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A closer look at Michael Jordan's 1988 DPOY award raises questions about its validity

n64ra

By n64ra
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aggie08

aggie08 21482

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If Karl Malone wakes up tomorrow and walks to the nearest 24 Hour Fitness and makes a layup in street clothes, they're giving the assist to John Stockton.

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d2o

d2o 1602

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3 hours ago, aggie08 said:

If Karl Malone wakes up tomorrow and walks to the nearest 24 Hour Fitness and makes a layup in street clothes, they're giving the assist to John Stockton.

Exactly.  They need to dig into Stockton's numbers next.   I would LOVE to see a home/away split on those assist numbers

2 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

Yeah and I'm starting to question Wilt's 55 rebounds in one game.

I saw someone mention his and Russell's rebound numbers too.

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Derka

Derka 6151

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people have been talking about these fudged stats for a while now, and I’ve never been able to bring myself to care at all. Are we really going to act like Michael Jordan was not one of the all-time great defensive players in NBA history because he was given an extra steal here or there? does this “news” really do anything to change your opinion on Michael Jordan or his defensive ability and prowess? for me it does not. especially considering that the genesis of all of this talk is a bunch of GenZ kids trying to paint the NBA legends from the 80s as plumbers.

Edited by definitely not derka
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n64ra

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5 hours ago, definitely not derka said:

people have been talking about these fudged stats for a while now, and I’ve never been able to bring myself to care at all. Are we really going to act like Michael Jordan was not one of the all-time great defensive players in NBA history because he was given an extra steal here or there? does this “news” really do anything to change your opinion on Michael Jordan or his defensive ability and prowess? for me it does not. especially considering that the genesis of all of this talk is a bunch of GenZ kids trying to paint the NBA legends from the 80s as plumbers.

It's not to make us thinks MJ is a bad player, but this shows it wasn't an added steal here or there. It was more than doubled from 2 legit steals to credited with 5 in just one game the authors watched. In the other 5 games they could find from that season, the box score showed 59 steals on 41 live-ball turnovers, resulting in a whopping 18 excess steals.

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Derka

Derka 6151

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2 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Jordan was a great defensive player. But he was never even the best defensive player on his own team much less in the entire league. Pippen was better and always guarded the other teams best player. 

pippen, rodman, mj, and harper all on one team in ‘96. you could rank mj 3rd or even 4th on that list without too much argument.

 

eta- it could be my romanticized memory, but i do also feel like mj had a knack for making impactful defensive plays on a level that was truly elite. scottie was a better defender, but i seem to have more memories of making big, momentum shifting chase down blocks and important steals (‘98 on malone) than guys like harper, rodman, and pippen.

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Derka

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12 minutes ago, n64ra said:

It's not to make us thinks MJ is a bad player, but this shows it wasn't an added steal here or there. It was more than doubled from 2 legit steals to credited with 5 in just one game the authors watched. In the other 5 games they could find from that season, the box score showed 59 steals on 41 live-ball turnovers, resulting in a whopping 18 excess steals.

ok yeah that’s pretty damned egregious, lol. 

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goatsaag

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6 hours ago, definitely not derka said:

people have been talking about these fudged stats for a while now, and I’ve never been able to bring myself to care at all. Are we really going to act like Michael Jordan was not one of the all-time great defensive players in NBA history because he was given an extra steal here or there? does this “news” really do anything to change your opinion on Michael Jordan or his defensive ability and prowess? for me it does not. especially considering that the genesis of all of this talk is a bunch of GenZ kids trying to paint the NBA legends from the 80s as plumbers.

This is more of a targeted thing where specifically for Jordan's defensive player of the year season, the home scorekeeper insanely padded his numbers. Every other season his home/away splits for steals and blocks are essentially the same while in that season he got twice as many steals and blocks at home as he did away.

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Pam Cummings

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11 hours ago, n64ra said:

It's not to make us thinks MJ is a bad player, but this shows it wasn't an added steal here or there. It was more than doubled from 2 legit steals to credited with 5 in just one game the authors watched. In the other 5 games they could find from that season, the box score showed 59 steals on 41 live-ball turnovers, resulting in a whopping 18 excess steals.

There's definitely a lot of times where Scottie made the defensive play and somehow magically MJ gets credited for the steal. 

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 27536

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On 6/25/2024 at 3:17 PM, definitely not derka said:

people have been talking about these fudged stats for a while now, and I’ve never been able to bring myself to care at all. Are we really going to act like Michael Jordan was not one of the all-time great defensive players in NBA history because he was given an extra steal here or there? does this “news” really do anything to change your opinion on Michael Jordan or his defensive ability and prowess? for me it does not. especially considering that the genesis of all of this talk is a bunch of GenZ kids trying to paint the NBA legends from the 80s as plumbers.

I was told by some basketball experts in the Mavs thread that steals had nothing to do with how good a defender one is so the whole premise there is irrelevant 

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Pam Cummings

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7 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I was told by some basketball experts in the Mavs thread that steals had nothing to do with how good a defender one is so the whole premise there is irrelevant 

No, you were told that cherry picking one single stat doesn't tell the whole story, and that there are plenty of meh defenders that can get steals by playing passing lanes and exposing their team defense to backdoor cuts.

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Sawbonz

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1 minute ago, Pam Cummings said:

No, you were told that cherry picking one single stat doesn't tell the whole story, and that there are plenty of meh defenders that can get steals by playing passing lanes and exposing their team defense to backdoor cuts.


No, not a single stat was offered to show Doncic was below average

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Sawbonz

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Just now, Pam Cummings said:

You guys cherry picked some stat that suggested he's like some top 10 defender. Just stop.


The argument was that Doncic was “above average”. He is top 10 in a few stats, which clearly would put him in the above average category. No one argued he was an elite defender. Just stop

 

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Pam Cummings

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5 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:


The argument was that Doncic was “above average”. He is top 10 in a few stats, which clearly would put him in the above average category. No one argued he was an elite defender. Just stop

 

Yes, you literally did. Our conclusion was that he is an average defender that will be picked on in certain matchups when teams like Boston have the personnel to do so. That was it. Then you bunch of homers wandered in and acted like we were saying the guy is a terrible player. Just keep that shit in the Mavs thread where you can all agree with each other.

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Pam Cummings

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11 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I’ve changed my mind. Most of Doncic steals were probably faked

You guys told me that your strategy on defense was to funnel everything into the bigs which is an odd strategy if you think you have above average wing defenders.

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dcar00

dcar00 14153

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On 6/25/2024 at 11:58 AM, Pam Cummings said:

Yeah and I'm starting to question Wilt's 55 rebounds in one game.

I think in those days it was probably legit.  There was no huge advantage to pumping up numbers for awards.

in specific to rebounds. shooting back then was way worse.  The box score is interesting.  celts missed 57. Warriors missed 76 shots.  Wilt missed 27 himself.  they don't split Oreb and Dreb.  my guess is it is legit but a lot of them were Oreb and some off his own miss even.  there were 133 rebound opportunities on shots and then another 29 on FT's.  Also the game was close so he probably played almost he entire game.  

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196011240PHW.html

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