The Airplane Fanatic Thread

[markstanco 12571]

Made me lol, but not because of the tragedy. Aviation loves acronyms.

[markstanco 12571]

My checkride guy died a few years ago on takeoff in a twin. I think it was a c410 or similar. The pilot survived somehow. I saw the CCTV footage from some local warehouse, man 100LL burns fast and hot.

[markstanco 12571]

Lost an engine going too slow, at too high of a weight and or with a center of gravity too far aft to control the aircraft directionally with the rudder on the remaining engine. It’s called a Vmc roll because Vmc is the minimum controllable airspeed in the angle engine scenario. 

On a situation that presents a Vmc roll in a twin....would it not be smart to stay in ground effect as long as possible and gain speed if you are on a long runway like addison?

Completely ignorant on twins, no clue. Just wondering if there is better protocol to not have an engine failure and roll.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

32 minutes ago, markstanco said:

On a situation that presents a Vmc roll in a twin....would it not be smart to stay in ground effect as long as possible and gain speed if you are on a long runway like addison?

Completely ignorant on twins, no clue. Just wondering if there is better protocol to not have an engine failure and roll.

Maybe, but now you’re invalidating all the climb gradient guarantees achieved by flying the plane at V2 on climb out as well as going against all Vmc cut training. 

Basically, you have performance guarantee of climbing above obstacles single engine in high performance twins as long as you fly V2, the engine out departure procedure, and have bothered to not overload the plane or fly it out of CG. I’d imagine a horse like a 350 can happily climb at 6-700 rpm at MTOW single engine. And Vr is right at V2. They shouldn’t have been slow enough to Vmc roll it if that’s what happened. 

Light twins are another story. Even something like a Chieftain with 350hp per side is basically taking you to the scene of the accident. In that case with nothing off the end of the runway staying in ground effect to gather speed might be a solution. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

Actually, now that I think about it, the plane is Vmc rolling because you’re out of rudder. You probably wouldn’t accelerate enough in ground effect to have enough air over the rudder before the thing rolled on you anyway. 

Sorry, it’s been a while since I’ve had to think like that. 

[DalTxHornFan 3097]

I thought that some of the cachet of the King Air's being certified as commuters was their autofeather system that is in place for engine losses at takeoffs and landings.  Did this feature malfunction or is this feature just not enough to overcome a plane that was just too slow, too heavy or out of balance at the time of engine loss?  

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

It could have failed. Usually the feathering system is tied to engine oil pressure countering a spring. Loss of engine oil pressure leads to the spring feathering the propeller. It’s why every PT6 driven prop feathers on shutdown because there are no start locks to maintain pitch. It’s a pretty simple and robust system. 

[BTW 370]

Man, my heart goes out to the families of those aboard.

I only have a few hours in a kingair (it was a 200 not a 350) but I remember us having to "Arm" the auto-feather system.  Maybe it wasn't armed, or didn't get tested pref-light?

PS, be fore you ask how I only have a few king air hours, I'm not qualified to fly one, but was right seat with a guy who typically flies single pilot.

[markstanco 12571]

Not much on LiveATC.com  

https://forums.liveatc.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15438.0;attach=10429

 

[RPM 26316]

13 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

I thought that some of the cachet of the King Air's being certified as commuters was their autofeather system that is in place for engine losses at takeoffs and landings.  Did this feature malfunction or is this feature just not enough to overcome a plane that was just too slow, too heavy or out of balance at the time of engine loss?  

Not a pilot, but from what I understand feathering/not feathering the dead engine wouldn't be as much of a problem as the single engine torque wanting to roll the aircraft and not enough speed/alt to counter with controls. Do we know what their TOW was?

[DalTxHornFan 3097]

1 hour ago, RPM said:

Not a pilot, but from what I understand feathering/not feathering the dead engine wouldn't be as much of a problem as the single engine torque wanting to roll the aircraft and not enough speed/alt to counter with controls. Do we know what their TOW was?

Useful load of that model is around 5,100 lbs.  I'm sure that they will be looking at that issue given the 8 adults and 2 older teens on board and the flight destination. 

Also, as I understand it, the autofeather feature also has a rudder boost that kicks in to counter the single engine torque mentioned in your post.  But, the plane's gotta have some speed for the rudder to have much effect.  Tragic situation no matter what ended up going wrong.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, RPM said:

Not a pilot, but from what I understand feathering/not feathering the dead engine wouldn't be as much of a problem as the single engine torque wanting to roll the aircraft and not enough speed/alt to counter with controls. Do we know what their TOW was?

Feathering is still a big deal. An unfeathered propeller on a dead engine has the aerodynamic drag effect of a solid disk the diameter of the prop acting as an airbrake. 

[RPM 26316]

I get that Bobby. But wouldn't the torque be a bigger issue than the drag? Combined it's a cluster.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

46 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Useful load of that model is around 5,100 lbs.  I'm sure that they will be looking at that issue given the 8 adults and 2 older teens on board and the flight destination. 

Also, as I understand it, the autofeather feature also has a rudder boost that kicks in to counter the single engine torque mentioned in your post.  But, the plane's gotta have some speed for the rudder to have much effect.  Tragic situation no matter what ended up going wrong.

Average plane weighs around 10k lbs. It probably needed 2200lbs of fuel as a guess. And probably had 1800lbs of  people and bags. Maybe more.  It may not have been at MTOW, but it was in the ballpark. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

2 minutes ago, RPM said:

I get that Bobby. But wouldn't the torque be a bigger issue than the drag? Combined it's a cluster.

A little bit of both. Too slow, too heavy and or too aft loaded and there’s not enough rudder to counteract the asymmetric thrust and torque. But a 9 ft diameter speed brake providing asymmetric drag that adds to the asymmetric thrust and torque while inhibiting acceleration is obviously doing no one any favors. 

I have 600 hours of King Air time, and remember having an auto feather system, but can’t remember a thing about it. It could be as simple as not arming the system. 

[DalTxHornFan 3097]

8 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

A little bit of both. Too slow, too heavy and or too aft loaded and there’s not enough rudder to counteract the asymmetric thrust and torque. But a 9 ft diameter speed brake providing asymmetric drag that adds to the asymmetric thrust and torque while inhibiting acceleration is obviously doing no one any favors. 

I have 600 hours of King Air time, and remember having an auto feather system, but can’t remember a thing about it. It could be as simple as not arming the system. 

Thanks, Bobby.  I've only been a pax on some King Air charters, but one pilot in particular explained to me why they were doing a big engine run-up to test the system.  Said that it was a daily requirement.

[Lat22 4010]

Listen to Citation 7CD here. Jesus Christ. 

 

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=!AIyTIcZHW4B61YY&cid=34AD34E93D66E069&id=34AD34E93D66E069!47042&parId=34AD34E93D66E069!214&o=OneUp

[DaysOff 7947]

I flew the Beech 1900 for 3 years. My only comment is RIP and the plane was a piece of shit designed to fly 30 hours a month not 300 for the airlines.

[DCA_HORN 725]

7 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

I flew the Beech 1900 for 3 years. My only comment is RIP and the plane was a piece of shit designed to fly 30 hours a month not 300 for the airlines.

Obviously more use means more maintenance but like most machines isn't it better to use them regularly than sparingly?

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

3 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Thanks, Bobby.  I've only been a pax on some King Air charters, but one pilot in particular explained to me why they were doing a big engine run-up to test the system.  Said that it was a daily requirement.

I even remember doing the run ups daily, and we did a big electrical check weekly. But I can’t for the life of me remember the system other than basic constant speed prop theory. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, DCA_HORN said:

Obviously more use means more maintenance but like most machines isn't it better to use them regularly than sparingly?

It’s was the same when I flew private jets. They were designed to fly 3-400 hours a year and we were running 1200+. They broke a lot. And yes, letting them sit and do nothing often just as bad. 

[Upgrayedd 5810]

1 hour ago, DCA_HORN said:

Obviously more use means more maintenance but like most machines isn't it better to use them regularly than sparingly?

There's a mom/wife/girlfriend joke in there somewhere.

[DalTxHornFan 3097]

2 hours ago, Lat22 said:

Listen to Citation 7CD here. Jesus Christ. 

 

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=!AIyTIcZHW4B61YY&cid=34AD34E93D66E069&id=34AD34E93D66E069!47042&parId=34AD34E93D66E069!214&o=OneUp

That's one cold bitch.

[Assman 1830]

I haven't flown a PT-6 powered plane in over half a decade, but I seem to remember there being a minimum time required for the prop to completely feather if you lose an engine.  10 seconds maybe? 

[LonghornD 49]

On 6/22/2019 at 5:48 PM, Hagbard Celine said:

Dad's first jet training was in the T-37 at Vance.  Then moved up and first soloed in the T-38.  I was born on Vance.

Then moved to Sheppard when i was 6 months old and he taught NATO guys how to drive for the next 3 years before joining Delta.

Lucky you. Your dad got to teach NATO guys. My dad got stuck teaching Iranian pilots how to fly the F-4 in the 70s.

[Gil Bang 25912]

https://kotaku.com/enormous-flight-simulator-installed-in-tokyo-hotel-1836238095?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

[Armybrat 40822]

Too bad it’s not a 737 Max. Instead of a wake up call in the morning the bed would just dump the guest out on the floor.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Armybrat

[The People’s Elbow 707]

MD-88 engine at FL300

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by The People’s Elbow

[Armybrat 40822]

I’d like to see what Logan’s hairdo looked like while he was making that video.

[markstanco 12571]

Went to Mena yesterday to pick up the engine for our club's C182. Here is what $34,000 looks like!

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

11 hours ago, The People’s Elbow said:

MD-88 engine at FL300

 

Those 88’s are probably more bondo and speed tape than rivets and aluminum these days. 

[Texas St. Armadillos 1381]

After having difficulty getting on the schedule w my CFI, I laid out my goals and expectations a little more clearly to him.  Long story short, I'll be back in the air Sunday,  Monday,  Wednesday,  and Thursday.

[markstanco 12571]

On 7/13/2019 at 6:34 AM, Texas St. Armadillos said:

After having difficulty getting on the schedule w my CFI, I laid out my goals and expectations a little more clearly to him.  Long story short, I'll be back in the air Sunday,  Monday,  Wednesday,  and Thursday.

How many hours do you have currently?

[Your Mom 4805]

Frequency of flights is the best thing you can do to learn faster and save money.  I was a broke college student when I was working on my ratings and sometimes was lucky to fly once a week.  Twice was a good week.  You spend so much time relearning what you did the time before when you don't fly often enough.  3-4 times a week seems like the perfect frequency to retain at a high rate and still avoid burnout.  

[DaysOff 7947]

I agree. Anything more than 4 a week and it's harder to lay down learning. You'll get more out of using off days to fly the chair. How much learning is going on when that CFI is talking in the headset and you're trying to fly. I'll answer that. Almost none.

[Texas St. Armadillos 1381]

I had only gotten in 5 lessons before the break.  About 6 hours.  Feels great to get back in.  Just the past 2 days we've  done power on and off stalls, turning stalls, steep turns, forward slips, pattern work and touch and gos.   So happy to have reestablished my expectations and seeing the new scheduling. 

[Homercles 10205]

Uhhh

 

 

[Telegraph_it 3357]

On 7/1/2019 at 5:12 PM, Bobby_Batronic said:

A little bit of both. Too slow, too heavy and or too aft loaded and there’s not enough rudder to counteract the asymmetric thrust and torque. But a 9 ft diameter speed brake providing asymmetric drag that adds to the asymmetric thrust and torque while inhibiting acceleration is obviously doing no one any favors. 

I have 600 hours of King Air time, and remember having an auto feather system, but can’t remember a thing about it. It could be as simple as not arming the system. 

I just flew right in a King Air 350 a couple weeks ago. Simply arm the auto feather in the run up checklist. You can also test the system on run up.

I think I have been in a 350 that did not have auto feather feature installed. 

This accident is scary. Every time I take off in the Baron there is that few second window where I think to myself: this would be a shitty time for an engine to go. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

Yeah, but what if the autofeather system doesn’t work properly?  It never failed it’s check during my King Air time, but you never know when those Swiss cheese holes line up just right. 

Seems like it would activate with 4-600 lbs of tq difference between the motors and not allow the remaining engine to feather.

At least you know the 350 will climb if you pop a motor and everything else works. I have about 8-1000 hours in a PA31, and it would only take you to the scene of the crash in a single engine scenario with any kind of load. 

[Chad Fuck 17659]

Any of you jockeys headed to OSH this year?

I have to miss it but, as always, there’s going to be cool stuff.

I’m particularly disappointed not to get to see the XP-82 fly after its recent resto.

[The People’s Elbow 707]

Anyone familiar with this? It’s first I’d heard of the concept.

Our resident commercial drivers have any thoughts? 

https://www.fastcompany.com/90377949/airlines-are-finally-fixing-the-middle-seat

 

[markstanco 12571]

6 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

Any of you jockeys headed to OSH this year?

I have to miss it but, as always, there’s going to be cool stuff.

I’m particularly disappointed not to get to see the XP-82 fly after its recent resto.

How does the ATC handle all the traffic during that?  Do they treat it like Bravo?  I read where it is an honor to be invited as an ATC to work it. 

[Chad Fuck 17659]

37 minutes ago, markstanco said:

How does the ATC handle all the traffic during that?  Do they treat it like Bravo?  I read where it is an honor to be invited as an ATC to work it. 

Just google that shit.  There are all sorts of write ups and videos that do way better justice than I could.  It's an amazing dance to see though.  

[Chad Fuck 17659]

48 minutes ago, markstanco said:

How does the ATC handle all the traffic during that?  Do they treat it like Bravo?  I read where it is an honor to be invited as an ATC to work it. 

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-airventure-news-and-multimedia/eaa-airventure-news/eaa-airventure-oshkosh/07-25-2018-behind-the-scenes-with-oshkosh-air-traffic-control

 

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-fly-in-flying-to-oshkosh

 

[Cosimo de' Medici 121]

56 minutes ago, markstanco said:

How does the ATC handle all the traffic during that?  Do they treat it like Bravo?  I read where it is an honor to be invited as an ATC to work 

Rock your wings

Edited July 19, 2019 by Cosimo de' Medici

[BearSchlong 8083]

wow.  Impressive.

[Chad Fuck 17659]

 

[Anton Chigurh 3319]

Any of you jockeys headed to OSH this year?

I have to miss it but, as always, there’s going to be cool stuff.

I’m particularly disappointed not to get to see the XP-82 fly after its recent resto.

I thought about it, but not this year. I really should’ve though since I have plenty of PTO left for the year and basically nothing planned.

[RPM 26316]

 

[markstanco 12571]

Live view of Oshkkosh