism aren't evil. But prioritizing it above everything else, such as democracy and above human rights, is evil. And I agree with her. Capitalism done right is a tool to make society better by efficiently distributing resources where needed. But capitalism shouldn't be the end goal of society. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Dahobbs

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

32 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

"You'd think evangelicals would have some compassion since they are supposed to be Christian"

See one is forced by government, the other is given out without force through charity. 

Evangelicals do neither.

[workswithseed 2,035]

32 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Evangelicals do neither.

Got proof?

[elfenix 34,171]

1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

Well, not to be snarky, but low utility costs also disproportionately affect the poors as well.

About the only way to avoid this would be to have sliding scales for utility costs based on income or wealth, which I'm not ok with, just because such a scheme would be a complete cluster. What I am ok with is a steeply progressive income tax which would offset such disproportionalities (is that even a word?).

my thought is that carbon taxes get rebated out on a per capita basis. 

[housious 468]

1 hour ago, FondrenRoad said:

Evangelicals do neither.

I'm not a big fan of churches, but I constantly see many of them doing good work on their own dime. Everything from feeding the homeless to lending a helping hand after natural disasters. Go and help next time there is a major storm that rips through an area near you. I think you'd be surprised to find that many of those volunteering are from churches. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by housious

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13,546]

1 hour ago, workswithseed said:

"You'd think evangelicals would have some compassion since they are supposed to be Christian"

See one is forced by government, the other is given out without force through charity. 

In a functional democracy it is done because the prevailing sentiment of the voters is that it's the right thing to do. The other it's done under the threat of hellfire, and then begrudgingly when social media pics show you were lying about your mega-church being flooded. Also, you get to go to some eternal Disneyland when you die.

[Dahobbs 17,437]

10 minutes ago, housious said:

I'm not a big fan of churches, but I constantly see many of them doing good work on their own dime. Everything from feeding the homeless to lending a helping hand after natural disasters. Go and help next time there is a major storm that rips through an area near you. I think you'd be surprised to find that many of those volunteering are from churches. 

While I assume his statement was wrong, it wasn't directed at churches in general, but specifically Evangelicals.

[workswithseed 2,035]

8 minutes ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

In a functional democracy it is done because the prevailing sentiment of the voters is that it's the right thing to do. The other it's done under the threat of hellfire, and then begrudgingly when social media pics show you were lying about your mega-church being flooded. Also, you get to go to some eternal Disneyland when you die.

You're not wrong there are very weak people in church clothing.

No, you don't have to give to charity. You can totally just use your money to buy prostitutes and coke, but which one will make you actually happier with yourself?

As you already showed that even with hell as a prospect, it doesnt mean you'll do the good thing, but limiting people's money with taxes, you limit choice.

[Hank Scorpio 17,721]

Ah yes, that classic parable in the Bible, I believe it's in Matthew, where Jesus lectures the disciples about how limiting people's money with taxes limits their choices and then gets the disciples to invest their money in gold coins. 

[David Dennison 18,651]

43 minutes ago, housious said:

I'm not a big fan of churches, but I constantly see many of them doing good work on their own dime. Everything from feeding the homeless to lending a helping hand after natural disasters. Go and help next time there is a major storm that rips through an area near you. I think you'd be surprised to find that many of those volunteering are from churches. 

It's not nearly enough to meet the need. Only the state can handle the scale of an industrialized society's problems. That's why the government wound up being the go to safety net. Non-governmental entities simply cannot handle the burden.

[workswithseed 2,035]

31 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Ah yes, that classic parable in the Bible, I believe it's in Matthew, where Jesus lectures the disciples about how limiting people's money with taxes limits their choices and then gets the disciples to invest their money in gold coins. 

So what you're saying is that its okay that you have to pay for social sucurity, but your freind's little girl who has cancer and you could give money to help her and her family, but government has to get theirs. You have less money, so less choice. 

[Hank Scorpio 17,721]

And lo, Jesus walked through the garden and said to Peter "So what you're saying is that its okay that you have to pay for social sucurity, but your freind's little girl who has cancer and you could give money to help her and her family, but government has to get theirs. You have less money, so less choice." And Peter wept for he knew that he had less choice by paying for social sucurity and Caeser had to get his and yay did he thus have less choice. 

The word of the Lord. 

[GRHorn 105]

7 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I wish conservatives had a version of her in Congress I disagreed with.  

Will Hurd probably comes the closest but he’s not really much of a trail blazer. 

 

4 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

Whether you agree with her ideals or not, AOC isn't a bad person, and she speaks directly to the people.  There isn't anyone on the GOP side who does the same anymore.  Instead, you have people like Matt Gaetz who have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Simply terrible people with terrible me-only policy ideas.  Sure, selfish people like Johnny Sack like Gaetz' me-only policies, but even Johnny probably thinks AOC is a better person than Gaetz.

I’d go with Amash or Massie. 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

3 hours ago, housious said:

I'm not a big fan of churches, but I constantly see many of them doing good work on their own dime. Everything from feeding the homeless to lending a helping hand after natural disasters. Go and help next time there is a major storm that rips through an area near you. I think you'd be surprised to find that many of those volunteering are from churches. 

Not all Christians are evangelical.  There are certainly good Christians and good Christian churches. I was speaking specifically about evangelicals, and evangelical churches. Hell, Osteen was locking people out of his church in Houston when every Presbyterian and Methodist church opened their doors and had members working hard to help people during the hurricane.

You do realize that nearly every politician that holds an elected office is Christian, right?  AOC is Christian even.  Dem politicians are primarily Catholic or mainline Protestant.  Only the GOP is infested with evangelicals who spread fear and hatred.

Edited March 14, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

41 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Not all Christians are evangelical.  There are certainly good Christians and good Christian churches. I was speaking specifically about evangelicals, and evangelical churches. Hell, Osteen was locking people out of his church in Houston when every Presbyterian and Methodist church opened their doors and had members working hard to help people during the hurricane.

You do realize that nearly every politician that holds an elected office is Christian, right?  AOC is Christian even.  Dem politicians are primarily Catholic or mainline Protestant.  Only the GOP is infested with evangelicals who spread fear and hatred.

I don’t consider Osteen an evangelical.  He is a prosperity gospel pimp.  His “ministry” feasts on the poor, mainly minorities.  And those are who goes to his church.  Pretty much the opposite of St Lukes right down the road.  

[jimmyjazz 45,546]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I don’t consider Osteen an evangelical.  He is a prosperity gospel pimp.  His “ministry” feasts on the poor, mainly minorities.  And those are who goes to his church.  Pretty much the opposite of St Lukes right down the road.  

LOL.  The dude suckers a hundred thousand "evangelicals" each week.

You are who you lead.  He's an evangelical, and he's evil.  Maybe we'll all meet in hell.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

LOL.  The dude suckers a hundred thousand "evangelicals" each week.

You are who you lead.  He's an evangelical, and he's evil.  Maybe we'll all meet in hell.

I’d love to know how his congregation votes.  Because I live a mile from there. And see who goes into his church.  It sure as fuck isn’t the GOP base.  And no one I know goes there.

I don’t consider him an evangelical.  SBC is.  Methodists can be.  Same as Lutherans.   Osteen preaches prosperity gospel.  It’s not the same.  

[David Dennison 18,651]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

I’d love to know how his congregation votes.  Because I live a mile from there. And see who goes into his church.  It sure as fuck isn’t the GOP base.  And no one I know goes there.

I don’t consider him an evangelical.  SBC is.  Methodists can be.  Same as Lutherans.   Osteen preaches prosperity gospel.  It’s not the same.  

This is one of your best humble brag posts in quite some time.

[cactusflinthead 27,594]

I know you find it hard to believe, but Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, and Benny Hinn are evangelicals. They absolutely define the GOP base. You might not like that fact, but there is no one except you that would argue differently.

[troph 24,562]

I’d love to know how his congregation votes.  Because I live a mile from there. And see who goes into his church.  It sure as fuck isn’t the GOP base.  And no one I know goes there.
I don’t consider him an evangelical.  SBC is.  Methodists can be.  Same as Lutherans.   Osteen preaches prosperity gospel.  It’s not the same.  

TBN and the televangelists that peach “give me money and God will bless you” types are evangelical hardcores. There is ABSOLUTELY a prosperity component to the broader evangelical movement.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

1 minute ago, troph said:

 

TBN and the televangelists that peach “give me money and God will bless you” types are evangelical hardcores. There is ABSOLUTELY a prosperity component to the broader evangelical movement.

 

That isn’t my experience, so I disagree.  

[troph 24,562]

I know you find it hard to believe, but Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, and Benny Hinn are evangelicals. They absolutely define the GOP base. You might not like that fact, but there is no one except you that would argue differently.

This this this.

I grew up in that crap and yes there are splinters of evangelicals that despise these types but there are others that are hook line and sinker - and they all go to the same church too - and from the vantage point of politics and voting blocks - both are evangelicals.

[troph 24,562]

That isn’t my experience, so I disagree.  

That isn’t my (evangelical) experience so I disagree

[cactusflinthead 27,594]

Quote

 

Lakewood Church pastor Joel Osteen faced a lot of criticism this year when he delayed in opening his church to shelter Hurricane Harvey victims. Despite this, Osteen still ranks third in the list of most influential evangelical leaders in the United States.

The list, which was created by Newsmax, shared the 100 most influential evangelicals in America this year, according to Chron. Billy Graham secured the top spot, with his son Franklin in second place.

Other religious leaders who made it onto the list are Cornerstone Church's John Hagee, The Potter's House's T.D. Jakes, Dallas pastor Robert Jeffress, Chuck Swindoll, Dr. Tony Evans, Trip Lee, Max Lucado, and Beth Moore of Living Proof Ministries.

 

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/americas-most-influential-evangelicals-joel-osteen-ranks-third-after-billy-graham-and-his-son-franklin/119625.htm

Hey, look at that! They even cited a list from your hometown paper! 

F it. Might as well try talking to a fence post.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

12 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/americas-most-influential-evangelicals-joel-osteen-ranks-third-after-billy-graham-and-his-son-franklin/119625.htm

Hey, look at that! They even cited a list from your hometown paper! 

F it. Might as well try talking to a fence post.

That list has Jeremy Lin on it. 

[TwiceHorn 31,262]

5 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Jimmy already pointed it out, but she never actually says those words. Countless conservative websites have, in quotation marks, her saying "capitalism is irredeemable" but the actual footage reveals that those quotations are imaginary.  And you don't have to take my word for it (start at 33:20 or so):

 

Her whole point is that segments of our society have come to worship the accumulation of capital at the cost of everything else. The economic principles of capitalism aren't evil. But prioritizing it above everything else, such as democracy and above human rights, is evil. And I agree with her. Capitalism done right is a tool to make society better by efficiently distributing resources where needed. But capitalism shouldn't be the end goal of society. 

I took the quote from Bloomberg, not Breitbart.  I don't disagree with the general principle that capitalism has run amok, as I initially indicated.  But it's plainly obvious that she's going to blame business wherever possible, including in pretty wrongheaded ways.

[troph 24,562]

That’s a who’s who of evangelical leaders. To be fair to Mr Sack I was in the camp that thought osteen and Copeland were frauds but I was around plenty that disagreed and thought they were great leaders in the movement

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

14 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

I know you find it hard to believe, but Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, and Benny Hinn are evangelicals. They absolutely define the GOP base. You might not like that fact, but there is no one except you that would argue differently.

Defines the GOP base ?  That's a pretty inaccurate statement. They define a part of the GOP base. They do not define what the GOP is.  Sorry that's just incorrect.  I'm part of the GOP base (not registered, but tend to vote republican 75-80% of the time). I'm pretty much atheist, and I come in contact with hundreds of people in the GOP who would never be defined as evangelical.  Some I wouldn't consider religious, and many I'd consider Christian who believe wholeheartedly in separation of church and state.

The fringes always seem to identify both parties because they're both ripe for sound bites, and media coverage.  

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

15 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

I’d love to know how his congregation votes.  Because I live a mile from there. And see who goes into his church.  It sure as fuck isn’t the GOP base.  And no one I know goes there.

I don’t consider him an evangelical.  SBC is.  Methodists can be.  Same as Lutherans.   Osteen preaches prosperity gospel.  It’s not the same.  

Methodists and Lutherans aren't evangelical.  ELCA is evangelical in name only and shares no real commonalities with actual evangelical ministries.  LCMS is closer to evangelical than ELCA is really.

But the primary driver of modern fundamentalist evangelical churches is the cult of personality surrounding the pastor.  It isn't enough to be "born again".  Osteen is easy to pick out due to his large congregation, but church size isn't really what matters. My grandparents go to an EPC church with less than 50 members and the pastor plays every bit the "savior" role.

I also wouldn't say all SBC churches are truly evangelical even though many certainly are.  It is possible to be "born again" without hanging on every word of a hateful shitbag, you know.

[David Dennison 18,651]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Defines the GOP base ?  That's a pretty inaccurate statement. They define a part of the GOP base. They do not define what the GOP is.  Sorry that's just incorrect.  I'm part of the GOP base (not registered, but tend to vote republican 75-80% of the time). I'm pretty much atheist, and I come in contact with hundreds of people in the GOP who would never be defined as evangelical.  Some I wouldn't consider religious, and many I'd consider Christian who believe wholeheartedly in separation of church and state.

The fringes always seem to identify both parties because they're both ripe for sound bites, and media coverage.  

What defines the Republican Party?

[Scooter Monzingo 820]

18 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

LOL.  The dude suckers a hundred thousand "evangelicals" each week.

You are who you lead.  He's an evangelical, and he's evil.  Maybe we'll all meet in hell.

Sadly you’re right. But I have volunteered at a inner city YMCA for over 40 years. And I have see some pretty bad situations that young people find themselves forced to live in. Kids who had no choice in how they got there. And fewer choices going forward. 

Our success rate of getting a kid off the streets and into a stable life environment is also sadly not as good as we would like it to be. But, we still try. And we do ask that a young person believe in something. We don’t care who you put your faith in, but put it in something. Try to follow the Ten Commandments as you go through life. Few people can honestly say they can do that one thing.

Try to resist the temptations that lead to addiction and despair. And whether you attend a brick and mortar church is entirely up to the individuals who participate in our programs. We simply believe that if you can believe in a higher power you can believe in yourself. And you can pray anywhere, at anytime. Ask for the strength to help you find a way out of a bad situation. Maybe it is bullshit, but it does seem to benefit those who commit to it. But it is not a given. It’s hard work that doesn’t always yield success easily. But I’m proud as hell of those who have managed to succeed. 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

Just now, David Dennison said:

What defines the Republican Party?

Its like Jesus' most famous quote:

"I got mine.  Y'all can make it or die on your own.  I don't give a shit."

[Dahobbs 17,437]

8 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I took the quote from Bloomberg, not Breitbart.  I don't disagree with the general principle that capitalism has run amok, as I initially indicated.  But it's plainly obvious that she's going to blame business wherever possible, including in pretty wrongheaded ways.

Again, she didnt say it, I posted the whole video and you will not find that phrase. If Bloomberg reported it as a quote, they didnt do their due diligence. And she specifically said there was nothing wrong with capital, just that we have elevated it beyond its proper standing. She is right. 

[workswithseed 2,035]

3 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

And lo, Jesus walked through the garden and said to Peter "So what you're saying is that its okay that you have to pay for social sucurity, but your freind's little girl who has cancer and you could give money to help her and her family, but government has to get theirs. You have less money, so less choice." And Peter wept for he knew that he had less choice by paying for social sucurity and Caeser had to get his and yay did he thus have less choice. 

The word of the Lord. 

No, actually. Would you be okay to be taxed 90% to pay for everyone else's healthcare? Why or why not? If you're here to troll then go ahead, but actually answer.

[David Dennison 18,651]

2 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

No, actually. Would you be okay to be taxed 90% to pay for everyone else's healthcare? Why or why not? If you're here to troll then go ahead, but actually answer.

Do we need to go over marginal tax rates again?