Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[Brian Fantana 6667]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I mean a nation today should not allow a massive influx. Of course it's not the same scale as the migration trends of the 19th and early 20th c. from Europe.  It's also NOT the same economic reality of that time period. The safety net in place now was not a reality then.  Those people also wanted to assimilate into the American experience in a large % of the time. 

And yes, manual labor is a big part of any functioning society.  Min. wage manual labor will not support a family nor cover the costs of health care today.  So adding more and more of that type of low wage earning, un educated folks is not a gain for a functioning, growing society.

You aren't getting what he's saying. He isn't saying manual labor is a big part of our functioning society, he's saying low-wage immigrant labor is the reason your grocery store trips aren't bankrupting you.

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yep, one more nuh uhhh response.  Piss off.

Fight me.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

You aren't getting what he's saying. He isn't saying manual labor is a big part of our functioning society, he's saying low-wage immigrant labor is the reason your grocery store trips aren't bankrupting you.

Fight me.

I missed nothing, and know what cheap manual labor does just like artificially cheap gas prices.  

Fight you ? Lord please stop you're skeerin' me....

[Brian Fantana 6667]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

I missed nothing, and know what cheap manual labor does just like artificially cheap gas prices.  

Fight you ? Lord please stop you're skeerin' me....

I choose muzzle-loaders at dusk?

[Asithappens 974]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

I choose muzzle-loaders at dusk?

Dusk?

Are you a millennial? 

Dawn, bro. Always fight at dawn.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

I think you're begging the question here.

It should be a gain for a functioning, growing society. 

Why isn't it? 

I'm sorry why would low wage, uneducated citizens be good for a society ?  Meaning a group trapped in a perpetual cycle of poverty. Other than one group taking profiting from the low wage under educated peoples situation.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I choose muzzle-loaders at dusk?

Ohh, muzzle loaders..... I'm in... I expect to be called Mr. Burr. afterwards of course.

[RDCanecutter 26246]

5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I choose muzzle-loaders at dusk?

In the interests of good old-timey Americana, at least go with Bowie knives on a sand bar.

[Asithappens 974]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm sorry why would low wage, uneducated citizens be good for a society ?  Meaning a group trapped in a perpetual cycle of poverty. Other than one group taking profiting from the low wage under educated peoples situation.

One can always (or almost always) get more education. You're arguing (imo) that one's educational level is fixed. 

We need low-wage (or min wage) workers in our economy. 

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33831]

Nm.

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Longhorn_Fan68

[jimmyjazz 45538]

14 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I mean a nation today should not allow a massive influx. Of course it's not the same scale as the migration trends of the 19th and early 20th c. from Europe.  It's also NOT the same economic reality of that time period. The safety net in place now was not a reality then.  Those people also wanted to assimilate into the American experience in a large % of the time. 

And yes, manual labor is a big part of any functioning society.  Min. wage manual labor will not support a family nor cover the costs of health care today.  So adding more and more of that type of low wage earning, un educated folks is not a gain for a functioning, growing society.

So your proposal is essentially to cut off the supply of workers?  THAT'S your recipe for a "functioning, growing society"?

The mind boggles.  See if you can connect the dots here . . . what would happen if the cost of your produce, your plate of pasta, your new house . . . tripled?  How is that going to help our economy?

Jesus Christ, man.  I hope you're on a fishing expedition here.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Asithappens said:

One can always (or almost always) get more education. You're arguing (imo) that one's educational level is fixed. 

We need low-wage (or min wage) workers in our economy. 

 

No not arguing that, but the reality is a huge swath of folks trying to come here have little to no education at all, and getting out of the cycle of poverty is pretty hard. Otherwise we'd be seeing a declining welfare roll instead of stagnant or increasing welfare roles.  Again, we aren't succeeding with actual at risk citizens  currently.

Of course there's a need for low wage jobs, When have I advocate otherwise ?  But, there's a mix of low wage and high wage jobs needed in a functioning, successful society. You can't have a top heavy low wage population. 

[jimmyjazz 45538]

21 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I mean a nation today should not allow a massive influx. Of course it's not the same scale as the migration trends of the 19th and early 20th c. from Europe.

This is also missing the point.  Current border crossings are historically low.

Edited July 11, 2019 by jimmyjazz

[Fozzz 152]

6 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm sorry why would low wage, uneducated citizens be good for a society ?  Meaning a group trapped in a perpetual cycle of poverty. Other than one group taking profiting from the low wage under educated peoples situation.

If they have no use then there will be no demand for their services and hence they will not come here to begin with.  Why do you hate free markets so much?

[Asithappens 974]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

No not arguing that, but the reality is a huge swath of folks trying to come here have little to no education at all, and getting out of the cycle of poverty is pretty hard.

Especially when the Republicans would rather deny a public school elhi education to "illegal" kids. 

This just reeks of so much hypocrisy, imo (not you specifically, but generally). Treat "illegals" like shit, deny them benefits (they do work and pay taxes), try to screw them over when it comes to education (in various ways, one of which was mentioned, also trying to deny them in-state tuition when they do live in-state) and then wring your hands that it's so hard for them to break out of their cycle of poverty.

It's hard, yes, no shit. And it's made harder by imposing these (decidedly, imo, non-Christian) punitive measures. 

But just in economic terms, we need these workers. 

[Fozzz 152]

lol "good for society"  Onboard is a goddamn shitlib pretending to be a conservative.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Asithappens said:

Especially when the Republicans would rather deny a public school elhi education to "illegal" kids. 

This just reeks of so much hypocrisy, imo (not you specifically, but generally). Treat "illegals" like shit, deny them benefits (they do work and pay taxes), try to screw them over when it comes to education (in various ways, one of which was mentioned, also trying to deny them in-state tuition when they do live in-state) and then wring your hands that it's so hard for them to break out of their cycle of poverty.

It's hard, yes, no shit. And it's made harder by imposing these (decidedly, imo, non-Christian) punitive measures. 

But just in economic terms, we need these workers. 

A guest worker visa program is sorely needed. Again though if education were the ticket to success, we'd be seeing lots more actual citizens taking advantage of that path. Far too many are not, and only complete yet another lap in the cycle of poverty.

[GSU&UT 1798]

Reminder, much of the work undocumented immigrants do, especially in agriculture, is work literally no one else will do even when they tried to pay more (obviously didn't pay enough).

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-us-jobs-economy-farm-workers-taxes/

Quote

In 2017 research conducted by the Cornell Farmworker Program, 30 New York dairy farmers told us they turned to undocumented workers because they were unable to find and keep reliable U.S. citizens to do the jobs. That's in part because farm work can be physically demanding, dirty and socially denigrated work. More importantly, it is one the most dangerous occupations in the U.S.

 

[jimmyjazz 45538]

I don't know why I continue to fall for the bait, other than the fact that I'm probably the most gullible fish in this sea, but perhaps the reason more people aren't taking advantage of higher education IS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD HIGHER EDUCATION.

Many colleges & universities are moving towards free online curricula towards certificates of completion, along with tuition assistance, etc.  Let's see how that plays out before we chastise a migrant farmworker for not sending his HS graduate to college at what is probably a minimum cost of $10K per year per student.

Edited July 11, 2019 by jimmyjazz

[elfenix 34169]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

A guest worker visa program is sorely needed. Again though if education were the ticket to success, we'd be seeing lots more actual citizens taking advantage of that path. Far too many are not, and only complete yet another lap in the cycle of poverty.

do the guest workers, assuming they're paying whatever taxes a native would be paying for the same job/pay, get healthcare?

[wildcat09 29213]

1 minute ago, elfenix said:

do the guest workers, assuming they're paying whatever taxes a native would be paying for the same job/pay, get healthcare?

What are you, some sort of communist?

[RomaVicta 29769]

12 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Ya'll know where she falls on the matrix, right?

This represents why I think we white men should be forced to take a ten year time out from running things. 

Hur hur, it's just a joke. Don't be so serious.

First, a high level of wit can justify just about any statement. I've said some truly horrifying things in my life, but I always knew my audience as people who knew me and what I actually stand for. I know better than to broadcast absurdity to the irony deaf.

Of course, this little chart doesn't set a very high mark for wit. It could appear in an email or a silly conversation and get a laugh. But there's always the guy who thinks, "You know, there's a lot of truth to this!" And that idiot tries to apply a light, sexist joke to a real person.

You're cynically framing AOC as hot and crazy. She's not to be taken seriously, but, yea, would. 

Calling you out on it gives you the slick rally point of hey, it's a joke, man! It's just guy stuff. You a humorless fag or something?

I'm not humorless. The chart used in this context is in the same category of using the N word.  Slap on a demeaning label and dismiss out of hand. The angry white man's prerogative. Well, that sucks and it's fucking things up.

It keeps you (specifically you) from any meaningful discourse. You have your mind made up. You thought about it once and once was enough. It's all simple really once you fix a facile world view where you look down on everything.

I have no respect for that.

[retread 2951]

The young guns, as wildcat called them in the other thread, are going to take over whether Nancy likes it or not. They are already driving the conversation. In the end, they will steamroll her on social media.

[Asithappens 974]

1 minute ago, retread said:

The young guns, as wildcat called them in the other thread, are going to take over whether Nancy likes it or not. 

Not so fast, my friend. 

I don't think they will take over. They will make some noise, sure, but take over? I don't see it.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

5 minutes ago, retread said:

The young guns, as wildcat called them in the other thread, are going to take over whether Nancy likes it or not. They are already driving the conversation. In the end, they will steamroll her on social media.

Pelosi knows that but doesn't give a shit because she'll be dead by then.  She just cares about her own power while she's still around. 

[hayden_horn 11360]

5 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Not so fast, my friend. 

I don't think they will take over. They will make some noise, sure, but take over? I don't see it.

this is like boomer executives complaining about millennials.

sorry, their time is coming. pelosi is a fool for thinking she shouldn't ally with the squad. they are the bridge to getting out the youth vote, which the democrats actually need, and who vote in remarkably low numbers historically, though that trend is changing, and it's changing because of the younger leaders in congress.

 

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

6 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Not so fast, my friend. 

I don't think they will take over. They will make some noise, sure, but take over? I don't see it.

Oh they’re going to take over.  It might not be soon but Bernie laid the foundation and Trump accelerated it by being so awful.  The power will shift from money to people eventually.  It always does, sometimes not peacefully. 

[Asithappens 974]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

this is like boomer executives complaining about millennials.

sorry, their time is coming. pelosi is a fool for thinking she shouldn't ally with the squad. they are the bridge to getting out the youth vote, which the democrats actually need, and who vote in remarkably low numbers historically, though that trend is changing, and it's changing because of the younger leaders in congress.

 

 

And when their time has come, do you think they will have sufficient numbers to really change anything? Or do you think that 4 is enough? 

And when their time comes, sometime in the future, do you think their "youthful" ideals will still be there?

The time may/will come for some change, but not the type of change that AOC/Omar are calling for. Imo.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

It’s not just 4.  There are other very progressive democrats in the house.  Those four are most visible because they’re people of color and draw the most attention from right wing media because... POC

[jimmyjazz 45538]

18 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

sorry, their time is coming. pelosi is a fool for thinking she shouldn't ally with the squad. they are the bridge to getting out the youth vote, which the democrats actually need, and who vote in remarkably low numbers historically, though that trend is changing, and it's changing because of the younger leaders in congress.

Pelosi is sorta like the female Joe Biden.  There is a not-insignificant shift in the party support away from "the way we used to do things" and the older leaders just can't accept change.

I honestly don't think there is as big a push among Dems nationally towards what most of us would describe as a truly progressive platform, but the movement is in that direction.  The old guard, if they were capable, would recognize this and accept that change as a cost of doing business, inasmuch as the biggest pressing concerns are (a) getting Trump out of the WH and (b) retaking the Senate while not losing the House.  Unfortunately, the old guard is apparently not capable of seeing (or at least accepting) this reality.

[Dropout 355]

31 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Pelosi is sorta like the female Joe Biden.  There is a not-insignificant shift in the party support away from "the way we used to do things" and the older leaders just can't accept change.

I honestly don't think there is as big a push among Dems nationally towards what most of us would describe as a truly progressive platform, but the movement is in that direction.  The old guard, if they were capable, would recognize this and accept that change as a cost of doing business, inasmuch as the biggest pressing concerns are (a) getting Trump out of the WH and (b) retaking the Senate while not losing the House.  Unfortunately, the old guard is apparently not capable of seeing (or at least accepting) this reality.

The old guard is paid to not accept change.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Some folks need to eat some crow.....

[jimmyjazz 45538]

I'm pretty sure that's a small fraction of the space Amazon was looking at for HQ2.  Not that her point is completely invalid, but it's unlikely that Amazon wouldn't have grown existing NYC footprint regardless of the HQ2 outcome.

[Alvin89 108]

4 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Some folks need to eat some crow.....
 

It sounds like Amazon is just doing an office expansion. Not the same deal they did before and I may be wrong but I don't think the expansion is in her district.

[thrillhammer 683]

5 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

this is like boomer executives complaining about millennials.

sorry, their time is coming. pelosi is a fool for thinking she shouldn't ally with the squad. they are the bridge to getting out the youth vote, which the democrats actually need, and who vote in remarkably low numbers historically, though that trend is changing, and it's changing because of the younger leaders in congress.

 

 

nothing would please me more than if Pelosi, schumer, and McConnell unexpectedly retired and could not come back next session.  they are so old, complacent, and status quo.  the country has passed them by. time for new leadership. 

[Message Board User 12389]

 

The Dems are a complete circus.

For those who don't know, Clay is a person of color.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

Isn't Clay the guy with the inherited seat who got primaried by AOC's group? 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

AOC wasn’t really playing the race card on Pelosi.  She wasn’t calling Pelosi racist.  She was being factually accurate that those four are being singled out because they are people of color.   Pelosi was reacting to the Fox News/RW media obsession with vilifying those four because they are people of color and standing up for themselves.  

Pelosi should know better than anyone that the minorities need to be defended now more than ever and she’s happy to just throw them under the bus to placate the blue dog democrats. 

It’s pathetic 

Edited July 11, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Bama Chick 28596]

He got challenged by someone from the Justice Democrats but he beat her pretty handily.

He and his daddy before him have been in that seat for decades and they’re pretty fucking swampy.

He’s a black man but he’s 100% establishment.

[David Dennison 18646]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

AOC wasn’t really playing the race card on Pelosi.  She wasn’t calling Pelosi racist.  She was being factually accurate that those four are being singled out because they are people of color.   Pelosi was reacting to the Fox News obsession with vilifying those four because they are people of color and standing up for themselves.  

Pelosi should know better than anyone that the minorities need to be defended now than ever and she’s happy to just throw them under the bus to placate the blue dog democrats. 

They aren't being singled out because they are people of color.

They are being singled out because they voted against a bill after leadership conceded to their demands.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Dennison, you’re just too stupid to engage with anymore. Sorry bro.

 

[David Dennison 18646]

Just now, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Dennison, you’re just too stupid to engage with anymore. Sorry bro.

 

Don't be butthurt just because you don't understand what's going on.

[Bama Chick 28596]

Oh and to give the Clay story some context, his dad held the seat for 30+ years and resigned on the day before the filing deadline so his son could sneak in and file before anyone else could decide if they would run.

He ran unopposed and he’s been in the seat 18 years. I think Cori Bush was the first one to ever challenge him.

[Dropout 355]

18 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Oh and to give the Clay story some context, his dad held the seat for 30+ years and resigned on the day before the filing deadline so his son could sneak in and file before anyone else could decide if they would run.

He ran unopposed and he’s been in the seat 18 years. I think Cori Bush was the first one to ever challenge him.

I believe so. She is back to finish the job this time around.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

This is a good assessment of the situation IMO:

Continued:

However, rather than embrace the enthusiastic participation hierarchical disruption causes, Pelosi is attempting to silence @AOC and the rest of “The Squad.”

Pelosi’s response is similar to the mandates of an abusive family system:

Smile and don’t talk outside the family.

Pelosi doesn’t appear to grasp it’s too late to try to revert back to the old system.

Unhealthy systems have brittle, impermeable boundaries. That’s the old way that got us here

Healthy systems have flexible, semi-permeable ones. That’s the new way @AOC is operating.

The future is here. We’re not going backwards.

Democratic leadership needs to adapt. Period.

They should not force Democratic voters to choose. Doing so will not turn out the way they think — at least not in the long run.

I’m a middle-aged woman who used to be a blue-dog Democrat.

I didn’t know I could expect MORE. Now I do.

I expect — I demand — moral clarity from Democratic leaders at this unprecedented crossroads in our history.

Moral clarity, ACTION, and greater TRANSPARENCY.

It pains me to say this because I respect @SpeakerPelosi’s accomplishments as a woman and a legislator.

However, so far, Pelosi is failing to rise to the moment.

I believe she can. I hope she will.

But the bottom line is leaders need to adapt and step up — or step aside.

/END

[David Dennison 18646]

Or be removed by the Democratic caucus.

That's an option if you can muster the support.

Good luck to AOC and the three others. 

[jimmyjazz 45538]

The Squad doesn't have the numbers to effect real change by 2020.  It would be in their best interest to show a modicum of tact and attempt to ease into the machine, rather than flinging shit all over the place and getting pissed when the machine doesn't respond kindly.

That said, the machine is horribly out of touch, and it rightly deserves to be castigated for not bringing the new kids into the fold in a meaningful way.

Pelosi and AOC, etc. have both fucked this up, which is exactly what I expected from the Democrats, because even in the face of unprecedented existential threat, they can't seem to EVER get aligned and accomplish much, particularly in the last decade or so.  It's the most confounding thing.  When they win, they win in spite of themselves.  Nothing more.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

This mini feud isn’t really that consequential in the grand scheme of things yet.  There’s so much time on the clock.  Pelosi isn’t doing much anyway except passing DOA legislation.  

AOC needs to keep it up IMO.  There’s plenty of time for the Dems to recover once the 2020 nominee is declared.   The democrats will be fighting for the next 11 months anyway on the campaign trail so Pelosi and AOC might as well get the bad blood out during this period.  

This is what democracy looks like.  It’s messy and it makes people uncomfortable.   At the end of the day I think a little infighting will make the democrats stronger for 2020 as long as the rally together by this time next year.

All this shit will be forgotten by then. 

[David Dennison 18646]

1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This mini feud isn’t really that consequential in the grand scheme of things yet.  There’s so much time on the clock.  Pelosi isn’t doing much anyway except passing DOA legislation.  

AOC needs to keep it up IMO.  There’s plenty of time for the Dems to recover once the 2020 nominee is declared.   The democrats will be fighting for the next 11 months anyway on the campaign trail so Pelosi and AOC might as well get the bad blood out during this period.  

This is what democracy looks like.  It’s messy and it makes people uncomfortable.   At the end of the day I think a little infighting will make the democrats stronger for 2020 as long as the rally together by this time next year.

All this shit will be forgotten by then. 

Infighting helps Republicans.

[GSU&UT 1798]

13 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Infighting helps Republicans.

Yep, gotta lay back and just take it on the chin and never fight for change.

[David Dennison 18646]

1 minute ago, GSU&UT said:

Yep, gotta lay back and just take it on the chin and never fight for change.

Or try to bring others you work with to your side instead of alienating them. Nancy Pelosi admonished them because other members were getting tired of the attacks.