2024 Hurricane Season thread of DOOM

Herbie Hancock · October 4

I know each utility is buried to a certain depth to give each it's own right of way so to speak. I don't regularly deal with this, so I don't know the exact order or depth of each. It stands to reason that for safety reasons that electricity and gas would be two of the lowest though. As it applies to this conversation, the other really cool thing is that they can do all this under existing roads and sidewalks with disrupting them.

Idk what the depth for each is, or if there is one for each, but I can tell you that every fucking day for the last 9-ish years I have had to deal with 5-7 gas lines hit by fiber optic crews trying to install in neighborhoods. Fuck fuck fuck

msucolt45 · October 4

My Dad, Step Mom, Wife, and I spent a week, based out of Banner Elk, NC this past summer. Went all throughout that beautiful countryside and over the TN border for sight seeing. Loved Boone and the App State campus, so I really feel for those that live there.

Best wishes going forward to all suffering by this mess.

Hook’em!!!

Sgt Hulk · October 4

I’ve donated to aerial recovery group. Veterans and former operators on the ground flying in supplies. Using drones off road vehicles etc. it’s a gigantic mess I have some family in the area and it’s post apocalyptic

landman · October 4

5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Makes some sense, as that's when it's affordable (you're already digging utility trenches, just add electric lines to the mix). I'm sure it's still a bit more than putting them on poles, but not dramatically more. The real challenge is in retrofitting utilities where they already exist. I think of my old neighborhood, and the level of trenching etc. that would be required to install entirely new lines....sheeeeeit.

Yeah, retrofitting is absolutely cost prohibitive. But for new developments, it's not as simple as adding the electric to the mix. Completely separate trench - water, wastewater, storm, gas, and electric/telecom all have their own trenches, for the most part. Some areas you can have gas and electric in the same trench. Typical new subdivision will run you $5000-7500 per lot for gas and electric/telecom install, depending on if rock or dirt. And then there are the fees most electric providers charge on top of that - typically another $4-5000 per lot.

But talking with Austin Energy a couple of years ago after the snow storm and then the ice storm, they estimated over $25k per house to take NW Hills underground...

BamaATL · October 4

5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Huh. I was surprised to read your post, then googled it. Found some pretty plain-spoken negativity:

Something didn't mesh with numbers on all this with me so I did some crunching, just out of plain curiosity. So the initial, call it 20 billion expense (I'm using round numbers for ease, but bear with me) is against a customer base of approximately 20 million customers. Even if debt service and profit were figured for 10%, this would equate to roughly a $100 per customer increase annually, or $8.33 per month per customer. This is a bit misleading though, because this customer base includes commercial customers, who obviously consume more power. So I think it's fair to say, that the impact to most residential customers would be considerably less than even that. Even with the the cost over run, lets say you doubled it to the tune of $40 billion, and applied the same basic numbers, the math would say $16.66 per customer per month, which again includes commercial customers, which wildly skew the numbers.

What I'm getting at, is that this report seems to be very misleading, I'm going to guess that the average residential customer is only going to see a monthly increase of $8 per month, which given inflation is barely noticeable to most people (not to minimize the importance of it). This would also explain why no one is up in arms about it. I'd also point out, that the anti-nuclear group is the pushing narrative on the doomsday customer costs (hint they want coal).

As to the argument on the utility itself profiting off the over run, this to me is a separate issue, but at the end of the day, once you have a certain set sunk cost, in this case $15 billion, you have two options, either stop or keep going. If you stop, you spent $15 billion for essentially nothing, if you see the matter thru you paid more but it works. This really isn't much of a choice. No one is going to dead weight loss $15 billion, that'll assuredly get you tarred and feathered. In order to finish the job, there will be change orders and add on costs, so while I get the framing of the argument "Georgia Power shouldn't profit off it's mistakes!", anyone that has ever been around any sort of development knows that there will be over runs and change orders, this is normal. Interestingly enough, this exact circumstance occurred when Vogtle 1 and 2 started. Both were in mid construction right when 3 mile island happened and overnight the design had to be refined for additionally safety, which of course ballooned the project.

One other aspect about the budget over run, the plan first came to fruition in about 2006 with that budget. It was based on costs for the first 2 reactors that were completed 20 years early. For the next few years, the project had to thru regulatory review, and redesigned to meet the new regulatory demands. All this added tremendous cost, but was far from unexpected. I'd be willing to be that well over half the over run came before the project actually kicked off, and that very little of the overrun was due to actual construction change orders done post kick off.

baboso · October 4

RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH!!!!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pilot-flying-helene-rescue-missions-154942261.html

WBT · October 4

Kirk is out there in the Atlantic as a Cat 4 with 140 mph winds. It's expected to weaken to tropical storm strength before impacting the UK or northern France next week.

jimmyjazz · October 4

Mother Nature, you crazy.

freyguy · October 4

45 minutes ago, WBT said:

Kirk is out there in the Atlantic as a Cat 4 with 140 mph winds. It's expected to weaken to tropical storm strength before impacting the UK or northern France next week.

Francisco 2.0 · October 5

Another vital industry was affected:

https://arstechnica.com/health/2024/10/helene-ravaged-the-nc-plant-that-makes-60-of-the-countrys-iv-fluid-supply/

Quote

Hurricane Helene's catastrophic damage and flooding to the Southeastern states may affect the country's medical supply chain.

Hospitals nationwide are bracing for a possible shortage of essential intravenous fluids after the cataclysmic storm inundated a vital manufacturing plant in North Carolina.

The plant is Baxter International's North Cove manufacturing facility in Marion, which is about 35 miles northeast of Asheville. Helene unleashed unprecedented amounts of rain throughout the western part of the state, killing dozens and ravaging numerous communities, homes, and other structures, including the plant.

Quote

The North Cove plant produces 60 percent of the country's supply of IV solutions, typically producing 1.5 million bags per day, according to the American Hospital Association. The dozens of sterile solutions Baxter makes at the facility are used for everything from intravenous rehydration and drug delivery to peritoneal dialysis used to treat kidney failure.

"Our hearts and thoughts are with all those affected by Hurricane Helene," Baxter CEO José Almeida said in a statement on September 29. "The safety of our employees, their families, and the communities in which we operate remains our utmost concern, and we are committed to helping ensure reliable supply of products to patients. Remediation efforts are already underway, and we will spare no resource—human or financial—to resume production and help ensure patients and providers have the products they need."

Quote

On October 2, Mass General Brigham, Massachusetts’ largest hospital and health care system, warned employees via email of a "serious and immediate IV fluid shortage," according to the Boston Globe.

"We must immediately act to conserve fluids," the email said. "A Mass General Brigham incident Management Team is monitoring this very dynamic situation and will respond with appropriate measures as this unfolds."

Spoiler

On the same day, Baxter sent a letter to hospitals nationwide saying that it could only provide several IV products at 40 percent of normal supply levels, the Globe reported. Other hospital systems, including those in New Hampshire and Rhode Island, are also closely monitoring inventories and, in some cases, conserving supplies where possible. The Washington Post likewise reported that in Asheville, which was devastated by the flooding, staff at Mission Hospital were also told to start using IV fluids more sparingly.

In an update on Thursday, October 3, Baxter said that it had managed to reach a majority of its 2,500 North Cove employees, who had evacuated from the plant prior to the storm. But some are still unaccounted for and communication has been hampered by a lack of cell phone reception. In terms of the site's recovery process, the company said a temporary bridge has been created to reach the plant, but a permanent structure will need to be built in the coming weeks to move in equipment for repairs and move out inventory that was secured in preparation for the storm and survived. There is currently no timeline for when the plant can resume operation.

Baxter has established purchasing limits on current supplies to ensure equitable distribution of inventory. It is also working with the Food and Drug Administration to explore importing products from its global manufacturing network.

Edited October 5 by Francisco 2.0

Colonel Sanders · October 5

So what are we thinking on invest 92-L? Seems like it's getting more likely it will become Milton over the next few days and hit somewhere on the western FL coast.

Underdog · October 5

Dolly donating a million bucks… a one of a kind she is.

UTGrad98 · October 5

9 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

The North Cove plant produces 60 percent of the country's supply of IV solutions, typically producing 1.5 million bags per day, according to the American Hospital Association.

I work at an infusion pharmacy. There is no normal saline or any other solutions such as lactated ringers available to purchase. We have a good stock thankfully but we will eventually have to start making our own NS. Had to do this one other time when a major hurricane hit Puerto Rico back 6 or 7 years ago. It's not fun and extremely time consuming. It feels like being back in pharmacy school and having an assignment to make NS and other major solutions from scratch with only basic stock ingredients.

Herbie Hancock · October 5

I believe it was 2017 and the shortage for us was of NS, LR, D10 and Lidocaine because Baxter produced all of their shit in PR. I believe Braun has a factory down there as well, so I’m skeptical of there being an actual shortage and leaning towards price gouging fucksticks.

Fudge Nuggets · October 5

19 minutes ago, UTGrad98 said:

I work at an infusion pharmacy. There is no normal saline or any other solutions such as lactated ringers available to purchase. We have a good stock thankfully but we will eventually have to start making our own NS. Had to do this one other time when a major hurricane hit Puerto Rico back 6 or 7 years ago. It's not fun and extremely time consuming. It feels like being back in pharmacy school and having an assignment to make NS and other major solutions from scratch with only basic stock ingredients.

The struggle is real.

UTGrad98 · October 5

5 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

The struggle is real.

That would not pass muster unfortunately and I doubt any patient would want that in their veins. No we take concentrated saline and dilute it with sterile water in an iso 5 environment for stability and sterility.

Murfdogg21 · October 5

15 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

I believe it was 2017 and the shortage for us was of NS, LR, D10 and Lidocaine because Baxter produced all of their shit in PR. I believe Braun has a factory down there as well, so I’m skeptical of there being an actual shortage and leaning towards price gouging fucksticks.

I worked for an IV drug bag manufacturer for a few years. I don’t think it’s possible any single site makes “60% of the country’s supply of IV solutions.” However, inventories often run thin if demand increases over projections (can’t have millions of bags sitting around on pallets for months, so they don’t over produce). When a plant goes offline, it’s common for excess inventory from other companies to get bought up in days (I suspect a lot of hoarding by hospitals etc.). The other plants can compensate by running a third shift and maxing their capacity. That comes at a cost, and the contract price for the next order usually goes up 10-20%. Not exactly price gouging, but the manufacturers have costs associated with upping capacity and making sure the world doesn’t stock out of saline, ringers, dextrose, lidocaine, etc.

Prepuce of Doom · October 5

55 minutes ago, UTGrad98 said:

I work at an infusion pharmacy. There is no normal saline or any other solutions such as lactated ringers available to purchase. We have a good stock thankfully but we will eventually have to start making our own NS. Had to do this one other time when a major hurricane hit Puerto Rico back 6 or 7 years ago. It's not fun and extremely time consuming. It feels like being back in pharmacy school and having an assignment to make NS and other major solutions from scratch with only basic stock ingredients.

I hope this doesn't negatively impact your three-hour lunches!

Edited October 5 by Prepuce of Doom

UTGrad98 · October 5

5 minutes ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

I hope this doesn't negatively impact your three-hour lunches!

Have we worked together before?

fattyflattie · October 5

On 10/3/2024 at 8:55 PM, BamaATL said:

I know each utility is buried to a certain depth to give each it's own right of way so to speak. I don't regularly deal with this, so I don't know the exact order or depth of each. It stands to reason that for safety reasons that electricity and gas would be two of the lowest though. As it applies to this conversation, the other really cool thing is that they can do all this under existing roads and sidewalks with disrupting them.

Electricity has more to do with the ampacity losses by distance and heat. Burial of transmission lines had accounted for about 70% of our projects in last 5 years or so. Boring with anything bigger than the little Vermeer and ditch witch rigs you are seeing in your hood is very, very expensive compared to just open trenching. But, what isn’t expensive these days?

BamaATL · October 5

3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Electricity has more to do with the ampacity losses by distance and heat. Burial of transmission lines had accounted for about 70% of our projects in last 5 years or so. Boring with anything bigger than the little Vermeer and ditch witch rigs you are seeing in your hood is very, very expensive compared to just open trenching. But, what isn’t expensive these days?

That's interesting, because I actually was never thinking of burying main transmission lines, primarily because I was thinking that was completely impractical. Also, from what I understand, the main lines generally do well in high winds, particularly because they are designed and rated for it. I was thinking of mainly branch lines. Basically, I didn't even know the utility companies were going this route. I'm sure there is a good reason for this, can you enlighten?

fattyflattie · October 5

4 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

That's interesting, because I actually was never thinking of burying main transmission lines, primarily because I was thinking that was completely impractical. Also, from what I understand, the main lines generally do well in high winds, particularly because they are designed and rated for it. I was thinking of mainly branch lines. Basically, I didn't even know the utility companies were going this route. I'm sure there is a good reason for this, can you enlighten?

Houston lost several transmission towers in a storm earlier this year, causing additional widespread loss of power. Mostly in large ROWs that would be very easy and “cheap” to incorporate underground (through ditching or drilling). My work mainly encompasses coastal areas (think Miami, where power has to go from mainland substations to all the islands and port). Also, cities that want to install new substation networks in the middle of existing infrastructure, ie: substation to substation, don’t want to trench miles between them disrupting roads and existing structures. Most of our bores are between 3500’ and 9500’, typically 48-60”. Typical depths are 100-150’ on horizontal tangent, leaving the entry and exit on 12-15* depending on geology and any existing interferences. The East coast has been burying quite a bit as well (done ALOT of work in VA/DC). All the permitted offshore farms will be buried from offshore structure to inland bank. Louisiana was going to bury a bunch of their coastal lines a few years ago (likely being pushed by the LNG plants) but they scrapped that. Funding probably went to NIL or something, who knows.

PenelopeWitherspoon · October 5

Just here to say how sad this whole situation is, and I completely feel for the folks who thought they would be ok as they are far enough inland or far away from the storm's landfall (see Harvey).

Chimney Rock State Park is where these scenes from Last of the Mohicans were filmed.

Hagbard Celine · October 5

raging over the douche lake lure fire official

PTINS · October 5

On 10/3/2024 at 5:31 PM, Brisketexan said:

Huh. I was surprised to read your post, then googled it. Found some pretty plain-spoken negativity:

On 10/3/2024 at 5:39 PM, BamaATL said:

There was some level of criticism (as well there should have been for over-runs), and it was reported upon within the media, however, I've never once heard any rank and file customer bitch about it once. The total costs make it a juicy story because of the big dollar signs, but the reality for most customers is that it's doubtful they've even noticed. Timing might have been kind to this situation given the state of inflation on everything else. Most customers are aware that even in spite of over-runs, we still have some of the lowest rates going.

As always, consider the source.

A nuke is always going to have the highest installed cost per kw of generation capacity. That is not anywhere close to the same thing as the cost per kw-hr, the actual cost of the produced power. But "$10,000 per kw" sure makes a good headline when your paying $0.10/kw-hr.

On 10/3/2024 at 6:35 PM, BamaATL said:

Well, old school developments (at least around here) when doing your site work and roughing in utilities, you'd have to dig trenches for everything, from beginning to end. In order to do this, you'd need lots of equipment digging and then guys to run the line, followed by re-burying it (and a bunch of other shit I'm leaving out). With this equipment, I've seen a crew of three guys do a 100 or so home new development in a matter of a couple of weeks. ...

I don't know who pioneered this, but it's pretty cool stuff.

Yes, directional drilling has made a lot of things better, including minimizing the impact of buried utilities.

On 10/3/2024 at 11:50 PM, BamaATL said:

Something didn't mesh with numbers on all this with me so I did some crunching, just out of plain curiosity.

What I'm getting at, is that this report seems to be very misleading, I'm going to guess that the average residential customer is only going to see a monthly increase of $8 per month, which given inflation is barely noticeable to most people (not to minimize the importance of it). This would also explain why no one is up in arms about it. I'd also point out, that the anti-nuclear group is the pushing narrative on the doomsday customer costs (hint they want coal).

As to the argument on the utility itself profiting off the over run, this to me is a separate issue, but at the end of the day, once you have a certain set sunk cost, in this case $15 billion, you have two options, either stop or keep going. If you stop, you spent $15 billion for essentially nothing, if you see the matter thru you paid more but it works. This really isn't much of a choice. No one is going to dead weight loss $15 billion, that'll assuredly get you tarred and feathered. In order to finish the job, there will be change orders and add on costs, so while I get the framing of the argument "Georgia Power shouldn't profit off it's mistakes!", anyone that has ever been around any sort of development knows that there will be over runs and change orders, this is normal. Interestingly enough, this exact circumstance occurred when Vogtle 1 and 2 started. Both were in mid construction right when 3 mile island happened and overnight the design had to be refined for additionally safety, which of course ballooned the project.

One other aspect about the budget over run, the plan first came to fruition in about 2006 with that budget. It was based on costs for the first 2 reactors that were completed 20 years early. For the next few years, the project had to thru regulatory review, and redesigned to meet the new regulatory demands. All this added tremendous cost, but was far from unexpected. I'd be willing to be that well over half the over run came before the project actually kicked off, and that very little of the overrun was due to actual construction change orders done post kick off.

A collaboration of No-Nukes entities generated a report aligned with their interest? Who woulda thunk?

The China Syndrome movie was released 2 weeks before the 3 Mile Island accident happened. After that, the City of Austin tried to back out of their ownership in the South Texas Nuclear Project. They literally couldn't give it away. Similar issues with the sunk cost with nothing to off set it. Austin Energy is an owner of the plant that has generated ~ 20,000 Giga-watts-hours pf power every year since 2001.

The reaction to 3 Mile Island necessitated a review of all Nuclear Projects, with good reason. However, that review included adding huge costs to plants under construction, including some changes that were way beyond reason, but still required.

To be clear, I took Nuclear Engineering classes and toured Comanche Peak and TVA facilities. Then, the 3MI accident happened. My interest in Nukes ... zero. My job offers ... from every entity looking for nuclear engineers. The NRC called me at home.

I swore I would never work for an O&G company and never live in Houston.

I wanted to build solar houses on Lake Travis. My job offers ... zero.

Maybe computers? No one told me IBM was "Big Blue." I wore a khaki suite to me interview.

Then, the Iranian revolution exploded. "No Nukes", and oil prices quadrupled.

Demand for engineers peaked. 250+ companies recruited Texas for Engineers. Some of those that came at the end of the semester couldn't get anybody to interview. Best time in history to be an engineering graduate.

$in City (Hou$ton), here I come.

Of all the complaints consumers in Texas have with their electric power providers, the cost of electricity barely moves the needle.

Storm the Field · October 5

locodos · October 5

4 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

screen name checks out

SquishMitten · October 5

4 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

The struggle is real.

Yeah, hard pass on someone filling my IV bag from the kitchen sink.

AUS-97HORN · October 5

56 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

Team Milton

J.R. Juniors Junior Jr. · October 5

1 hour ago, locodos said:

screen name checks o

1 hour ago, Storm the Field said:

1 hour ago, Storm the Field said:

What the hell? That was supposed to be an unnamed rain event just yesterday.

WBT · October 5

1 hour ago, locodos said:

screen name checks out

That's a spinoff from Space City Weather which is a great Houston weather site. The Eyewall covers all hurricanes now rather than just focusing on Houston. Both sites are very good.

Deej · October 5

Have a friend volunteering in eastern Tennessee and she says the number of dead being recovered is woefully under reported.

locodos · October 5

1 hour ago, WBT said:

That's a spinoff from Space City Weather which is a great Houston weather site. The Eyewall covers all hurricanes now rather than just focusing on Houston. Both sites are very good.

ok cool,

I was referring to @Storm the Field

InkaUtexas · October 5

4 hours ago, Storm the Field said:

Team yesterday said this would be nothing. I laughed and said nah, cat 1 or 2 when it hits the coast.

They laughed. So get to redo the entire response plan the response team came up with. Dumbasses

Hagbard Celine · October 5

1 hour ago, Deej said:

Have a friend volunteering in eastern Tennessee and she says the number of dead being recovered is woefully under reported.

the 1906 SF earthquake official body count was 500 but was actually more than 3000, so more than '9/11'

if there were 800 missing and 150ish bodies it stands to reason the rest are no longer with us

InkaUtexas · October 5

2 hours ago, J.R. Juniors Junior Jr. said:

What the hell? That was supposed to be an unnamed rain event just yesterday.

Some said that. Others were saying ah shit.... I went with the Ah shit team. All Florida going to get a taste this year.

WBT · October 5

56 minutes ago, locodos said:

ok cool,

I was referring to @Storm the Field

Evil Bill Obrien · October 6

Got family and friends in Tarpon Springs, Bradenton and Sarasota so not too thrilled reading into this. Have had lots of close misses or glancing blows from Hurricane recently but don't think anyone living in that area has ever been through a direct hit from a major hurricane there.

Dnaguy · October 6

On 10/4/2024 at 12:19 PM, WBT said:

Kirk is out there in the Atlantic as a Cat 4 with 140 mph winds. It's expected to weaken to tropical storm strength before impacting the UK or northern France next week.

Yeah it’ll likely weaken to a tropical depression before affecting [checks notes]
Sweden?!

Brisketexan · October 6

Yeah it’ll likely weaken to a tropical depression before affecting [checks notes]
Sweden?!

Yeah…they’ll handle that…well.

I hope that Inga makes it out ok.

Hate · October 6

Sweden? But she’s wearing lederhosen.

BrickTop · October 6

RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH!!!!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pilot-flying-helene-rescue-missions-154942261.html

This is horrifying

GSU&UT · October 6

I sadly don't visit Surly that much any more, and maybe this was covered to some degree, but Augusta Georgia got absolutely fucked by Helene. Too much of the coverage when you search is of the Augusta National, honestly fuck them because they could donate a whole lot more for the community than 5 mil and they'll be fine. My parents house, the house and neighborhood grew up in got absolutely decimated. It's quite likely a tornado spawned because the pine trees ripped through houses like a buzzsaw.

This is my parents, my old, house. My dad had many of the pine trees cut around the house over the past decade but the one left was this one.

hookemATL · October 6

37 minutes ago, BrickTop said:

This is horrifying

Fire chief should’ve gone into policing. Would have matched up more with his cunty fucking behavior and attitude. Fat piece of shit.

GSU&UT · October 6

These are the rest my sister took, they're potato quality but all from the neighborhood.

Here's a few videos I found that someone else posted on Twitter

GreenspointTexas · October 6

43 minutes ago, GSU&UT said:

These are the rest my sister took, they're potato quality but all from the neighborhood.

Here's a few videos I found that someone else posted on Twitter

Looks like the derecho we had in houston 5 monthd ago

hornbri · October 6

20 hours ago, Storm the Field said:

That’s crazy. I can’t recall a storm that moved that far east from the gulf.

BamaATL · October 6

Missed the game yesterday, probably a nothing burger (right? right?) to help package up at the food bank. The folks that deliver said they haven't been able to get into western Carolina, but had to south Georgia and Augusta. They called the situation grim.

Aqua Buddha · October 6

23 hours ago, Storm the Field said:

It's now been upgrade to "major" status. That literally escalated quickly:

locodos · October 6

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