Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[tantric superman 4667]

I was a Reagan-y white ringer and while I still have conservative tendencies, the ever growing cowardice  and vileness of Republicans since that time, coupled with the fact that there is no one of substance in the intellectual right, means it's been pretty easy to move left.

 

[HtownHorn 14468]

3 hours ago, retread said:

If the Ds can't rally together to fight for concentration camps being unacceptable, they may as well hang it up.

imgur

/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

[HtownHorn 14468]

Man this thread is a special kind of stupid. My guess is this what twitter is like. You guys really believe this shit, your echo chambers are amazing to behold.

[David Dennison 18652]

19 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

Man this thread is a special kind of stupid. My guess is this what twitter is like. You guys really believe this shit, your echo chambers are amazing to behold.

It's a lot like watching the right.

[David Dennison 18652]

1 hour ago, Mojo Hand said:

It's not about where the party is ideologically.   Sure, the AOC group is further left than most, but the House bill that got all but their votes was much further left than the Senate bill that the Dems rubber stamped.  Protections for people in the camps is an easy sell to everyone except the racists on the far right. 

It's about where the party is strategically, and has been during the entire GOP takeover of government over the last 25 years.  Dems think that voters are ideologically static and try to pander to the common denominator.   Republicans know that a huge chunk of voters are ideologically flexible, and they push those voters towards their extreme.   The result is extreme right policies when they're in power and more traditional Republican policies when the Dems win a foothold in Congress or the presidency.  Those same voters can be pushed the other way if presented with confident, unified persuasive efforts from Dems. 

The AOC group has the strategy exactly right, and the Dems will continue to fail until they realize it. 

Continue to fall like winning a majority in the House of Representatives or something else?

[JustBecause 112]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

People in government are center-right. The American people are center-left.

 

You've got to be trolling with that response.

[David Dennison 18652]

2 minutes ago, JustBecause said:

You've got to be trolling with that response.

It's true. That's why Democrats consistently get upwards of 9 to 10 million more votes in national elections.

 

[JustBecause 112]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's a lot like watching the right.

Not even close.  The right does incredibly dumb things there is no doubt about that but the left does it to a whole different level.  The Green New Deal is just one example.

[elfenix 34171]

1 hour ago, NowThis said:

the youngs become the olds.  I've become more conservative over the last couple of decades and I suspect many of you will be the same. Of course I'll never vote R but some people will convert. Depends on the economy first and foremost and other social conditions, maybe crime. It's regional too of course, Alabama and the redneck culture isn't going to die soon (despite Roy Moore). As minorities become wealthier, they too will become more conservative.  We'll see. 

i watched conservatives lie us into a war that cost thousands of american service members lives, broke the lives of tens of thousands more service members and their families, crash the economy, reneg on all their promises of "fiscal conservatism" while grossly expanding the debt over the last 40 yearrs, and that's only made me become more conservative

--NowThis, probably.

Edited July 13, 2019 by elfenix

[Bullneck 18987]

2 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Oh noes not Hitler II !!!!  well OK, it's just Hitler II. Re runs are never as powerful as the original anyway.

That someone with allegedly firing synapse would use the Hitler reference about Trump (or any modern day elected official) is so boring it's not even funny any more.

The "reruns" have access to our nuclear weapons arsenal.  

If you feel like you've heard the Hitler comparison too many times to count there's a reason for it.

[Bullneck 18987]

56 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

 

/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />

 

You're out of your league here.

[NowThis 931]

31 minutes ago, elfenix said:

i watched conservatives lie us into a war that cost thousands of american service members lives, broke the lives of tens of thousands more service members and their families, crash the economy, reneg on all their promises of "fiscal conservatism" while grossly expanding the debt over the last 40 yearrs, and that's only made me become more conservative

--NowThis, probably.

well, i want to slash Defense by $200 Billion and no one on Surly agrees with that, meaning i am the only real lib here! 

To me, it's all about the money by far. Cut everything as much as possible, use the $200Bil for healthcare. Eliminate many cabinet positions and federal agencies. Get rid of ICE and the dept of Education. Get rid of the USMC. Money money money. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

40 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Continue to fall like winning a majority in the House of Representatives or something else?

Sure, fail like continuing to win a majority in the House only to pass nothing and rubber stamp Mitch McConnell's bills without change.   When that is "success," the Dems have absolutely failed.   Or when your biggest "wins" over the last 25 years are enacting the Heritage Foundation's health care plan, welfare "reform," and the crime bill. 

It's like when aggy finished 3rd in their division but in the top ten and thought they were elite.   When that's your best, you are losing more generally.   Winning for the Dems should mean enacting actual progressive policies, and losing should mean getting shit like Obamacare through as a compromise with the right.   That's the situation the right has achieved — winning for them is the most awful of right-wing policies, and losing is when the Dems enact the conservative health care plan and take the blame for its shitty parts. 

[retread 2951]

How about standing up for ACA instead of letting the WH kick the legs out from under it? Get out in the media and educate people. Point out that the Rs have no alternative plan.

[Pato del Muerto 52340]

On 7/11/2019 at 10:19 PM, UpperWestside said:

That day is coming. She will learn how to navigate Washington. When she does it will not be fun to be opposed to her. 

The DC machine has ways of processing her and those like her. I’ll bet on the machine until it loses. Politics is a terrible, dirty game and those who show up altruistically wanting to help their constituents or fix Washington will get run over or buried. 

[Thetexashammer 1062]

1 hour ago, retread said:

How about standing up for ACA instead of letting the WH kick the legs out from under it? Get out in the media and educate people. Point out that the Rs have no alternative plan.

That's like asking what's my alternate plan to stabbing you in the eyeball with an icepick. Let's just start with less stabbing.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

She'll have a $5 million book deal by the end of the year. She'll become extremely wealthy through "public service" like all the good socialists do.

[SaucyJack 3487]

3 hours ago, NowThis said:

America is center-right and will be for another generation or two. AOC/Tlaib/Omar/a couple others are on the far left side of the all important Bell Curve.  Why is everyone surprised that their motions are ignored by their own party? 

 

3 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

People in government are center-right. The American people are center-left.

 

Maybe, maybe not.

In NYC, The AOC movement produced approx. 17,000 votes in a contested primary.

In Bexar County, the Congressman Joaquin Castro movement produced approx. 32,000 votes in an uncontested primary.

First time running, Castro was 28 when he defeated an incumbent for state rep.

Castro has steadily moved right since his first election in 2002.

Just some data points.

There are a few on this thread that have seen this play several times before.  These new actors sure are entertaining, though.

 

 

[Zombie 284]

Maybe, maybe not.
In NYC, The AOC movement produced approx. 17,000 votes in a contested primary.
In Bexar County, the Congressman Joaquin Castro movement produced approx. 32,000 votes in an uncontested primary.
First time running, Castro was 28 when he defeated an incumbent for state rep.
Castro has steadily moved right since his first election in 2002.
Just some data points.
There are a few on this thread that have seen this play several times before.  These new actors sure are entertaining, though.
 
 

How has Castro moved right?

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

[David Dennison 18652]

2 hours ago, Mojo Hand said:

Sure, fail like continuing to win a majority in the House only to pass nothing and rubber stamp Mitch McConnell's bills without change.   When that is "success," the Dems have absolutely failed.   Or when your biggest "wins" over the last 25 years are enacting the Heritage Foundation's health care plan, welfare "reform," and the crime bill. 

It's like when aggy finished 3rd in their division but in the top ten and thought they were elite.   When that's your best, you are losing more generally.   Winning for the Dems should mean enacting actual progressive policies, and losing should mean getting shit like Obamacare through as a compromise with the right.   That's the situation the right has achieved — winning for them is the most awful of right-wing policies, and losing is when the Dems enact the conservative health care plan and take the blame for its shitty parts. 

You should stop voting for Democrats. Enacting progressive policies requires progressives. The Democratic party isn't progressive. 

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by David Dennison

[American Swindle 102]

well, i want to slash Defense by $200 Billion and no one on Surly agrees with that, meaning i am the only real lib here! 
To me, it's all about the money by far. Cut everything as much as possible, use the $200Bil for healthcare. Eliminate many cabinet positions and federal agencies. Get rid of ICE and the dept of Education. Get rid of the USMC. Money money money. 

I agree with you.

[HtownHorn 14468]

3 hours ago, elfenix said:

i watched conservatives lie us into a war that cost thousands of american service members lives, broke the lives of tens of thousands more service members and their families, crash the economy, reneg on all their promises of "fiscal conservatism" while grossly expanding the debt over the last 40 yearrs, and that's only made me become more conservative

--NowThis, probably.

Then why didn't Obama bring the troops home? Nearly 3 times as many troops died in Afghanistan under Obama's watch than Bush.

Edited July 13, 2019 by HtownHorn

[HtownHorn 14468]

3 hours ago, Bullneck said:

The "reruns" have access to our nuclear weapons arsenal.  

If you feel like you've heard the Hitler comparison too many times to count there's a reason for it.

Yes, there are a lot of vocal retards in America.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

53 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You should stop voting for Democrats. Enacting progressive policies requires progressives. The Democratic party isn't progressive. 

 

And vote for who else, exactly?   Voting third party only helps Republicans.  The way to improve the party is by voting for better Democrats.   Which includes primarying bad ones, like the Justice Dems have done, which is why the AOC group is there to begin with.

My rep is pretty progressive, has come out for impeachment hearings, and voted no on the Senate border bill.   My city has lurched to the left in local elections.   And I've got Warren for president.   So I don't see any need to vote for anyone else. 

[David Dennison 18652]

36 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

And vote for who else, exactly?   Voting third party only helps Republicans.  The way to improve the party is by voting for better Democrats.   Which includes primarying bad ones, like the Justice Dems have done, which is why the AOC group is there to begin with.

My rep is pretty progressive, has come out for impeachment hearings, and voted no on the Senate border bill.   My city has lurched to the left in local elections.   And I've got Warren for president.   So I don't see any need to vote for anyone else. 

Movement left is going to be slower than I would like. The Democratic majority exists because of moderates, not progressives. It's probably going to be that way for a few more cycles if Democrats want to keep the majority. 

[Mojo Hand 4580]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Movement left is going to be slower than I would like. The Democratic majority exists because of moderates, not progressives. It's probably going to be that way for a few more cycles if Democrats want to keep the majority. 

The Democratic majority exists because of Trump.   And the reason we needed to claw back one house of Congress in the first place is because of moderate Democrats.  For the first time in a long time, though, I have hope. 

[Incredulity 11559]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

You should stop voting for Democrats. Enacting progressive policies requires progressives. The Democratic party isn't progressive. 

 

Pacific Green Party?

[UpperWestside 6134]

4 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The DC machine has ways of processing her and those like her. I’ll bet on the machine until it loses. Politics is a terrible, dirty game and those who show up altruistically wanting to help their constituents or fix Washington will get run over or buried. 

This is the part of her story where we discover if she is true to her beliefs or if she is the political version of "Fuck you Bret Bielema, you fat fucking retard." She has a choice to make. Either stick to her guns or completely capitulate and just take the payday and fuck her constituents. 

I do not want an overnight complete overhaul of Washington, but I want people there trying to better our country. That is not too much to ask. 

[elfenix 34171]

7 hours ago, HtownHorn said:

Then why didn't Obama bring the troops home? Nearly 3 times as many troops died in Afghanistan under Obama's watch than Bush.

do you think this is an argument to continue voting for conservatives?

[jimmyjazz 45546]

12 hours ago, HtownHorn said:

Then why didn't Obama bring the troops home? Nearly 3 times as many troops died in Afghanistan under Obama's watch than Bush.

Well, isn't that convenient.  Why did you leave out Iraq (or Pakistan and Syria, for that matter)?

Nearly twice as many US troops have died in Iraq as Afghanistan.  Roughly 70% of all those deaths happened when W occupied the White House, and we weren't even engaged that whole time.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

[Bookman 4610]

20 hours ago, David Dennison said:

You voted for someone who is even more corrupt. By a lot. Oh, and he's a sexual predator and a racist. 

Good job.

And what's bizarre is he did it knowingly.

[Fozzz 152]

lmao the dems commissioned and a leaked a poll of lumpens to discredit "the squad"

 

 

[David Dennison 18652]

7 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

lmao the dems commissioned and a leaked a poll of lumpens to discredit "the squad"

 

 

The United States of America is about catering to white people.

This is not a surprise.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

On 7/13/2019 at 12:46 PM, Hank Kingsley said:

People in government are center-right. The American people are center-left.

 

I disagree, people who work civil service in this country are more left of center. Those are the day to day never voted out of office gov't. apparatus folks.  Northern Va. and Washington DC are prime examples of that illustrated by their voting habits.  

Now if you take the nation as a whole including flyover states those % may come back in line with more center of the road at best.

[alincoln 2364]

On 7/13/2019 at 2:52 PM, Bullneck said:

You're out of your league here.

Says the dude who earnestly proved Godwin's Law on the last page of the thread

[alincoln 2364]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The United States of America is about catering to white people.

This is not a surprise.

It's about catering to elites, which predominantly consist of white people.  The elites care as much about poor whites as they do the poor of other races.  There are more white children living in poverty in the U.S. than any other race but keep obscuring reality by pivoting to identity politics you divisive cunt.  

[retread 2951]

More on the poll that Fozzz cited

Quote

Top Democrats are circulating a poll showing that one of the House's most progressive members — Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez — has become a definitional face for the party with a crucial group of swing voters.

Why it matters: These Democrats are sounding the alarm that swing voters know and dislike socialism, warning it could cost them the House and the presidency. The poll is making the rounds of some of the most influential Democrats in America. 

"If all voters hear about is AOC, it could put the [House] majority at risk," said a top Democrat who is involved in 2020 congressional races. "he's getting all the news and defining everyone else’s races."

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

On 7/14/2019 at 7:40 AM, Bookman said:

And what's bizarre is he did it knowingly.

And she knowingly helped trash the sexual assault, and rape victims of her husband...  See how that works ? 

You're defending a woman who said she's for womens rights, and stated quite clearly that all rape victims should be heard, and believed. Unless of course they were her husbands sexual assault and rape victims.  

$100 says she knew about his 26 or so trips to sex slave island as well, but wouldn't say shit because of the dollar gravy train, and power hungry narcissism she has.

The eye-rony of your remarks are hilarious.

[Js1 85095]

Democratic establishment is all in on the "WE MUST CONVERT TRUMP SUPPORTERS TO WIN IN 2020!"  

That's how you lose. Do you want to lose again? 

[retread 2951]

^ They're doing their best to lose.

[jimmyjazz 45546]

31 minutes ago, alincoln said:

It's about catering to elites, which predominantly consist of white people.  The elites care as much about poor whites as they do the poor of other races.  There are more white children living in poverty in the U.S. than any other race but keep obscuring reality by pivoting to identity politics you divisive cunt.  

Well, given the fact that white persons (non-Hispanic or Latino) represent a bit over 60% of the US population, this is not exactly surprising.  That's almost 4X the count on Hispanic or Latino (16%) and almost 5X black or African American (13%).

[Pato del Muerto 52340]

24 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Democratic establishment is all in on the "WE MUST CONVERT TRUMP SUPPORTERS TO WIN IN 2020!"  

That's how you lose. Do you want to lose again? 

People can be pretty damn dogmatic with their political beliefs, but I’d think all political parties/ideologies would want to have some form of outreach to educate the  other side with the ultimate goal of changing minds, in addition to motivating their base. 

Theres several ways to capture some trump votes. Not every trump vote was cast from a drooling racist moron. Help them realize they don’t want to be as far right as they have been, and that a Democrat vote won’t take them further left than they can handle. 

[Anastasis 23393]

41 minutes ago, retread said:

More on the poll that Fozzz cited

 

 

The political party establishment is so fucking awesome. 

[Fozzz 152]

I don't know if it's because they are fixated on those voters as much as they view that demo as the best cudgel to use against the freshman members.  

[Pato del Muerto 52340]

A good argument for term limits in the legislative. Too many cabals or cliques form over the years, too many votes bought or traded for. Too many favors owed. 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Pato del Muerto

[Mojo Hand 4580]

12 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

People can be pretty damn dogmatic with their political beliefs, but I’d think all political parties/ideologies would want to have some form of outreach to educate the  other side with the ultimate goal of changing minds, in addition to motivating their base. 

Theres several ways to capture some trump votes. Not every trump vote was cast from a drooling racist moron. Help them realize they don’t want to be as far right as they have been, and that a Democrat vote won’t take them further left than they can handle. 

The ones who can be captured and moved aren't really ideological in that way.   For example, there is a huge chunk of folks who could have gone towards Bernie in 2016 if he were the nominee but went Trump instead.   And there are even more people who would have preferred Trump to Bernie head to head but would have gone for Bernie against someone like Ted Cruz.    

These are people looking for answers to problems they face, but aren't inherently beholden to a party.   They aren't smart enough to really be reasoned with, but they will follow strength and confidence.   Trump used that to bring out the worst in them.  A strong Dem can bring out better from them.   And the way to be strong is to confidently push real structural solutions from the left.   Moderation is why Dems are where they are. 

[Pato del Muerto 52340]

I mean counter the things like open borders. I don’t think most democrats are for open borders in the most liberal sense, but there’s misinformation out there that should be countered. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I mean counter the things like open borders. I don’t think most democrats are for open borders in the most liberal sense, but there’s misinformation out there that should be countered. 

The problem is the left side of the DNC is trying to push the party that far left, and is for open borders.  The image of all the DNC candidates raising their hands for free healthcare for illegal aliens (beyond immediate assistance) is a bad optic.

  Capturing moderate votes is a key demographic they need if they're gonna win.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

1 hour ago, Mojo Hand said:

The ones who can be captured and moved aren't really ideological in that way.   For example, there is a huge chunk of folks who could have gone towards Bernie in 2016 if he were the nominee but went Trump instead.   And there are even more people who would have preferred Trump to Bernie head to head but would have gone for Bernie against someone like Ted Cruz.    

These are people looking for answers to problems they face, but aren't inherently beholden to a party.   They aren't smart enough to really be reasoned with, but they will follow strength and confidence.   Trump used that to bring out the worst in them.  A strong Dem can bring out better from them.   And the way to be strong is to confidently push real structural solutions from the left.   Moderation is why Dems are where they are. 

And that's how you get people who really dislike Trump and his GOP to vote third party or stay at home. It's how we ended up with this retard in the whitehouse in the first place. Y'all really can't help yourselves. 

[Captainant 27442]

11 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

And that's how you get people who really dislike Trump and his GOP to vote third party or stay at home. It's how we ended up with this retard in the whitehouse in the first place. Y'all really can't help yourselves. 

Not disagreeing with the point you're making here, but have you tried discussing an issue with zavala or tahoe or any of the other chucklefucks? They do not respond to data or hard facts. It's all talking points and rhetoric with them. A better way to put it is that "they're not intellectually honest enough to be reasoned with"