Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[Mojo Hand 4580]

27 minutes ago, NowThis said:

centrism means balancing reality with available resources and needs. 

No it doesn't.  There are plenty of resources.  They're just concentrated among a tiny fraction of people. 

[NowThis 931]

7 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

No it doesn't.  There are plenty of resources.  They're just concentrated among a tiny fraction of people. 

the US has a strong middle class which is improving.  The political debate is about government spending and allocation of resources, which should be prudent and conservative. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Don’t let Orca troll this thread.

[elfenix 34171]

1 hour ago, tantric superman said:

One of the things I would try to pass if I were elected would be to phase out income social security by putting everyone on privatized IRA plans.  Everyone would be placed in a Target Date (birth date plus 65) Fund, and contributions would be taken from income and put in those funds.  When you hit 65 can take certain percentage out.

Can't use it until you hit 65.  When you die, 50% of what is left goes to heirs and 50% to US.  The 50% that goes to US would be to help fund disability, supplemental funds for those who need it. 

Centrist proposal?

this is very right wing.  it benefits current capital owners immediately while making everyone else wait their turn, while extending the estate tax down on the middle class to absolve the wealthy of their responsibility to pay to protect their own wealth. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by elfenix

[Dbeasy 14967]

Again, this is fucking ridiculous.  It's entirely possible to have a conviction that lands in between two extremes.  What you are saying is phenomenally offensive, and it's exactly why Democrats continue to shoot themselves in the foot over and over again.
For fuck's sake. Stop with the Aggie firing squad bullshit.  It's incredibly damaging.  

Fantastic post. Just to put it into perspective, a centrist is interested in balancing fairness with individual responsibility. If people don’t get a fair shot at the “American dream”, government policies should be enacted to make it more fair. Conversely, if an individual does not take responsibility for their own actions, it is not up to the government to fix it for them. Almost every policy could be framed in this way to ensure that there is proper balance in the policy.

Apply it to student debt. Should every dollar of student debt be forgiven no matter the circumstances? Should no debt be forgiven at all? How much is fair, but also recognizes an individual’s responsibility for taking on that debt in the first place?

[Dbeasy 14967]

Again, this is fucking ridiculous.  It's entirely possible to have a conviction that lands in between two extremes.  What you are saying is phenomenally offensive, and it's exactly why Democrats continue to shoot themselves in the foot over and over again.
For fuck's sake. Stop with the Aggie firing squad bullshit.  It's incredibly damaging.  

Fantastic post. Just to put it into perspective, a centrist is interested in balancing fairness with individual responsibility. If people don’t get a fair shot at the “American dream”, government policies should be enacted to make it more fair. Conversely, if an individual does not take responsibility for their own actions, it is not up to the government to fix it for them. Almost every policy could be framed in this way to ensure that there is proper balance in the policy.

Apply it to student debt. Should every dollar of student debt be forgiven no matter the circumstances? Should no debt be forgiven at all? How much is fair, but also recognizes an individual’s responsibility for taking on that debt in the first place?

[TwiceHorn 31272]

3 hours ago, retread said:

There's probably a better way to put it, but people are energized b/c AOC's ideas are aimed at fixing a problem. They're big ideas. Rs will complain that they're Socialist and far left.

Instead of looking at that as a deal breaker, maybe members of Congress on both sides could look at it as a starting point? It seems like Rs and Ds in Congress don't even communicate with each other anymore.

I'm energized by Warren's policies for that reason.  Also that they are reasonably well thought out and have a mechanism for payment that seems grounded in reality.  They have eat the rich aspects, but they aren't just eat the rich.

[tantric superman 4667]

20 minutes ago, elfenix said:

this is very right wing.  it benefits current capital owners immediately while making everyone else wait their turn, while extending the estate tax down on the middle class to absolve the wealthy of their responsibility to pay to protect their own wealth. 

Well, certainly anyone under 65 has to wait their turn but I would say it benefits everyone who will eventually have their own fund as opposed to only having access to an insolvent social security fund.

I'm open to any idea you have in regard to punishing capital owners in a way you see fit.

Edited July 20, 2019 by tantric superman

[thrillhammer 683]

52 minutes ago, NowThis said:

ensure 

no thanks, i'm not that old yet.

[NowThis 931]

4 minutes ago, thrillhammer said:

no thanks, i'm not that old yet.

some prefer Glucerna 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

She’s coming for you Nancy. 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[David Dennison 18656]

6 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

She’s coming for you Nancy. 

 

Is she?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Nah, hopefully they will be working together to develop a good messaging strategy for the rest of the year.  Crossing my fingers that Nancy does more listening than talking.

[elfenix 34171]

dbl

Edited July 20, 2019 by elfenix

[elfenix 34171]

1 hour ago, tantric superman said:

Well, certainly anyone under 65 has to wait their turn but I would say it benefits everyone who will eventually have their own fund as opposed to only having access to an insolvent social security fund.

I'm open to any idea you have in regard to punishing capital owners in a way you see fit.

it's only "insolvent" because the republicans looted it in the 80s after raising the tax rate too high (why the fuck was social security running big surpluses? what sense does that make?) and now pretend there's not enough money to pay it back. 

frankly the whole thing should be paid out of general revenue.  social security is a regressive tax.  absent that, get rid of the caps. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by elfenix

[tantric superman 4667]

4 minutes ago, elfenix said:

it's only "insolvent" because the republicans looted it in the 80s after raising the tax rate too high (why the fuck was social security running big surpluses? what sense does that make?) and now pretend there's not enough money to pay it back. 

frankly the whole thing should be paid out of general revenue.  social security is a regressive tax.  absent that, get rid of the caps. 

Okay, I'm fine with blaming the Republicans.  Not really relevant to what is the best way to help provide for people in their later years, but I'm fine with that.

I don't know why paying out of general revenues is better than having people have their own funds that are paid out over the year through taxes which go into their individual funds.  The idea of saving a percentage of your income for retirement seems to be a relatively universally accepted idea. 

[elfenix 34171]

it's relevant because you're using a republican buzzword of "insolvent" as a reason to switch to private accounts.  it's only "insolvent" if you refuse to do simple things like eliminating the cap.  did you know that the interest rate used to change several times a decade?  it's been stuck (and, again, for the first couple decades, too high) for about 30 years, which has trained a couple generations to (subconsciously) think it's unchangeable. 

the only problem that private accounts actually solve is the problem that congress could, tomorrow, vote to take away social security benefits.  i think that's a more theoretical problem than actual.

switching would create a huge implementation problem converting SS from a pay-as-you-go system to a fully funded system.

Quote

why paying out of general revenues is better

because general revenue isn't regressive. you asked me what my ideas were. 

34 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

The idea of saving a percentage of your income for retirement seems to be a relatively universally accepted idea. 

and SS as currently implemented already does a good job of it absent getting fucked with by the representatives of capital.  it's not supposed to be all of your retirement, but it's there.   and it should be *always* there.  i can't say the same thing for some IRA.  you can pretty easily fuck yourself that way. 

 

 

i used to really like typical right-wing fiscal policy claims like privatizing SS and a balanced budget amendment.  but they just don't solve enough real world problems for all the problems that they bring with them. 

 

 

edit: as UT's own james galbraith says, SS is a foundational program.  interview:

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2013/01/18/debt-ceiling-crisis-overrated.html

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by elfenix

[jimmyjazz 45557]

3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I used to argue centrists had an ideology based around some basic values but after more thought and consideration, they don’t because their centrism is defined by their neutral proximity to the real ideologies.

Please take this in the spirit intended:  fuck you.

For anyone else who needs an explanation as to why one might have a legitimate perspective located somewhere between two extremes?  Fuck you.

Welcome to Trump 2020.  

[jimmyjazz 45557]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Sometimes it is black and white.  Like today.  You either oppose the racism of the GOP, or you don’t.  It’s that simple.

AND once again fuck you.  One can oppose the racism of the GOP in its totality and still essentially be "a centrist".

Man, you have a lot of growing up to do.  Hope it happens soon.  Too much is at stake.

[retread 2951]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm energized by Warren's policies for that reason.  Also that they are reasonably well thought out and have a mechanism for payment that seems grounded in reality.  They have eat the rich aspects, but they aren't just eat the rich.

We've hit on this in one of these threads, but the false dichotomy of R vs. D ideas is so counterproductive. The idea that you can only choose one is unfortunately the political reality of a lot of legislation that tries to move itself through Congress these days. Instead of ignoring big problems, it would be so encouraging to see Congress sit down and hammer out compromises that reflect the melting pot of ideologies that send them to DC. 

For some legistlation, maybe the 'libs' in CA get some of the things they want, and the 'conservatives' in AL get some of the things they want. In the end, citizens' lives are helped or made better by their work. Our big problems are not unsolvable.

Edited July 20, 2019 by retread

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

14 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

AND once again fuck you.  One can oppose the racism of the GOP in its totality and still essentially be "a centrist".

Man, you have a lot of growing up to do.  Hope it happens soon.  Too much is at stake.

So tell me, would you describe yourself as an intolerant centrist? 

[jimmyjazz 45557]

2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

So tell me, would you describe yourself as an intolerant centrist? 

Sure, if that works for you.

[David Dennison 18656]

9 minutes ago, retread said:

We've hit on this in one of these threads, but the false dichotomy of R vs. D ideas is so counterproductive. The idea that you can only choose one is unfortunately the political reality of a lot of legislation that tries to move itself through Congress these days. Instead of ignoring big problems, it would be so encouraging to see Congress sit down and hammer out compromises that reflect the melting pot of ideologies that send them to DC. 

For some legistlation, maybe the 'libs' in CA get some of the things they want, and the 'conservatives' in AL get some of the things they want. In the end, citizens' lives are helped or made better by their work. Our big problems are not unsolvable.

Unfortunately, one of the parties has absolutely no interest in solving our big problems. 

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by David Dennison

[tantric superman 4667]

54 minutes ago, elfenix said:

because general revenue isn't regressive. you asked me what my ideas were. 

Help a brother out.  And this is a true question because I don't know the answer.

Is paying out of general revenue less regressive than private IRAs?  And if so, why?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Sure, if that works for you.

It’s just interesting that in one thread I’m told to fuck reluctant Trump voters while at the same time I should acknowledge centrists as a demographic with any value. 

Trump has absolutely destroyed the center, it is gone.  The asymmetrical polarization of the GOP has pulled the entire country to the right.  You don’t have to be a socialist to oppose Trump but you can’t pretend anymore  there are good ideas on both sides.  It’s just not possible anymore to straddle the ideological fence in the moderate space.  I mean, you can try but the Republicans took the biggest turn towards fascism I’ve ever seen in my life this week.

Like I said, we’re undergoing an ideological realignment and the center is currently a completely empty space until the left and right are better defined.

[DDD Dad 14251]

It’s just interesting that in one thread I’m told to fuck reluctant Trump voters while at the same time I should acknowledge centrists as a demographic with any value. 
Trump has absolutely destroyed the center, it is gone.  The asymmetrical polarization of the GOP has pulled the entire country to the right.  You don’t have to be a socialist to oppose Trump but you can’t pretend anymore  there are good ideas on both sides.  It’s just not possible anymore to straddle the ideological fence in the moderate space.  I mean, you can try but the Republicans took the biggest turn towards fascism I’ve ever seen in my life this week.
Like I said, we’re undergoing an ideological realignment and the center is currently a completely empty space until the left and right are better defined.

So much in this post is just flat wrong.

[jimmyjazz 45557]

5 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

It’s just interesting that in one thread I’m told to fuck reluctant Trump voters while at the same time I should acknowledge centrists as a demographic with any value. 

Trump has absolutely destroyed the center, it is gone.  The asymmetrical polarization of the GOP has pulled the entire country to the right.  You don’t have to be a socialist to oppose Trump but you can’t pretend anymore  there are good ideas on both sides.  It’s just not possible anymore to straddle the ideological fence in the moderate space.  I mean, you can try but the Republicans took the biggest turn towards fascism I’ve ever seen in my life this week.

Like I said, we’re undergoing an ideological realignment and the center is currently a completely empty space until the left and right are better defined.

WTF are you babbling about?  Being a "centrist" in no way defaults to acknowledging "both sides have good points".

You need to reset your perspective.  I can completely reject the right and partially reject the extreme left and still sleep at night.  Man, I don't know about you.  You really struggle with shades of gray.

I reserve the right to completely reject much of what bad_teammate proposes.  That in no way makes me a Trump supporter, apologist, acceptor, whatever.  Disabuse yourself of your bullshit binary opinions.

[David Dennison 18656]

Just now, DDD Dad said:

So much in this post is just flat wrong.
 

Yep. A whole lot more people vote for the party associated with left wing politics than the right. Democrats will get upwards of ten million more votes than Republicans next year. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

8 hours ago, tchookem said:

Crafting a compromise can be more difficult than developing a hardline plan. Getting both sides to accept it takes just as much work and is usually the most effective way to move everyone forward. Don't discount a sincere centerist with a plan.

Compromise is a strategy, not an idea. It's not a plan, either, because a plan has an actual goal.

A centrist is, by definition, someone who is defined by others who are in opposition. It is someone who believes that truth and right are "in the middle" of two (or more) extremes.

Comrpromise and centrism aren't interchangeable.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

You need to reset your perspective

I think that’s what I’m doing here.  I’m basically asking for your help.  BT is way far left no doubt but where the fuck is the center when the right is full blown fascism?   

[bad_teammate 13132]

I am absolutely not "way far left". I still support market economics and reformed capitalism. The fact that I come across as "way far left" shows just how right-wing even the centrists are.

Talk to some Maoist third-worlders and tell me I'm "way far left".

[retread 2951]

45 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Unfortunately, one of the parties has absolutely no interest in solving our big problems..

Agree.

[jimmyjazz 45557]

Look, people need to recognize that what's happening right now is just a repeat of 4 years ago.  The Dems will eat their own in an orgy of virtue signalling and scorn.  Cut it out.  

I don't care if the nominee is Bernie, Kamala, Pete, Liz, Joe, whoever.  OK, I have my preferences, but ultimately I don't care that much.  I want TRUMP OUT OF OFFICE.  It's chemotherapy time.  That's goal #1.  There is no secondary goal.  We are trying to keep the patient alive.  

[elfenix 34171]

47 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Help a brother out.  And this is a true question because I don't know the answer.

Is paying out of general revenue less regressive than private IRAs?  And if so, why?

uh, it's apples and computer chips.

paying current social security out of general revenues is better than the current regressive social security tax.  you asked me for my ideas, so i gave you one. 

i gave you separate reasons for why mandatory privatized social security that's stuck in the market is a bad idea.  how you want to fund that could be regressive, neutral, or progressive. 

[CO Horn 154]

32 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I think that’s what I’m doing here.  I’m basically asking for your help.  BT is way far left no doubt but where the fuck is the center when the right is full blown fascism?   

I would say a good number of the anti-Trump posters here are centrists. I definitely lean left, but don’t agree with many of the policies of the Progressives in the Democratic Party. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

13 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Look, people need to recognize that what's happening right now is just a repeat of 4 years ago.  The Dems will eat their own in an orgy of virtue signalling and scorn.  Cut it out.  

I don't care if the nominee is Bernie, Kamala, Pete, Liz, Joe, whoever.  OK, I have my preferences, but ultimately I don't care that much.  I want TRUMP OUT OF OFFICE.  It's chemotherapy time.  That's goal #1.  There is no secondary goal.  We are trying to keep the patient alive.  

Here’s my underlying argument:  Any ideology to the left of a fascist status quo is by definition, “progressive”.   

That doesn’t mean you have to abandon your conservative principles or become a communist.  Remember when we all shared some basic values like the patriotism of dissent and basic human rights?  Yeah, one party no longer believes in that shit and they are letting the world know.  The free world is clapping back and saying “fuck your fascist shit America.”

I know this is an uncomfortable conversation and perhaps we should just stick to debating the ideas on their merits instead of the irritating ideological nomenclature. 

My bad if I offended anyone.

[jimmyjazz 45557]

Well, it would help if people would stop saying "if you aren't far left you're far right".  Just a thought.

[Deej 76566]

15 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Well, it would help if people would stop saying "if you aren't far left you're far right".  Just a thought.

Nope. Your either all in on the far left or you're some sort of fascist. Hugo out front should have told you. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

11 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Well, it would help if people would stop saying "if you aren't far left you're far right".  Just a thought.

I think the way our collective conceptualization of progressivism has been shaped has been done in bad faith.  It’s been repackaged as trigger word to make people think “far left” and I don’t know if that deceptive perception can be overcome. 

SAD! 

It’s my belief that whatever significant conservative movement comes after Trumpism in the GOP will be a progressive movement because there’s not much ideologically remaining.  Reform will be their only option. 

[RDCanecutter 26267]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Trump has absolutely destroyed the center, it is gone. 

Turn off all your devices, and just go outside, travel in a random direction, and interact with the people you meet. You will be pleasantly surprised.

Unless you happen to wander into the next Manson Family's encampment. But hey, it still won't be as awful as staring at a screen all day.

[RDCanecutter 26267]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

I am absolutely not "way far left".

I don't know if you are far left or not, but I always picture you posting while wearing a Hawaiian shirt. Please tell me this is so. For some reason, it is important to me. Lie to me if you need to.

[Brisketexan 104605]

I don't know if you are far left or not, but I always picture you posting while wearing a Hawaiian shirt. Please tell me this is so. For some reason, it is important to me. Lie to me if you need to.

Wait...people wear clothes while posting? I had no idea.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

Well certainly not pants. Unless I'm also cooking bacon.

[jimmyjazz 45557]

22 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Well certainly not pants. Unless I'm also cooking bacon.

I cooked your mom's bacon last night.  Damn near burnt myself.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

12 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Our waking hell ?  You really are a miserable piece of work.

If you're not feeling the burn then you're holding the torch. 

[tantric superman 4667]

13 hours ago, elfenix said:

you asked me for my ideas, so i gave you one. 

You've said that twice now. 

Yes, when I ask someone something on an internet board I am indeed asking for their ideas.

.

[jimmyjazz 45557]

For those who think Trump's rhetoric is harmless, here's one of Louisiana's best and brightest law enforcement officers suggesting that AOC be shot:

 

 

Nice shot

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

For those who think Trump's rhetoric is harmless, here's one of Louisiana's best and brightest law enforcement officers suggesting that AOC be shot:

 

 

Nice shot

Best part of this story:

Rispoli's comment referred to a fake news story he posted to his personal Facebook page on Thursday at 1:51 p.m. The story's headline attributed a fabricated quote to Ocasio-Cortez saying, "We pay soldiers too much." The photo on the post is marked as "satire" and it had been labeled "false" by the website snopes.com on Wednesday, but Rispoli appeared to be upset by it.

 

 

The New Orleans suburbs are hotbeds for some of the most racist and ignorant people I’ve known. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21061]

14 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Look, people need to recognize that what's happening right now is just a repeat of 4 years ago.  The Dems will eat their own in an orgy of virtue signalling and scorn.  Cut it out.  

I don't care if the nominee is Bernie, Kamala, Pete, Liz, Joe, whoever.  OK, I have my preferences, but ultimately I don't care that much.  I want TRUMP OUT OF OFFICE.  It's chemotherapy time.  That's goal #1.  There is no secondary goal.  We are trying to keep the patient alive.  

This is 100% where I am w/ all this. 

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

15 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Please take this in the spirit intended:  fuck you.

For anyone else who needs an explanation as to why one might have a legitimate perspective located somewhere between two extremes?  Fuck you.

Welcome to Trump 2020.  

Beer for you