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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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elfenix

elfenix 34168

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, longhornmatt said:

I’ll stipulate that proposing single payer healthcare isn’t extreme given its prevalence in much of the western world.

Federal government paying for everyone’s college is extreme.

i dunno that one of those can be not extreme but the other be extreme:

 

Quote

Only one country spends more per student, and that country is Luxembourg—where tuition is nevertheless free for students, thanks to government outlays. In fact, a third of developed countries offer college free of charge to their citizens. (And another third keep tuition very cheap—less than $2,400 a year.) The farther away you get from the United States, the more baffling it looks.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/09/why-is-college-so-expensive-in-america/569884/

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henrygandorf
henrygandorf

oh, and to add, let's offer up a 'comparable' analogy reversal and see how it fits.  who's the aoc of the right?  jim jordan?  matt gaetz? this is basically like if there was a huge earthquake he

henrygandorf
henrygandorf

some people see 99% and consider that absolutism.  i am one of those people. this is not your wife grabbing your cell phone that you left in the other room.  this is not a quick favor.  this is a

RomaVicta
RomaVicta

Yes, of course. She is the only woman or woman of color the left right (edit) focuses their ire on. There are no other examples. Great point. It's really all intellectual and rational. And usually ver

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Brew

Brew 3044

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Are these actual policy proposals from AOC? I know she's talked about them conceptually, but I don't know the specifics of what you're talking about.

I guess it depends on what you mean by absurd.

Big and bold isn't the same as extreme or absurd. We absolutely could, with effort and investment, become oil, coal, and nat-gas free on the grid by 2035 (looking at her issues website). There have been perfectly rational and supported proposals to do so by 2050. It's not a technological issue, so it's not actually an absurdity or impossibility. If we looked at conversion to fully renewable as a true national priority, we could replace fossil fuels on the grid by 2035. Obviously, that is extremely unlikely.

Passenger vehicles? That's thornier, of course, because number of power generation points vs. number of vehicles. There's no way to actually rid the nation of ICE vehicles, but through regulatory efforts, buy-backs, and subsidies, we could absolutely phase out the production and sale of ICE vehicles domestically and replace them with hydrogen or EVs. Like above, an absolute technological possibility, but a logistical nightmare and political Pluto-shot (not even a moonshot, moonshot is too optimistic).

There is a feasible technological reality in which, on January 1st, 2036, the USA's electrical grid is 100% renewable and all new cars sold are EV/hydrogen.

Individually we can debate whether they may all have merit, as a platform it moves you to the extreme because of the sheer cost and breadth of the ideas in my view. Throw in the how we pay for it debate from pages ago and she is on the far left.

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Brew

Brew 3044

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Hey, you there, psst...

When you "both sides" white supremacists and normal politicians, you normalize white supremacists. Stop doing that.

Are you directing that at me because I’m not sure I follow you? I made clear where I stand on the both sides comment.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Brew said:

Individually we can debate whether they may all have merit, as a platform it moves you to the extreme because of the sheer cost and breadth of the ideas in my view. Throw in the how we pay for it debate from pages ago and she is on the far left.

This is what makes talking about the horse race/politics completely pointless. It's not about the discrete ideas, it's about constantly trying to assume what we're doing now is the baseline of moderate centrism and judging every other idea by how far it strays from the situation as it stands at this exact moment.

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EuroHorn

EuroHorn 3204

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

This is what makes talking about the horse race/politics completely pointless. It's not about the discrete ideas, it's about constantly trying to assume what we're doing now is the baseline of moderate centrism and judging every other idea by how far it strays from the situation as it stands at this exact moment.

In your view, groverat...

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NBMisha

NBMisha 224

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, EuroHorn said:

In your view, groverat...

Case in point, when I entered UT in 1972, the state subsidized my tuition and fee's by 90%.  That first semester bill was $50 for tuition and $114 total.  The difference between 90% susidy and 100 % is small.  What sort of ball crushing socialism was that?  We did it before, for decades, and we can do it in the future.

By the way, it isn't free tuition for all, it is heavily subsidized public college, available for all who want that path and can qualify.  That is very far from all..

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GSU&UT

GSU&UT 1798

Posted
Posted
Just now, Hank Kingsley said:

I'm happy there is infighting in the Democratic Party. It absolutely needs to happen.

The risk is 4 more years of Trump, and how that happens is the establishment winning out.  I wish the fight could wait, but it can't. The Schumers of the world have to go. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I worry this can fracture the party in a bad way and let Trump get re-elected, but so many of these pieces of corporate/neo-liberal shit need to get pushed out or forced to reevaluate their positions.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

 

AOC has already accomplished more as a congressperson than 90% of the democrats in office. 

When are these democrats going to get their shit together and realize the game has changed?  They can't just sit on their asses anymore and oppose the republicans all day. 

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 20635

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, GSU&UT said:

Yeah I worry this can fracture the party in a bad way and let Trump get re-elected, but so many of these pieces of corporate/neo-liberal shit need to get pushed out or forced to reevaluate their positions.

Establishment Democrats think anti-Trump rhetoric is good enough. It's not. 

The Democratic Party will be at war before November 2020. Hopefully the olds are defeated. 

 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

Posted
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

Yeah I worry this can fracture the party in a bad way and let Trump get re-elected, but so many of these pieces of corporate/neo-liberal shit need to get pushed out or forced to reevaluate their positions.

I hate that everyone is so afraid of a Trump re-election that they're thinking about compromising to the corporate power just to minimize the pain.  In many ways, the opposition to Trump is the only thing holding the democrats together. 

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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thrillhammer

thrillhammer 683

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

I'm happy there is infighting in the Democratic Party. It absolutely needs to happen.

The risk is 4 more years of Trump, and how that happens is the establishment winning out.  I wish the fight could wait, but it can't. The Schumers of the world have to go. 

 

 

 

 

and the mcconnells?

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

AOC has already accomplished more as a congressperson than 90% of the democrats in office. 

When are these democrats going to get their shit together and realize the game has changed?  They can't just sit on their asses anymore and oppose the republicans all day. 

Then I suppose you won't mind listing her concrete successes here for us.  

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thrillhammer

thrillhammer 683

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I hate that everyone is so afraid of a Trump re-election that they're thinking about compromising to the corporate power just minimize the pain.  In many ways, the opposition to Trump is the only thing holding the democrats together. 

it's not as bad as all that, or as bad as the rightwingers want, but certainly there are factions in the party, just like there are in the gop.  aoc needs to earn her chops, she is swinging for the fences way too quick. i'm on the fence about it.  i like her youth and vigor and enthusiasm, so side with her in that sense, that we need to shake things up and rethink positions.  but i side with the establishment in the sense that she doesn't know how washinton works, and in a lot of ways that she doesn't know or appreciate, works well. there are policies and procedures and decorum and some of those are hogwash but some are not.  

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JimmyHoffa

JimmyHoffa 1188

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

AOC has already accomplished more as a congressperson than 90% of the democrats in office. 

When are these democrats going to get their shit together and realize the game has changed?  They can't just sit on their asses anymore and oppose the republicans all day. 

1st point- Disagree unless you are basing that statement on getting twitter followers and TV interviews

2nd point- 100% agree but they also need to find a happy medium.  If it's all talk and no action well they are right back where they started. I have no problem with AOC being very vocal and "out there" in the public eye but at some point she needs to work with the others in her party (and vice versa) to get shit done or they could be surprised again in 2020. 

 

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GSU&UT

GSU&UT 1798

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Then I suppose you won't mind listing her concrete successes here for us.  

Her views that are held widely by many of us millennials (e.g. universal healthcare, debt reform, climate change reform) are actually pushing the conversation amongst many of the established Democrats left. That is in no uncertain terms a BIG deal.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

Yeah I worry this can fracture the party in a bad way and let Trump get re-elected, but so many of these pieces of corporate/neo-liberal shit need to get pushed out or forced to reevaluate their positions. 

An honest question: Why do you think Trump was elected? What made him attractive?

It is not just racism. Yes, racism motivates a lot of his base, but he got 60+M votes and those 60+M people are not motivated solely or even primarily by racism. I would argue that only a minority of his base is primarily motivated by racial resentment.

There are tens of millions of voters out there who are racist, but it's only #3 or #4 on their list. #1 and #2 are economic fairness and the deep-in-their-bones knowledge that they are being robbed by the bosses and the billionaires; the powerful feeling that they are getting short-changed and that they deserve more services from their government for what they are paying in taxes. They aren't reading Marx and they aren't articulating complex populist ideas, but when someone says, "You are being lied to by the powerful and the establishment elites" they know that is true. The problem in 2016 is that the only person in the general election saying that to them was a con-man who also had a message of white supremacy. (Bernie would've won.)

Those people voted for a black guy named Hussein who inspired them with a vision for a better America. The racist was the only choice we left those people.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Then I suppose you won't mind listing her concrete successes here for us.  

In the pure sense of politics, success is not defined by tangible things like bills or victories.   Politics is the art of influence and influence can't really be measured but you can tell who is or isn't influential.  Trump carried a shitload of political influence before he became president despite having zero concrete political successes (Birther movement).  AOC has a similar influence in seducing the media and using that to push a political agenda.  That's how political revolutions get started. 

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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Message Board User

Message Board User 12389

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

Her views that are held widely by many of us millennials (e.g. universal healthcare, debt reform, climate change reform) are actually pushing the conversation amongst many of the established Democrats left. That is in no uncertain terms a BIG deal.

And some of what she says is true!

 

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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Posted

You say "debt reform".  I assume you're talking about her desire to cancel all student debt?  Otherwise, I haven't read anything from her on the topic of debt.  

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23375

Posted
Posted
Just now, Lobo said:

You say "debt reform".  I assume you're talking about her desire to cancel all student debt?  Otherwise, I haven't read anything from her on the topic of debt.  

How about we at least start by not phasing out deduction of student loan interest. 

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GSU&UT

GSU&UT 1798

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Posted
11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

An honest question: Why do you think Trump was elected? What made him attractive?

It is not just racism. Yes, racism motivates a lot of his base, but he got 60+M votes and those 60+M people are not motivated solely or even primarily by racism. I would argue that only a minority of his base is primarily motivated by racial resentment.

There are tens of millions of voters out there who are racist, but it's only #3 or #4 on their list. #1 and #2 are economic fairness and the deep-in-their-bones knowledge that they are being robbed by the bosses and the billionaires; the powerful feeling that they are getting short-changed and that they deserve more services from their government for what they are paying in taxes. They aren't reading Marx and they aren't articulating complex populist ideas, but when someone says, "You are being lied to by the powerful and the establishment elites" they know that is true. The problem in 2016 is that the only person in the general election saying that to them was a con-man who also had a message of white supremacy. (Bernie would've won.)

Those people voted for a black guy named Hussein who inspired them with a vision for a better America. The racist was the only choice we left those people.

There's a lot to unpack here and I don't have a ton of time, because I think we ultimately share the same views on this.

There has been research that racism did play to a big big (I won't say majority) part of his support. However a ton of this is intertwined because many of these people, as you said, view them getting shortchanged in modern American politics that is dominated by wealthy interests. Many of these same people still support Trump because he's fucking everything up as much as possible right now, I do not care one single bit about trying to convince these voters, they are not worth the time. There are so many more people who got disgusted and voted third party or didn't vote at all (see all the voter suppression that just happened here in Georgia and Texas) and, in my mind, this is where we need to focus our effort much like Stacey Abrams did. 

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GSU&UT

GSU&UT 1798

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Lobo said:

You say "debt reform".  I assume you're talking about her desire to cancel all student debt?  Otherwise, I haven't read anything from her on the topic of debt.  

Not "cancelling" all debt, but yes addressing this ever increasing problem where higher education is unaffordable to many middle-class families.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

AOC has already accomplished more as a congressperson than 90% of the democrats in office. 

When are these democrats going to get their shit together and realize the game has changed?  They can't just sit on their asses anymore and oppose the republicans all day. 

I'm sorry, exactly what has she accomplished ?  She's been elected, and from what I hear her say so far, she really doesn't have a firm grasp on how the world works.  She has ideals and dreams right now, that's it.

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Chooky

Chooky 13292

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

An honest question: Why do you think Trump was elected? What made him attractive?

The orange complexion with little white eyes.  The tiny butthole mouth.  The dainty baby hands.  The ass that looks like two wooden barrels strapped together.  The statuesque Slovenian whore wife.  The elaborate hairdo that defies all geometry to hide another disastrous shortcoming.  The neck that waddles like a tall stack of fried eggs.  Transfers all of my personal failures in life to people with dark skin.  Displayed his business genius by totally owning Gene Simmons and Gary Busey and Dennis Rodman in a fake boardroom on a stupid television show made for dumbasses.  Totally owned another group of hapless morons with a fraudulent college and got busted for it.  Drives a golf cart on the greens like a gentleman.  Mocked a prisoner of war.  Sexual assault.  Constantly refused to pay his debts to people in an honest exchange of services.  Fucked a pornstar who has freakish basketball sized tits.  Multiple divorces.  Constantly lies for no reason.  Loves Jesus.  

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 104465

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

 

The parties NEED a kick in the pants and someone to get them out of their ruts.  The GOP has shown us an example of how that can be truly AWFUL for the party and country.  Let's see if the Dems handle their insurgency any better, and if it actually benefits the people.  I'm hopeful, but I'll also damned well wait and see.

37 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

AOC has already accomplished more as a congressperson than 90% of the democrats in office. 

When are these democrats going to get their shit together and realize the game has changed?  They can't just sit on their asses anymore and oppose the republicans all day. 

And there is some of this as well -- just shaking up the conversation and tone is more than 99% of Reps, who might as well be pieces of furniture who consume expensive hors d'oeuvres in DC, have done.

25 minutes ago, JimmyHoffa said:

1st point- Disagree unless you are basing that statement on getting twitter followers and TV interviews

2nd point- 100% agree but they also need to find a happy medium.  If it's all talk and no action well they are right back where they started. I have no problem with AOC being very vocal and "out there" in the public eye but at some point she needs to work with the others in her party (and vice versa) to get shit done or they could be surprised again in 2020. 

 

And finally, a splash of pragmatism needs to be mixed in.  If ALL you are is an insurgent and firebrand, you will be completely marginalized, and rightly so.

So, let's see.  The next 2-4 years are going to be interesting.*

 

*Again, presuming the Republic survives that long.  Which it likely won't.  Ledge, whisky, all that.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23356

Posted
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

An honest question: Why do you think Trump was elected? What made him attractive?

Trump was elected because he was something different.  It's really that simple. 

People grew tired of the same old bullshit and empty promises leading to nothing of value in their lives so they went with new bullshit.  I don't think they expected Trump to deliver for them.  They expected Trump to cripple the system that's been fucking them over. 

It's pretty much the ideological subversion playbook.  The population was demoralized and looking for a savior.  Trump filled that need.  

 

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

Not "cancelling" all debt, but yes addressing this ever increasing problem where higher education is unaffordable to many middle-class families.

https://ocasio2018.com/issues

She literally says "policy of student debt cancellation."  What else am I supposed to take away from that except that she proposes a cancellation of all student debt?  

We should probably quit dealing in facts.     

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Lobo said:

https://ocasio2018.com/issues

She literally says "policy of student debt cancellation."  What else am I supposed to take away from that except that she proposes a cancellation of all student debt?  

We should probably quit dealing in facts.     

 Forgiving debt isn't the right answer.  Reducing the interest rate is a fair discussion.  

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