Worldwide Israel/Palestine War Protests Thread

[Laxtonto 11875]

5 minutes ago, mdmost said:

Okay buddy. Look up the First Amendment before you advocate people being deported because they say terrible things. If you want to do a 1:1 where you also get deported with one of them, I'll be fine with that.

The issue is actively supporting an U.S.-designated terrorist organization is a valid path for removal from the US. What makes this interesting is that there is a fun legal argument between freedom of speech and knowingly provide “material support or resources” to a designated FTO.

 

Quote

• It is unlawful for a person in the United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States to knowingly provide “material support or resources” to a designated FTO. (The term “material support or resources” is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(1) as ” any property, tangible or intangible, or service, including currency or monetary instruments or financial securities, financial services, lodging, training, expert advice or assistance, safehouses, false documentation or identification, communications equipment, facilities, weapons, lethal substances, explosives, personnel (1 or more individuals who maybe or include oneself), and transportation, except medicine or religious materials.” 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(2) provides that for these purposes “the term ‘training’ means instruction or teaching designed to impart a specific skill, as opposed to general knowledge.” 18 U.S.C. § 2339A(b)(3) further provides that for these purposes the term ‘expert advice or assistance’ means advice or assistance derived from scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge.’’
• Representatives and members of a designated FTO, if they are aliens, are inadmissible to and, in certain circumstances, removable from the United States (see 8 U.S.C. §§ 1182 (a)(3)(B)(i)(IV)-(V), 1227 (a)(1)(A)).

 

[Rex Kramer 1234]

19 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

But I guess allowing people to move into your country who want to see its demise is reasonable. And we wonder why we are headed on the path that we are. Well I don't wonder.

This “No, love it or leave it or love it or be deported isn't pretty reasonable. But enjoy clutching your pearls.” is not what you said. 

Dont let that disingenuous fuck make shit up. 

[InkaUtexas 24932]

4 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

The issue is actively supporting an U.S.-designated terrorist organization is a valid path for removal from the US. What makes this interesting is that there is a fun legal argument between freedom of speech and knowingly provide “material support or resources” to a designated FTO.

 

 

Material support. Cool, prove they are providing funds or equipment like so many did to the IRA. I can say whatever the hell I want in support of the Peoples front of Judea.

 

[mdmost 42316]

13 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

The issue is actively supporting an U.S.-designated terrorist organization is a valid path for removal from the US. What makes this interesting is that there is a fun legal argument between freedom of speech and knowingly provide “material support or resources” to a designated FTO.

 

 

That's quite the leap but not unsurprising in this thread. 

[HellesBier 39]

11 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

This “No, love it or leave it or love it or be deported isn't pretty reasonable. But enjoy clutching your pearls.” is not what you said. 

Dont let that disingenuous fuck make shit up. 

I know it is not what I said. I also did not say deport citizens. Honestly, if there are people who are citizens and they are clearly supporting terrorist organizations, we should be reviewing our process to citizenship. Why are we allowing people to become citizens that clearly don't have our best interest. The crazy thing is, 20 years ago this would have been a very logical thought process. Now, it is racist or xenophobic, but we clearly don't have a breakdown in our system and our country is stronger than ever.

[InkaUtexas 24932]

4 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

I know it is not what I said. I also did not say deport citizens. Honestly, if there are people who are citizens and they are clearly supporting terrorist organizations, we should be reviewing our process to citizenship. Why are we allowing people to become citizens that clearly don't have our best interest. The crazy thing is, 20 years ago this would have been a very logical thought process. Now, it is racist or xenophobic, but we clearly don't have a breakdown in our system and our country is stronger than ever.

I do think there is an anti-US push, but I do not think it is a protestor. Now their organization? Sure, look at them.

So remove birthright citizenship? And 20 years ago there were a lot of US Citizens protesting the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many Americans, including policy from both parties, supported these. I don't think you can cherry pick what is anti-US that easily. I do understand your sentiment.

But let us say all protesting for Gaza are Anti-US. if they can overthrow the nation we are in a sorrier state than we realize.

[HellesBier 39]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

I do think there is an anti-US push, but I do not think it is a protestor. Now their organization? Sure, look at them. Agree.

So remove birthright citizenship? And 20 years ago there were a lot of US Citizens protesting the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many Americans, including policy from both parties, supported these. I don't think you can cherry pick what is anti-US that easily. I do understand your sentiment. Think this is a little bit different.

But let us say all protesting for Gaza are Anti-US. if they can overthrow the nation we are in a sorrier state than we realize. I think we can all realize the difference in someone who is saying, "man it is fucked up innocent people are dying stop sending Israel weapons" and someone who is wearing Hezbollah and Hamas badges/flags and screaming how America will be Muslim. 

 

[Laxtonto 11875]

 

18 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Material support. Cool, prove they are providing funds or equipment like so many did to the IRA. I can say whatever the hell I want in support of the Peoples front of Judea.

12 minutes ago, mdmost said:

That's quite the leap but not unsurprising in this thread. 

The problem is that 30 years ago what was considered "material support" and what will be considered now may be considered two different things. Unfortunately in the highly litigious world politics has become, I am unsure if the old standards apply. How the statute is written to include an individual as personnel, can it be twisted to show that people protesting have some form of financial support from aligned organizations outside of the US are not shown to have a known tie and are still actively then working for the goals of the organizations? It's a major stretch in my view, but how we have seen other statutes "reimagined" lately, I am unwilling to write it off as impossible or even very unlikely. 

That is my greatest concern with all of this, from a student standpoint. All it takes is this become enough of a hot issue to upset a subset in the DOJ and a large swath of kids' lives will in effect be ruined. While I may disagree with their viewpoint, I don't support people targeting a person's right to protest organically. The problem we run into is what is organic in nature, and what is driven by someone else. As someone who is heavily invested in the international student community, I do question the validity of the organic nature of some policies and approaches and more importantly, I am concerned that the students themselves do not understand that they are more at risk than they perceive.

[Foosters 17637]

I think the standard of "deport people who don't have America's best interest at heart" is a great standard that in no way could be abused. I suppose we're all on board with deporting all J6ers and anyone else who supported - in any fashion - the attempt to steal the presidency?

[InkaUtexas 24932]

20 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

 

How is it different?

They don't scare me. I do not see the US becoming an Islamic state just as much as Texas becoming full aggy.

[HellesBier 39]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

How is it different?

They don't scare me. I do not see the US becoming an Islamic state just as much as Texas becoming full aggy.

That is great that they don't scare you. I wouldn't say I am scared of them. But it is a problem and it is only going to get worse if we just sit back and pretend like there arent cracks.

 

[InkaUtexas 24932]

9 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

 

The problem is that 30 years ago what was considered "material support" and what will be considered now may be considered two different things. Unfortunately in the highly litigious world politics has become, I am unsure if the old standards apply. How the statute is written to include an individual as personnel, can it be twisted to show that people protesting have some form of financial support from aligned organizations outside of the US are not shown to have a known tie and are still actively then working for the goals of the organizations? It's a major stretch in my view, but how we have seen other statutes "reimagined" lately, I am unwilling to write it off as impossible or even very unlikely. 

That is my greatest concern with all of this, from a student standpoint. All it takes is this become enough of a hot issue to upset a subset in the DOJ and a large swath of kids' lives will in effect be ruined. While I may disagree with their viewpoint, I don't support people targeting a person's right to protest organically. The problem we run into is what is organic in nature, and what is driven by someone else. As someone who is heavily invested in the international student community, I do question the validity of the organic nature of some policies and approaches and more importantly, I am concerned that the students themselves do not understand that they are more at risk than they perceive.

What is funny is most of the itnernational student community comes from elements of society way above the poor masses. Perhaps China is dropping plants into our universities, but that is to steal our shit and not undermine society.

Students are stupid. MECHA meetings in the late 1990's on the 40 acres were fun, but damn some anti-american shit was at the forefront. I do not remember anyone losing their visa or the DOJ swooping in. And to be clear, I think Jennifer Casolo, Lori Berenson and the dumbasses who tried to overthrow Maduro should still be in jail where they were arrested. All of them went way above offering comfort to an enemy.

[InkaUtexas 24932]

2 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

That is great that they don't scare you. I wouldn't say I am scared of them. But it is a problem and it is only going to get worse if we just sit back and pretend like there arent cracks.

 

Ok, so what is the solution? Deport them? Including birthright citizens? Or maybe look at external funding sources?

[Frank Drebin 5361]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

So see my last post. And since when did the First only apply to citizens? Please remember those that wrote it spent most of their lives as Subjects of England.

If they are supporting Hamas, deport their asses back to whatever shithole they came from.

Supreme Court precedents hold that aliens are entitled to lesser First Amendment protections while seeking to enter the United States, because an alien has no right to enter the country, as per United States ex rel. Knauff v. Shaughnessy (1950).

In matters involving alien exclusion and naturalization, Congress has historically been permitted broad regulatory powers, so the government has been able to use the political viewpoints of aliens against them where content-based distinctions against citizens would be impermissible. Some examples:

Exclusion of a British anarchist was at issue in Turner v. Williams (1904); 
Harisiades v. Shaughnessy (1952) concerned deportation of communists; and
Kleindienst v. Mandel (1972) examined denial of a travel visa to a Marxist.+

Resident aliens lack security in political expression
So long as that same activity can be used to support the later deportation of an alien, however, resident aliens lack the same security in political expression extended to citizens.

According to the decision in Rasul v. Bush (2004), whether an alien is “in” the United States depends upon whether the location is territory over which the United States exercises plenary and exclusive jurisdiction. In Rasul, the Court held that U.S. courts had jurisdiction, or the power to hear a habeas corpus claim filed by detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

A passing statement in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez (1990), a Fourth Amendment search-and-seizure case, casts some doubt on whether “the people” to whom First Amendment rights belong includes aliens. The Court remarked, “[T]his textual exegesis . . . suggests that ‘the people’ protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments . . . refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

Anti-terrorism measures affect speech and association rights of noncitizens 
The USA Patriot Act of 2001 targeted certain speech and association activities by noncitizens in the immigration context. Under the act, aliens may be deported for fund-raising for, providing support to, or associating with groups deemed to be terrorist organizations by the U.S. government. It also excludes entry to aliens who endorse or espouse terrorism or support such groups.

In another anti-terrorism measure, the Department of Justice instructed immigration judges to close to the press and the public proceedings involving certain “special interest” cases and asked that they be removed from the court public docket.

The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals declared this policy unconstitutional, but the Third Circuit upheld it in Detroit Free Press v. Ashcroft (6th Cir. 2002) and North Jersey Media Group Inc. v. Ashcroft (3d Cir. 2002).

The Sixth Circuit, following the rule set forth in Richmond Newspapers Inc. v. Virginia (1980), concluded that the First Amendment protected the right of access to the proceedings because of the history of access to such proceedings. The Third Circuit found the record insufficient in this regard.

The First Amendment rights of aliens, even once lawfully established in the country, are not equivalent to those of citizens in matters of campaign finance. Federal law prevents aliens who are not “permanent resident aliens” (green card holders) from making campaign contributions or expenditures and from participating in political spending decisions.

[wildcat09 28485]

There's a whole lotta Cloak Room posts in here from people who hate it when the Daily Texan gets Cloak Roomed.

[elfenix 34075]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

There's a whole lotta Cloak Room posts in here from people who hate it when the Daily Texan gets Cloak Roomed.

[Bevo 13436]

7 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

There's a whole lotta Cloak Room posts in here from people who hate it when the Daily Texan gets Cloak Roomed.

I'm anti-cloak room. So I say deport all the cloak room people. Deport the illegals. Deport shitty drivers - both aggressive and slow and cell phone people and adults with student driver stickers. Deport extreme politicians. Deport half the people in every city over 1M in population. And deport the Dutch.

Edited August 20 by Bevo

[InkaUtexas 24932]

12 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

If they are supporting Hamas, deport their asses back to whatever shithole they came from.

Understand. so what if that shithole is the US as a birthright citizen? Deport them to Hoboken? Lubbock? Alaska?

[Laxtonto 11875]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

What is funny is most of the itnernational student community comes from elements of society way above the poor masses. Perhaps China is dropping plants into our universities, but that is to steal our shit and not undermine society.

Students are stupid. MECHA meetings in the late 1990's on the 40 acres were fun, but damn some anti-american shit was at the forefront. I do not remember anyone losing their visa or the DOJ swooping in. And to be clear, I think Jennifer Casolo, Lori Berenson and the dumbasses who tried to overthrow Maduro should still be in jail where they were arrested. All of them went way above offering comfort to an enemy.

I think this is the part that many on both sides just miss. These are just dumb kids, that are protesting as a group to find a community on campus that are being used by either side of the discussion.  We have moved away from the ability to have a reasonable discourse over the topic now and are instead moving to the mob mentality on either side. The problem is that there is no succinct pretty solution that addresses all the concerns from either side, and instead of coming to a reasonable solution we have what we have now. Generally, when a system refuses to find an equilibrium it is being impacted by outside actors that would be negatively impacted by the solution. There are actors on both sides of this that would be better served individually by no solution being found, and at some point that needs to be addressed before a real "end" will ever happen.

[Frank Drebin 5361]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

Understand. so what if that shithole is the US as a birthright citizen? Deport them to Hoboken? Lubbock? Alaska?

No.  Citizens have more robust 1st Amendment rights than guests.

Kind of like my house.  If my wife or kids are being assholes, I can't really kick them out.  But when the neighbor down the street is, I can.

[aggie08 20344]

9 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I'm anti-cloak room. So I say deport all the cloak room people. Deport the illegals. Deport shitty drivers - both aggressive and slow and cell phone people and adults with student driver stickers. Deport extreme politicians. Deport half the people in every city over 1M in population. And deport the Dutch.

[InkaUtexas 24932]

2 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

No.  Citizens have more robust 1st Amendment rights than guests.

Kind of like my house.  If my wife or kids are being assholes, I can't really kick them out.  But when the neighbor down the street is, I can.

OK, so a lot of the protestors are US Citizens. What do you do about them? You think all the Pro-Hamas are Palestinian? Um, the rainbow flags are probably not being carried by Omar or Ahmed.

[Frank Drebin 5361]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

OK, so a lot of the protestors are US Citizens. What do you do about them? You think all the Pro-Hamas are Palestinian? Um, the rainbow flags are probably not being carried by Omar or Ahmed.

Nothing.  They have different rights.

[InkaUtexas 24932]

2 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Nothing.  They have different rights.

But the discussion here is to deport those protesting in favor of Hamas. So do you deport the US Citizen who protests? Forget the resident alien or Student visa part for now. US Birthright Citizen.

[Rex Kramer 1234]

11 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Understand. so what if that shithole is the US as a birthright citizen? Deport them to Hoboken? Lubbock? Alaska?

If they are supporting Hamas?  Depends on level of support. If in terroristic actions, they should be in an American prison. If in words, meh. They’re probably an idiot, and should be monitored closely by appropriate intelligence agencies. Chances are they’ll turn out to merely be a respected Surly Cloak Room poster. 

[Frank Drebin 5361]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

But the discussion here is to deport those protesting in favor of Hamas. So do you deport the US Citizen who protests? Forget the resident alien or Student visa part for now. US Birthright Citizen.

I mean I don't know how to be more clear.  My position is guests who support Hamas should be deported.

US Citizens have different rights. They are allowed to support whatever organization they want -- Hamas, KKK, etc. -- and not face sanctions from the government.  As much as I would like to deport Hamas or KKK members merely virtue of their associations, it would not be legal.  If they break other laws while supporting Hamas, arrest and punish them.  But association or lawfully exercising 1st amendment rights alone?  No. 

[Rex Kramer 1234]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

But the discussion here is to deport those protesting in favor of Hamas.

Nobody said that except that pederast mdmost. He completely fabricated what the new poster said. 

[InkaUtexas 24932]

3 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Nobody said that except that pederast mdmost. He completely fabricated what the new poster said. 

No, he said it. Alluding to immigrants I understand. My question is what if they are US Citizens, birthright at that. They are also protesting against US Policy concerning Gaza and Israel.

[Frank Drebin 5361]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

No, he said it. Alluding to immigrants I understand. My question is what if they are US Citizens, birthright at that. They are also protesting against US Policy concerning Gaza and Israel.

Your question has been answered repeatedly.  Yet you keep "just asking".

[Mikey4 2476]

Trying not to CR...we have criminal laws that prohibit some forms of "support" for terrorism and terrorist organizations. If someone violates one of those laws, then he should be prosecuted. But if a U.S. citizen is simply advocating unpopular political opinions, then he should be mercilessly ridiculed in the public square, so to speak, but should not be prosecuted and certainly should not be deported.

TLDR: Fight dumb speech with smart speech.

Edited August 20 by Mikey4

[InkaUtexas 24932]

2 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Your question has been answered repeatedly.  Yet you keep "just asking".

No one has said if US Citizens should be or not be deported.

[Foosters 17637]

1 minute ago, Frank Drebin said:

Your question has been answered repeatedly.  Yet you keep "just asking".

Maybe he wants to hear it from the guy who proposed it, and not the DT white-knight brigade.

[Frank Drebin 5361]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

No one has said if US Citizens should be or not be deported.

I think I have said it about 3 times in this thread.

[InkaUtexas 24932]

2 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

I think I have said it about 3 times in this thread.

Go for 4. Yes or No.

[Frank Drebin 5361]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

Go for 4. Yes or No.

Jesus, you must be tolling me.  Here it is again for the 4th time -- NO.

[Frank Drebin 5361]

32 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

No.  Citizens have more robust 1st Amendment rights than guests.

Kind of like my house.  If my wife or kids are being assholes, I can't really kick them out.  But when the neighbor down the street is, I can.

 

29 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Nothing.  They have different rights.

 

18 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

I mean I don't know how to be more clear.  My position is guests who support Hamas should be deported.

US Citizens have different rights. They are allowed to support whatever organization they want -- Hamas, KKK, etc. -- and not face sanctions from the government.  As much as I would like to deport Hamas or KKK members merely virtue of their associations, it would not be legal.  If they break other laws while supporting Hamas, arrest and punish them.  But association or lawfully exercising 1st amendment rights alone?  No. 

 

[InkaUtexas 24932]

Thank you, and appreciate the answer. But I was hoping the person who posted his take would chime in being a first generation citizen.

[Pato del Muerto 52035]

1 hour ago, HellesBier said:

someone who is wearing crosses and trump flags and screaming how America will be christian. 

Same same?  They got to go?

[Brisketexan 103515]

I think this is the part that many on both sides just miss. These are just dumb kids, that are protesting as a group to find a community on campus that are being used by either side of the discussion.  We have moved away from the ability to have a reasonable discourse over the topic now and are instead moving to the mob mentality on either side. The problem is that there is no succinct pretty solution that addresses all the concerns from either side, and instead of coming to a reasonable solution we have what we have now. Generally, when a system refuses to find an equilibrium it is being impacted by outside actors that would be negatively impacted by the solution. There are actors on both sides of this that would be better served individually by no solution being found, and at some point that needs to be addressed before a real "end" will ever happen.

A whole bunch of this. When I was in school, we had (on the left) MeCha-Aztlan idiots, the Shanty, and one year, a nutbar hard left student body president, among all the other typical pet causes.
They were countered by reactionary redneck frat boy types, painting racist shit on cars and whatnot, calling the protest types commies and fags, etc. This was not super high-level thinking or discourse. We are making a mistake in treating similar stuff today like it is.
Back in my day, strong, publicly held “opinions” were useful for one thing: as a “cheat code” to ingratiate yourself with some passionate chick with a cause. “Yeah…I too am concerned about the racist and sexist hiring practices of Coors…I’m only drinking this silver bullet because I stole it from my roommate. What’s say we go back to your place, I bet you have some more socially conscious beer to choose from? And you can tell me more about the people’s struggle. I really want to know more.”
Geez. We need to stop taking idiots seriously. Across the board. That would solve a shitload of our domestic woes.
Also, more people need to get fucking laid and chill.

[Da Fino 2665]

56 minutes ago, Bevo said:

adults with student driver stickers

Has there been a thread about this yet? Why are those so popular this year? 

[Rex Kramer 1234]

32 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

No, he said it. Alluding to immigrants I understand. My question is what if they are US Citizens, birthright at that. They are also protesting against US Policy concerning Gaza and Israel.

He didn’t. You and mdmost did what posters did here all the time: you assumed. He said they ought to leave. A very common thing to say and a sentiment felt by 90% of the population.

Also, I answered your citizen question, Frank answered multiple times and I’m pretty sure even the poster in question answered. Why are you imagining something that isn’t there?

Edited August 20 by Rex Kramer

[InkaUtexas 24932]

1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

He didn’t. You and mdmost did what posters did here all the time: you assumed. He said they ought to leave. A very common thing to say and a sentiment felt by 90% of the population.

How do you read this?

Where should they go? I dont give a fuck, just send them on a one way flight to Antarctica.

[Rex Kramer 1234]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

How do you read this?

Where should they go? I dont give a fuck, just send them on a one way flight to Antarctica.

I read it correctly. As an exasperated tongue in cheek comment. 

[Foosters 17637]

hahahaha

[InkaUtexas 24932]

Just now, Rex Kramer said:

I read it correctly. As an exasperated tongue in cheek comment. 

Oh so you know what he means and assumed nothing? I do not read it as a nice cruise on carnival to check out the penguins. I see it more of a Gulag approach. So guess we both can make assumptions.

[BurntEyes 5629]

I for one fully support of US and non-US citizens  receiving a 2 month required relocation, I mean state sponsored vacation for all KKK, Proud boys, Neonazi groups to free public housing in South Chicago during which they are required to display their teams colors and uniforms anytime they're out of the house.

Similarly, I fully support an funded and required exchange program for all US citizens in support of Hamas to be assimilated into Hamas culture for 2 months. 

It's great to help cross the divide between these groups and really make America great again.

Also, I'm in full support of any moderately attractive college females that feels compelled to educate me about her struggles and causes at their home. Happy to send my CV if required but I will demand pics prior to attending the reeducation session.

Edited August 20 by BurntEyes

[BurntEyes 5629]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

How do you read this?

Where should they go? I dont give a fuck, just send them on a one way flight to Antarctica.

Please don't advocate for sending anyone to Antarctica. It's already over trafficked by tourism and scientists! Leave it alone!!

[InkaUtexas 24932]

Just now, BurntEyes said:

Please don't advocate for sending anyone to Antarctica. It's already over trafficked by tourism and scientists! Leave it alone!!

You went there as a tourist right? Do you self identify as a penguin now?

[BurntEyes 5629]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

You went there as a tourist right? Do you self identify as a penguin now?

The ignorance and hatred around people who identify as Furries is a national shame and I won't allow your myopic view keep me from identifying as I feel compelled.

[InkaUtexas 24932]

1 minute ago, BurntEyes said:

The ignorance and hatred around people who identify as Furries is a national shame and I won't allow your myopic view keep me from identifying as I feel compelled.

This you?