Argument Over Parking Spot Turns Deadly in Florida

[hpslugga 4062]

17 hours ago, pokeNbeans said:

Shooter had a right to pull his gun and point it at the guy to back him off. Choosing to pull the trigger when the dude was moving backward makes it murder or manslaughter. Really surprised he's not facing charges.

Why are you surprised? It's fucking outlaw Florida.

[hpslugga 4062]

6 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

Youre right, smaller weaker people just need to deal with the fact that larger and stronger individuals can assault them for yelling and there is nothing they can do to defend themselves ..

I don't know which is more deluded: the idea that this moron was "defending" himself, or the idea that you're gonna stand and trade with people on this topic.

Edited July 24, 2018 by hpslugga

[Smax 3800]

5 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

I don't know which is more deluded: the idea that this moron was defending himself, or the idea that you're gonna stand and trade with people on this topic.

So a guy who is 4-6 inches taller then you and probably has 25-40 pounds on you comes running out of a store and throws you on the ground, then stands over you bowed up and you wont feel threatened, ya right .... you'd piss yourself 

Stupid fucks need to learn that physically assaulting someone for TALKING might just have consequences.

[hpslugga 4062]

As the shooter calmly drew his weapon, he had assumed a fixed position to more or less steady his aim. Meanwhile the decedent took fully 2 steps backwards in an obvious sign of retreat starting from the moment he saw the guy was drawing something until a full second before the weapon fired. His hands were clearly visible and was not in any position to further demolish that little toad. At the very best, you could argue that he had the right to shoot-to-wound, and even that's ridiculous on its face. But shooting for the purpose of killing him? That's not self-defense, that's just murder. A 14-year old cannot understand that, but an adult can. You're making this too easy.

That guy was not thinking "oh my god, this guy is gonna kill me, I need to defend myself." By the calmness of his actions starting with shifting around into that fixed position, he was thinking "that motherfucker shoved me? I'll show him!"

Edited July 24, 2018 by hpslugga

[Zepol87 9193]

22 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

Youre right, smaller weaker people just need to deal with the fact that larger and stronger individuals can assault them for yelling and there is nothing they can do to defend themselves ..

You aren't serious right? 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4977]

13 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

As the shooter calmly drew his weapon, he had assumed a fixed position to more or less steady his aim. Meanwhile the decedent took fully 2 steps backwards in an obvious sign of retreat starting from the moment he saw the guy was drawing something until a full second before the weapon fired. His hands were clearly visible and was not in any position to further demolish that little toad. At the very best, you could argue that he had the right to shoot-to-wound, and even that's ridiculous on its face. But shooting for the purpose of killing him? That's not self-defense, that's just murder. A 14-year old cannot understand that, but an adult can. You're making this too easy.

That guy was not thinking "oh my god, this guy is gonna kill me, I need to defend myself." By the calmness of his actions starting with shifting around into that fixed position, he was thinking "that motherfucker shoved me? I'll show him!"

This. Except the shoot to wound thing doesn't exist.

[hpslugga 4062]

Just now, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

This. Except the shoot to wound thing doesn't exist.

Hence my labelling of such as "ridiculous on its face."

[Smax 3800]

16 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

As the shooter calmly drew his weapon, he had assumed a fixed position to more or less steady his aim. Meanwhile the decedent took fully 2 steps backwards in an obvious sign of retreat starting from the moment he saw the guy was drawing something until a full second before the weapon fired. His hands were clearly visible and was not in any position to further demolish that little toad. At the very best, you could argue that he had the right to shoot-to-wound, and even that's ridiculous on its face. But shooting for the purpose of killing him? That's not self-defense, that's just murder. A 14-year old cannot understand that, but an adult can. You're making this too easy.

That guy was not thinking "oh my god, this guy is gonna kill me, I need to defend myself." By the calmness of his actions starting with shifting around into that fixed position, he was thinking "that motherfucker shoved me? I'll show him!"

 

2 steps back and squared up bowed his shoulders and arms out and looks like his hands were clenched in fists, only time he showed to be retreating was when the gun was brandished 

So you've just been thrown to the ground (assaulted) a much larger individual is still standing over you in what appears to be an aggressive stance and you expect this guy just to lay there and hope the assaulter isn't going to beat his ass even more? Mind you all of this transpires in a matter of seconds and now we have all you monday morning quarterback dissecting this

No way, people need to learn you can not go around assaulting people

[hpslugga 4062]

Just now, Smax said:

2 steps back and squared up bowed his shoulders and arms out and looks like his hands were clenched in fists

You're just lying now. 

Just now, Smax said:

So you've just been thrown to the ground (assaulted) a much larger individual is still standing over you in what appears to be an aggressive stance and you expect this guy just to lay there and hope the assaulter isn't going to beat his ass even more? Mind you all of this transpires in a matter of seconds and now we have all you monday morning quarterback dissecting this

As others have already said, I take no issue with the fact that he drew the gun. What I take issue with was the fact that he fucking shot him for the purpose of killing him after he had already signaled that he wanted no more part of it upon realizing he was armed. The fact that concept is too lofty and complex for you to understand is a problem that you have to resolve. And please spare me with that teenaged interpretation of "matter of seconds" because the shooter was doing this in a shockingly calm fashion. This was not a reflexive draw-and-shoot. What happened there was reflective, and that's why it's murder. And it's not "monday morning quarterbacking" to say so. It's as transparent as the fact that thus far, you've been absolutely wrong about absolutely everything that you've said.

[Lat22 4018]

Lifetime proud "gun nut" and LTC holder here.  That was a bad shoot and the guy should go to jail.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4977]

Dude should have certainly been charged with assault, not shot. There was clearly enough time from when the old man went for his gun to when he pulled the trigger for the other dude to cease being a threat. He retreated and changed posture completely. At that point the threat had ended and the old man was no longer justified in using deadly force. And there was plenty of time for him to recognize that. It's not like the dude flinched at the last moment. He had time to take like two steps back and put his hands out.

[riloh05 107]

19 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

2 steps back and squared up bowed his shoulders and arms out and looks like his hands were clenched in fists, only time he showed to be retreating was when the gun was brandished 

So you've just been thrown to the ground (assaulted) a much larger individual is still standing over you in what appears to be an aggressive stance and you expect this guy just to lay there and hope the assaulter isn't going to beat his ass even more? Mind you all of this transpires in a matter of seconds and now we have all you monday morning quarterback dissecting this

No way, people need to learn you can not go around assaulting people

you are better than this. quit making excuses for this murdering asshole.

[DaysOff 7976]

Remember 3rd grade when people got pushed to the ground at recess.

[Felix 607]

How would shooting the guy have stopped the woman from shooting him?  It's a stupid argument.  Once he pulled his weapon the guy who pushed him backed off and there was no longer a threat of force.  He chose to start some shit, got assaulted and stopped the threat.  Then he murdered the guy.

[hpslugga 4062]

16 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

What if his old lady has a dirty .380* and you get hit from the car.

If that possibility was on his mind (and we know it wasn't because he didn't have enough time to say "TELL THAT FUCKIN' BITCH TO CHILL!"), the worst thing he could have done for himself was what he actually ended up doing. If she had drawn on him, the only way she shoots is if he shoots first. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by hpslugga

[Huckleberry 33110]

53 minutes ago, Smax said:

need to learn you can not go around assaulting people

It's quite possible the shooter committed assault first. But then you'd have to understand the law to know that.

An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.

[llanoflash 151]

i cant imagine giving enough fucks to go reprimand somebody about a damn parking spot in the first place. he parked in the front row too.

the area looks a little shady to start with.. go get your six pack and go home.

there is probably a place on the internet where you can post pics of douchebag parking when you get back.

 

[BigHorn'13 3387]

Lol at you having to use the gun if you pull it out. Not every instance is going to be some version of a Mexican standoff. 

[SmokeyTheBear 5568]

SIAP but if the black man had a gun and shot the instigator when the he addressed his gf, would that have been stand your ground? 

Edited July 24, 2018 by SmokeyTheBear

[TornACL 7722]

2 hours ago, Smax said:

So a guy who is 4-6 inches taller then you and probably has 25-40 pounds on you comes running out of a store and throws you on the ground, then stands over you bowed up and you wont feel threatened, ya right .... you'd piss yourself 

Stupid fucks need to learn that physically assaulting someone for TALKING might just have consequences.

You're a coward.

[Clintonaldo 2576]

This was a nice thread until idiots started stereotyping and it’s probably over now. 

[gyroprotagonist 2595]

yeah, the murderer should have pulled out his phone and taken a pic to post on the d-bag parking thread.  He gets to feel superior, little boy still has a father.  everyone wins.    I hope he goes trial for something and loses.

[Smax 3800]

3 hours ago, hpslugga said:

You're just lying now. 

 

 

No I am not, rewatch the video

 

 

 

The guy pushes him, takes 3 steps towards him as hes on the ground, hikes up his shorts, bows up his shoulders and only starts to turn away when the guy on the ground reaches into his pocket 

2 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

It's quite possible the shooter committed assault first. But then you'd have to understand the law to know that.

 

 

Youd have to know what he said, could he have verbally assaulted her? Sure but he did not appear to acting in a violent manner towards her, she was in her car, he appears calm, it does look like he gave her the bird. Without sound we can only go by what we see and she did not appear to be in any danger did she?

 

Once again its a shitty situation all around

[hpslugga 4062]

10 minutes ago, Smax said:

No I am not, rewatch the video

You are, and I did. You said his hands were clenched after he stepped back.

That’s an assertion as fact something that was evidently not true...in laymen’s terms, we tend to refer to those as lies. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by hpslugga

[Smax 3800]

7 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

You are, and I did. You said his hands were clenched after he stepped back.

 

That’s an assertion as fact something that was evidently not true...in laymen’s terms, we tend to refer to those as lies. 

 

 

i was wrong his hands weren't clenched, he still proceeded to approach the man as he was on the ground and bowed his shoulders/arms out after he pulled his shorts up, an aggressive move. Multiple people on this thread stated the attacker retreated after he pushed the guy to ground, guess they are liars too

[irishtexan 11522]

3 hours ago, riloh05 said:

you are better than this. quit making excuses for this murdering asshole.

he's really not. this is who he is. 

 

29 minutes ago, Smax said:

The guy pushes him, takes 3 steps towards him as hes on the ground, hikes up his shorts, bows up his shoulders and only starts to turn away when the guy on the ground reaches into his pocket 

 

What video are you watching? Literally none of that happened.

And even if it did, here's the important thing that you yourself acknowledge - "only starts to turn away when the guy on the ground reaches into his pocket". So he starts to turn away. He wasn't still coming at the old man. 

[Chuychanga 133]

I'm a gun owner but there's not a bigger bunch of pussies than the guys who feel like they need to be constantly carrying just to get through everyday life. 

[yoladu 4105]

I think one could argue that it is possible the shooter was about to get his ass beat by the man after being shoved to the ground.

Once the gun was drawn, the guy who shoved him retreated immediately, even turning a bit in a defensive manner.

AND THAT WAS WHERE IT COULD/SHOULD HAVE ENDED. Any grave threat to bodily harm was over. Job done. No need to to discharge the weapon.

BUT the shooter shot anyway. That makes him a murderer in my eyes, and likely the majority of people who view this video.

Edited July 24, 2018 by yoladu

[Orca of Peace 109]

54 minutes ago, yoladu said:

I think one could argue that it is possible the shooter was about to get his ass beat by the man after being shoved to the ground.

Once the gun was drawn, the guy who shoved him retreated immediately, even turning a bit in a defensive manner.

AND THAT WAS WHERE IT COULD/SHOULD HAVE ENDED. Any grave threat to bodily harm was over. Job done. No need to to discharge the weapon.

BUT the shooter shot anyway. That makes him a murderer in my eyes, and likely the majority of people who view this video.

nailed it. 

i think it was ok for the shooter to show the gun as the dude was still hostile and towering over him.  He retreates and turns and THEN the shots are fired.

Shooter had his feelings/ big ego hurt and that's why he went into God mode. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 hour ago, Chuychanga said:

I'm a gun owner but there's not a bigger bunch of pussies than the guys who feel like they need to be constantly carrying just to get through everyday life. 

They have delusions of grandeur. They are going to save the day and be heroes. Chicks will dig them.  

[Aqua Buddha 14624]

2 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

They have delusions of grandeur. They are going to save the day and be heroes. Chicks will dig them.  

 

4 hours ago, Chuychanga said:

I'm a gun owner but there's not a bigger bunch of pussies than the guys who feel like they need to be constantly carrying just to get through everyday life. 

They see themselves as "good guys with guns."

[bschoolprof 6273]

I’m not gonna watch video of the event myself, but instead read surly to figure out what happened.

Peak surly.

[Errestaurants 2570]

16 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Well, I'll chime in here as probably one of the most ardent gun rights, self defense, concealed carry advocates, who has spent a lot of time training in armed (improvised weapons, blade weapons, blunt and firearms), unarmed defense and martial arts.

First rule is threat recognition. Be aware of not only clear threats, but potential threats.

Next, the 99% advantage dictates threat avoidance. Leave the area, leave the situation, make a plan and execute the avoidance plan. If you avoid the he conflict before it starts you never have to move to step 3.

Descalation of threat. Scale down the confrentation while still attempting to move away from the threat. Create distance. If name calling is involved own the name. Yep, I'm a raging pussy, you're right. Then if required note you're willing to call the police and do so if necessary.

If it becomes physical after attempting avoidance and descalation, respond in kind to the level of threat. Someone puts their hands on me, it's assault. I'm not saying fight fair, but if all you own is a hammer all of your problems look like nails. However, use you're previous movement and descalation time to create a plan. Have a the plan clear in your mind.

Once assault has occurred execute the plan to stop the threat. Once the threat has been stopped, return to avoiding further conflict, remove yourself asap.

I haven't watch the video but based purely on the responses in this thread it seems steps 1-4 were skipped and the shooter was walking around with a hammer looking for a nail.

If that is in fact the case, he gives a very bad name to folks like me and many others like me that practice real self defense. Which, ultimately, has the goal of staying alive. Never getting into a fight in the first place is a damn good way of obtaining that goal.

I'm not going to address the legal aspects as I don't feel it belongs in this thread. That's politics and belongs elsewhere IMO.

 

[tx 3 putt 77519]

1. stand your ground is a horrible law

2. that's murder 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4977]

What exactly about stand your ground, assuming it is properly applied, is horrible. Be specific. And keep in mind that the vast majority of folks here think that it doesn't apply in this situation.

[TwiceHorn 31543]

I did not realize that Texas has a "stand your ground" law and has since 2007.  I guess it doesn't surprise me much.

The marked up bill:

https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/80R/billtext/html/SB00378F.HTM

It appears that Texas' version does not apply if the shooter provoked the victim.

Edited July 25, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31543]

4 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

What exactly about stand your ground, assuming it is properly applied, is horrible. Be specific. And keep in mind that the vast majority of folks here think that it doesn't apply in this situation.

3 putt is pretty notorious for knee-jerk reactions in threads involving criminals and criminal law.

If the big difference between normal self-defense and "stand your ground" is duty to retreat, as it appears that it is, it isn't "horrible," per se, but it does seem to slightly promote more violence.

 

It would seem that the reasonableness of the fear of imminent harm or death would always be a jury question, and by no means a slam dunk for the defendant.

Edited July 25, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[RPM 26359]

29 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

1. stand your ground is a horrible law

2. that's murder 

3. He wasn't standing

[TornACL 7722]

That piece of shit pussy never would have talked shit in the first place, to a woman no less, if he wasn't packing. 

You want to carry for protection, that's fine. You think of your gun as an ace in the hole that allows you to be a total dickhead to strangers, you're a cowardly pussy. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4977]

8 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

3 putt is pretty notorious for knee-jerk reactions in threads involving criminals and criminal law.

If the big difference between normal self-defense and "stand your ground" is duty to retreat, as it appears that it is, it isn't "horrible," per se, but it does seem to slightly promote more violence.

 

It would seem that the reasonableness of the fear of imminent harm or death would always be a jury question, and by no means a slam dunk for the defendant.

The duty to retreat isnt the only difference. With stand your ground you cannot be the aggressor. An important part that lots of folks leave out.

[TwiceHorn 31543]

15 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

The duty to retreat isnt the only difference. With stand your ground you cannot be the aggressor. An important part that lots of folks leave out.

Certainly true of Texas' law.  Not true of Florida's http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Florida's law even includes a presumption of reasonableness in certain circumstances that strikes me as unwarranted. 

[Smax 3800]

9 hours ago, irishtexan said:

he's really not. this is who he is. 

 

What video are you watching? Literally none of that happened.

And even if it did, here's the important thing that you yourself acknowledge - "only starts to turn away when the guy on the ground reaches into his pocket". So he starts to turn away. He wasn't still coming at the old man. 

now youre the liar go watch the vid

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

10 hours ago, RPM said:

3. He wasn't standing

Yeah, but "Hug Your Ground" laws aren't going to be very popular.

[Errestaurants 2570]

10 hours ago, TornACL said:

That piece of shit pussy never would have talked shit in the first place, to a woman no less, if he wasn't packing. 

You want to carry for protection, that's fine. You think of your gun as an ace in the hole that allows you to be a total dickhead to strangers, you're a cowardly pussy. 

yes sir. I'm pro gun but there are a lot of keyboard badasses out there carrying. used to be just the bad guys carried a pistol but now you got the bad guys, LTC internet pussies who will only "man up" if they got a gun and responsible gun owners who carry but respect what that pistol means. 

[hpslugga 4062]

17 hours ago, Smax said:

i was wrong

You've been wrong about absolutely everything you've said thus far. 

17 hours ago, Smax said:

his hands weren't clenched, he still proceeded to approach the man as he was on the ground and bowed his shoulders/arms out after he pulled his shorts up, an aggressive move.

I was not referring to that, and you knew that. In the very beginning, I explained to you very clearly:

"Meanwhile the decedent took fully 2 steps backwards in an obvious sign of retreat starting from the moment he saw the guy was drawing something until a full second before the weapon fired."

What you're talking about is before the murderer went for his weapon, and now you're deliberately trying to confuse things by pretending that I was talking about the same timespan. I wasn't, and you knew that. Your reading comprehension cannot possibly be that piss poor, so you have to be lying.

17 hours ago, Smax said:

Multiple people on this thread stated the attacker retreated after he pushed the guy to ground, guess they are liars too

They've said that he retreated the moment he saw the murderer going for a weapon, and they would be correct in saying so. 

8 hours ago, Smax said:

now youre the liar go watch the vid

It's like you're intentionally ignoring the last part of what he said. What good that will do you exists strictly within the confines of your own head.

[MissingInAction 25204]

Always been my opinion that only giant pussies carry guns among civilians. Cops being among the worst offenders.

 

[BrickHorn 18289]

17 hours ago, BurntEyes said:

However, use you're previous movement and descalation time to create a plan. Have a the plan clear in your mind.

Thanks for the advice, Mario.

[Buzzrock 14947]

Send them all the Florida, wall it off, and they'll just end up killing each other over parking spots and shoulder checks.
Win/win.

I like Miami and the Keys. And a few parts of the gulf coast. But I think I’d be willing to give them up.

[Nonbryan 173]

This case needs to at least go to a Grand Jury

[RPM 26359]

2 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

 

I like Miami and the Keys. And a few parts of the gulf coast. But I think I’d be willing to give them up.