The Airplane Fanatic Thread

Armybrat · February 22, 2021

18 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

The fire is supposed to stay on the inside.

Maybe this guy forgot this part of his maintenance schedule?

markstanco · February 23, 2021

Helped off load some water today from a ch47. Got dang the size of the roters. Also, it does a great job at displacing air.

markstanco · February 23, 2021

The first pic I just noticed something. Thank goodness for wheel chocks. That thing would have been rolling all over the place.

Brew · February 23, 2021

For those that have small plane backgrounds, what do I need to consider when comparing a Baron, a TBM 700/850, and then moving up to a CJ1 maybe a CJ2. I know the basics like from the Baron to the CJ operating costs are about double, travel time is half with the TBM in the middle. The CJ is going to be more comfortable and safer. However, I’m looking at average trips in the 400 mile range or less for 1-2 people. If we had the range/space, we would use it occasionally but it may also become cost prohibitive. I would have 1 partner on the first 2 and 2 on the CJ so entry costs isn’t significantly different.

Last time we met with the management guys and the other partner we pretty well eliminated the Baron, so what’s the break point in trip types where the CJ is a no brainer or is it strictly just justifying the additional dollars for the safety/speed factor? I know zero about private plane types, but I do work for a lot of guys with them so I understand the cost factor well.

Handcruser · February 23, 2021

For those that have small plane backgrounds, what do I need to consider when comparing a Baron, a TBM 700/850, and then moving up to a CJ1 maybe a CJ2. I know the basics like from the Baron to the CJ operating costs are about double, travel time is half with the TBM in the middle. The CJ is going to be more comfortable and safer. However, I’m looking at average trips in the 400 mile range or less for 1-2 people. If we had the range/space, we would use it occasionally but it may also become cost prohibitive. I would have 1 partner on the first 2 and 2 on the CJ so entry costs isn’t significantly different.
Last time we met with the management guys and the other partner we pretty well eliminated the Baron, so what’s the break point in trip types where the CJ is a no brainer or is it strictly just justifying the additional dollars for the safety/speed factor? I know zero about private plane types, but I do work for a lot of guys with them so I understand the cost factor well.

So, is this a business purchase?
Where will it be based?
Do you know the partners already?
Who’s flying?
You going to dump this In a charter pool?

I have so many questions.

Brew · February 23, 2021

Business purchase.

I’m in a mid sized city 1.5 hours from two major airports. We have a regional airport where the plane would be hangered about 10 minutes from my house/office.

Yes on partners, they are both clients that have been in plane partnerships before. One is in 3-4 right now.

Management company has 6 pilots on staff. For the CJ we would pay them a certain amount each month to manage the plane and a daily rate for the pilot.

It will not be in a charter pool, we will be the only users.

Handcruser · February 23, 2021

Business purchase.
I’m in a mid sized city 1.5 hours from two major airports. We have a regional airport where the plane would be hangered about 10 minutes from my house/office.
Yes on partners, they are both clients that have been in plane partnerships before. One is in 3-4 right now.
Management company has 6 pilots on staff. For the CJ we would pay them a certain amount each month to manage the plane and a daily rate for the pilot.
It will not be in a charter pool, we will be the only users.

I’d rather have 2 engines. But that TBM will do everything yours either described you needed done.

And 1 partner is prob better than 2.

If you’re dealing with mountains or water, 2 engines for sure.

No Phenom love here?

Brew · February 23, 2021

No real mountains or water, mainly flying around the South. I have offices spread around a 5 hour driving window from my main office and clients all over the country. However, with international airports nearby anything outside of the office range will probably be commercial. I don’t see me making a 700 mile flight to South Florida because of the cost and the fact that I have to send it back while I’m down there.

Management company already has the brands mentioned under management, so it cuts our management fee significantly because they don’t have extra training time, research time on issues, etc. The difference between a CJ1 and something else in that class was pretty significant. We also discussed Meridians but the TBM was better from a management standpoint.

Handcruser · February 23, 2021

Do you want to cruise 100 kts faster while spending ~$400 extra per hour to do it?

Does the safety of the two engines mean anything in your calculus?

Both planes will handle your mission just fine. But if there is an annual budget in your head, perhaps the lower cost TBM will increase utilization outside of your original mission requirements. Meaning: those trips to Florida 3-4 times per year can now be done privately.

You can fly the TBM more. That may or may not be important to you.

Brew · February 23, 2021

Thanks for the replies. I’m meeting with the other main partner and the management company today so it helps. The extra cost is somewhat offset by the shorter flight times, but the calculus of 1 versus 2 engines has definitely been in the discussion. We had pulled the trigger on a plane 3 years ago and right at the same time we had a guy we know and his family die in a small plane crash, the partner on this plane went down in a field due to catastrophic engine failure, and another client went off a runway and totaled his plane all in a couple of weeks time. We backed out really because our wives just got real uncomfortable with it.

With the management program and the engine programs that we would be part of now, the concern is less but the safety factor also is still there. I’m a fairly young guy with two teenage kids, so upping my risk factor substantially to save a few dollars isn’t that important. However, everything I’ve seen on the TBM is that it is about as safe as you can get for a single engine.

I think the TBM will serve my needs, but may limit the number of people I fly and where I fly. I’m not sure about sitting in a tight 4 seater for a 700 mile flight. That’s probably more than I’m going to be interested in doing, but they may still be the case with the CJ1.

Handcruser · February 23, 2021

Thanks for the replies. I’m meeting with the other main partner and the management company today so it helps. The extra cost is somewhat offset by the shorter flight times, but the calculus of 1 versus 2 engines has definitely been in the discussion. We had pulled the trigger on a plane 3 years ago and right at the same time we had a guy we know and his family die in a small plane crash, the partner on this plane went down in a field due to catastrophic engine failure, and another client went off a runway and totaled his plane all in a couple of weeks time. We backed out really because our wives just got real uncomfortable with it.
With the management program and the engine programs that we would be part of now, the concern is less but the safety factor also is still there. I’m a fairly young guy with two teenage kids, so upping my risk factor substantially to save a few dollars isn’t that important. However, everything I’ve seen on the TBM is that it is about as safe as you can get for a single engine.
I think the TBM will serve my needs, but may limit the number of people I fly and where I fly. I’m not sure about sitting in a tight 4 seater for a 700 mile flight. That’s probably more than I’m going to be interested in doing, but they may still be the case with the CJ1.

Why no king air in this discussion?

Homercles · February 23, 2021

PM Stevo1Kinevo on YouTube for the TBM (semi-serious).

Brew · February 23, 2021

31 minutes ago, Handcruser said:

Why no king air in this discussion?

Don’t know, maybe because of planes under management and cross training with the management company. The CJ1 is also a 5 year currently managed plane that has been completely updated that we would be buying because that owner is moving up to a Lear.

Texas St. Armadillos · February 23, 2021

26 minutes ago, Homercles said:

PM Stevo1Kinevo on YouTube for the TBM (semi-serious).

He does pull some hot ass to join him on his flights. Selling the lifestyle.

Handcruser · February 23, 2021

Don’t know, maybe because of planes under management and cross training with the management company. The CJ1 is also a 5 year currently managed plane that has been completely updated that we would be buying because that owner is moving up to a Lear.

Ahhh. That makes sense.

Lat22 · February 24, 2021

11 hours ago, Homercles said:

PM Stevo1Kinevo on YouTube for the TBM (semi-serious).

I thought I was the only dork that watched him.

Brew · February 24, 2021

On 2/23/2021 at 2:30 PM, Handcruser said:

Ahhh. That makes sense.

Think we’re going to start with the Baron after a lot of back and forth. The operating costs on the CJ don’t make sense with the distances we’ll be flying. We’ll apparently have access to a CJ and a Lear through the management company when we need more distance at an hourly rate. The Baron has a brand new interior, new paint, upgraded electronics, etc. and my half isn’t too bad. The guy that runs the management company would prefer it over the single engine setups with us having some trips that may run in the dark.

Handcruser · February 25, 2021

Think we’re going to start with the Baron after a lot of back and forth. The operating costs on the CJ don’t make sense with the distances we’ll be flying. We’ll apparently have access to a CJ and a Lear through the management company when we need more distance at an hourly rate. The Baron has a brand new interior, new paint, upgraded electronics, etc. and my half isn’t too bad. The guy that runs the management company would prefer it over the single engine setups with us having some trips that may run in the dark.

Barons are great. Congrats man.

Telegraph_it · February 25, 2021

3 hours ago, Brew said:

Think we’re going to start with the Baron after a lot of back and forth. The operating costs on the CJ don’t make sense with the distances we’ll be flying. We’ll apparently have access to a CJ and a Lear through the management company when we need more distance at an hourly rate. The Baron has a brand new interior, new paint, upgraded electronics, etc. and my half isn’t too bad. The guy that runs the management company would prefer it over the single engine setups with us having some trips that may run in the dark.

Barons are an awesome plane. My son recommends 100%.

Run those two engines LOP and you can get 24 to 28 GPH. Pretty efficient!

Edited February 25, 2021 by Telegraph_it

Bobby_Batronic · February 25, 2021

There’s a 747-8 outfitted as a business jet for sale on the Sheltair ramp in Lauderdale if anyone has a bit of extra folding money laying about.

Chewbacca · February 25, 2021

For those that have small plane backgrounds, what do I need to consider when comparing a Baron, a TBM 700/850, and then moving up to a CJ1 maybe a CJ2. I know the basics like from the Baron to the CJ operating costs are about double, travel time is half with the TBM in the middle. The CJ is going to be more comfortable and safer. However, I’m looking at average trips in the 400 mile range or less for 1-2 people. If we had the range/space, we would use it occasionally but it may also become cost prohibitive. I would have 1 partner on the first 2 and 2 on the CJ so entry costs isn’t significantly different.
Last time we met with the management guys and the other partner we pretty well eliminated the Baron, so what’s the break point in trip types where the CJ is a no brainer or is it strictly just justifying the additional dollars for the safety/speed factor? I know zero about private plane types, but I do work for a lot of guys with them so I understand the cost factor well.

Don't cheap out on maintenance or pilots. If you get a jet, get the engines ( and maybe the whole plane) on a maintenance program. Helps defray the costs of overhaul and some of the programs will give you loaner engines so you're not down for 2 weeks.

Handcruser · February 25, 2021

Think we’re going to start with the Baron after a lot of back and forth. The operating costs on the CJ don’t make sense with the distances we’ll be flying. We’ll apparently have access to a CJ and a Lear through the management company when we need more distance at an hourly rate. The Baron has a brand new interior, new paint, upgraded electronics, etc. and my half isn’t too bad. The guy that runs the management company would prefer it over the single engine setups with us having some trips that may run in the dark.

Do you know which baron?

Brew · February 25, 2021

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

On 2/23/2021 at 6:21 AM, Brew said:

For those that have small plane backgrounds, what do I need to consider when comparing a Baron, a TBM 700/850, and then moving up to a CJ1 maybe a CJ2. I know the basics like from the Baron to the CJ operating costs are about double, travel time is half with the TBM in the middle. The CJ is going to be more comfortable and safer. However, I’m looking at average trips in the 400 mile range or less for 1-2 people. If we had the range/space, we would use it occasionally but it may also become cost prohibitive. I would have 1 partner on the first 2 and 2 on the CJ so entry costs isn’t significantly different.
Last time we met with the management guys and the other partner we pretty well eliminated the Baron, so what’s the break point in trip types where the CJ is a no brainer or is it strictly just justifying the additional dollars for the safety/speed factor? I know zero about private plane types, but I do work for a lot of guys with them so I understand the cost factor well.

Don't cheap out on maintenance or pilots. If you get a jet, get the engines ( and maybe the whole plane) on a maintenance program. Helps defray the costs of overhaul and some of the programs will give you loaner engines so you're not down for 2 weeks.

Management company requires all planes they manage to be in the engine maintenance programs, parts program is optional. Pilots are all full time for the management company and seem like a knowledgeable bunch. We met one of the younger ones today to look at the Baron and CJ and he knew what he was talking about. He gave us the rundown on all the other planes in the hangar.

Brew · February 25, 2021

11 minutes ago, Handcruser said:

Do you know which baron?

It is a 1996 58. It was owned by a client for 4 years (he moved up to the CJ we are looking at and is now moving up to a Lear), then another client of mine bought it last year and we would be buying in half. The management company has a client that has offered to buy it if we go up to the CJ. I talked with the owner of the management company and it and the CJ have been maintained with an open checkbook and are fully updated and they are very high on both.

Cajun · February 25, 2021

Sums up this thread for me -

Homercles · February 26, 2021

On 2/24/2021 at 12:02 AM, Lat22 said:

I thought I was the only dork that watched him.

Him, Premier1Driver and a couple others are all the plane needs I follow.

MaclovioBrown · February 26, 2021

On 2/23/2021 at 12:24 PM, Homercles said:

PM Stevo1Kinevo on YouTube for the TBM (semi-serious).

He showed up with his dad on an episode of Going RV sometime back. Definite attention horse

MaclovioBrown · February 26, 2021

Just now, MaclovioBrown said:

He showed up with his dad on an episode of Going RV sometime back. Definite attention horse

Plus he drives a poor man’s Socata. Weak glass

Homercles · February 26, 2021

Well sounds like homeboy here needs to talk to BaronPilot anyways.

Lat22 · February 26, 2021

I like Niko’s Wings. That guy uses the hell out of his Cirrus.

Chad Fuck · February 27, 2021

There’s a 747-8 outfitted as a business jet for sale on the Sheltair ramp in Lauderdale if anyone has a bit of extra folding money laying about.

Lemme check my couch for loose Woodrow Wilsons.

Armybrat · February 27, 2021

markstanco · February 28, 2021

@Armybrat I find it fascinating you hang out in this thread.

Why didn't you ever get your license?

woohorn · February 28, 2021

He hasn't trusted 'em since they took the top wing off.

Bobby_Batronic · February 28, 2021

On 2/27/2021 at 8:22 AM, Chad Fuck said:

Lemme check my couch for loose Woodrow Wilsons.

It’s Qatari registry, so you might find some change in the couches if you go tour it.

CycleTex87 · February 28, 2021

Benjamin’s = $100.

what’s a Woody = ???

I suppose the operating cost of a 747-8 is > $100/ hr.

Chad Fuck · February 28, 2021

5 minutes ago, CycleTex87 said:

Benjamin’s = $100.

what’s a Woody = ???

I suppose the operating cost of a 747-8 is > $100/ hr.

Grover Cleveland would also do, but you'd need a far greater stack:

CycleTex87 · February 28, 2021

Lemme check my Longhorn piggy bank.

Bobby_Batronic · March 1, 2021

1 hour ago, CycleTex87 said:

Benjamin’s = $100.

what’s a Woody = ???

I suppose the operating cost of a 747-8 is > $100/ hr.

I’d bet it’s closer to $100 a minute in fuel costs alone at cruise.

An A321 burns about 15 gallons a minute at cruise, and that -8 has twice the motors with 100% more push.

Probably the old $10k hamburger if you wanted to take it one way from FLL to PBI. Or Cuban if you headed to MIA.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Bobby_Batronic

Armybrat · March 1, 2021

On 2/28/2021 at 12:00 AM, markstanco said:

@Armybrat I find it fascinating you hang out in this thread.

Why didn't you ever get your license?

On 2/28/2021 at 12:23 AM, woohorn said:

He hasn't trusted 'em since they took the top wing off.

Couldn’t afford it, and have been susceptible to air sickness/equilibrium problems because of inner ear discombobulation caused by being punctured with a sharp pencil in junior high school. (Damn that asshole who sat behind me in World Geography class - Taipei American School, 1958)
When my kids were young and we took them to Six Flags & Disney World, I never could go on the rides with them and had to watch from a bench. Luckily Mrs. Brat was a gamer and loved the rides. (Those too).

And to follow the rules...

Edited March 1, 2021 by Armybrat

Prepuce of Doom · March 3, 2021

Soothing and hypnotic.

~~~~~

I live close enough to ORD that I can always hear something, but during certain wind conditions, I hear a fair amount of noise. And every time there's a plane taking off that's louder than usual and actually almost intrusive, I look it up on FlightRadar and it's an MD-11 or similar.

Can someone explain in just a few sentences (at most) explain why that is?

Lat22 · March 3, 2021

I think it’s because the heavys use high bypass turbofans. I should let an actual pilot answer but that’s my guess.

Bobby_Batronic · March 3, 2021

9 hours ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

Soothing and hypnotic.

~~~~~

I live close enough to ORD that I can always hear something, but during certain wind conditions, I hear a fair amount of noise. And every time there's a plane taking off that's louder than usual and actually almost intrusive, I look it up on FlightRadar and it's an MD-11 or similar.

Can someone explain in just a few sentences (at most) explain why that is?

Complete guess, but big motors move more air and large wings and lifting surfaces create more wind noise.

Having said that, 777 motors are moving twice the air as an MD-11. It’s probably just the acoustics of your location, something to do with the bypass ratio (low speed, quieter fan air to high speed, louder, jet exhaust) and the natural sound signature of the motors involved.

The motors powering the 11 have been around since the late 70’s to early 80’s and power A300 series, 747s, 767s, MD10/11s, C5s and the core is used on some 777s. All that to say that they probably meet all noise limit requirements, and are just louder than other motor types on smaller planes. They’re still loads quieter than the original turbojets or low bypass fans.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Bobby_Batronic

Lat22 · March 3, 2021

I know the sound he's talking about though. It's like a low buzzsaw. Only the big planes seem to make it.

Prepuce of Doom · March 3, 2021

747s don't make it (though they are pretty easily identifiable by sound), 777s and 787s don't make it, A380s don't make it - it's strange that pretty reliably, whenever it's a "holy shit, what kind of monster is making all that racket?" it's almost invariably an MD-11.

The acoustic effect definitely seems to be most pronounced under certain wind conditions (wind carrying ORD noise to me, and planes taking off facing away from me).

Bobby_Batronic · March 3, 2021

17 minutes ago, Lat22 said:

I know the sound he's talking about though. It's like a low buzzsaw. Only the big planes seem to make it.

Big fans make that sound. I don’t know why. One of the motors types on the 11 is the CF6 or TF39, and is known as a bit of a screamer on the C5’s that haven’t been updated to CFM Super Galaxies.

I know FedEx has them on their 11’s, UPS has the Pratt’s, and I don’t know if they mix their engine types in fleer (some being Pratt and others being CF6). Usually not, but the 11 was built in limited quantities, and they may have laid their hands on them wherever they could for cargo conversion.

Completely spitballing, but he may be hearing that.

Your Mom · March 3, 2021

There's some high-tech mumbo jumbo PFM type stuff they do to reduce noise these days. Engineers have made entire careers out of quieting the engines as they get more powerful. Old stuff is loud. New stuff is quieter. Sometimes it's the most random sounding things like scalloped nacelle exhausts, etc...

Bobby_Batronic · March 3, 2021

29 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

There's some high-tech mumbo jumbo PFM type stuff they do to reduce noise these days. Engineers have made entire careers out of quieting the engines as they get more powerful. Old stuff is loud. New stuff is quieter. Sometimes it's the most random sounding things like scalloped nacelle exhausts, etc...

Scalloping seems to make sense, and yet Airbus won’t do it because they think they can do some kind of sound baffling that has the same effect without the performance hit.

I can say the new geared turbofans are crazy quiet, and they even mostly hold together these days. Still have to turn the ATHR off and manually sync them at times.

CycleTex87 · March 3, 2021

I have a buddy who worked at Pratt & Whitney as an engineer in the part of the company that did root cause failure analysis on engine failures. He said as a result of his work, he almost refuses to fly on PW powered aircraft.

markstanco · March 3, 2021

10 hours ago, Prepuce of Doom said:

Soothing and hypnotic.

~~~~~

I live close enough to ORD that I can always hear something, but during certain wind conditions, I hear a fair amount of noise. And every time there's a plane taking off that's louder than usual and actually almost intrusive, I look it up on FlightRadar and it's an MD-11 or similar.

Can someone explain in just a few sentences (at most) explain why that is?

Reminds me of the old video of FedEx planes trying to beat a storm.

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