The WAY too early June Presidential Debate thread

[David Dennison 18661]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

I LOVE Obama but I fail to see how he’s that high. He was stymied after ACA. He was an also the king of drone killings. 

Forget Obama, how the hell is Clinton that high?

[SimonBolivar 10938]

10 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

 But you can argue with a brain injury fellowship trained doc if you want.  

[SimonBolivar 10938]

27 minutes ago, MotownHorn said:

I'm one of the 159 presidential scholars who took part in this survey. I think an interesting result is that if you scroll to the last figure, even Republican and conservative scholars rate Trump as one of the very worst presidents of all time (of course, 95 of the scholars were Dems so to be fair that biases the results a bit overall). 

Neat, I'm in the early stages of doing my thesis on the difference between the nation's civil religious response to the deaths of Lincoln and Tyler. Do you want to do it for me for 3 Best Buy coupons and a couple HDMI slots? 

[Red Five 40676]

39 minutes ago, MotownHorn said:

I'm one of the 159 presidential scholars who took part in this survey.

Wow, Biden indirectly mentioned a Surly poster in a presidential debate. Never thought I'd see the day.

[WhatTheBuck 28717]

1 hour ago, TexArcher said:

At this time, I'd rate GWB dead last.  Any credit he gets for handling the immediate aftermath of 9/11 is undone by the fact that we subsequently killed 600,000 civilians in the wrong freaking country so that his VP's company could rebuild it on an illegal no-bid government contract.  He was also President during the two worst stock market drops since the Great Depression.

And I had to preface that with "At this time," because if re-elected, Trump is gonna do some shit that makes us miss GWB, who was only stupid and weak, not pure evil.

Trump is worse than GWB. I’d rank Bush second-to-last, right behind Trump. Bush destroyed our reputation on the world stage and the invasion of Iraq was the worst foreign policy blunder of all time. But Trump’s assault on American constitutional democracy itself tops that, imo. Bush ignored all the warnings and allowed 9/11 to happen then failed in his response. Trump’s failed response to a pandemic led to a daily 9/11 of Americans dying while he stood up and declared that he took “no responsibility.”

At least Bush had PEPFAR. 

[Red Five 40676]

"On January 6, we were respected around the world." - Dotard

Think I was too horrified by Biden's performance/appearance to really take in all the crazy shit Trump spouted. 

"You're a convicted felon."  "Oh yeah well your son is a convicted felon! Some high level crimes!"  Yes some of the most horrific incorrect box-checking on a form this country has ever seen. 

Too bad that's where the convicted felon talk ended. Top notch work Joe.

[TonyTexas 10482]

Perfect

 

 

[WhatTheBuck 28717]

2 hours ago, Red Five said:

"On January 6, we were respected around the world." - Dotard

Think I was too horrified by Biden's performance/appearance to really take in all the crazy shit Trump spouted. 

"You're a convicted felon."  "Oh yeah well your son is a convicted felon! Some high level crimes!"  Yes some of the most horrific incorrect box-checking on a form this country has ever seen. 

Too bad that's where the convicted felon talk ended. Top notch work Joe.

The world thinks Trump is a joke. Nobody respects him.

[Paul Wesley 3277]

2 hours ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Don’t forget about him nominating Alito

If we're talking about GWB judicial failures and foreign policy failures, let's also remember his fiscal failures.   GWB inherited something very close to a balanced budget in 2000, and was elected in large part due to the relentless "balanced budget amendment" and "term limits" mantras of the 1990's GOP.  Fast forward only 8 short years later, and he handed off the wild, unchecked fiscal house of cards that continues to this day.  

Tax cuts for the very wealthiest Americans.  Corporate capture of the agencies intended to protect the best interests of the average American.

In 2004, with growing public disenchantment with a bungled war and a close election, he made a deal with big Pharma to transfer/privatize countless billions of dollars.  That also continues today.

The wars he started accounted for about 25% of America's total cumulative deficit at one point.  Like 300 million *PER DAY* for decades.  What do we have to show for all that lost treasure?

Imagine how transformative those seven trillion dollars could have been for our society:   Infrastructure.  Schools.  Transportation.  High-tech education.  Re-tooling American factories to keep more manufacturing jobs at home.  Investment in clean energy.

Ugh.

 

 

[Snake Diggity 4614]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

The world thinks Trump is a joke. Nobody respects him.

Not sure why Biden doesn’t mention this kind of thing in speeches and debates.  “Donald, everywhere you go abroad, except places run by fascist madmen, the people ridicule you incessantly, and fly giant balloons of you in a diaper…you know, because the rest of the world views you as a tittybaby.”

[mdmost 42866]

15 hours ago, troph said:

Yeah not saying the debate was anything other than a performance disaster but it is looking like many saw Trump just as bad or worse. I think it was @immamac who said read the transcript, Biden’s words even with the mishaps were much stronger and relevant than trump’s 10 lies per minute. I’m becoming cautiously optimistic that enough people just don’t want Trump, period. 

Trump plays well with those who are angry about the state of the world. Anyone who feels they would like the country to be better can't get past how he never answered a single question and just blamed Biden or migrants for everything. I doubt he won over that many people with his performance. Biden probably lost some but I don't think those are people that will pull the lever for Trump. They'll just be discouraged or apathetic and stay home. Biden needs to have a much better 2nd debate. People will tune it to see if he does better or has another shitty performance. If he does, we're screwed. 

[956 Worldwide 34460]

There are so many shittier 19th century presidents than GWB, LOL.  Some true zeros and assholes. 
 

Millennium Challenge Corporation alone keeps him out of the bottom five. 

Edited June 29 by 956 Worldwide

[mdmost 42866]

That son of a bitch Andrew Johnson was probably the worst 19th century president.

[HornOnTheBayou 8881]

7 hours ago, Red Five said:

Wow, Biden indirectly mentioned a Surly poster in a presidential debate. Never thought I'd see the day.

Donald Jr will top that when he picks Fitlump to be his running mate in the 2032 election.

[troph 24575]

3 hours ago, mdmost said:

Trump plays well with those who are angry about the state of the world. Anyone who feels they would like the country to be better can't get past how he never answered a single question and just blamed Biden or migrants for everything. I doubt he won over that many people with his performance. Biden probably lost some but I don't think those are people that will pull the lever for Trump. They'll just be discouraged or apathetic and stay home. Biden needs to have a much better 2nd debate. People will tune it to see if he does better or has another shitty performance. If he does, we're screwed. 

Yeah I think many who were super focused on Biden didn’t really see how horrible Trump was he was pretty disgusting with it all.  Just a lying outrage machine. 

[4th&Five 41461]

I’ve been on vacation and luckily haven’t seen a single second of the debate or heard a single person talking about it. Great timing. 

[dcbc 14420]

[pacman 7331]

Biden's campaign team are ... not smart..

[Red Five 40676]

That is malpractice.

[mdmost 42866]

The NY Times, shitbags that they are, was fact checking Trump and  Biden on the feed I was watching since I don't have CNN. 

But again, fuck the Times. When they write that a rapist and convicted felon should drop out of the race, only then can they unfuck themselves. 

[NWBuck 8548]

14 minutes ago, mdmost said:

The NY Times, shitbags that they are, was fact checking Trump and  Biden on the feed I was watching since I don't have CNN. 

But again, fuck the Times. When they write that a rapist and convicted felon should drop out of the race, only then can they unfuck themselves. 

Well, someone has finally written that...

To serve his country, Donald Trump should leave the race | Editorial

Biden had a horrible night Thursday. But the debate about the debate is misplaced. The only person who should withdraw from the race is Trump.

[Hookah Horns 3082]

13 hours ago, Paul Wesley said:

If we're talking about GWB judicial failures and foreign policy failures, let's also remember his fiscal failures.   GWB inherited something very close to a balanced budget in 2000, and was elected in large part due to the relentless "balanced budget amendment" and "term limits" mantras of the 1990's GOP.  Fast forward only 8 short years later, and he handed off the wild, unchecked fiscal house of cards that continues to this day.  

Tax cuts for the very wealthiest Americans.  Corporate capture of the agencies intended to protect the best interests of the average American.

In 2004, with growing public disenchantment with a bungled war and a close election, he made a deal with big Pharma to transfer/privatize countless billions of dollars.  That also continues today.

The wars he started accounted for about 25% of America's total cumulative deficit at one point.  Like 300 million *PER DAY* for decades.  What do we have to show for all that lost treasure?

Imagine how transformative those seven trillion dollars could have been for our society:   Infrastructure.  Schools.  Transportation.  High-tech education.  Re-tooling American factories to keep more manufacturing jobs at home.  Investment in clean energy.

Ugh.

 

 

He also was the original Moron President who said some of the dumbest shit anyone had heard a POTUS say up to that time. He did real damage to our standing in the world just by coming across as a rube. 

[LTbear 4161]

My hatred for Trump can maybe be best summarized by just how enthusiastically I'd take W over him. In a heartbeat.

[David Dennison 18661]

8 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

He also was the original Moron President who said some of the dumbest shit anyone had heard a POTUS say up to that time. He did real damage to our standing in the world just by coming across as a rube. 

That is saying a lot considering Ronald Reagan came before him.

[DixonHur 11234]

10 hours ago, David Dennison said:

That is saying a lot considering Ronald Reagan came before him.

@David Dennison, just curious, how old are you... a range is fine.

I ask because I don't recall Ronald Reagan saying stupid things.  But I was between 9 and 17 when he was President and my family were full on Reagan Republicans.

 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13552]

39 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I ask because I don't recall Ronald Reagan saying stupid things.

He said if government helped those who needed it the least it would help those who needed it the most. 

[DixonHur 11234]

1 hour ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

He said if government helped those who needed it the least it would help those who needed it the most. 

That's not stupid in the context I'm talking about, it's just misguided and wrong.

Examples of saying "stupid things" are gaffs like "fool me once, don't get fooled again", or "cofefe".

I just don't remember Reagan being like that as President,or being  contemporaneously considered an idiot by the general population.  

I remember him being well liked, with nearly 70% approval ratings.  

 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13552]

24 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

That's not stupid in the context I'm talking about, it's just misguided and wrong.

 

 

I get what you're saying, but it WAS stupid and more consequential than "covfefe" or "omg, Gore said he invented the internet!" or "is our children learning?" That stupid cornerstone idea becoming orthodoxy to a constituency also indoctrinated into believing pride is a virtue and not a vice is why were at where we're at now. Except for the few, there is no exit ramp or option than to double down. 

[Hookah Horns 3082]

2 hours ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

I get what you're saying, but it WAS stupid and more consequential than "covfefe" or "omg, Gore said he invented the internet!" or "is our children learning?" That stupid cornerstone idea becoming orthodoxy to a constituency also indoctrinated into believing pride is a virtue and not a vice is why were at where we're at now. Except for the few, there is no exit ramp or option than to double down. 

That's just not the kind of stupidity I was talking about. GWB and Dotard stand alone as presidents who regularly evinced that they're dumber than an average 8th grader. They embarrassed this country just about every time they spoke. 

As for the Reagan cornerstone you've cited, it's quite possible he didn't even believe that shit and it was just your typical disingenuous and nonsensical justification for the right's selfish, greedy assholery. 

[WhatTheBuck 28717]

5 hours ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

Gore said he invented the internet!

For the record, Gore never said that.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/internet-of-lies/

[Creasy Bear 665]

On 6/27/2024 at 9:33 PM, Covri said:

I have no doubt that Joe is a 6 handicap, man is alpha all the way. Beta Don on the other hand has to cheat to win while wearing his mother’s wrist watch. Sad. 

This is the funniest thing I've ever read on this board.  Good work!

[David Dennison 18661]

12 hours ago, DixonHur said:

That's not stupid in the context I'm talking about, it's just misguided and wrong.

Examples of saying "stupid things" are gaffs like "fool me once, don't get fooled again", or "cofefe".

I just don't remember Reagan being like that as President,or being  contemporaneously considered an idiot by the general population.  

I remember him being well liked, with nearly 70% approval ratings.  

I'm 52. 

You must not remember Ronnie's funny little joke about bombing the USSR on a hot mike. Or claiming that Russian had no word for freedom. Or saying,  "Facts are stupid things."

But don't take my word for it.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2004/06/the-stupidity-of-ronald-reagan.html

[bolverk 29414]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I'm 52. 

You must not remember Ronnie's funny little joke about bombing the USSR on a hot mike. Or claiming that Russian had no word for freedom. Or saying,  "Facts are stupid things."

But don't take my word for it.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2004/06/the-stupidity-of-ronald-reagan.html

He also said stupid shit like (not direct quotes):

• "I know the horrors of war, because I wore a uniform for four years" when he spent WW2 pretending to be a soldier as a Hollywood actor
• "Plants cause most air pollution"
• "All the nuclear waste from a nuclear reactor could fit underneath my desk"
• Something about the prophecies of Armageddon coming true was imminent back in the 1980s

The dude was kooky and dumb, but the media and his team let all that shit slide.

@DixonHur At no point did he ever hit 70%. Hell, half of his presidency was at or below 50% approval. I just turned 53 last month and can remember those quotes being mentioned in the news, but I do think he was given a pass on a lot of stuff. Yes, that's obviously better than Biden, Trump, or even Obama. Still, there's a reason why we can all point back to his time in office, which was such a pivotal moment in the country's trajectory that eventually led us here.    

I just turned 53 last month and can remember those quotes being mentioned in the news, but I do think he was given a pass on a lot of stuff.

[DixonHur 11234]

57 minutes ago, bolverk said:

He also said stupid shit like (not direct quotes):

• "I know the horrors of war, because I wore a uniform for four years" when he spent WW2 pretending to be a soldier as a Hollywood actor
• "Plants cause most air pollution"
• "All the nuclear waste from a nuclear reactor could fit underneath my desk"
• Something about the prophecies of Armageddon coming true was imminent back in the 1980s

The dude was kooky and dumb, but the media and his team let all that shit slide.

@DixonHur At no point did he ever hit 70%. Hell, half of his presidency was at or below 50% approval. I just turned 53 last month and can remember those quotes being mentioned in the news, but I do think he was given a pass on a lot of stuff. Yes, that's obviously better than Biden, Trump, or even Obama. Still, there's a reason why we can all point back to his time in office, which was such a pivotal moment in the country's trajectory that eventually led us here.    

I just turned 53 last month and can remember those quotes being mentioned in the news, but I do think he was given a pass on a lot of stuff.

I'm not trying to defend Ronny... I just don't recall him being ridiculed for his stupidity like W or Trump.

And I said "nearly 70%"... but, I just looked, and my memory was off a bit.  He spent most of 85 thru 86 in the 60% range with a high of 68% in May of 86.  That must have been the time frame I was coming into my political awareness... I would have been 14-15 years old at the time.

Either way, over his 8 years in office his average and median approval ratings were both 52%.  

In contrast, Biden began his first term with a 55% approval rating (Ronny was at 51%) and is currently at 37%.. (with a 57% disapproval rating) on July 2, 1984 (re-election year) Reagan's approval rating was at 53% (with 37% disapproval rating).  I'd kill for a Biden approval rating of 53%.

To add to my nervousness, at this point in 2020, Trump's approval rating was 39%.

Edited July 1 by DixonHur

[David Dennison 18661]

The Democrats better get their shit together in a hurry.

[Foosters 17734]

1 hour ago, Creasy Bear said:

This is the funniest thing I've ever read on this board.  Good work!

you're right. to be a true alpha you need to whine incessantly about how mean everyone is to you

[Beantown Express 2.0 6555]

11 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I'm not trying to defend Ronny... I just don't recall him being ridiculed for his stupidity like W or Trump.

And I said "nearly 70%"... but, I just looked, and my memory was off a bit.  He spent most of 85 thru 86 in the 60% range with a high of 68% in May of 86.  That must have been the time frame I was coming into my political awareness... I would have been 14-15 years old at the time.

Either way, over his 8 years in office his average and median approval ratings were both 52%.  

In contrast, Biden began his first term with a 55% approval rating (Ronny was at 51%) and is currently at 37%.. (with a 57% disapproval rating) on July 2, 1984 (re-election year) Reagan's approval rating was at 53% (with 37% disapproval rating).  I'd kill for a Biden approval rating of 53%.

To add to my nervousness, at this point in 2020, Trump's approval rating was 39%.

I would argue that Biden's number is under 40% not because of the job he is doing or the state of the country but because the right-wing media is so strong with their propaganda that they have scared half the country into believing their country is shit and their lives are terrible.  Bush Sr and Carter actually dealt with economic issues like a recession that caused many of their low polling numbers.  Trumps is low because he was a fucking terrible President, and it should actually be lower.  I bet most of the people voting and giving Biden a low approval rating are actually doing really well in the world like have a good job, nice house, friends and family, going on vacations and own all the toys they want yet when asked about the country they tell the pollsters its terrible (because Fox News told them it is).  

[bolverk 29414]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

I'm not trying to defend Ronny... I just don't recall him being ridiculed for his stupidity like W or Trump.

And I said "nearly 70%"... but, I just looked, and my memory was off a bit.  He spent most of 85 thru 86 in the 60% range with a high of 68% in May of 86.  That must have been the time frame I was coming into my political awareness... I would have been 14-15 years old at the time.

Either way, over his 8 years in office his average and median approval ratings were both 52%.  

In contrast, Biden began his first term with a 55% approval rating (Ronny was at 51%) and is currently at 37%.. (with a 57% disapproval rating) on July 2, 1984 (re-election year) Reagan's approval rating was at 53% (with 37% disapproval rating).  I'd kill for a Biden approval rating of 53%.

To add to my nervousness, at this point in 2020, Trump's approval rating was 39%.

I wasn't saying that you were defending him -- only that your memory of his overwhelming popularity might be off.

538 offers a good comparison of each modern-era president's popularity in their first four years (you can also click on the button to show 8 years for the 2 termers and will see Ronnie's popularity plummet during his second term after Iran Contra.

Below shows how he's performing against all the presidents during my lifespan. But, yeah, based on these charts, I share your nervousness (green line is Biden).

[Js1 85131]

Unfortunately, that top left box is the new norm.  Never going to see a POTUS with 55+% approvals ever again. Not even a 9/11 type of event will do it. We are too polarized. 

[wildcat09 29267]

1 hour ago, Js1 said:

Unfortunately, that top left box is the new norm.  Never going to see a POTUS with 55+% approvals ever again. Not even a 9/11 type of event will do it. We are too polarized. 

Yup. The GOP will never approve of any halfway decent man as President and they'll never nominate anyone who isn't one of the biggest pieces of shit in the history of the world.  

[DixonHur 11234]

4 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I would argue that Biden's number is under 40% not because of the job he is doing or the state of the country but because the right-wing media is so strong with their propaganda that they have scared half the country into believing their country is shit and their lives are terrible. 

And I would agree with you, but I don't think it matters why... just that it is.

Just like when Texas lost to Bama because the refs miss a blatant holding call.  We didn't end up with fewer points because we were the worse team... but we still lost.

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

I wasn't saying that you were defending him -- only that your memory of his overwhelming popularity might be off.

538 offers a good comparison of each modern-era president's popularity in their first four years (you can also click on the button to show 8 years for the 2 termers and will see Ronnie's popularity plummet during his second term after Iran Contra.

Below shows how he's performing against all the presidents during my lifespan. But, yeah, based on these charts, I share your nervousness (green line is Biden).

 

Yes and no.  He started his second term at 64%, then Iran Contra happened, at the end of '86, and he plummeted to a low of 43%... but was back to 63% at the end of 1988.

[Sawbonz 27443]

6 hours ago, bolverk said:

Plants cause most air pollution

[YGIFS 19449]

So in addition to wind cancer, I gotta worry about plant cancer caused by the winds blowing the plant stuff into my lungs?  

But we don't live inside a simulation?  Got it.  Check.  

What's next?  You guessed it.  'Grass Cancer' 

[gmr548 16519]

On 6/28/2024 at 8:57 PM, troph said:

Yeah not saying the debate was anything other than a performance disaster but it is looking like many saw Trump just as bad or worse. I think it was @immamac who said read the transcript, Biden’s words even with the mishaps were much stronger and relevant than trump’s 10 lies per minute. I’m becoming cautiously optimistic that enough people just don’t want Trump, period. 

The only silver lining is there has been zero expression of anything like "hey Trump was not so bad!"

Focus groups and anecdotal evidence point toward people just thinking we are turbofucked.

[Creasy Bear 665]

On 6/27/2024 at 11:53 PM, Chuckie Finster said:

I love Joe. He makes the very shortlist of best presidents in my lifetime.

Anyone trying to wave this off as just a “lost debate” is whistling past the graveyard. His core vulnerability is his age, and his performance validated and accentuated any and all criticisms in this arena. This is not an issue he can improve on or get coached up: he’s just old as fuck.

There is a zero percent chance that the man on that stage tonight will win the election. I hate typing that sentence, but I am as certain of it as I have been of anything in politics. The American people are stupid but simple, and “too old to lead” is about as simple as it gets and takes minimal effort to reach this conclusion.

I understand the arguments against replacing him, I’ve made them myself on this very site. But not doing anything will guarantee MAGA 2.0.

You're 3.5 years old?  Impressive.

[TeeDubya 3358]

On 6/28/2024 at 10:57 PM, troph said:

I’m becoming cautiously optimistic that enough people just don’t want Trump, period. 

[Anastasis 23398]

On 6/27/2024 at 10:47 PM, SizzleChest said:

I hope you lose your ass.

Not today Satan, not today.