Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[David Dennison 18655]

The worst kept secret in this country is that most Americans absolutely LOVE the socialist programs that are already in place. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The worst kept secret in this country is that most Americans absolutely LOVE the socialist programs that are already in place. 

Yep. But the biggest danger to our country right now is one that doesnt get much play.  The intentional destruction of our public school systems by the GOP.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, FondrenRoad said:

Yep. But the biggest danger to our country right now is one that doesnt get much play.  The intentional destruction of our public school systems by the GOP.

Yeah cause after decades long educational system improvements by democrat held city councils and school boards (in many of the major cities of our country) now the GOP is destroying public education....

Edited July 24, 2018 by Onboard 2.0

[deadshank 24651]

16 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

It appears you missed this post,@deadshank. Do you think Puerto Ricans are Americans?

I did not miss your post.  I had to go to the airport to pick up the missus.  Sorry for the delay.

Yes, I think Puerto Ricans are Americans.  I think PR should be admitted to the Union as a state and afforded all of the rights and privileges afforded to the current 50 states.  The US does not have a real good track record with PR. 

Many Puerto Ricans do not consider themselves Americans but rather Puerto Ricans.  

My problem with her statement is she claims to be a Puerto Rican and not necessarily an American.  I have no problem with her being proud of her heritage.   I have no problem with her having her political views.  To me, her own comment seemed as though she holds herself to be a Puerto Rican before being an American.  What's wrong with being an American first and then, oh by they way, I'm also proud of my Puerto Rican heritage?  

I had an office manager that was of Mexican descent.  She was born in Ohio.  Her parents were born in Ohio.  Her granparents were born in Ohio.  She adamantly denied she was American and insisted on being called a Mexican.  I could never understand the need for her to identify herself in that way.  

Sorry to get you boys all worked up.  

[EuroHorn 3204]

1 hour ago, thrillhammer said:

this thread was better when you two weren't bickering like schoolgirls.  oh, and when there were more pictures of ocasio-cortez being posted.

It’s a battle to determine who is more sanctimonious 

[wildcat09 29237]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Truly one of the best self owns of all time.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Quote

To them the end result seems pointless.

It's almost like the entire social and economic system itself is designed to constantly pound desperation and fear into our minds.

It's almost like swaths of empty luxury apartments would be a perfect symbol of that misuse of capital and the contrast of those empty apartments with the existence of the desperate homeless would reveal, in a very clear way, how that isolation, desperation, and fear exists and that a politician would be wise to use that obvious symbol to communicate that vital message to a larger audience.

Quote

So tell me, how do you craft your socialist utopia to help this person?

Institute social programs much like the ones you're describing, all of which are important, but reactive. More important is to look at the economic and social conditions that led these people to where they are and ensure that they never fall that far to begin with. UBI, universal healthcare (including mental care), jobs guarantee, all beginning from when they are kids and when drugs and alcohol were not something they needed to cope with their isolation and failure.

As our good comrade Trotsky told us,

"Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie and the bands of declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat -- all the countless human beings whom finance capital itself has brought to desperation and frenzy."

12 minutes ago, EuroHorn said:

It’s a battle to determine who is more sanctimonious 

This is 100% correct.

It's what 10% of organization meetings turn into when one of the old guys starts waving around books about liberation theology and telling anecdotes about Catholic work communes in Latin America or when someone visiting from a more progressive city is so horrified by the local red (bad kind of red, not good kind) government they vent their frustrations on local organizers and make everyone hate each other.

[RDCanecutter 26250]

Pretty sure my [discrete number of] Puerto Rican friends would classify OC as Nuyorican.

I'd have mercy on the Ohio Mexicana though. That's a weight to carry.

[Huckleberry 32699]

22 minutes ago, deadshank said:

I did not miss your post.  I had to go to the airport to pick up the missus.  Sorry for the delay.

Yes, I think Puerto Ricans are Americans. 

Then your initial post in this sequence made zero sense, which was the only thing everyone else was saying.

[deadshank 24651]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

Then your initial post in this sequence made zero sense, which was the only thing everyone else was saying.

We could argue that for a while.  No one would win.  Interesting discussion.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

 

[RDCanecutter 26250]

10 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

I'm BurgerShopA, you're BurgerShop B. You and I already manage the efficiencies of our businesses to increase profits. Uh oh, the COMMUNISTS have raised the minimum wage. Now my personnel costs have increased. I "pass it on to my customers" and now my burger costs $7 when it used to cost $5. You raise your burger price to $6 and cut your spending in other areas (like the ones outlined above).

Which one of us will succeed?

 

Neither. BurgerShop Canecutter will put you both out of business with fresher, better-tasting $8 burgers that people will find out about when they come in for our loss-leader $1 Bucket-o-Fries. Why? Because we will be grilling onions in the back and pumping the smell out with fans, oldest carney food trick in the book. We will also hire cheerful fat people and give them a food discount that still allows us a hefty profit. We won't need extra customers, we'll basically be hiring our own.

But we'll get extra customers. Grilled onions.

[wildcat09 29237]

2 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Neither. BurgerShop Canecutter will put you both out of business with fresher, better-tasting $8 burgers that people will find out about when they come in for our loss-leader $1 Bucket-o-Fries. Why? Because we will be grilling onions in the back and pumping the smell out with fans, oldest carney food trick in the book. We will also hire cheerful fat people and give them a food discount that still allows us a hefty profit. We won't need extra customers, we'll basically be hiring our own.

But we'll get extra customers. Grilled onions.

Why the hell haven't you already opened up in Houston?

[RDCanecutter 26250]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

Why the hell haven't you already opened up in Houston?

I'm too damn lazy.

[Post Oak 20184]

9 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Neither. BurgerShop Canecutter will put you both out of business with fresher, better-tasting $8 burgers that people will find out about when they come in for our loss-leader $1 Bucket-o-Fries. Why? Because we will be grilling onions in the back and pumping the smell out with fans, oldest carney food trick in the book. We will also hire cheerful fat people and give them a food discount that still allows us a hefty profit. We won't need extra customers, we'll basically be hiring our own.

But we'll get extra customers. Grilled onions.

Yeah but youll have to go to alabama to get it

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

[Hank Kingsley 20680]

 

[Orca of Peace 109]

the Israeli fanatics have been pushing her hard to change her wording about Palestine and the "occupation" and it's working well. She's changed under presser on that topic. I think she'll be pressured to change on other things as well.

[Ghost of LL 15483]

10 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

 

They're not unrelated; they are both indictments of a broken economic system. And since she's a Democratic Socialist, it makes sense that she would want to make that point.

I've been a DSA member for two years now (May 2016).

Somebody wake me when the "Democratic Socialists" become actual socialists.  Right now, they're just talking a bunch of social-justice issues--things unions and the Catholic Church have been preaching for decades.  

When they get serious about seizing the means of production, then I'll get interested.*

 

 

 

 

 

* Not interested in supporting, mind you.  Just interested in that it is something different.

[maninblack 7974]

Yes. Health insurance should be decoupled from employment. 100%.

Totally agree. Now what happens after we significantly disagree.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

30 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It's almost like the entire social and economic system itself is designed to constantly pound desperation and fear into our minds.

It's almost like swaths of empty luxury apartments would be a perfect symbol of that misuse of capital and the contrast of those empty apartments with the existence of the desperate homeless would reveal, in a very clear way, how that isolation, desperation, and fear exists and that a politician would be wise to use that obvious symbol to communicate that vital message to a larger audience.

Institute social programs much like the ones you're describing, all of which are important, but reactive. More important is to look at the economic and social conditions that led these people to where they are and ensure that they never fall that far to begin with. UBI, universal healthcare (including mental care), jobs guarantee, all beginning from when they are kids and when drugs and alcohol were not something they needed to cope with their isolation and failure.

As our good comrade Trotsky told us,

"Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie and the bands of declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat -- all the countless human beings whom finance capital itself has brought to desperation and frenzy."

This is 100% correct.

It's what 10% of organization meetings turn into when one of the old guys starts waving around books about liberation theology and telling anecdotes about Catholic work communes in Latin America or when someone visiting from a more progressive city is so horrified by the local red (bad kind of red, not good kind) government they vent their frustrations on local organizers and make everyone hate each other.

You could try to sober up a homeless person, get him a job, put him in a luxury highrise.  He's still gonna be sitting there by himself and find life pointless and want to go back to the bottle or eat a bullet instead.  You really have no clue about what homeless addicts feel.  The same person will feel desperation in your utopia.  They feel desperation primarily out of loneliness.  They could clean up and get a ditchdigging job now, or your communist utopia could assign them to ditchdigging.  Either way, existence will feel bleak for them.  And in reality, NYC already gives them exactly what you think they need.  The only way you can actually help them is if you leave the protest and instead go fucking talk to them, befriend them, and show them they can be part of a society rather than a lonely individual who works a pointless job every day.

Drug and alcohol use is also high among wealthy people.  The idea that depression or loneliness is rooted in poverty is wrong.  Suicide rates are higher among children of middle to upper class parents.  For most homeless addicts, the addiction occurred prior to, and was often the cause of, loss of employment or loss of family.  Most of the mentally ill adults you see on the street also had access to mental healthcare when they were growing up, and parents who took them to psychiatrists.  Still, they eventually walked right out the door and onto the streets.  Many of them have parents who have tried to bring them home multiple times.  Yet forced institutionalization does not occur.  It is difficult for even the parents of an adult schizophrenic to get court authorization to medicated their adult child against his/her will.

In the past, the city would round up homeless people, some of them not particularly mentally ill, and lock them away on what is now Roosevelt Island nearly permanently.  Most of the USA did the same.  This is in large part why Trumpists think the 50s were grand.  Mentally ill people were forcibly put out of sight and out of mind, and then they were legitimately tortured in mental hospitals.  And the USSR did a lot worse than we did to the mentally ill.  We should not strive to be fascist.  We should be a modern socialist country.  Part of this means that we can and should build a robust healthcare system, we can build homeless shelters and low income housing, we can have jobs available for everyone, but we can't make a person utilize any of these things if they choose not to. 

And that also means that if we desire to be a just socialist country, there will always be people who choose addiction or to live on the streets.  Even if we provide basic income for everyone, there will be some who will spend all of it on drugs and alcohol.  Others will gamble it away.  When we have universal healthcare, some people will never set foot in a doctors office until they have untreatable cancer.  I'm sure your fascist world view would have these people forcefully housed somewhere, force fed, force medicated, and then put in a chain gang to fulfill your "job guarantee."  But as someone that is to the left of you, however, I'd prefer a socialist "utopia" without the right wing authoritarian trappings you seem to want to add.

[David Dennison 18655]

6 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Someone needs to tell Congressman DeSantis that socialism works in plenty of places, including the United States.   

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, FondrenRoad said:

You could try to sober up a homeless person, get him a job, put him in a luxury highrise.  He's still gonna be sitting there by himself and find life pointless and want to go back to the bottle or eat a bullet instead.  You really have no clue about what homeless addicts feel.  The same person will feel desperation in your utopia.  They feel desperation primarily out of loneliness.  They could clean up and get a ditchdigging job now, or your communist utopia could assign them to ditchdigging.  Either way, existence will feel bleak for them.  And in reality, NYC already gives them exactly what you think they need.  The only way you can actually help them is if you leave the protest and instead go fucking talk to them, befriend them, and show them they can be part of a society rather than a lonely individual who works a pointless job every day.

Drug and alcohol use is also high among wealthy people.  The idea that depression or loneliness is rooted in poverty is wrong.  Suicide rates are higher among children of middle to upper class parents.  For most homeless addicts, the addiction occurred prior to, and was often the cause of, loss of employment or loss of family.  Most of the mentally ill adults you see on the street also had access to mental healthcare when they were growing up, and parents who took them to psychiatrists.  Still, they eventually walked right out the door and onto the streets.  Many of them have parents who have tried to bring them home multiple times.  Yet forced institutionalization does not occur.  It is difficult for even the parents of an adult schizophrenic to get court authorization to medicated their adult child against his/her will.

In the past, the city would round up homeless people, some of them not particularly mentally ill, and lock them away on what is now Roosevelt Island nearly permanently.  Most of the USA did the same.  This is in large part why Trumpists think the 50s were grand.  Mentally ill people were forcibly put out of sight and out of mind, and then they were legitimately tortured in mental hospitals.  And the USSR did a lot worse than we did to the mentally ill.  We should not strive to be fascist.  We should be a modern socialist country.  Part of this means that we can and should build a robust healthcare system, we can build homeless shelters and low income housing, we can have jobs available for everyone, but we can't make a person utilize any of these things if they choose not to. 

And that also means that if we desire to be a just socialist country, there will always be people who choose addiction or to live on the streets.  Even if we provide basic income for everyone, there will be some who will spend all of it on drugs and alcohol.  Others will gamble it away.  When we have universal healthcare, some people will never set foot in a doctors office until they have untreatable cancer.  I'm sure your fascist world view would have these people forcefully housed somewhere, force fed, force medicated, and then put in a chain gang to fulfill your "job guarantee."  But as someone that is to the left of you, however, I'd prefer a socialist "utopia" without the right wing authoritarian trappings you seem to want to add.

You didn't even read anything I wrote, did you? What did I actually say (not the fantasy me in your head, but the actual me writing words here) specifically that leads you to believe I want..

- assigning people to ditch digging

- forcefully house people

- forcefully feed people

- put people in a chain gang

Nice meltdown.

[Js1 85104]

6 minutes ago, maninblack said:

Totally agree. Now what happens after we significantly disagree.

Don't agree with me! You're wrong even though I have no idea your position!  Agreements aren't allowed anymore!

[Huckleberry 32699]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Someone needs to tell Congressman DeSantis that socialism works in plenty of places, including the United States.   

I wonder if he's in favor of eliminating Social Security benefits being paid out in his home state of Florida. I mean, he hates entitlement programs right? That should be popular in his run for governor of Florida.

[Fozzz 152]

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

She really is the new Hillary.

(Based on the right wing propaganda)

Edited July 24, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Js1 85104]

I fucking love these unhinged weirdos get triggered by her.  That how you know she's right and they're wrong.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Pocohantas wasn’t cutting it so they’ve moved on to younger and more vulnerable prey.

[bad_teammate 13132]

So true.

Dems are bad.

13 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Wait, mental illness and alcohol/drug use are indictments of a broken economic system?

Both absolutely can be, yes.

Lack of access to medical care. People turning to alcohol and drugs as they lose control of their financial lives.

This isn't complicated, and if you weren't playing a game of hysterical escalation (a'la Fondren) you would be able to see that pretty clearly.

Quote

Btw, I hope bad_teammate is building up to advocating for something like allowing trespassers to occupy privately owned property as squatters indefinitely and without consequence (like the leftists in urban Spain want).  Don’t hold back and be coy, b_t.  Let your freak flag fly!  Tell us what to do with those vacant apartments.

- UBI

- Jobs guarantee

- Rent controlled housing

It's not about wanting to do anything with the luxury apartments. You guys are obsessed with this idea of black bagging a guy on heroin and throwing him into an abandoned luxury apartment. Who here is talking about that?

Edited July 24, 2018 by bad_teammate

[David Dennison 18655]

8 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

This is really funny because she's going to win and be seated in a House of Representatives controlled by Democrats.

[RDCanecutter 26250]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It's not about wanting to do anything with the luxury apartments. You guys are obsessed with this idea of black bagging a guy on heroin and throwing him into an abandoned luxury apartment. Who here is talking about that?

Be cooler if you were. Imagine crony-industrialist Chinese Commie granddaughter coming home to heroin guy in luxury apartment. Staccato screams all around.

[Js1 85104]

 

[David Dennison 18655]

A lot of these ideas from the left are extremely popular. The Democrats need to campaign on them relentlessly.

Edited July 24, 2018 by David Dennison

[FondrenRoad 4378]

59 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

You didn't even read anything I wrote, did you? What did I actually say (not the fantasy me in your head, but the actual me writing words here) specifically that leads you to believe I want..

- assigning people to ditch digging

- forcefully house people

- forcefully feed people

- put people in a chain gang

Nice meltdown.

Because you don't understand addiction, mental illness, or homelessness.  I've told you multiple times now that NYC already provides your entire list of socialist dreams to homeless people.  The only thing NYC doesn't do is force homeless people to use them.  And since you keep doubling down, I can only believe that you want them forced into housing and jobs against their will because that is really the only thing left we can do for them.

I mean, you could just say "Its great that NYC provides that, so even while I love O-C, I understand she is wrong in conflating homelessness in NYC with apartment vacancies, and perhaps she lacks an understanding of the services currently available to the homeless in NYC.  Her heart is in the right place, and perhaps with a better understanding, she can help NYC's programs become federal programs.  However, in spite of NYC having the most robust homeless outreach and shelter program in the United States, we still need to figure out how to reach out to the mentally ill in a better way."

But you don't say that.  Instead you double down on idiocy.  You also, like O-C, get caught up in catchphrases when you say shit like "Crowley didn't want "Medicare for all" until the primary!" Thats because he wanted single payer universal healthcare.  You know, the same fucking thing.  "He doesn't want to abolish ICE!"  No, he wanted them to stop their gestapo tactics, but understands that some agency will be handling immigration enforcement and he doesn't really care what acronym they operate under.  He only cares that they operate in a humane and just manner.  But O-C actually knows all that, and she even recognized that in her debates.  She just uses buzzwords to play people like you like a fiddle because you're the left wing equivalent of a rube who loves the sound of "Make America Great Again!"  But while you're a useful idiot, she needs to start actually studying up and putting plans, like the ones already in place in NYC, behind her catchphrases.

Also, people with their wits about them who appear homeless and are panhandling, aren't usually homeless.  They are able to pull in over 100 dollars a day on a typical day, and unlike you and me, their income is tax free.  And in the summer, there are always exponentially more people on the streets doing this. And they will never come to a shelter when you offer to take them.

But hey, I only volunteer to do homeless outreach and also volunteer regularly at family shelters.  She volunteered for Bernie, and protests, so she must know more about the homeless.

Edited July 24, 2018 by FondrenRoad

[bad_teammate 13132]

5 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Because you don't understand addiction, mental illness, or homelessness.  I've told you multiple times now that NYC already provides your entire list of socialist dreams to homeless people.  The only thing NYC doesn't do is force homeless people to use them.  And since you keep doubling down, I can only believe that you want them forced into housing and jobs against their will because that is really the only thing left we can do for them.

That's not the only thing NYC doesn't do. I wonder what the NYC DSA chapter would think about the characterization of NY as an embodiment of socialist utopia. I have a feeling you either don't organize with socialists or you reserve this ridiculous rhetoric for the Internet.

Quote

I mean, you could just say "Its great that NYC provides that, so even while I love O-C, I understand she is wrong in conflating homelessness in NYC with apartment vacancies, and perhaps she lacks an understanding of the services currently available to the homeless in NYC.  Her heart is in the right place, and perhaps with a better understanding, she can help NYC's programs become federal programs.  However, in spite of NYC having the most robust homeless outreach and shelter program in the United States, we still need to figure out how to reach out to the mentally ill in a better way."

If you can quote AOC saying that we should put the homeless into the luxury apartments then sure, I'll say that seems like a reactionary and fruitless idea. You're asking me to take your word that she's an idiot, but since all I see is you lying about my arguments incessantly, I think you can understand why I might need a few direct quotes.

And besides, you sanctimonious, lying moron, I already said this...

Institute social programs much like the ones you're describing, all of which are important, but reactive. More important is to look at the economic and social conditions that led these people to where they are and ensure that they never fall that far to begin with. UBI, universal healthcare (including mental care), jobs guarantee, all beginning from when they are kids and when drugs and alcohol were not something they needed to cope with their isolation and failure.

As our good comrade Trotsky told us,

"Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie and the bands of declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat -- all the countless human beings whom finance capital itself has brought to desperation and frenzy."

Quote

You also, like O-C, get caught up in catchphrases when you say shit like "Crowley didn't want "Medicare for all" until the primary!" Thats because he wanted single payer universal healthcare.  You know, the same fucking thing.  "He doesn't want to abolish ICE!"  

When did I say either of those things? Jesus Christ, you're mentally ill.

If you want to scream at AOC go find her or, better yet, go to the next NYC DSA meeting and talk to them. Why the fuck are you working out your AOC rage on me?

Quote

Also, people with their wits about them who appear homeless and are panhandling, aren't usually homeless.

Great, what the fuck does this have to do with anything I've said?

[bad_teammate 13132]

"Why did you say we should put Joe Crowley in a giant Juicero and feed his essence to the homeless!? WHY DID YOU SAY IT!?!" - Fondren, probably

[edit]

I went ahead and did your homework for you. I never said anything about Crowley re: ICE or Medicare. That was someone else.

Edited July 24, 2018 by bad_teammate

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

That's not the only thing NYC doesn't do. I wonder what the NYC DSA chapter would think about the characterization of NY as an embodiment of socialist utopia. I have a feeling you either don't organize with socialists or you reserve this ridiculous rhetoric for the Internet.

If you can quote AOC saying that we should put the homeless into the luxury apartments then sure, I'll say that seems like a reactionary and fruitless idea. You're asking me to take your word that she's an idiot, but since all I see is you lying about my arguments incessantly, I think you can understand why I might need a few direct quotes.

And besides, you sanctimonious, lying moron, I already said this...

Institute social programs much like the ones you're describing, all of which are important, but reactive. More important is to look at the economic and social conditions that led these people to where they are and ensure that they never fall that far to begin with. UBI, universal healthcare (including mental care), jobs guarantee, all beginning from when they are kids and when drugs and alcohol were not something they needed to cope with their isolation and failure.

As our good comrade Trotsky told us,

"Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie and the bands of declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat -- all the countless human beings whom finance capital itself has brought to desperation and frenzy."

When did I say either of those things? Jesus Christ, you're mentally ill.

If you want to scream at AOC go find her or, better yet, go to the next NYC DSA meeting and talk to them. Why the fuck are you working out your AOC rage on me?

Great, what the fuck does this have to do with anything I've said?

What started this all was an article where O-C lamented the fact that there were enough vacant apartments to bed all homeless people, yet we still have homeless people.  Scroll back up and read it.  I suppose I added the "luxury" part because luxury units are actually the only ones with vacancies right now.  This whole time I've explained to you why she and you are wrong.  I've explained that NYC has a place for every single homeless person to go already without even putting a single one in a privately owned vacant apartment.

And I do know people in the NYC DSA chapter.  They canvass for elections.  They go to protest.  None of them actually volunteer for the needy.  The ones I know also make middle class income and lament rising rents in Manhattan and waterfront communities in Brooklyn and Queens.  Their primary demand is for affordable housing in specific neighborhoods where they, and everyone else, wants to be.  They completely ignore the fact that there are plenty of affordable neighborhoods that easily fit their budgets in other parts of Brooklyn and Queens, as well as the Bronx and Staten Island.  And from any of those places, they can get to wherever they want to go in NYC for the same $2.75 fare.  But they don't want to pay $750 a month for an apartment in College Point, Marine Park, or even less than that in most of Staten Island and the Bronx.  No, they want to pay $750 a month to live in Williamsburg.  They don't want a $1 cup of coffee from a bodega.  They want the $7 artisanal coffee shop to sell them coffee for $1.  But you know, comrade, that we can't fit 8 million people in Williamsburg no matter what we do.

They're also not looking for authoritarian rule like your good comrade Trotsky adored.  Neither is O-C.  You don't seem to be a Democratic Socialist.  You seem more of a fascist communist.

And again, there is no way to eliminate mental illness or addiction or poor choices.  They will always occur.  Depression and addiction levels were monumentally higher in the USSR than they are/were here.  They also rounded up and jailed addicts and mentally ill people who were on the streets.  Your bullshit about reactive or proactive remedies is just that.  Bullshit. You either provide options for people or you don't.  My city provides them. 

The economic and social conditions for the most destitute non-mentally ill homeless people go something like this.  Guy has a job.  Quite often a very good job.  Guy has a partner.  Guy drinks a lot but is functional.  Guy gets partner pregnant and she has his kid.  Guy is depressed.  Guy drinks more.  Guy hits partner.  Guy maybe hits kid too.  Guy drinks more.  Guy loses his job.  Guy drinks away what savings they had.  Partner kicks guy out.  Guy is now drinking to pass out from the moment he wakes up each day.   What's your pro-active solution for the "economic and social conditions" that led to this guy's demise? 

Now I can tell you this.  My volunteer work primarily deals with the mother and child left in the wake of this man's addiction.  They get shelter.  They get school.   They get food. They get day care.  The mother gets job training and placement.  It usually works out well for that side of the equation in the end.  But I've also tried to help the "guys" in this situation as well.  It is often impossible.  And its impossible because he can never get back to where he was in his mind.  When he drinks, he forgets about it.  But when he doesn't drink, he's not only alone, but has to live with his past mistakes. 

Now for the mentally ill, its usually a different and worse scenario, but again, people need to actually want to be better if they are going to be better.  However, it isn't "economic and social conditions" that put them there either.  Its mental illness and the non-authoritarian idea that even the mentally ill are allowed to choose whether they get care.

Really, you should put more time in volunteering for the needy and actually understanding their issues and how they arise, and less time protesting and volunteering for political campaigns.  Quite a lot of people were fucking miserable in the USSR.  We want something better than we have, not worse.  You'd also understand that happiness and economics aren't entirely linked if you got out and really met the people you claim to want to help through socialism.  

[FondrenRoad 4378]

50 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"Why did you say we should put Joe Crowley in a giant Juicero and feed his essence to the homeless!? WHY DID YOU SAY IT!?!" - Fondren, probably

[edit]

I went ahead and did your homework for you. I never said anything about Crowley re: ICE or Medicare. That was someone else.

So I got two people who wrongly believe that O-C and Crowley had different platforms confused.

To dropouts credit though, he didn't double and triple down on his mistake.  You're still here saying the same wrong bullshit over and over.  Its excessively clear that you've never once volunteered to assist the homeless, so its perfectly fine to admit that you're completely fucking clueless on how most homeless people find themselves where they are.  Its also fine to admit that we're doing just about as much as we can do for them in NYC.   

[EMAWesome 101]

3 hours ago, FondrenRoad said:

Yep. But the biggest danger to our country right now is one that doesnt get much play.  The intentional destruction of our public school systems by the GOP.

The GOP is too incompetent to intentionally destroy their underwear after eating at Taco Bell.  They are plenty capable of destroying something when they try to save it but they have no ability to intentionally destroy anything.

[RDCanecutter 26250]

12 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

The GOP is too incompetent to intentionally destroy their underwear after eating at Taco Bell.  They are plenty capable of destroying something when they try to save it but they have no ability to intentionally destroy anything.

Explain modern country music to me then.

[bad_teammate 13132]

I'm impressed with your ability to just bulldoze past being caught in obvious lies. Recently I completely fucked up the Kennedy family tree connections. I wasn't lying, because I was operating out of ignorance and not actually mischaracterizing someone else's arguments, but I fucked it up and looked like (and was) a huge moron.

I am a super huge, self-righteous, annoying asshole who thinks he's a genius and right about everything, and EVEN I recognized my fuck-up and owned it. And that's me, the ultimate prick.

You've spent pages and pages purposefully mischaracterizing my arguments and then are caught flat-out fabricating quotes and it doesn't even phase you. You don't even pause.

I didn't think it was fucking possible for me to lose a sanctimonious asshole contest, but here we are.

15 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

What started this all was an article where O-C lamented the fact that there were enough vacant apartments to bed all homeless people, yet we still have homeless people.

That is a fact worth lamenting.

What you and (not coincidentally) a bunch of right-wingers immediately read into that is a desire to shove the homeless into those apartments. Now, if AOC did actually say that, quote her and I'll agree that it's misguided thinking. Until then, your word is worth nothing.

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I've explained that NYC has a place for every single homeless person to go already without even putting a single one in a privately owned vacant apartment.

A cot in a homeless shelter != "a place to go" in any dignified sense that one would consider having an actual home. It's a palliative.

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And I do know people in the NYC DSA chapter.  They canvass for elections.  They go to protest.  None of them actually volunteer for the needy.

Not one, huh? Is this yet another instance of you just making shit up? lol

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 The ones I know also make middle class income and lament rising rents in Manhattan and waterfront communities in Brooklyn and Queens.  Their primary demand is for affordable housing in specific neighborhoods where they, and everyone else, wants to be.  They completely ignore the fact that there are plenty of affordable neighborhoods that easily fit their budgets in other parts of Brooklyn and Queens, as well as the Bronx and Staten Island.  And from any of those places, they can get to wherever they want to go in NYC for the same $2.75 fare.  But they don't want to pay $750 a month for an apartment in College Point, Marine Park, or even less than that in most of Staten Island and the Bronx.  No, they want to pay $750 a month to live in Williamsburg.  They don't want a $1 cup of coffee from a bodega.  They want the $7 artisanal coffee shop to sell them coffee for $1.  But you know, comrade, that we can't fit 8 million people in Williamsburg no matter what we do.

It's so weird that you sound just like an "AVOCADO TOAST!!!" Republican. It's strange.

The terminus of all of your rhetorical roads is your own nobility. lol

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You don't seem to be a Democratic Socialist.  You seem more of a fascist communist.

Based on... what?

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Bullshit. You either provide options for people or you don't.  My city provides them. 

Why do you talk about NYC's social welfare provisions as if you're the one responsible for them?

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The economic and social conditions for the most destitute non-mentally ill homeless people go something like this.  Guy has a job.  Quite often a very good job.  Guy has a partner.  Guy drinks a lot but is functional.  Guy gets partner pregnant and she has his kid.  Guy is depressed.  Guy drinks more.  Guy hits partner.  Guy maybe hits kid too.  Guy drinks more.  Guy loses his job.  Guy drinks away what savings they had.  Partner kicks guy out.  Guy is now drinking to pass out from the moment he wakes up each day.   What's your pro-active solution for the "economic and social conditions" that led to this guy's demise? 

Why is the guy depressed?

- Universal healthcare with free mental health screenings and treatment for his depression.
- UBI so the stress of him losing his job doesn't impact his family so hard and doesn't increase his desperation.

I've already said this. It's in the paragraph I already re-quoted. I guess I'll go ahead and do it again:

nstitute social programs much like the ones you're describing, all of which are important, but reactive. More important is to look at the economic and social conditions that led these people to where they are and ensure that they never fall that far to begin with. UBI, universal healthcare (including mental care), jobs guarantee, all beginning from when they are kids and when drugs and alcohol were not something they needed to cope with their isolation and failure.

As our good comrade Trotsky told us,

"Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie and the bands of declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat -- all the countless human beings whom finance capital itself has brought to desperation and frenzy."

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Quite a lot of people were fucking miserable in the USSR. 

Why do you keep referencing the conditions of the USSR?

[bad_teammate 13132]

Fondren, a word of advice from one asshole to another.

Sometimes you take a breath and think, "Maybe I need to go back and read the other guy's actual words in a dispassionate way." then you do that and try to address the words being typed instead of the character you've created in your head.

It's hard, because you and I are assholes, but sometimes it's important to do.

Edited July 24, 2018 by bad_teammate

[Post Oak 20184]

They hate women

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I am a super huge, self-righteous, annoying asshole who thinks he's a genius and right about everything, and EVEN I recognized my fuck-up and owned it. And that's me, the ultimate prick.

Glad you are getting it.  You are a prick.

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

That is a fact worth lamenting.

What you and (not coincidentally) a bunch of right-wingers immediately read into that is a desire to shove the homeless into those apartments. Now, if AOC did actually say that, quote her and I'll agree that it's misguided thinking. Until then, your word is worth nothing.

There is no other point in pointing out apartment vacancies while talking about the homeless.  If someone says 2+2, the natural answer to that is 4.

 

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

A cot in a homeless shelter != "a place to go" in any dignified sense that one would consider having an actual home. It's a palliative.

First, family shelters all have private rooms.  Many women's and men's shelters do as well.  Second, these facilities are stepping stones to subsidized housing.  Still, you've clearly never set foot in one anywhere.  You're far too big of an asshole to not say so if you had.  So again, you're fucking clueless about the homeless.  You're focusing on "single night" or "day one" shelters that are a refuge when weather is bad.  These exist, but they are not the shelters where people who no longer want to be homeless go. 

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Not one, huh? Is this yet another instance of you just making shit up? lol

It's so weird that you sound just like an "AVOCADO TOAST!!!" Republican. It's strange.

The terminus of all of your rhetorical roads is your own nobility. lol

I never claimed to know every NYC DSA member.  I said the ones that I know don't volunteer for the needy.  As far as I know, even O-C herself is big on protests and campaigns, and not so big on actual volunteer work. Pretty sure she has a Brooklyn hipster boyfriend even.  And even in the article, she talked about seeing a lot of homeless people.  Did she even talk to a single one of them about their predicament and how it came to pass, or try to help them get to where they can have shelter and sustenance?  I hope so, but it doesn't seem so.

 

13 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Why is the guy depressed?

- Universal healthcare with free mental health screenings and treatment for his depression.
- UBI so the stress of him losing his job doesn't impact his family so hard and doesn't increase his desperation

He's depressed because he's depressed.  You still really have no clue at all how addiction works.  What you don't understand is that he is treating his depression with alcohol.  UBI won't even fix him because he will simply drink it all away. 

You also keep applying the crap system you have in Texas to NYC.  NYC has free access to mental health care.  I do really hope O-C knows this even though you don't.  Most of our services are advertised all over the subway system. Here:

https://nycwell.cityofnewyork.us/en/

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/health/health-topics/crisis-emergency-services.page

Health Insurance for all?

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/health/health-topics/health-insurance.page

Free meals for children?

http://www.schoolfoodnyc.org/sch_search/summermeals.aspx

28 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

As our good comrade Trotsky told us,

"Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie and the bands of declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat -- all the countless human beings whom finance capital itself has brought to desperation and frenzy."

Yeah, you've said this a few times.  Trotsky was also a fucking fascist himself.   Its why I said you seem to be a fascist communist and why I reference the conditions of the USSR.  Are you aware of what the Soviet's did to the mentally ill?  I mean, we certainly wouldn't have them on the streets if we did what they did.  If you want to be considered democratic socialist then quit quoting fascist communists.  O-C is not a communist and she does not support the nationalization of all industry.  You really are a bad teammate for her.

 

30 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Institute social programs much like the ones you're describing, all of which are important, but reactive. More important is to look at the economic and social conditions that led these people to where they are and ensure that they never fall that far to begin with. UBI, universal healthcare (including mental care), jobs guarantee, all beginning from when they are kids and when drugs and alcohol were not something they needed to cope with their isolation and failure.

Again, see above.  You simply don't understand depression and addiction at all.  Perhaps you also don't understand the difference between being alone and loneliness.  For the most destitute people, the problem is not economic.  The problem just is.  Its existence itself in any form.  He fucked up the job he had as it is.  He's isolated because he fucked up his family.  He wouldn't show up at the guaranteed job you give him, and if he did, he'd be completely useless at it because he wouldn't be sober.

Buckaroo Banzai said it best, oddly enough, "No matter where you go, there you are."  Most of these people are trying to run away from themselves, and they would be doing so under any economic or government system.  

[FondrenRoad 4378]

45 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Fondren, a word of advice from one asshole to another.

Sometimes you take a breath and think, "Maybe I need to go back and read the other guy's actual words in a dispassionate way." then you do that and try to address the words being typed instead of the character you've created in your head.

It's hard, because you and I are assholes, but sometimes it's important to do.

I agree that we are both assholes.  The primary problem we are having is that you don't really understand addiction, depression, other mental illness, or why homelessness typically occurs.  You could just admit that and we'd be done here already.

And since we are talking about NYC homelessness and a NYC candidate, NYC's current services are completely applicable to the discussion.

There is one single thing that you've suggested that isn't already available in NYC.  UBI.  And I do support that.  I'm actually not sure whether O-C  supports it though.  Her platform on the website is nearly all existing NYC programs whether she knows that or not. 

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

Man, I gotta get me a spot in one of these homeless shelters. They sound fucking awesome. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

2 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

The primary problem we are having is that you don't really understand addiction, depression, other mental illness, or why homelessness typically occurs.

What words have I used to give you this impression?

11 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

There is no other point in pointing out apartment vacancies while talking about the homeless.

It's a clear illustration of how broken capitalism is. Other people are not responsible for bad conclusions that you draw from there. Take responsibility.

Quote

First, family shelters all have private rooms.  Many women's and men's shelters do as well.  Second, these facilities are stepping stones to subsidized housing.  Still, you've clearly never set foot in one anywhere.  You're far too big of an asshole to not say so if you had.  So again, you're fucking clueless about the homeless.  You're focusing on "single night" or "day one" shelters that are a refuge when weather is bad.  These exist, but they are not the shelters where people who no longer want to be homeless go. 

Stepping stones. The vulnerable tend to have a hard time hopping from one stone to another successfully. It's why they are there in the first place.

Quote

Yeah, you've said this a few times.  Trotsky was also a fucking fascist himself.   Its why I said you seem to be a fascist communist and why I reference the conditions of the USSR.

So by quoting Trotsky's completely correct description of the impact of finance capital on the people I am advocating fascism? You're mentally ill.

Quote

For the most destitute people, the problem is not economic.  The problem just is.  Its existence itself in any form.  He fucked up the job he had as it is.  He's isolated because he fucked up his family.  He wouldn't show up at the guaranteed job you give him, and if he did, he'd be completely useless at it because he wouldn't be sober.

If intervention into the lives of the mentally ill is so pointless, why are you so excited about the NYC social programs meant to intervene into their lives?

Quote

Buckaroo Banzai said it best, oddly enough, "No matter where you go, there you are."  Most of these people are trying to run away from themselves, and they would be doing so under any economic or government system.  

Broke: Quoting Trotsky on the state of the people alienated in a finance capital system.
Woke: Quoting horrible 1980s sci-fi movies to dismiss the mentally ill as fundamentally hopeless.

Quote

Most of these people are trying to run away from themselves, and they would be doing so under any economic or government system.  

Fondren: King of made-up statistics, quotes, and arguments

[bad_teammate 13132]

"WHY WON'T YOU UNGRATEFUL PIECES OF LUMPENPROLE SHIT VALIDATE MY NOBILITY BY ACTING RIGHT!" - A very-class-conscious person

[Doc Sam Beckett 5783]

Will you two fuck already?