Russia and American elections, now featuring radical republicans as co-stars

[Mdhorn 5948]

39 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Let's just all take a moment and realize that this guy ACTUALLY believes this.  This is not a troll.  And there are millions out there like him.  They are all marks and have been taken.  It's stunning.

It's a troll, nobody can be this willfully stupid.  There are picture of Trumps dominance:

Here he's being dominated by Putin. Upstream, is a picture of him dominated by Kim.  And for the trifecta

Yeah, this dumb motherfucker praised Duterte because of course he did, which is considered a strength for Republicans. Human rights abuses would be considered strength to a group trying to derail Democracy.  Do yourself a favor and put Bravo on ignore with many of the others.  They're not really interested in discourse, just trolling since they can't point to anything worth shit in their party.   We survived 4 years of their pos leader lying hundreds of times a day and these assclowns defend it as strength.  Currently, they're disenfranchising voters because they're strong?  Nah, they know they'll straight up lose so they're always rewriting the rules to game Democracy.  He was a one time president because of his strength and he's been crying about it ever since.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Mdhorn

[washparkhorn 9939]

Russian forces moving into attack positions. Fuck Putin. 

[Neonmoon 38129]

3 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Russian forces moving into attack positions. Fuck Putin. 

Is this like Karate Kid doing the crane pose?

[Longhorn_Fan68 33869]

4 minutes ago, Mdhorn said:

It's a troll, nobody can be this willfully stupid.  There are picture of Trumps dominance:

 

the most stunning part of this pic is that TFG is 6'-3" and Putin is like 5'-6". Here they are seen shoulder-to-shoulder. someone is slouching in defeat 

[Underdog 28613]

7 minutes ago, Mdhorn said:

It's a troll, nobody can be this willfully stupid.  There are picture of Trumps dominance:

Here he's being dominated by Putin. Upstream, is a picture of him dominated by Kim.  And for the trifecta

Yeah, this dumb motherfucker praised Duterte because of course he did, which is considered a strength for Republicans. Human rights abuses would be considered strength to a group trying to derail Democracy.  Do yourself a favor and put Bravo on ignore with many of the others.  They're not really interested in discourse, just trolling since they can't point to anything worth shit in their party.   We survived 4 years of their pos lying hundreds of times a day and these assclowns defend it as strength.  Currently, they're disenfranchising voters because they're strong?  Nah, they know they'll straight up lose so they're always rewriting the rules to game Democracy.  

LOL...  feared by many.  He’s feared only by Republicans, everyone else just laughs at him. 

[washparkhorn 9939]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

Is this like Karate Kid doing the crane pose?

More like a wolf pack encircling its prey. 

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

Autocrats played Trump like a fiddle. They knew that if they throw some flattery his way, tell him what a great and strong leader he is, they could manipulate him. They know he’s a fucking moron, a narcissist, and a total amateur when it comes to geopolitics. They were fucking laughing at him. Right in front of him. And he (and his supporters) were too stupid to see it.

[elfenix 34230]

8 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Everyday I read this forum, I’m saddened by the fact that my vote has the same weight as some of the dumbest fucking people. 

[atomheartbevo 89649]

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Let's just all take a moment and realize that this guy ACTUALLY believes this.  This is not a troll.  And there are millions out there like him.  They are all marks and have been taken.  It's stunning.

He also doesn't realize that his buddy's kid that's at VMI is more of a man at 18 or 19 or 20 years old or whatever, then Trump, Trump Jr, or Eric Trump will ever be, simply by virtue of having the balls to serve in the military. 

That's what I don't get about the Republican love of Trump - The Trump clan is full of fucking cowards - none of them ever risked their lives for this country, and Trump Sr. fucking used the excuse of some bone spurs bullshit that he can't even keep straight to avoid serving during Vietnam.

And we are supposed to believe a former KGB officer running Russia is going to be intimidated by Cadet Bonespurs Trump?

Edited February 14, 2022 by atomheartbevo

[atomheartbevo 89649]

2 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Russian forces moving into attack positions. Fuck Putin. 

There's so many ways this can go badly for Putin, that I'm surprised he's doing this.  This could end up with him losing power if enough Russian kids get sent home in bodybags - at what point do the Russian people start asking why purpose is served by killing lots of Ukrainian and losing lots of Russian boys?

There's only so many billionaires that Putin can round up and imprison.

[Satchel 6938]

2 hours ago, Underdog said:

LOL...  feared by many.  He’s feared only by Republicans, everyone else just laughs at him. 

Check out how Lil’ Kim is looking at him. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

34 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

There's so many ways this can go badly for Putin, that I'm surprised he's doing this.  This could end up with him losing power if enough Russian kids get sent home in bodybags - at what point do the Russian people start asking why purpose is served by killing lots of Ukrainian and losing lots of Russian boys?

There's only so many billionaires that Putin can round up and imprison.

I think Putin being ousted from power is about as likely as me getting laid by at least 1 if not 2 super models this weekend.  I can fantasize about both, but neither will happen, and one isn't nearly as fun as the other.

[Brisketexan 105095]

Yeah, I overstated the number of Americans on "Team Russia" -- I was appalled that the number is greater than zero, and gave into hyperbole and said "half."  How about we just go with "more than there fucking should be," looking at how Tucker Carlson is playing that group and how Congressmen are actually getting constituent calls telling us to GTFO Putin's way and actually support Russia's position?  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/25/tucker-carlson-russia-ukraine-democrats

Quote

Fox News host Tucker Carlson said Monday that the U.S. “should probably take the side of Russia,” coming to the defense of the country’s autocratic leader and condemning other American broadcasters for doing the opposite.

The conservative commentator and host of “Tucker Carlson Tonight” said during the latest episode of his prime time opinion program that he believes the U.S. should back Russia rather than Ukraine in the ongoing territorial conflict between the two former Soviet states, doubling-down a week after saying he was rooting for Russia prior to claiming he was “only joking.”

“I think we should probably take the side of Russia if we have to choose between Russia and Ukraine,” Mr. Carlson said Monday night. “That is my view.”

So, mea culpa for overstating the percentage of Americans who would, as Tucker recommends "take the side of Russia."  But that percentage is a shitload higher above zero than it ever should be.  And here we are.

Oh, and Russian state TV LOVES them some Tucker Carlson and Josh Hawley.  They couldn't have bigger allies doing Putin's bidding in the US if they tried.

[TwiceHorn 31451]

4 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Russian forces moving into attack positions. Fuck Putin. 

The 13 year old in me, who is very much still alive, thinks this

Preferably with A1D Skyraiders.

Edited February 15, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Jhawkmvp 1489]

Me reading this thread before page 20:                                            Me reading since Page 20:

                                 

 

 

[atomheartbevo 89649]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I think Putin being ousted from power is about as likely as me getting laid by at least 1 if not 2 super models this weekend.  I can fantasize about both, but neither will happen, and one isn't nearly as fun as the other.

How much are the Russian people willing to tolerate?

And I'm sure the Soviet Union thought they were not going to have any problems when they invaded Afghanistan, a nation with 13 million in 1980, and not the easiest to supply by Western nations.

This time around, Ukraine is very easy to supply by Western nations, and has a shitload more people.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

6 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

How much are the Russian people willing to tolerate?

And I'm sure the Soviet Union thought they were not going to have any problems when they invaded Afghanistan, a nation with 13 million in 1980, and not the easiest to supply by Western nations.

This time around, Ukraine is very easy to supply by Western nations, and has a shitload more people.

The Russian people have been tolerating autocratic, dictators since the formation of Rus. It's literally in their DNA I think.  The only successful uprising in their history was pretty much the Bolshevik revolution.

[Blotto 23498]

1 hour ago, Satchel said:

Check out how Lil’ Kim is looking at him. 

"He's actually dumber than I thought......how is that fucking possible?"

[bolverk 29665]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

The Russian people have been tolerating autocratic, dictators since the formation of Rus. It's literally in their DNA I think.  The only successful uprising in their history was pretty much the Bolshevik revolution.

They were able to fend off the August Coup in 1991 when the Commies tried to take back over, so I'd give them partial credit there.

Bunch of friends and I were out fishing in the Gulf near Port A while that was going on. We kept looking back to Corpus to make sure we weren't going to see a giant mushroom cloud.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, bolverk said:

They were able to fend off the August Coup in 1991 when the Commies tried to take back over, so I'd give them partial credit there.

Bunch of friends and I were out fishing in the Gulf near Port A while that was going on. We kept looking back to Corpus to make sure we weren't going to see a giant mushroom cloud.

Yep, forgot about that.  Those were the Boris Yeltsin days right ?

[atomheartbevo 89649]

8 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

The Russian people have been tolerating autocratic, dictators since the formation of Rus. It's literally in their DNA I think.  The only successful uprising in their history was pretty much the Bolshevik revolution.

Afghanistan helped take down the Soviet Union.  It embarrassed the leadership and the military, it created divisions within the Red Army and cracked the image that the Red Army couldn't be defeated.  It divided the Soviet people into those who didn't see a need for the war and those who did (which helped break up the Soviet Union), and it got a lot of civilians protesting, etc., causing problems (and helping the breakup).

If Putin drives their already-shitty economy into the ground and puts people out of work/in the streets, creates large-scale military losses/deaths, and the people now have social media to coalesce around,  how does that work out for him?  If Afghanistan is not a good analogy, how about the 1910s when Russia was economically harmed by the Ottomans  cutting off trade routes while the military was taking heavy losses.  Only the monarchy wasn't dealing with social media helping organize the peasants.

[Chad Fuck 17670]

The 13 year old in me, who is very much still alive, thinks this
Preferably with A1D Skyraiders.

Spads for the win. Uncle flew F-100s in Vietnam.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Afghanistan helped take down the Soviet Union.  It embarrassed the leadership and the military, it created divisions within the Red Army and cracked the image that the Red Army couldn't be defeated.  It divided the Soviet people into those who didn't see a need for the war and those who did (which helped break up the Soviet Union), and it got a lot of civilians protesting, etc., causing problems (and helping the breakup).

If Putin drives their already-shitty economy into the ground and puts people out of work/in the streets, creates large-scale military losses/deaths, and the people now have social media to coalesce around,  how does that work out for him?  If Afghanistan is not a good analogy, how about the 1910s when Russia was economically harmed by the Ottomans  cutting off trade routes while the military was taking heavy losses.  Only the monarchy wasn't dealing with social media helping organize the peasants.

Yeah all good points.

The internet is the game changer at least as far as getting info out there.  I think it's what would make the difference in a consolidated stance. I've just always been of the opinion they don't have it in them to buck the system much.  Putins goons are a ruthless bunch and they all know they're tied together with him.  They aren't gonna side with the peasants ........errrrr citizens.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Onboard 2.0

[bolverk 29665]

8 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yep, forgot about that.  Those were the Boris Yeltsin days right ?

Yep. Yeltsin took over after that.

[Chad Fuck 17670]

Afghanistan helped take down the Soviet Union.  It embarrassed the leadership and the military, it created divisions within the Red Army and cracked the image that the Red Army couldn't be defeated.  It divided the Soviet people into those who didn't see a need for the war and those who did (which helped break up the Soviet Union), and it got a lot of civilians protesting, etc., causing problems (and helping the breakup).
If Putin drives their already-shitty economy into the ground and puts people out of work/in the streets, creates large-scale military losses/deaths, and the people now have social media to coalesce around,  how does that work out for him?  If Afghanistan is not a good analogy, how about the 1910s when Russia was economically harmed by the Ottomans  cutting off trade routes while the military was taking heavy losses.  Only the monarchy wasn't dealing with social media helping organize the peasants.

Turks give no fucks today either. They’ve shot down what, one? Two? More? Russian aircraft that have strayed into Turkish airspace from Syria. Putin didn’t do shit to them.

[atomheartbevo 89649]

2 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Spads for the win. Uncle flew F-100s in Vietnam.

Had an ROTC instructor who originally flew F-105s in Vietnam, and later F-4s.

He had some wild stories about flying the F-105s, and some of us were kind of like "was it really that nuts?"  but didn't question it.  He passed away about 5 years ago, and a bunch of us on FB were talking about it, and somebody looked it up, and yes, it was really that crazy, and the 105 was actually pulled because it had too many combat losses.  We also found some stuff about him during his F-105 years on a couple of history and F-105 fan sites, and a USAF/DOD site and sent it to his kids.

[Biff Tannen 45674]

8 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

It divided the Soviet people into those who didn't see a need for the war and those who did (which helped break up the Soviet Union), and it got a lot of civilians protesting, etc., causing problems (and helping the breakup).

Not to mention the Scorpions with Winds of Change.

Mostly joking, but was a fun podcast.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/wind-of-change/id1509307460

[immamac 42839]

37 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Turks give no fucks today either. They’ve shot down what, one? Two? More? Russian aircraft that have strayed into Turkish airspace from Syria. Putin didn’t do shit to them.

Turkey would absolutely fucking destroy Russia in all out war.

[Irwin F Fletcher 3550]

Let's just all take a moment and realize that this guy ACTUALLY believes this.  This is not a troll.  And there are millions out there like him.  They are all marks and have been taken.  It's stunning.

About the best I can muster for Bravo and his band of degenerate morons is a hearty flipping of the bird for what they've done to the country.

However, I will give them credit, every time they open their mouths or type out some nonsense, it only reinforces my choice to abandon the GOP.

[InkaUtexas 25909]

4 hours ago, immamac said:

Turkey would absolutely fucking destroy Russia in all out war.

Only if the Turkish tribes in the Caucus raise up. He won't fuck with Turkey since they are NATO. 

What I hope is if he goes in the Ukrainians remind him of the ass kicking the Russians took in Chechnya. That was an ass kicking and a major defeat for multiple Russian administrations. If they do go in, we (the Agency) need to figure out a way to unleash the clans. Putin has pulled a lot of his forces from his underbelly. Let the Qatari's pay for it with the profit from all the LNG they will be selling the EU. 

[crash_davis 23107]

Russia and US conservative media. republicans are Russia's bitches. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-accuses-financial-website-spreading-russian-propaganda-82898788

Quote

WASHINGTON -- U.S. intelligence officials on Tuesday accused a conservative financial news website with a significant American readership of amplifying Kremlin propaganda and alleged five media outlets targeting Ukrainians have taken direction from Russian spies.

 

[atomheartbevo 89649]

1 minute ago, crash_davis said:

Russia and US conservative media. republicans are Russia's bitches. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-accuses-financial-website-spreading-russian-propaganda-82898788

Are there people, besides my Qanon in-law, who thought ZeroHedge was anything but Russian propaganda?

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

2 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

Russia and US conservative media. republicans are Russia's bitches. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/us-accuses-financial-website-spreading-russian-propaganda-82898788

 

Zero Hedge. Yeah, they’re a known outlet for Russian propaganda. There were numerous Trumpkins repeating their b.s. on here during the Russia investigation. 

[crash_davis 23107]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Zero Hedge. Yeah, they’re a known outlet for Russian propaganda. There were numerous Trumpkins repeating their b.s. on here during the Russia investigation. 

i have a dipshit brother who thinks russia and putin are our friends. i wonder the fuck why? these idiots are oblivious that their "news" is controlled by russia. that's why Reps don't really care about doing good for the country. they just want the country to burn, which is exactly what Putin wants.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

2 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

i have a dipshit brother who thinks russia and putin are our friends. i wonder the fuck why? these idiots are oblivious that their "news" is controlled by russia. that's why Reps don't really care about doing good for the country. they just want the country to burn, which is exactly what Putin wants.

 

And we still don’t know how much money was funneled through the NRA to Republican coffers. 

[crash_davis 23107]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

And we still don’t know how much money was funneled through the NRA to Republican coffers. 

that Russian spy chic was probably hosting gangbangs for LaPierre and his execs. those dudes were prob easily bought for the mere cost of Russian hookers.

[Biff Tannen 45674]

28 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

And we still don’t know how much money was funneled through the NRA to Republican coffers. 

This is something that absolutely needs to be brought to the light of day.  If this isn't being investigated, that's a major failure.  Would that fall to DOJ?

[crash_davis 23107]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

This is something that absolutely needs to be brought to the light of day.  If this isn't being investigated, that's a major failure.  Would that fall to DOJ?

seriously what would it matter? just look at how much money the Russians gave to Mitch McConnell and other congressman. look at how much Russian money is tied to Trump. if no one gave a shit about any of that, no one is going to give a shit about Russians owning the NRA. half the country doesn't give a shit about Russian influence. they just care about blaming minorities, gay sex, and book burnings, you know..the same propaganda shit spewed by Russia influence "news" sites.

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

32 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

that Russian spy chic was probably hosting gangbangs for LaPierre and his execs. those dudes were prob easily bought for the mere cost of Russian hookers.

Maria Buttina. She was showing up at a lot of Republican events, getting her picture taken with various congressmen, had an affair with at least one, and asked a staged question of Trump at some appearance where he had a prepared answer. It’s hard to imagine that she was the only Russian intelligence operative to infiltrate the GOP. 

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

12 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

This is something that absolutely needs to be brought to the light of day.  If this isn't being investigated, that's a major failure.  Would that fall to DOJ?

Yeah, it should. Good luck getting Merrick Garland to act. The FBI should be handling the counterintelligence aspect of it. Buttina was jailed for a time. I’d have to go back and check but I don’t think it was all that long before she was sent back to Russia where she was treated like a celebrity. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33869]

43 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Maria Buttina. She was showing up at a lot of Republican events, getting her picture taken with various congressmen, had an affair with at least one, and asked a staged question of Trump at some appearance where he had a prepared answer. It’s hard to imagine that she was the only Russian intelligence operative to infiltrate the GOP. 

did you see the second Borat movie? apparently it's super fucking easy to infiltrate the GOP ranks

[Gil Bang 25944]

Motherfuckers, WE HAD HALF A DOZEN GOP SENATORS SPEND JULY 4 IN MOSCOW!  MOSCOW!

 

The GOP lawmakers, Sen. Richard Shelby (Ala.), Steve Daines (Mont.), John Thune (S.D.), John Kennedy (La.), Jerry Moran (Kan.) and John Hoeven (N.D.), and Rep. Kay Granger (R-Texas), spent July 4 in Moscow’s U.S. Embassy, NPR reported.

 

[Post Oak 20210]

On 2/13/2022 at 11:23 PM, Bravo said:

BTW no way this is happening with Trump as prez. World leaders were afraid of his ass. Maybe they thought him unstable or more Reagan like but this shit would not happen of happened with Trump. Putin saw our horrible withdrawal from Afghanistan and said OK i have a bitch. It's true. It is that simple. Russians respond to strength or weakness.

You are a magnificent twat. Sack-ish.  But you have an elbow for a brain.

[WhatTheBuck 28776]

6 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

Motherfuckers, WE HAD HALF A DOZEN GOP SENATORS SPEND JULY 4 IN MOSCOW!  MOSCOW!

 

The GOP lawmakers, Sen. Richard Shelby (Ala.), Steve Daines (Mont.), John Thune (S.D.), John Kennedy (La.), Jerry Moran (Kan.) and John Hoeven (N.D.), and Rep. Kay Granger (R-Texas), spent July 4 in Moscow’s U.S. Embassy, NPR reported.

 

Comrade John Kennedy.

 

[gmr548 16576]

lol y’all responding to Bravo

[Michael Knight 12977]

4 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Are there people, besides my Qanon in-law, who thought ZeroHedge was anything but Russian propaganda?

Who was the economy doomsday guy from shaggy that always used zerohedge

[elfenix 34230]

2 minutes ago, Michael Knight said:

Who was the economy doomsday guy from shaggy that always used zerohedge

zork.

[SydneyCarton 48076]

19 minutes ago, elfenix said:

zork.

Well that worked out well for him. In related news, struggling to identify reality from fantasy on the internet seemed to be a theme. 

[bolverk 29665]

1 hour ago, Michael Knight said:

Who was the economy doomsday guy from shaggy that always used zerohedge

 

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

zork.

also DSA

[Gatorubet 30213]

This is completely (and demonstrably) wrong. The Georgia/Ukraine NATO timeline is public, it is exhaustive and it is indisputable. The invitation to Georgia and Ukraine to join NATO as agreed upon and publicly stated began well before that 2008 War and Russia’s subsequent invasion.
 
But yeah, let’s talk about that war. Because what whole thing was fucking absurd and I am honestly not surprised that the US media (unlike ours here, which actually reports on it) just kinda says “ehhhhh, Russia invaded Georgia ... hey, look over there guys!” and sweeps it under the rug, because the truth of the ordeal is a fucking embarrassment..to us, to NATO, and to our credibility in Western Europe. I mean, there legitimately could be compelling HBO series made about this complete shit show...and particularly the time since the ceasefire. Jesus Christ its insane.
 
First, the timeline:
 
The timeline as per official US State Department cable dispatches*, Georgian Government/NATO press releases, and THE official investigative report by the Independent International Fact-Finding Mission on the Conflict in Georgia, which was the authoritative investigatory commission set up by the Council of the EU (adopted as official by the UN) and carried out by esteemed Swiss Diplomat Heidi Tagliavini**,:
 

• February 14, 2005: NATO begins the official membership track with Georgia with execution of NATO PfP process.
   
• March 16, 2005: NATO and Georgia sign agreement authorizing them to act as host and transit country for NATO forces
   
• March 26, 2006 : NATO Individual Partner Action Plan (IPAP) implementation team arrives in Tbilisi for implementation of IPAP
   
• April 13, 2006 the IPAP implementation assessment is presented to the larger NATO 26+1 format
   
• Mid-January, 2008: Russia is formally notified through the January 2008 Burns-Lavrov discussions of our intent move forward with a Membership Action Plan (MAP) for Ukraine and Georgia, as evidenced by the infamous January 30th  “Nyet Means Nyet” cable  sent to the Joint Chiefs, NATO, NSA, Sec Def, Sec State by then-Ambassador to Russia, and current CIA Director, William Burns, which was later leaked by Wikileaks. I have attached that cable below.
   
• April 4th, 2008: NATO’s Bucharest Summit. NATO officially announces that Ukraine and Georgia would join saying, “NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO” in the official Summit Declaration.
   
• Mid-July, 2008: The U.S. carries out joint military exercises called “Immediate Response” with the Georgians in Georgia in mid-July 2008 involving approx 2,000 troops from the US, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Ukraine.
   
• Late July/Early August 2008: The Russians respond by carrying out their own drills in their own North Caucasus Military District and on the Black Sea;
   
• First week of August 2008: South Ossetians and Georgians ratcheted up hostilities with tit-for-tat car bombings and sniper fire. It is amost certains that Russians were also involved in this.
   
• Night of August 7th to 8th: As per the IIFFMCG Official Report, “hostilities commence with the Georgian military operation consisting of “massive shelling” of Tskhinvali during the night of August 7th and 8th" (although the report does note that there was a long period of tensions, provocations and incidents on both sides prior to the Georgian military action).
   
• August 8th, 2:30 PM: Russians commence invasion of Georgia. They get to within 10 miles of Tbilisi before stopping
   
• August 12th: Ceasefire agreement negotiations commence
   
• August 16th, Condoleeza Rice travels to Tbilisi, where Saakashvili, signs ceasefire in her presence. Dmitry Medvedev signs next day in Moscow.
   
• August 17th: Russians pull back to their South Ossetian positions and both sides swap POWs.
   
• Fin

(all dates are correct...for ease of sourcing, I will post to Wikipedia for the pre-war history, and the BBC hosted version of the IFFMCG report for post invasion dates)
 
So, no. NATO expansion into Ukraine and Georgia was in no way a response to the Russo-Georgian War in August 2008. That’s not even something that reasonable minds can disagree on. That process was far, far along before shit kicked off in 2008.
 
*This diplomatic cable is worth the read for a variety of reasons, most notably that the tone and rationality of each side towards the topic is a far, far cry from what it is today. Plus, at least for me, it was absolutely fascinating in general. They explicitly discussed the fact that Georgia and Ukraine were moving forward with an official MAP in that Memo and you can literally read in Burns’ own words that Russia had accepted the current state of NATO, and recognized NATO’s legitimate regional interests, but Lavrov explicitly communicates that the entire NATO-Russian relationship would change if those two - especially Ukraine - were admitted because of the deep, deep threat perception/difficulties/instabilities/internal Russian domestic impact that would be perceived by such an action. It is literally in black and white in that State Dept. cable.
 
The entire cable spoilered below:
Spoiler

----

 

 

 

 

 
----
 

**Tagliavini’s credibility is impeccable. She has been everything from Swiss Ambassador to Moscow to the Personal Representative of the OSCE in the Caucuses, to Swiss Ambassador to Bosnia and Herz during the 1990s/early 2000s and head of Diplomatic Affairs for the Swiss Dept of Foreign Affairs. She was the Chief of Mission for the UN Observer Mission in Georgia for years before the war - observing the implementation of the 1993 agreement - and has been the Special Representative of the General Secretary of OSCE wrt the Ukraine-Russia conflict and was essentially responsible for the original ceasefire and subsequent Minsk Protocols. She is literally at the highest echelon of European diplomats. And as is known, the Swiss are badasses when it comes to diplomacy.
 
The Carnegie Institute for Peace - Moscow, which Burns cites as subject matter experts on the topic of Russian-NATO expansion in the Nyet Means Nyet memo, says that there is no question who fired first, and that it was the Georgians. But more importantly, they go on to say that one of the single biggest factors in that war was that Georgian PM Saakashvili (dear loooord, this fuckin' guy)*** misread GWB’s willingness to defend Georgia should they attack. When he did, and we didn’t defend him, he was fucked. This is EXACTLY what we are running the risk of doing now in Ukraine. Biden seems to be very, very aware of this and it seems that his people (particularly Jake Sullivan) to continuously convey our position to an increasingly despearate Zelensky.
 
***Saakashvili. Dear. God. This guy. And what became of Saakashvili - that same Georgian President that was found by the IIFFMCG to have triggered the war by shelling Tskhinvali, thus getting his country buttraped by the Russians?
 
Ohhhh, let’s just talk about the Journey of Lil’ Misha Saakashvili. I am going to spoiler this for those who don't care, but if you want to read the wildest, batshit crazy part of this whole ordeal, AND the part that is critically important wrt the Western European insistence to stay out of this mess, read about this guy. Read about the oh-so-western, oh-so-democratic, oh-so-stable leader of Georgia in 2008 and what wild and crazy adventures this fuckstick has been on in the years following. And remember while you read this...every single voter in Germany or Fance or the Netherlands knows who this guy is by name and knows the entire story of this great, great man who the US championed as a freedom fighter.
 
 
Spoiler

 
Three years after the 2008 Russo-German war, Saakashvili was booted out of office and then moved to Ukraine and became a leader in the Maidan revolution. He immediately gets Ukrainian citizenship under bizarre circumstances, and, inexplicitly then enters Ukraine’s government as Governor of Odessa (only AFTER turning down the post of First Prime Minister of Ukraine (WTF?) because it would require him to give up his Georgian Citizenship,.
 
 
Which is weird, as I can’t imagine ever having the Governor of Alberta losing an election due to findings of mass, mass corruption, fleeing to Texas, suddenly getting citizenship and us saying…yeah, you know that Canuck sounds pretty damned good, he knows about oil and stuff…let’s vote him in to lead our major state”.
 
 
But ok…whatever. He was widely seen as “the US’ guy” (former US State Dept intern, went to Columbia Law) meeting with GWB and having McCain basically fellate him on Georgian TV over there, so take it for what its worth.
 
But that’s just the beginning:
 
 
Remember…and I repeat myself…this guy isn’t Ukrainian. He’s Georgian.
 
 
Ukrainian PM Petro Poroshenko (a committed, albeit corrupt, Pro-Western/Anti-Russian Ukrainian PM) catches Saakashvili trying to pull off a Coup d’etat against Ukraine’s own Pro-Western government IN THE FUCKING UKRAINE, so he is stripped of his citizenship and deported.
 
And to where? Tbilisi? Warsaw? Chișinău?
 
Nah, fucking Brooklyn. At which time he was stripped of all citizenships and became stateless, which is honestly quite an achievement.
 
But then, for some reason, he was allowed to return to Ukraine (many believe it was at the behest of us) in 2017. He was then arrested by the Ukrainian Security Services AGAIN, this time on the charge of “attempting to overthrow the Ukrainian constitution”, AS WELL AS for receiving funds from a criminal organization tied to the ex-Ukrainian PM.
 
Surely that’s the end of this guy, though, right? I mean, come on.
 
Oh noooo. Oh no it isn’t.
 
 
Poroshenko then loses to current president/US ally Vlodomyr Zelensky in 2019. And one of Zelensky’s first acts? He bizarelly pardons Saakashvili AND THEN APPOINTS HIM TO LEAD THE UKRAINIAN EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE FOR NATIONAL REFORM. Yeah, because that makes a lot of sense. Ex-Georgian President, kicked out of office in Georgia for large scale corruption, moves to Ukraine, gets kicked out and stripped of all nationalities, arrested twice for attempted coup…this guy definitely knows about good-governance reform. Perfect fit. Absolutely NOTHING shady there. I can say for sure, this looks GREAT to Western Europeans. Real winners over there, say all the "naive" German and French voters. 
 
But then what did our great NATO 2008/Good Governance leader, ol’ trusty Mikheil, do after inexplicably being tasked with reforming the pathetically corrupt Ukraine?
 
Did he continue his noble work on “National Reform” in Ukraine?
 
Did he keep his head down trying to do the Lord’s work for good-governance and salvage his fourth (or was it fifth) chance?
 
Oh no. Of course, not…he bolted from Ukraine and then FUCKING SHOWED UP LAST MONTH IN GEORGIA CALLING FOR HIS SUPPORTERS TO STORM THE CAPITAL IN TBILISI and overthrow the current pro-Western/Pro-NATO government in favor of himself before he was arrested AGAAAAIINNNN and thrown into a Georgian jail. To which he is apparently going to be detained forever, per the statements of the current Georgian President.
 
Yes, this is all true. Yes, this is factual. Don’t believe me? Just look him up online “Mikheil Saakashvili”…THIS is the man who we were supporting in Georgia and then once again in Ukraine. This is they type of people with whom we throw our lot over there, while knowing that we are completely obliterating our support with Western European allies because our “people” in Ukraine and Georgia are legit fucking nimrods. I mean, its like we just created politicians comprised of equal part Trump Pillow Guy/Matt Gaetz/Don Jr and said...hey, run shit in geopolitical hotspots.
 
This is what I mean when I say we are viewing this with shortsightedness. When the US and NATO come to Germany with the “big ask” relating to China or Iran or whatever, do you know what the Linke or AfD or even the SPD on occasion does…they point to people like Saakashvili. They point to people like Zelensky. They point to this raging shit show and they say, “Remember that guy...no, not the little comedian riding around in the tank or the billionaire Chocolate Oligarch who stole all our infrastructure funds paying off his friends...we mean the one who tried to go Leeroy Jenkins on Russia and then carry out coup d'etat's against two separate countries...yeah, that one that GWB and John McCain showed up to praise. yeah...remember him? You guys wanna go ahead and follow the Americans into this shit in the middle east?”
 
Jesus Christ, it is like I have lost my mind living in a world where any of this is seen as remotely normal or would remotely be acceptable if the other side wasn’t Russia. Like any of this would warrant one single American or European life or one single dollar of a US/EU taxpayer.
 
These countries are legit fucking insane. Russia. Ukraine. Georgia. All three of them.
 
They. Are. Fucking. Insane.
 
So, no, Western Europeans aren’t naive or heartless when they don’t want to expand our nice, secure, clean, peaceful social welfare states to include them. They are instead smart and informed.
 

Anyway, back to the 2008 war:
 
It is my opinion is that Russia was “being typical Russia” and thus lying in wait, fully prepared to exploit Georgia’s stupidity (and most certainly instigating it with low-level provocation), but Georgia played right into their hands by shelling South Ossetia and got in way over its head and ultimately paid the price. And this is EXACTLY what bothers me…the very real risk that their neighbors get stupid and silly when neighbor relations are viewed through the lens of having the world’s biggest and baddest military is in their corner. Russia’s neighbors have ancient disputes with Russia…they couldn’t act on them based on their own power, but they sure as fuck can feel empowered when they think that A10 Warthogs and the US Marines are in their corner. The worst thing one can do when dealing with smaller, underdeveloped countries is to give them the big bad stick and tell them that we've got their back. We can - and should when the time is right - defend non-NATO members based precisely on the circumstances at hand - and we can do that with Ukraine and Georgia if the situation is right -  but giving guarantees...giving Article 5 protection to this basket full of chowderheads is insane. 
 
Furthermore, according to the findings of the IIFFMCG (which were only findings of fact, as the mission was not a tribunal), which was investigated over 9 months by a whole slew of distinguished Western European political/military/legal experts, no one involved in this was innocent. Neither party was justified and both sides violated international law:
 
Details of the report spoilered:
Spoiler

 
Per the Report:
 
 
- the Georgians violated International law initially by shelling Tskhinvali indiscriminately during the night of August 7/8 with GRAD Multiple Rocket Launchers (which had been provided to them by the US), as indiscriminate shelling through the entire night did not satisfy the requirements of being necessary or proportionate;
 
- The Georgians violated international law in their use of force against Russian peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia, as the Mission found that there was no ongoing armed attack by Russia prior to the start of the Georgian operation and Georgia provided no evidence to the commission that Russian armed forces were on South Ossetia prior to the offensive, and they could provide no evidence that Russians were on the verge of a major attack.
 
-The Russians did not violate international law when they defended their Peacekeepers in South Ossetia, as their initial response was proportionate to the Georgian attack.
 
-The Russians DID violate international law in the subsequent military invasion which was deemed to exceed far beyond the reasonable limits of self-defense when they bombed the Kodori Valley and took control of Georgian towns and highways during the 5 day invasion.
 
-Both sides committed violations of International Humanitarian/Human Rights Law in their respective campaigns, both before and after the ceasefire. Errrrbody was all fucked up over there.
 
Now, none of this can be completely deemed correct...it is for certain that Russians were preparing for this, but they are going on what they could prove, and any attempt to spin it with PR machines on either side is beyond what I care about. The Russians say the report is wrong because it was too hard on them, the Georgians/pro-NATO side says it was wrong because it assumes results based on things that occurred, but weren't proved. I don't care. I care about the report from someone who is a credible, disinterested Diplomat. And if she legitimately "wronged" either side, then the Ukrainians and the Russians wouldn't have agreed on her as the mediator in Minsk II, so spare me with the hot takes from the Russian or American press saying "she's wrong"
There have been coordinated efforts in recent years by both the Russians and the Georgians to propogandize and twist this report in their media spheres into some form of justification and “see, it was totally the other guy…100% him” bullshit over the years, but the report is neutral, it is thorough, and it is damning of the behavior of both sides. 

 
Bottom line, “Russia Bad, Little Russian Democratic Neighbors Good” is a naive way to view geopolitics here. So no, the Germans don’t see their worldview towards Russia as “sophisticated” or “self-centered”…they are simply informed. As opposed to what passes for foreign affairs coverage in the English Language Media.
 
956 mentioned a great man in an earlier post...Vaclav Havel...or we can also use Lech Walesa. When we entred into these important relationships with these countries and guaranteed their safety, they were led by wise, experienced, and (pardon the cheese) Great Men. They had experienced hardship. They knew the horrors of war and they knew the value of their freedom. They weren't about lining their own pockets, or carrying out coups, or balls deep in shady dealings etc. They were about bringing real, meaningful security for their people. We literally have people over there now who would make Donald Trump blush when it comes to their corruption, incompetence and audacity.
 
God, we are gonna waltz into something bad here, aren't we? I see that Putin and Biden are having an urgent call today to discuss. I am not feeling nearly as optimistic as I was that we are going to avoid something over there...there is no reason to have this call with the January 10th call already set. Something isn't good.
 
Well, it's 3:00 PM for me...and while the Germans say "Kein Bier vor Vier"...I'm giving myself 90 minutes grace.
 
Edit: Sorry all, but I don't know why the fuck this random screen cap of the cable is stuck below, but I can't figure out how to get it removed without fucking up my spoiled cap of the cable, so I am just leaving it.