The Airplane Fanatic Thread

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

6 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

It's time to stop flying these war birds so they're around for future generations.

I think that’s the conundrum. They keep flying them to give rides to raise money so that they will be around for future generations. 

[Braff Zacklin 13617]

6 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I think that’s the conundrum. They keep flying them to give rides to raise money so that they will be around can keep flying them for future generations. 

FIFY.

Easiest way to preserve any aircraft is to not fly it.

[Chad Fuck 17684]

19 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

It's time to stop flying these war birds so they're around for future generations.

Disagree.  Name an example of a warbird flying today that doesn't have multiple museum examples.

If you want an example of a well preserved B-17, just look on the last page.  

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Chad Fuck

[DaysOff 7951]

I left out the dangerous part. Sketchy engineering and handling by today's standards, volunteers for maintenance, little training, probably poor crm, little recency of experience (how often can you get stick time). I'm just comparing it to the part 121 world, so that's not totally fair. But, no thanks for me.

[Loco 3752]

58 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Terrible.  Wings of Victory Tour comes to Dallas every year, and every year Chad Jr. and I crawl through her.   

B-17 will likely be rebuilt (like they're doing with Liberty Belle that all but burned up a few years ago).  But what a sad loss of life.  This is a tragedy.

Speaking of rebuilt B-17s

 

[Chad Fuck 17684]

11 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

I left out the dangerous part. Sketchy engineering and handling by today's standards, volunteers for maintenance, little training, probably poor crm, little recency of experience (how often can you get stick time). I'm just comparing it to the part 121 world, so that's not totally fair. But, no thanks for me.

Actually, the Collings Foundation, who owns and flew this one, is pretty much the antithesis of everything you've stated.  The have a very demanding maintenance schedule, etc.  They are the counter to the "get 'er rollin' and we'll figur it out" kind of war birding that went on in the 60s and 70s.  

With the money involved here, the main warbird operators can't get insurance of they aren't running well documented programs.  Moreover, the owners don't want to.  Sometimes bad things happen.  We'll see how it goes.

Apples and oranges comparison to 121 world though.  

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Braff Zacklin said:

FIFY.

Easiest way to preserve any aircraft is to not fly it.

Not to preserve it in flying condition it isn’t. 

There’s not a shortage of B17’s sitting around to be looked at. Seeing them fly. That’s a different matter. 

[Braff Zacklin 13617]

5 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Not to preserve it in flying condition it isn’t. 

There’s not a shortage of B17’s sitting around to be looked at. Seeing them fly. That’s a different matter. 

There's also no shortage of videos of B-17s in flight.

 "Flying condition" doesn't seem to be the argument DaysOff was making. It wasn't mentioned in your response to him, either.

I don't have a strong opinion on this either way. If you want to pay to go up in an old warbird, great. I'm merely noting that if one's true goal is preservation, then parking it is the only long-term effective solution.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

I wouldn’t pay a nickel to go up in one. I get enough flying in as it is, but a video hardly suffices for or replaces seeing one actually fly.

Seeing a repainted husk on a pedestal or in a museum just isn’t the same. 

[Chad Fuck 17684]

11 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I wouldn’t pay a nickel to go up in one. I get enough flying in as it is, but a video hardly suffices for or replaces seeing one actually fly.

Seeing a repainted husk on a pedestal or in a museum just isn’t the same. 

This is the crux of the argument for flying them.

There are plenty of exemplar copies of B-17s (and P-51s and Corsairs, etc., etc.) in museums.

There's nothing that brings home what those videos actually mean until you've heard a B-17 belch a little smoke and take flight.  It really does spark the imagination in a way that no video could ever do.  The smell, the sound, the sight - these things have value.

Let alone that these are private entities, with private property, acting in a legal way.  

[Braff Zacklin 13617]

7 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I wouldn’t pay a nickel to go up in one. I get enough flying in as it is, but a video hardly suffices for or replaces seeing one actually fly.

Seeing a repainted husk on a pedestal or in a museum just isn’t the same. 

Understood. I'm not arguing it's the same.

Sure, it'd have been awesome to see Nine-O-Nine in person, climb around inside her (phrasing!), hear her run up those four Cyclones, and maybe even fly in her ... but now she's gone forever and several people are dead. Was it worth it so people could experience those things instead of merely staring at her inside a hangar?

I genuinely cannot answer that.

[Chad Fuck 17684]

First, she's not gone forever.  I think you'll see her rebuilt.  There's already the Liberty Belle example that burnt in a field after a successful emergency landing.  They're rebuilding her.

Second, if you ask "was this flight worth it" any time someone is involved in a fatal accident, the answer will always be "no."  Does that mean we don't fly?  What about driving in cars after a car death?  It's all about managing risk.  There's nothing to show that this plane had any increased risk over other planes.  This particular plane had flown many hours, with many passengers, for many decades, safely.  Today was a horrible day.  But the answer isn't "ground all warbirds."  With respect to DaysOff's argument above re mx, there are many of these planes that are better maintained than the average GA bird.    

 

[Braff Zacklin 13617]

3 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

First, she's not gone forever.  I think you'll see her rebuilt.  There's already the Liberty Belle example that burnt in a field after a successful emergency landing.  They're rebuilding her.

That plane is gone, dude. Time, three nuclear blasts, and an overrun incident in 1987 took their toll, but my understanding is most of what was there was the original aircraft.

Whatever follows, the next Nine-O-Nine will only be sharing a name and some parts salvaged from today's tragedy. To contend otherwise would be almost as delusional and illogical as this:

Quote

Second, if you ask "was this flight worth it" any time someone is involved in a fatal accident, the answer will always be "no."  Does that mean we don't fly?  What about driving in cars after a car death?

If a joyride in a vintage warbird is as critical to you as day-to-day commutes in an automobile, then we are definitely are not going to find common ground here.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

I’d expound upon that a bit. Should we keep all classic cars off the road after there’s a crash that kills the occupants? Those happen all the time. 

I can see an old Lightening, Jug or Mustang at any time outside of a 94th Aero Squadron restaurant let alone a museum. To see one in motion?  Completely different.

There’s a reason that UP spends considerable money restoring and operating 844, their Challenger or 4014. Living history matters. It teaches and inspires. And sometimes it ends in tragedy. Such is life. 

[Chad Fuck 17684]

This is being rebuilt.  Right now.  The fact is, there is a market for flying warbirds that will incentivize someone to rebuild this B-17, even if the only thing left was a data plate.  

You can continue with your Washignton's Axe/Ship of Theseus argument, but that's a different issue entirely.  

Bobby said it better than I.  

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

I don’t really care how much is original. I’d love to see Glacier Girl one day. 

[Braff Zacklin 13617]

4 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I’d expound upon that a bit. Should we keep all classic cars off the road after there’s a crash that kills the occupants? Those happen all the time. 

I can see an old Lightening, Jug or Mustang at any time outside of a 94th Aero Squadron restaurant let alone a museum. To see one in motion?  Completely different.

There’s a reason that UP spends considerable money restoring and operating 844, their Challenger or 4014. Living history matters. It teaches and inspires. And sometimes it ends in tragedy. Such is life. 

You know how you felt in the 737-MAX thread when guys would keep responding to you, attributing comments/opinions to you that you didn't make? This is what you and Chad are doing.

I'm not advocating for grounding of all warbirds. Or vintage anything. If people want to invest millions in restoring an old war bird, great. If they want to build a new one from scratch or create one out of parts from thousands of wrecks, fine by me. And if people want to pay to be a passenger in one, that's on them.

I'm merely contending that, if preservation is your goal, then the only effective, long-term solution is to park them somewhere, preferably out of the elements in a climate-controlled building.

That is a cold, colorless fact.

I'm not arguing that seeing a plane in a museum is equally visceral and enjoyable as climbing around in one or flying in one. Again, I'm just pointing out that the one in a museum will likely be there a lot longer.

It is such a simple, obvious fact that your and Chad's desire to create an argument is difficult to understand aside from you both seem to be very emotionally invested.

[Anton Chigurh 3319]

I can smell it now.

Here’s Texas Raiders from last October, so we can have some good B-17 love.


https://streamable.com/5w9ch

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

59 minutes ago, Braff Zacklin said:

You know how you felt in the 737-MAX thread when guys would keep responding to you, attributing comments/opinions to you that you didn't make? This is what you and Chad are doing.

I'm not advocating for grounding of all warbirds. Or vintage anything. If people want to invest millions in restoring an old war bird, great. If they want to build a new one from scratch or create one out of parts from thousands of wrecks, fine by me. And if people want to pay to be a passenger in one, that's on them.

I'm merely contending that, if preservation is your goal, then the only effective, long-term solution is to park them somewhere, preferably out of the elements in a climate-controlled building.

That is a cold, colorless fact.

I'm not arguing that seeing a plane in a museum is equally visceral and enjoyable as climbing around in one or flying in one. Again, I'm just pointing out that the one in a museum will likely be there a lot longer.

It is such a simple, obvious fact that your and Chad's desire to create an argument is difficult to understand aside from you both seem to be very emotionally invested.

I understand your point fine. My counterpoint to that was and is that there are many examples non flying warbirds all over this nation. We don’t need to preserve the flyable ones so that there will be some left for future generations to enjoy on static display. There are tons of them, for example, sitting on poles outside of the restaurant chain I mentioned above.

If a B17 were something like a space shuttle or SR-71 where very limited examples were ever produced and fewer still yet exist then I would agree with the contention that we should park and preserve them. But that’s simply not the case. 

They are old machines, but are generally lovingly and painstakingly cared for. Sometimes they crash. Sometimes people are killed. That’s terrible, but it would be a disservice to future generations to ground them. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

37 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

I can smell it now.

Here’s Texas Raiders from last October, so we can have some good B-17 love.


https://streamable.com/5w9ch

Texas Raiders in the Don’t Mess With Texas anti littering campaign was pure genius. 

 

[Armybrat 40850]

2 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

I don’t really care how much is original. I’d love to see Glacier Girl one day. 

I hear there are actually visible traces of the original wood aboard the USS Constitution. 😀

[Handcruser 2805]

People saying we need to stop flying the old warbirds are dumb. Real, real, real, real dumb.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Armybrat said:

I hear there are actually visible traces of the original wood aboard the USS Constitution. 😀

I know you were in the Continental Army at the time, but you might be able to verify. 😁

Also, that might be relevant if Old Ironsides was sunk, then salvaged from the Atlantic and put back into sailing shape. 

[markstanco 12577]

As a lowly PPL guy with no aspirations of going any farther than instrument, can somebody explain the part 121 and what the b-17 have in common? Not well read on the CFRs I have no exposure to.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

2 hours ago, markstanco said:

As a lowly PPL guy with no aspirations of going any farther than instrument, can somebody explain the part 121 and what the b-17 have in common? Not well read on the CFRs I have no exposure to.

The implication is regular rigorous, standardized training versus guys getting together and flying their favorite warbird when they have some time off and their number is called to get some seat time. 

A guy worked with at my prior stop was one of the ones who flew FiFi the B-29 from time to time. Now he was a seasoned expert on the CL604 and a well respected pilot. But you have to ask how much training and experience was he getting on the Superfort? It’s probably a valid concern. 

I flew three aircraft simultaneously in my freight days in the PA31, Be99 and SA227. I mostly flew the 227, and hated the 2-3 times a year where I’d get thrown into one of the other planes because I just wasn’t nearly as sharp in them. 

[Chad Fuck 17684]

16 hours ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Texas Raiders in the Don’t Mess With Texas anti littering campaign was pure genius. 

 

Looks like maybe Sentimental Journey, but that's beside the point:  One of the coolest ads ever. 

 

[Lat22 4015]

There has to be video of this crash. Anytime a B17 is operating, somebody is taking video. 

[Chad Fuck 17684]

1 hour ago, Lat22 said:

There has to be video of this crash. Anytime a B17 is operating, somebody is taking video. 

There is.  When you're paying $450 or more a seat to take a ride, you have someone film it.  I'm sure it's all being reviewed right now.

[Chad Fuck 17684]

So this whole B-17 thing, re maintenance/crew training etc.  Got me thinking.  This is the last fatal B-17 crash I could find:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/5344

12 July 73 lost firefighting 

 

[Braff Zacklin 13617]

Since we were discussing the visceral advantage to flying warbirds, this long-time favorite seemed topical:

Dunno what I respect more--Hanna's skill or the film crew's courage.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

10 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

Looks like maybe Sentimental Journey, but that's beside the point:  One of the coolest ads ever. 

 

Good catch. I made an assumption based on the nature of the advert and the B-17 appearing to be a G model. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Braff Zacklin said:

Since we were discussing the visceral advantage to flying warbirds, this long-time favorite seemed topical:

Dunno what I respect more--Hanna's skill or the film crew's courage.

They have one of those down at King Ranch. Looked like they were refurbing it when I saw it. 

I asked if that place, it’s a private airport, was where folks could pay to fly a warbird. The answer was “ No. These are ours.”  

[Prepuce of Doom 21079]

I'm not a pilot so forgive me if this is a stupid question, but what the fuck is this guy doing? 

I'd assume some sort of training or practice, but so close to ORD (and above densely populated areas, to some extent) seems like a strange place to be aimlessly doing laps. 

 

[mightyfine 3]

Possibly passes while towing a banner? Didn't look at what the plane is

[Your Mom 4806]

Maybe banner towing?  Seems high for that though.  They usually stay around 1000' agl.  Sometimes FAA flies odd paths back and forth across a final to certifiy a localizer or something.  

[Cosimo de' Medici 121]

 Not at 152kts. Survey of some sorts, possibly how many gang kills they can log.

Edited October 5, 2019 by Cosimo de' Medici

[Prepuce of Doom 21079]

Wrong part of the city. 

[Your Mom 4806]

I had some spare time..  N977GV is a Tecnam P2006T, a piston twin.  It's owned by GV Air Inc. who does aerial imaging for cable companies.  They've made a similar flight back and forth across the finals for the 27s at O'Hare several different days recently.  Before that they were back and forth on the south side of O'Hare.  

So clearly it's terrorists or aliens.  

[Prepuce of Doom 21079]

Cool - thanks! 

[Loco 3752]

Forgive the shirt...  it's his thing.

 

[Homercles 10206]

Anyone else follow CitationMax on YouTube? Son of some bigwig clothing/style family, and pitched to his family to fly themselves as a more efficient way to help the business/charities (like Premier1Driver does).

Started in a Cirrus SR, then a Vision single engine VLJ and now flies an M2 citation. Dude has been living his best life...working from PPL through IFR and then turbine...and fully seems like a normal dude.

Him, P1D and the Corporate Pilot Life guys (especially tech Tuesday videos) are my jam.

[Southland 35]

15 hours ago, Homercles said:

Anyone else follow CitationMax on YouTube? Son of some bigwig clothing/style family, and pitched to his family to fly themselves as a more efficient way to help the business/charities (like Premier1Driver does).

Started in a Cirrus SR, then a Vision single engine VLJ and now flies an M2 citation. Dude has been living his best life...working from PPL through IFR and then turbine...and fully seems like a normal dude.
 

 

Him, P1D and the Corporate Pilot Life guys (especially tech Tuesday videos) are my jam.

Yep, I watch his videos on occasion, along with the others you listed. The others I have in my rotation are Niko's Wings, Trent Palmer, and Aviation101 (lives in Austin with plane hangared in San Marcos).

[Lat22 4015]

No love for Steveo1Kenevo?

[markstanco 12577]

A person in our club ran over a ladder at the fuel pump yesterday in the 172. Not sure why the ladder was in front of the prop, and cant for the life of me figure out why.

Anyhow, tear down is $8k to send the crank off for inspection and a new prop is 4400 new. Looking for a reman one now.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

That sucks. Someone flew through some kind of power line or cable wire in the canyons around Borger and the spinner looked like a barber shop pole. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[Homercles 10206]

No love for Steveo1Kenevo?

Oh good call my bad. Steveo is great to listen to with his upbeat tone and the TBM is one unique machine. He actually greased the landing better than Greg in N390GM.

Also can’t forget FlightChops. He seems to approach flying like I did riding motorcycles or diving, in that he enjoys the process of always learning. His trips with Osama are always some of my favorites, that guy is wired just the right kind of tight and is a remarkable success story.

I tell my folks that if I’d had wiki and YouTube as a kid, I’d have never left the house. I was lucky to live on usaf bases growing up so the flightline was always a bike ride away.

[Southland 35]

12 hours ago, Homercles said:

Also can’t forget FlightChops. He seems to approach flying like I did riding motorcycles or diving, in that he enjoys the process of always learning. His trips with Osama are always some of my favorites, that guy is wired just the right kind of tight and is a remarkable success story.

Osama wins for best tail number on his Phenom 300. CF-WTF

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Southland said:

Osama wins for best tail number on his Phenom 300. CF-WTF

We had a contract with Steve Carell at my last job. His contract name was TWSS. 

Thats What She Said.

[davidg 4038]

On 10/8/2019 at 10:04 PM, Lat22 said:

No love for Gyrocopter Girl?

fixed it for tites

[markstanco 12577]

It doesnt look like it is posted, but Mike Patey's Draco crashed a few weeks ago.

The legendary plane:

His follow up video the same day as the crash: