School me on Water tanks and water storage?

[horn4life 3759]

The wife and I have been considering putting in a water storage system with new gutters.  in the last year I tore about a row of about 8 red tip photinia "trees" along our back fence, and converted it to a new flower bed and are seriously considering tearing up the front yard and xeriscaping it.  We thought adding a water storage tank into the mix might be good and since we would be moving a lot of dirt around this would be the time to consider it.  

I wanted to have a pump to be able to pressurize to water by hand, or run a sprinkler.  I guess with the xeriscaping of the front yard I might try to add some sort of locational drip system?  Not sure about how any of that would work on a storage tank system or if it would work.  But I have to think gathering a couple hundred gallons of water would over time pay for itself in the summer and if I am ever going to do it. I should do it with the re-landscape plan. 

Anyhow anyone use water storage? Have any do's and do nots?

[Chico_SA 521]

Subscribed. Thinking of doing the same.  Freeze and snow years ago killed some large shrubs on the side of the house so I tore them out.  Turns out they were helping with the water flow off the roof on that side. Since then, lots of runoff and erosion.  Need to get some gutters on the side and thinking of running them into a tank which will be located right by our garden area. 

[Incredulity 11650]

My experience.  Personally and helping some friends and relatives over the last 15 years or so.

 

doing it on the cheap means you won't collect enough to make too much difference.

 

doing it at a scale/sophistication that will make much difference will be $$$$.

 

Now those statements can obviously be parsed/argued to death.

[Post Oak 20208]

I've looked into doing this as well.  I watched a bunch of DIY YT videos and one guy out in east Texas had a set up where he had 3 5000 gallon poly cisterns up to catch rainwater. 

During the drought last summer or the one prior the ground dried out, shifted and cracked.  Causing his underground PVC pipes to crack and leak the 15000 gallons of water he had collected

He switched from PVC to PEX or something similar so that it would be flexible. 

My father had issues with his sprinkler system pipes leaking last summer, I assume it's because of the ground drying out since the system isn't that old but I could be wrong.  

Something to think about. 

I'm all for doing it and I think there is value in every drop you are able to collect and save but it seems like to me if you're going the above ground catchment route you would want one or two big enough to make it worth your while. 

What I mean is that are you going to have a tank that fills up after a half inch rainfall or will you be able to hold water if you get a good few days of rain.

 

Good luck. I'll be following.

 

Also I think @troph did this on their new house but I could be wrong 

[troph 24781]

We did, nothing underground, basically drains in the trough of a butterfly roof then pvc through the house into a basement waterproofed concrete tank. Stored about 65,000 gallons. We have a shed roof too with a gutter than drops down the side of the house halfway then drains into the cistern through the subfloor. It’s enough for a family of four to live without much sacrifice or change in lifestyle.

Inside the tank is an aerator, pump, depth sensor, and a hatch that’s it. Pressure tank and filtration in the garage. Filtration is two carbon filters for particulate and UV light for microscopic organisms. Done and done.

I think the big cylinder poly tanks are an easier / better solution. Ours is a bit over kill.

if for landscaping only it’s super easy.

pex is a smart solution, there is super flexible pex and then the semi flexible. Great products.

here are a few pics of ours finished without water.

garage is above a lot of that ceiling, kitchen and mudroom too.

 

 

 

here’s the filtration, the box on the wall to the left is actually the first filter I didn’t mention above it comes through that from the roof and that filter catches big items. We don’t have much in the way of leaves etc so it’s a bit unnecessary. The box on the right is the water heater. The pressure tank is blue tank bottom left. The carbon filters and UV are the canisters in the middle the rest is the circulator pump. Apologies for the mess, I was really irritated about that I wanted a clean mechanical room and I got shit thrown up on the wall. Oh well, the system is pretty bad ass other than that eye sore.

 

Edited June 1 by troph

[royiv 9250]

8 minutes ago, troph said:

We did, nothing underground, basically drains in the trough of a butterfly roof then pvc through the house into a basement waterproofed concrete tank. Stored about 65,000 gallons. We have a shed roof too with a gutter than drops down the side of the house halfway then drains into the cistern through the subfloor. It’s enough for a family of four to live without much sacrifice or change in lifestyle.

Inside the tank is an aerator, pump, depth sensor, and a hatch that’s it. Pressure tank and filtration in the garage. Filtration is two carbon filters for particulate and UV light for microscopic organisms. Done and done.

I think the big cylinder poly tanks are an easier / better solution. Ours is a bit over kill.

if for landscaping only it’s super easy.

pex is a smart solution, there is super flexible pex and then the semi flexible. Great products.

here are a few pics of ours finished without water.

garage is above a lot of that ceiling, kitchen and mudroom too.

 

Out of curiosity, how cold is the cold water coming out of the tap with that system? I would think with that much insulation you would actually get something fairly decent instead of the tepid bath water that comes out of the cold water tap in the middle of summer on a municipal system.

[troph 24781]

3 minutes ago, royiv said:

Out of curiosity, how cold is the cold water coming out of the tap with that system? I would think with that much insulation you would actually get something fairly decent instead of the tepid bath water that comes out of the cold water tap in the middle of summer on a municipal system.

65 degrees year round, it’s a subtle luxury.  Also no spots on any dishes, no scale in the dishwasher or sink, faucets stay clear, taste is nice. I want to test for forever chems but haven’t yet. Down spouts in the basement tank are intended to minimize splashing so as sediment accumulates it will be left alone on the floor. Probably have to maintain/clean once every 20 years? 

Edited May 31 by troph

[troph 24781]

Our system is stupid (she’s a builder so it’s partially a marketing expense). If you don’t need filtration it’s just for landscaping this is a few grand max. Sizable tanks at Home Depot are like $800. Pex is cheap enough. Add a pump for a few hundred and some sweat labor and your done. If you want to bury it then you’ve obviously got a bigger project but it’s just digging a hole. I hear some guys around here have experience with that. But the basics are super easy and then you add from there.

but I’ll say this we love our rainwater. 

my wife would be happy to chat about what and how to do it she loves this shit just send me a dm.

Edited May 31 by troph

[ROFL BOX 6647]

1.  We do gutters from San Antonio to Wacko, Smithville to Llano / Horseshoe Bay.

2.  Sample schematic attached below for info on how to calculate your gutter needs.

 

3.  We don't typically like to do more than 45 feet without a downspout.

 

4.  You can mix downspout colors that are different from the gutter. 

 

5.  Most people go with a 6" setup (gutters) & 3 × 4 (downspout).

 

6.  ½ Round are attractive, however they suuuuck for functionality & are consistently overflowed or bypassed by the roof (especially of a metal roof).

 

7.  If you purchase from a place like "Tank Depot" (Ranch Road 12 just N of Fitzhugh here in Drip), sign the "rainwater collection" form & there's no sales tax. 

 

8.  For simple things like lawn irrigation (especially Xeriscaping), you don't need a lot other than a soaker hose setup.  Any elevated for will get you approx. 3.2 psi per foot, so if you're doing 50 gallon barrels, get those as high off the ground as you can build for & support.

[troph 24781]

The issue that can make it more complicated is figuring out how to consolidate from multiple down spouts to one tank, but here’s the basic system turn key:

 https://www.rainharvest.com/500-gallon-preconfigured-above-ground-rainwater-collection-system-green.asp

** I do not advocate for this brand I know nothing about them the pic and representative price was useful though. 

500 gallons is not a lot. A standard hose bib will flow at approx 2 gallons a minute (I think), so that’s about 4 hours of watering out of one hose bib.
 

the other thing to consider is the rate of discharge from your roof surface area. Ours is about 2500-3000 gallons per inch of rain. You’d be surprised how much rain you can harvest from a modest roof. 

you’ll need an overflow discharge plan as well. Especially with low capacity storage.

also keep in mind low capacity storage won’t get you through dry times it will capture water during wet times then it will be full and discard water (entire roof discharge from one spot which has its own problems to solve for) and when it gets droughty you’ve got a month of water max.

So capacity is something to consider both in terms of how much can you harvest and how much will you need when we are in drier times.

If you want any amount of pressure and drip and sprinklers will require it you’ll have to have a pump, possible a pressure tank but I don’t know. whole house def needs a pressure tank, ours is 25 psi I believe.
 

you can do these systems as a repeater system just get 3-4, you could bury them, still repeat them, or you could run gutters down from the house and run almost like a septic system at a slight grade below ground probs 1/4 inch decline per foot to a central tank that’s buried. They make flat tanks, deep tanks, and all sizes in between. Then you have the same pump style set up into a drip system or sprinkler set and a discharge for overflow that probably sticks out of the ground to an extent.
 

If you don’t have enough capacity you’ll need a valve to switch from municipal water to  rainwater for irrigation. So you’ll need to run the pumped water to the spot the irrigation system takes in municipal water and make a Y connection with two additional valves. Benefit there is you can drain your irrigation system when a freeze is coming.

 

you can also go smart home on this stuff and add a sensor, here’s ours with a reading from last fall.

 

Edited June 1 by troph

[tx 3 putt 76870]

I want to vacation at troph’s

[4th&Five 41511]

We have a system at our office. Really easy when you don’t have to make it safe to drink. Bidet is a bit cold in the winter and hot af in the summer. That’s my only complaint. 

[fattyflattie 4639]

On 6/1/2024 at 11:57 AM, troph said:

A standard hose bib will flow at approx 2 gallons a minute (I think)

Mine runs at 5.5G/min.  I tested it a year or so ago because of a commercial pressure washer I had needed 5 to run. Don’t know if that’s common or not but assume so.  

We have a 4500 or 5000g cistern system at the family place in Bandera.  It is nice water. I was living up there once when it didn’t appreciably rain for something like 300 days.  I trucked water in a few times.  Something like @troph has seems like normal life wouldn’t be interrupted.  

[troph 24781]

May be a house faucet is 2 gal but pressure and size varies so yeah it can be more. Point is though, a sprinkler system will eat through 500 gallons in no time.

[fattyflattie 4639]

9 hours ago, troph said:

May be a house faucet is 2 gal but pressure and size varies so yeah it can be more. Point is though, a sprinkler system will eat through 500 gallons in no time.

That’s probably right on the faucet.  Your setup is pretty bad ass.  Wish more could do that, we need some help on water usage. 

[UT_OB1 2217]

On 5/31/2024 at 9:56 PM, ROFL BOX said:

8.  For simple things like lawn irrigation (especially Xeriscaping), you don't need a lot other than a soaker hose setup.  Any elevated for will get you approx. 3.2 psi per foot, so if you're doing 50 gallon barrels, get those as high off the ground as you can build for & support.

 

It is 0.43 psi per foot of water column. 

[horn4life 3759]

Wow guys!  Lots of great info.  Though seeing troph's setup I feel like I am talking about a stack of home depot buckets and a soaker hose!

Having done a little research I have found that the City of Austin will pay you a rebate of $.50 cents for passive collection per gallon of storage, and $1 per gallon if you have a pump.  I assume the pump is so that this source can replace the sprinkler with pressurized water.  Up to $5000 max per property.  You can also apply for more rebates if you add on to system. I need to do some research on the Xeriscape side, as I might as well get the rebates I can.  

Thanks ROLF BOX for the hint about signing for rainwater collection to save the tax!  And the run lengths of guttering.  I have a long run cross the back and where I will need one downspout.  But with the whole backyard running downhill I am going to need to manage that downspout's flow in come manner. My problem is like most folks in Austin is a combination of limestone and live oak roots, preventing much downward storage.  However the steeper slope on that side of my house may give me an option to stagger height and partially bury at least one of the tanks.  Unfortunately the closest biggest valley off the roof on the collection side is right above the dining room window so no collection tank there! 😉

I also agree with the 500 gallons is not a lot assessment. But I also want to try and tuck the storage in on the side of the house making it less obtrusive. But I only have 8 feet to the property line on that skinny side, so I may have to look at staggering multiple smaller tanks to make it worth the while.  Or build the system to expand to extra tanks in the future is I am worried about capacity.  Less capacity may be OK depending on how much the new xeriscaping landscape will need.  Most of my stuff in the front yard is drought tolerant, simply to survive already but some plants love the agua more than others.  

This thread is a great example of why I love this site!  You can get so much great info and experience in an area with from five minutes on the lap top!  thanks guys!  

 

[troph 24781]

our system is fucking stupid, don't even worry about that. she did it so she could get green luxury home builds, the thing was a fucking boondoggle but if we count marketing for her business it will probably turn worth it/profitable in a few years.

the real gold standard imo for rainwater harvesting is to collect and store enough for your use, that's it. if you can avoid excessive piping all over the place for a nicer aesthetic that's good too.

for xeriscaping I'd hone in the following numbers:

* assuming no rain for 4 months, how much water do you need for your landscape?

* how much rainwater collection will your roof generate in one year (there are calculators for gallon per inch (annualized) x surface area)

* base that roof capacity on average rainfall minus 10 inches (that's what the last two years were)

that will back you into a tank size.

assume you need 500 gallons every two weeks for xeriscaping in the hot summer months. That's 4000 gallons over 4 months.

I bet your roof will generate 20,000 gallons easy, so you will have excess so your overflow drainage will be a major factor. or you calibrate to one gutter / one side of the roof but make sure your math checks out.

two ways to deal with overflow- use the water where you can (spring flowers might want water every other day, spring potted plants, etc.) - and then have an over flow plan.

 

 

Edited June 4 by troph

[Incredulity 11650]

On 5/31/2024 at 3:51 PM, troph said:

We did, nothing underground, basically drains in the trough of a butterfly roof then pvc through the house into a basement waterproofed concrete tank. Stored about 65,000 gallons. We have a shed roof too with a gutter than drops down the side of the house halfway then drains into the cistern through the subfloor. It’s enough for a family of four to live without much sacrifice or change in lifestyle.

Inside the tank is an aerator, pump, depth sensor, and a hatch that’s it. Pressure tank and filtration in the garage. Filtration is two carbon filters for particulate and UV light for microscopic organisms. Done and done.

I think the big cylinder poly tanks are an easier / better solution. Ours is a bit over kill.

if for landscaping only it’s super easy.

pex is a smart solution, there is super flexible pex and then the semi flexible. Great products.

here are a few pics of ours finished without water.

garage is above a lot of that ceiling, kitchen and mudroom too.

 

 

 

here’s the filtration, the box on the wall to the left is actually the first filter I didn’t mention above it comes through that from the roof and that filter catches big items. We don’t have much in the way of leaves etc so it’s a bit unnecessary. The box on the right is the water heater. The pressure tank is blue tank bottom left. The carbon filters and UV are the canisters in the middle the rest is the circulator pump. Apologies for the mess, I was really irritated about that I wanted a clean mechanical room and I got shit thrown up on the wall. Oh well, the system is pretty bad ass other than that eye sore.

 

This is awesome, but exactly my point.

Zero chance this system makes purely economic sense.  Especially if someone was going to add something like this to an existing home.

Really cool though.

[troph 24781]

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

This is awesome, but exactly my point.

Zero chance this system makes purely economic sense.  Especially if someone was going to add something like this to an existing home.

Really cool though.

you are correct, you can go absolutely insane on this shit.

I think I've called it "fucking stupid" at least twice on this thread, "boondoggle" once, and while I wouldn't call it "fucking stupid" to her face, I have called it "stupid" and a "boondoggle" in front of her more than a few times.

I will say this, when you don't have municipal water and a well or rainwater harvesting are your options, you go rainwater EVERY TIME and don't think twice. the water quality is not comparable.  And wells are getting more and more expensive, and less and less reliable around these parts.

Edited June 4 by troph

[Incredulity 11650]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

you are correct, you can go absolutely insane on this shit.

I think I've called it "fucking stupid" at least twice on this thread, "boondoggle" once, and while I wouldn't call it "fucking stupid" to her face, I have called it "stupid" and a "boondoggle" in front of her more than a few times.

I will say this, when you don't have municipal water and a well or rainwater harvesting are your options, you go rainwater EVERY TIME and don't think twice. the water quality is not comparable.  And wells are getting more and more expensive, and less and less reliable around these parts.

I wasn't trying to attack you, what you have is definitely a "commercial" grade system.  

Funny, I saw you posted essentially what I was saying right as I posted.

 

On another water conservation thread there was a link to some landscaping/water diversion website focused in Arizona maybe.  That had some really interesting things around site water retention.  Basically the conventional wisdom in the US for the last 100 or so years has been pipe it away.   The new thinking is settle and divert and let the water soak into the ground.

 

[troph 24781]

5 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

I wasn't trying to attack you, what you have is definitely a "commercial" grade system.  

Funny, I saw you posted essentially what I was saying right as I posted.

 

On another water conservation thread there was a link to some landscaping/water diversion website focused in Arizona maybe.  That had some really interesting things around site water retention.  Basically the conventional wisdom in the US for the last 100 or so years has been pipe it away.   The new thinking is settle and divert and let the water soak into the ground.

 

I didn't feel attacked at all. it's still batshit crazy. and I posted it to basically confirm your point.

it all started when we found out our water company is a "for profit" water company. Then we found out they have a minimum charge for access to water. What was supposed to be a $10,000 whole-house system turned into that. 

[Incredulity 11650]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

What was supposed to be a $10,000 whole-house system turned into that. 

LOL.

65,000 * 8lbs per gallon = 520,000 lbs of water.

There has to be $10,000 of structural engineering involved in that thing.  

[CleverNickname 1308]

We collect 2/3 of the ~1000 sq ft cabin roof (barndo) into a 1550 gallon poly tank up at the ranch. Backside goes to a separate 550 gallon tank just for wildlife waterer trough. It is our sole source of water. Cabin was off grid for a few years. Still haven't done a well. Plenty for quick showers and toilet flushes on frequent weekend visits. 

It is pretty simple. A 12v RV water pump moves the water via underground pipe, plugged into a cheapo 110v inverter. Can still plug into 12v marine batter as backup. I unplug the pump when I'm gone so that some leak doesn't flood everything and drain the tank. No major freeze damage to the tank bulkhead, but the pipes after the manual cutoff have burst if not drained adequately.

Rear tank is just a 550 tank on 4 courses of cinder blocks (28 total, 7x4). Enough height to trickle a wildlife trough about 75 feet away.

Rainwater gets into tank after going through leaf catcher and filling pvc first flush. I don't really water much with it, but I do douse with bleach every so often. Don't drink or brush teeth with the water. Sometimes I fill a 330 tank with overflow or pump into it and have a watering timer keeping a Monterey oak alive through the summer.

I think all my parts were just home depot 3" Pvc and assorted special bits from rainharvest.com. And those were just a downspout filter ($50) and a first flush T and float valve ($50).

[troph 24781]

6 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

LOL.

65,000 * 8lbs per gallon = 520,000 lbs of water.

There has to be $10,000 of structural engineering involved in that thing.  

we started with two 10,000 polymer tanks in a tank room down stairs, no big deal.

it's hard to put pricing on what that ultimately ended up being because the steel order included roof reinforcements, the concrete was for a lot more than that, rebar for the foundation, but in the end, steel I-beams, steel corrugated tray filled with 3 inches of concrete over the ceiling of that thing, 18 inch concrete walls reinforced with rebar to a stunning degree, but other than the tank set up (Ms. Lincoln other than your husband was assassinated, how was the play) the rest is pedestrian just PVC piping run through the framing, a pump, pressure tank and ordinary filtration system. I bet that part is $7500 all installed.

anyway, enough about that, I'm here to advocate for simplicity and sustainability.

[troph 24781]

1 minute ago, CleverNickname said:

We collect 2/3 of the ~1000 sq ft cabin roof (barndo) into a 1550 gallon poly tank up at the ranch. Backside goes to a separate 550 gallon tank just for wildlife waterer trough. It is our sole source of water. Cabin was off grid for a few years. Still haven't done a well. Plenty for quick showers and toilet flushes on frequent weekend visits. 

It is pretty simple. A 12v RV water pump moves the water via underground pipe, plugged into a cheapo 110v inverter. Can still plug into 12v marine batter as backup. I unplug the pump when I'm gone so that some leak doesn't flood everything and drain the tank. No major freeze damage to the tank bulkhead, but the pipes after the manual cutoff have burst if not drained adequately.

Rear tank is just a 550 tank on 4 courses of cinder blocks (28 total, 7x4). Enough height to trickle a wildlife trough about 75 feet away.

Rainwater gets into tank after going through leaf catcher and filling pvc first flush. I don't really water much with it, but I do douse with bleach every so often. Don't drink or brush teeth with the water. Sometimes I fill a 330 tank with overflow or pump into it and have a watering timer keeping a Monterey oak alive through the summer.

I think all my parts were just home depot 3" Pvc and assorted special bits from rainharvest.com. And those were just a downspout filter ($50) and a first flush T and float valve ($50).

show pics please.

[Incredulity 11650]

1 minute ago, troph said:

it's hard to put pricing on what that ultimately ended up being because the steel order included roof reinforcements, the concrete was for a lot more than that, rebar for the foundation, but in the end, steel I-beams, steel corrugated tray filled with 3 inches of concrete over the ceiling of that thing, 18 inch concrete walls reinforced with rebar to a stunning degree, but other than the tank set up (Ms. Lincoln other than your husband was assassinated, how was the play) the rest is pedestrian just PVC piping run through the framing, a pump, pressure tank and ordinary filtration system. I bet that part is $7500 all installed.

HOOOly Shit.

I'm laughing WITH you.  WOW, just wow.

[troph 24781]

5 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

HOOOly Shit.

I'm laughing WITH you.  WOW, just wow.

it's borderline embarrassing, no I take that back it's just embarrassing. if she wasn't a builder that could show it off and capture monied clients with it at 25-30% cost plus builds I would have lost my shit and we would not be together anymore. y'all think having a builder spouse is a benefit, fucking-a man, think again, think again.

the last thing I will say - to give her credit - the house is built for the next 100 years not the last. even in the worst of a drought this roof will catch enough water for a family of four for a year. long term water shortages may impact irrigation and pool use but not ordinary use. the concrete insulated walls especially downstairs will keep the house comfortable even in 110 degree heat and the solar panels power as much as half the home's energy needs. we would love to see pricing come down and a way to bring these technologies closer to mass production.

Edited June 4 by troph

[CleverNickname 1308]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

show pics please.

random shot. Way in the corner is the leaf diverted and the vertical pvc is the first flush. I should have the tank right there, but instead I have these aqueduct to take the water to the 1550 tank. It used to be a straight shot, but I built a carport to park a kawasaki mule.

Next Pic shows tank. The bulkhead and important buts are in that wood box. Inside is a ball valve. The pipe goes to a hole in the screw top lid. There is a screen there. Overflow goes to a trough. Lil oak is in the wire cage. Temp piping because O was building the carport amd it started raining on me. Thumb top left.

[ROFL BOX 6647]

Thanks ROLF BOX for the hint about signing for rainwater collection to save the tax!  And the run lengths of guttering.  I have a long run cross the back and where I will need one downspout. 
 

I don't know where your house is, however tomorrow I will be on 2 projects not far from 183 & MoPac. I could come over around 1730 or later to see what you have for slope, length of run, etc.