Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[Thetexashammer 1062]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

"I mean, they're not even gas CHAMBERS.  A "chamber" is a "large room used for formal or public events."   And these gassings are very informal, they aren't even on a regular schedule, we just do them when we need to get rid of some undesirables.  Look it up and do your homework before you say these things.Why do you side with [jews, brown people, whatever] over your own citizens and veterans?  Patriots like us are SICK of people like you!"

"No, the jews are NOT being put in "cattle cars."  They are now being used for transporting people, so they are passenger cars, by definition.  Words have meaning, libtards!"

So, you're saying the presence or absence of Zyklon B is a mere "reframing of the argument"?

Here's what the future NY Senator actually said. I'll tell you what, I'm pulling for her to win.

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Thetexashammer

[Anastasis 23469]

 

[David Dennison 18856]

2 hours ago, Chrispy said:

It’s hyperbole. Your inability to distinguish between this and reality portends a dreary future filled with sanitariums. Although I have heard that some orderlies will indulge fantasies, so you might be in luck. 

What's hyperbolic about facts?

[Js1 85319]

 

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

17 hours ago, David Dennison said:

People really do hate that darn Obamacare.

you have no idea. Don't forget we are talking about about 7% of the population dealing with it. 

4 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Was the ACA we got the ACA Obama wanted? I'm under the impression that the GOPs blocked single-payer and other approaches that have worked in other Western countries.

Admittedly, I'm not anything like an expert on the issue. I know it's important, but I get bored talking about anything other than the generalities. The main generality are the absurdly high costs that Medicare allows to be charged for goods and services. I presume this is a result of lobbying and graft, but that's all I got.

No- this isn't the full bill that Obama/Dems wanted

Correct- "single payer" is a dirty word and was never going to get passed here. Comparing the US healthcare industry to another country is like comparing apples and a Chevy Malibu they just aren't remotely the same and aside from both being health care they are nothing alike. 

Medicare actually pays shit compared to what the under 65 market pays. Medicare reimbursement rates are a part of why cost of care goes up for the Under 65 crowd.

 

4 hours ago, Gravy Train said:

Probably not and it was far too watered down to become effective, but a noble step in the right direction to reform healthcare costs (and ultimately who's paying for it).  Only the lobbyists won.

 

I deal with the ACA on a daily basis. It's a cluster fuck and bent over mostly true middle class families especially small business owners. That said it absolutely has helped some that needed it and changed a few minor things with regards to health care that was greatly needed. 

All that said they could have done all of the "good things" for a hell of a lot cheaper and without fucking over a pretty large section of truly middle class individuals. 

The problem with the ACA and the actual facts around it is if it doesn't affect you, (not you personally but the 93% of those in the US that have other forms of coverage) you have no idea what the hell you are talking about and that includes about everyone in DC as well. They only know what they are told and most of the time it's the surface level idiotic talking points that offer no substance or info beyond or what they see on cable news.

Like the ACA, anything that comes after it is just putting lipstick on a pig if it doesn't actually address the actual problem in the US which is cost of care. 

  

 

[David Dennison 18856]

2 minutes ago, JimmyHoffa said:

you have no idea. Don't forget we are talking about about 7% of the population dealing with it. 

No- this isn't the full bill that Obama/Dems wanted

Correct- "single payer" is a dirty word and was never going to get passed here. Comparing the US healthcare industry to another country is like comparing apples and a Chevy Malibu they just aren't remotely the same and aside from both being health care they are nothing alike. 

Medicare actually pays shit compared to what the under 65 market pays. Medicare reimbursement rates are a part of why cost of care goes up for the Under 65 crowd.

 

 

I deal with the ACA on a daily basis. It's a cluster fuck and bent over mostly true middle class families especially small business owners. That said it absolutely has helped some that needed it and changed a few minor things with regards to health care that was greatly needed. 

All that said they could have done all of the "good things" for a hell of a lot cheaper and without fucking over a pretty large section of truly middle class individuals. 

The problem with the ACA and the actual facts around it is if it doesn't affect you, (not you personally but the 93% of those in the US that have other forms of coverage) you have no idea what the hell you are talking about and that includes about everyone in DC as well. They only know what they are told and most of the time it's the surface level idiotic talking points that offer no substance or info beyond or what they see on cable news.

Like the ACA, anything that comes after it is just putting lipstick on a pig if it doesn't actually address the actual problem in the US which is cost of care. 

  

 

We're going to get Medicare for All eventually. Whether that looks like traditional Medicare or Medicare Advantage, time will tell. But that's what's coming and the ACA made that possible. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33869]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

We're going to get Medicare for All eventually. Whether that looks like traditional Medicare or Medicare Advantage, time will tell. But that's what's coming and the ACA made that possible. 

hesrightyouknow.gif

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

We're going to get Medicare for All eventually. Whether that looks like traditional Medicare or Medicare Advantage, time will tell. But that's what's coming and the ACA made that possible. 

 

Agree. In some form or another you are correct. I am thinking a stop gap at say $5K-$10K funded by your employer or the Feds and if you want something more you either pay for it or it's given to you on an income scale for those that make under $X. 

Still think it could have been differently to eventually get to the same place but at this point it doesn't really matter. 

[Brisketexan 105113]

1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

So, you're saying the presence or absence of Zyklon B is a mere "reframing of the argument"?

Here's what the future NY Senator actually said. I'll tell you what, I'm pulling for her to win.

 

Got it.  He literally says that requirements for a site being a concentration camp is that the people there get worked to death and/or murdered.  Anything less than that, and nope, they don't count.

The Japanese-Americans interred at camps where they too were not enslaved or murdered look askance at your shenanigans.

Fantastic.  This is definitely the winning approach for the right.  And keep moving those goalposts.  "Concentration camps are places where they use GAS to kill undesirables.  Not places where they are given a lethal injection in a comfortable bed.  Suck it, libtards!"

[David Dennison 18856]

https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

[henrygandorf 29190]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp

yeah, i don't know if you saw the same interview i did, but a woman on cnn last night was literally reading this definition.  sounded eerily familiar.

then she gets accused of doing it for shock-value.  because the definition is the shocking part here.  totally normal behavior.

[Js1 85319]

1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

yeah, i don't know if you saw the same interview i did, but a woman on cnn last night was literally reading this definition.  sounded eerily familiar.

then she gets accused of doing it for shock-value.  because the definition is the shocking part here.  totally normal behavior.

It's not a concentration camp.

And even if it was, it's not like they're dying there.

And even if they are, at least they aren't Jews, so stop calling us Nazis! 

[David Dennison 18856]

3 minutes ago, Js1 said:

It's not a concentration camp.

And even if it was, it's not like they're dying there.

And even if they are, at least they aren't Jews, so stop calling us Nazis! 

Never mind.

Sarcasm meter on the fritz.

Edited June 19, 2019 by David Dennison

[Anastasis 23469]

Apparently dictionaries were not around 4 years ago. 

[David Dennison 18856]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Apparently dictionaries were not around 4 years ago. 

You mean when they were temporarily held and released.

Good point.

[Telegraph_it 3357]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You mean when they were temporarily held and released.

Good point.

So what were they 4 plus years ago? 

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, Telegraph_it said:

So what were they 4 plus years ago? 

Temporary detention facilities for people eventually released for a future trial or deportation. They were not held indefinitely without trial, which is what is going on now.

[wildcat09 29353]

48 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Got it.  He literally says that requirements for a site being a concentration camp is that the people there get worked to death and/or murdered.  Anything less than that, and nope, they don't count.

The Japanese-Americans interred at camps where they too were not enslaved or murdered look askance at your shenanigans.

Fantastic.  This is definitely the winning approach for the right.  And keep moving those goalposts.  "Concentration camps are places where they use GAS to kill undesirables.  Not places where they are given a lethal injection in a comfortable bed.  Suck it, libtards!"

"We're not literally implementing an exact copy of Auschwitz!" is not a good defense but it says a lot that Republicans think it is.

[Js1 85319]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Temporary detention facilities for people eventually released for a future trial or deportation. They were not held indefinitely without trial, which is what is going on now.

The Jews were only held temporarily too.  At least until their dead bodies were thrown in the pile out back or their ashes blown out of the smokestacks. 

[David Dennison 18856]

Just now, Js1 said:

The Jews were only held temporarily too.  At least until their dead bodies were thrown in the pile out back or their ashes blown out of the smokestacks. 

You're on fire. Well done.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Temporary concentration camps for people eventually released for a future trial or deportation. They were not held indefinitely without trial, which is what is going on now.

Fixed. 

[Anastasis 23469]

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Temporary detention facilities for people eventually released for a future trial or deportation. They were not held indefinitely without trial, which is what is going on now.

Nothing I see in the definition shared here says anything about duration of incarceration or due process or any of those things.

So you can either be consistent with application of definitions, or we are left with something like this, which simply reflect partisan perspective and nothing less. 

Concentration camp:

 

Not concentration camp:

[Jiggy-Z 3432]

5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

"We're not literally implementing an exact copy of Auschwitz!" is not a good defense but it says a lot that Republicans think it is.

Oh please, these are not concentration camps.. They are encampments which densely populate or distill, if you will, a certain demographic of immigrant for the purpose of indefinite detainment until the ultimate disposal of their  cases.

[henrygandorf 29190]

i wonder if the children that have already died were aware of their "ultimate disposal" timetable.

[Js1 85319]

30 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You're on fire. Well done.

Just because it's Pride Month doesn't mean you get to call me flaming. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33869]

35 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You're on fire. Well done.

he's a trump steak?

[Pancho 44767]

 

[EMAWesome 101]

59 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Temporary detention facilities for people eventually released for a future trial or deportation. They were not held indefinitely without trial, which is what is going on now.

You seem to be missing a teeny, tiny, little point here.  The Nazis went out looking for the Jews and rounded them up as part of government policy.  The Jews were not illegally entering Germany.  They were trying to find ways to illegally exit Germany.  The American government is not rounding up legal Hispanic-Americans and putting them in these detention centers.  They are putting people WHO ARE TRYING TO ENTER THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY into them.

 

Anyone that thinks these two situations are even the slightest bit comparable to each other has mashed potatoes for brains.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

2 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

You seem to be missing a teeny, tiny, little point here.  The Nazis went out looking for the Jews and rounded them up as part of government policy.  The Jews were not illegally entering Germany.  They were trying to find ways to illegally exit Germany.  The American government is not rounding up legal Hispanic-Americans and putting them in these detention centers.  They are putting people WHO ARE TRYING TO ENTER THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY into them.

 

Anyone that thinks these two situations are even the slightest bit comparable to each other has mashed potatoes for brains.

The refugees in these camps did not enter illegally.   They are legally seeking asylum. 

[elfenix 34237]

If only there were some place that tried out giving homes to homeless people and we could see how that worked out.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5c503844e4b0f43e410ad8b6/amp

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Nothing I see in the definition shared here says anything about duration of incarceration or due process or any of those things.

So you can either be consistent with application of definitions, or we are left with something like this, which simply reflect partisan perspective and nothing less. 

Concentration camp:

 

Not concentration camp:

From the definition link above:

"They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons."

[DigglerontheHoof 21195]

24 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

You seem to be missing a teeny, tiny, little point here.  The Nazis went out looking for the Jews and rounded them up as part of government policy.  The Jews were not illegally entering Germany.  They were trying to find ways to illegally exit Germany.  The American government is not rounding up legal Hispanic-Americans and putting them in these detention centers.  They are putting people WHO ARE TRYING TO ENTER THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY into them.

 

Anyone that thinks these two situations are even the slightest bit comparable to each other has mashed potatoes for brains.

JFC, you're such a twat. 

[RomaVicta 29907]

Shameless Nation

The worst lies are the ones you tell yourself. After years of third-rate sophistry from pustules like EMAWesome, we watch them turn that sorry weapon on themselves and actually believe what they are saying.

Concrete floors, hurricane fencing, constant glare of fluorescent light, and space blankets. It's fucking heaven. I'm guessing that's razor wire stretched out over the fence. Probably armed guards all around. If you're lucky, you get to bed down on your thin pad right next to the porta potty! How convenient!

But, hey! We're not Nazis! WooHoo!

We're too stupid to see that choosing such a standard means that that's the standard you're heading for.

[hobbes2702 13032]

25 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

You seem to be missing a teeny, tiny, little point here.  The Nazis went out looking for the Jews and rounded them up as part of government policy.  The Jews were not illegally entering Germany.  They were trying to find ways to illegally exit Germany.  The American government is not rounding up legal Hispanic-Americans and putting them in these detention centers.  They are putting people WHO ARE TRYING TO ENTER THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY into them.

 

Anyone that thinks these two situations are even the slightest bit comparable to each other has mashed potatoes for brains.

It’s not illegal to claim asylum. But you knew that.

[wildcat09 29353]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

Shameless Nation

The worst lies are the ones you tell yourself. After years of third-rate sophistry from pustules like EMAWesome, we watch them turn that sorry weapon on themselves and actually believe what they are saying.

 Concrete floors, hurricane fencing, constant glare of fluorescent light, and space blankets. It's fucking heaven. I'm guessing that's razor wire stretched out over the fence. Probably armed guards all around. If you're lucky, you get to bed down on your thin pad right next to the porta potty! How convenient!

 But, hey! We're not Nazis! WooHoo!

 We're too stupid to see that choosing such a standard means that that's the standard you're heading for.

They're also showing pictures of the shelters with the most humane conditions, while ignoring the camps and detention centers that look like this:

[RomaVicta 29907]

Are those really in the US? Fuck.

[Anastasis 23469]

13 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

From the definition link above:

"They are also to be distinguished from refugee camps or detention and relocation centres for the temporary accommodation of large numbers of displaced persons."

OK.  So you think that one of those pictures represents a concentration camp, the other does not.  Is that correct?

[Longhorn_Fan68 33869]

41 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

You seem to be missing a teeny, tiny, little point here.  The Nazis went out looking for the Jews and rounded them up as part of government policy.  The Jews were not illegally entering Germany.  They were trying to find ways to illegally exit Germany.  The American government is not rounding up legal Hispanic-Americans and putting them in these detention centers.  They are putting people WHO ARE TRYING TO ENTER THE COUNTRY ILLEGALLY into them.

 

Anyone that thinks these two situations are even the slightest bit comparable to each other has mashed potatoes for brains.

ohhhhhh, I see how we're all wrong now. thanks for clarifying everything. whew, I was scared we were doing something wrong. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

OK.  So you think that one of those pictures represents a concentration camp, the other does not.  Is that correct?

I don't know the details behind each of those specific pictures.   If one depicts temporary shelters for an unanticipated wave of unaccompanied children, then no, it would not be a concentration camp.  If one depicts the systematic internment of asylum seekers outside of the criminal justice system to stop migration from South of the border, then yes, that would be a concentration camp. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26450]

Your position would be better if, in fact, Bozo wasn't right and you weren't a fucking asshole.  Just an observation from another asshole.

He’s right onboard, we’re all in this together

[Anastasis 23469]

5 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

I don't know the details behind each of those specific pictures.   If one depicts temporary shelters for an unanticipated wave of unaccompanied children, then no, it would not be a concentration camp.  If one depicts the systematic internment of asylum seekers outside of the criminal justice system to stop migration from South of the border, then yes, that would be a concentration camp. 

The facilities in both images serve functionally identical roles. The only difference is one was taken in 2014 and the other in 2018.  

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, Anastasis said:

The facilities in both images serve functionally identical roles. The only difference is one was taken in 2014 and the other in 2018.  

Right, and foster care is the same thing as kidnapping because both situations involve housing a child. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Be awesome if some of these Republicans got as upset about someone going around calling journalists enemies of the people, or you know, the “not a concentration camp” problem. 

[Anastasis 23469]

1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

Right, and foster care is the same thing as kidnapping because both situations involve housing a child. 

There is no such meaningful distinction between the facilities in those pictures. The only meaningful distinction being the year in which they were taken. 

Rather than sucking up the bandwidth with loaded political rhetoric about concentration camps, I think that the immediate conversation should focus on the need for appropriately resourced asylum processing, and fixing the issues related to inhumane family separation during that process.  I think that throwing rhetorical bombs around is counterproductive in the near term.  Maybe this is about the long game for AOC though, which is ultimately focused on abolishing ICE.   

[Bozo_Casanova 26450]

Be awesome if some of these Republicans got as upset about someone going around calling journalists enemies of the people, or you know, the “not a concentration camp” problem. 

BoTh SiDes

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Just now, Anastasis said:

There is no such meaningful distinction between the facilities in those pictures. The only meaningful distinction being the year in which they were taken. 

Rather than sucking up the bandwidth with loaded political rhetoric about concentration camps, I think that the immediate conversation should focus on the need for appropriately resourced asylum processing, and fixing the issues related to inhumane family separation during that process.  I think that throwing rhetorical bombs around is counterproductive in the near term.  Maybe this is about the long game for AOC though, which is ultimately focused on abolishing ICE.   

There are several meaningful distinctions between the two situations.   To argue otherwise is just lazy both-sides nonsense.   And comparing the two situations purely on the appearance of the facilities (in two isolated photos, no less) misses the point as much as comparing the homes of a foster parent and kidnapper. 

[atomheartbevo 89656]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Are those really in the US? Fuck.

And many of those people in the photos are Christians.  Or at least Catholics, wait a lot of Catholics like Dems, and many have brown skin, carry on...

Would be funny if somebody on Fox mentioned that the families being separated were mostly Christian.

[atomheartbevo 89656]

AOC is making for a good stalking horse of sorts.  She’s got a lot of a Republican jimmies rustled.  

[Anastasis 23469]

39 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

There are several meaningful distinctions between the two situations. 

Foremost of course being the letter behind the name of the person leading the administration.

1 hour ago, Mojo Hand said:

If one depicts the systematic internment of asylum seekers outside of the criminal justice system to stop migration from South of the border, then yes, that would be a concentration camp. 

The detention of asylum seekers and families, specifically to effect the deterrence of further asylum seekers, is not a new approach for DHS. Given the quote above, I guess we know how to score the ca. 2014 detention centers that were established to deter migration from South of the border via systematic detention of families. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/16/us/homeland-security-chief-opens-largest-immigration-detention-center-in-us.html

Detention Center Presented as Deterrent to Border Crossings

Mr. Johnson tried to leave no doubt that the administration was committed to detaining families. “l believe this is an effective deterrent,” he said.

Many women at Artesia have said they did not expect to be detained if they made it to the United States, Mr. Johnson said. The numbers of people in families detained at the border has dropped to nearly a two-year low, he said.

“Frankly, we want to send a message that our border is not open to illegal migration, and if you come here, you should not expect to simply be released,” Mr. Johnson said.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Anastasis