Ammo vending machines

[BurntEyes 5958]

In all, a great discussion. Subcribed!

[Covri 6244]

4 hours ago, Handcruser said:

What are you talking about?

[YGIFS 19449]

Yeah, that's why I said "Sporting goods store" like an exurb.  I think a sole prop would be the most stringent.  Then, even a low level sales associate at an Academy or Cabela's is gonna follow protocol because he's got guys eyes on him/CCTV, plus shrink prevention, secret shoppers, who knows what else?  I think we're both picturing the same guy.  Some place that offers the county little league uniforms, fishing gear, ammo, camping stuff.  3 locations region-wide kinda deal.  Owner kinda floats between locations and some locations are only 2-3 guys deep covering the all departments.  Clerk just wants to keep the line moving and back to his phone since there's no cameras or loss prevention guy roaming around.  He doesn't even know the family that started the place.  We all know that guy, we've all dealt with that guy. 

You really think they'll be that easy to physically break into rather than to hack them?  I know nothing of how that technology works, but from a physical standpoint---that thing looks pretty damn sturdy.  You couldn't smash through the front window backwards in a truck and winch the damn thing with enough time to get away.  Not worth it over a few grand in ammo.  Plus I'm sure the machines have little GPS deals in them you can't strip out.  I was thinking a security chokepoint would be a delivery/re-stocking.  

[Captainant 27625]

I suspect it'll be exactly one school shooting linked to these ammo vending machines in grocery stores before they're pulled

[YGIFS 19449]

As others have stated, I sincerely doubt a mass shooter would be dumb enough to buy ammo from a Kroger's.  I was merely inquiring as to logistics, security of the device, re-stock vulnerability, and how it could be used for straw-man purposes despite it needing an ID and face.  I don't think any responsible owner is gonna abuse the availability of the inventory.  It's those circling around on the periphery that can cause the most trouble.  

[BurntEyes 5958]

24 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

You really think they'll be that easy to physically break into rather than to hack them?  I know nothing of how that technology works, but from a physical standpoint---that thing looks pretty damn sturdy.  You couldn't smash through the front window backwards in a truck and winch the damn thing with enough time to get away. 

Hah, no, it's not that I think they will be easy to break into. Likely the opposite, which again gun store is probably easier to get into.

It's not that I think breaking into it will be easier, I just known the demographic of who will be attempting the task.

Crow bar is the most likely tool, possibly surpassed by aluminum bat, followed by screwdriver. This subset demographic doesn't own any vehicles with working winches. However, wire that's way too fragile and Ram trucks will definitely be in the mix.

[BurntEyes 5958]

7 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

As others have stated, I sincerely doubt a mass shooter would be dumb enough to buy ammo from a Kroger's.  I was merely inquiring as to logistics, security of the device, re-stock vulnerability, and how it could be used for straw-man purposes despite it needing an ID and face.  I don't think any responsible owner is gonna abuse the availability of the inventory.  It's those circling around on the periphery that can cause the most trouble.  

You're truly over thinking this one man.

[Nivek 16917]

16-year-old me doesn't have an opinion on the machines, but does wonder what would happen if you caught one on fire.

Nothing really. A bullet ignited that way would not penetrate drywall. Might annoy you if you got hit, especially in the eyes/nether regions.

[Nivek 16917]

What’s different?  It ain’t a quarter operated coke machine.
Lots of wasted words creating irrelevant scenarios.  It’s a different interface - same or even higher scrutiny and data capture than face to face cash at counter.  May be dumb but isn’t a game charger for the criminal element.  
But don’t let reality get in the way of outrage….

When a customer approaches the vending machine, they must agree to terms on the screen, select their desired type of bullets, insert an identification card and participate in a facial scan.

Customers have to be 21 years of age or older to purchase bullets from American Rounds’ vending machines. After the facial recognition is confirmed, a customer can swipe or insert their credit or debit card and then wait for their ammunition to be dispensed.

Yeah, machines always work, don’t have loopholes, and companies never overstate their effectiveness.

Remember when a few Marines outsmarted the most advanced DARPA AI? https://www.businessinsider.com/marines-fooled-darpa-robot-hiding-in-box-doing-somersaults-book-2023-1

I am sure no one could show a mannequin head or face mask and fool it.

[royiv 9247]

I hate having to (sort of) agree with the gun nuts on this one. The actual mechanics are probably more secure or, at least, more standardized than some dude at Academy selling you ammo. To me it’s just a commentary on this country’s stupid gun culture that we feel the need to sell ammo in a vending machine in a grocery store.

 

[TwiceHorn 31438]

It would make sense at the "bait shop" or last convenience store on the highway on the way out to the lake.

The grocery store in the burbs or the middle of town is just emblematic of dumb gun culture.  And I'm sure they'll be charging premium prices for your lack of planning or desperation for ammo.

[CHIEF 5075]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

It would make sense at the "bait shop" or last convenience store on the highway on the way out to the lake.

The grocery store in the burbs or the middle of town is just emblematic of dumb gun culture.  And I'm sure they'll be charging premium prices for your lack of planning or desperation for ammo.

This is what it is going to be. These machines will be too unprofitable to be on every street corner, like the Austin electric scooter fiasco. The vendors won't be able to beat the large retailers on pricing, in populated areas. They have a couple of thousand dollars in ammo sitting in there, and selling ten boxes per year, the numbers won't work.

These are gonna be in small towns where the closest gun store is an hour away, closed, and its 2am and you just ran out of ammo from hunting hogs on Saturday night. Its not nefarious, especially if you have been there before.

CHIEF

[Francisco 2.0 32386]

5 hours ago, CHIEF said:

This is what it is going to be. These machines will be too unprofitable to be on every street corner, like the Austin electric scooter fiasco. The vendors won't be able to beat the large retailers on pricing, in populated areas. They have a couple of thousand dollars in ammo sitting in there, and selling ten boxes per year, the numbers won't work.

These are gonna be in small towns where the closest gun store is an hour away, closed, and its 2am and you just ran out of ammo from hunting hogs on Saturday night. Its not nefarious, especially if you have been there before.

CHIEF

 

Paging Vic.

 

 

[Bevo 13563]

There used to be cigarette vending machines. This type of system may work great for that business.

[Reagan1k 3024]

These are two different discussions being cobbled together.

1) is it a good business model?  Maybe in a very limited, narrow market.  As @TwiceHorn said - bait shop, rural hardware store, some other appropriate place as a gimmick.  That’s discussion A

2) Is it going to be abused by criminal element?  
All these scenarios of mannequin heads and hackers seem to miss the key element- No one is stopping the criminal element from walking in and buying a box of shell manually anyway.  

Your scenarios are akin to hardening security around copper tubing sales to prevent Cletus from moonshining to get his booze fix.  He doesn’t need to build a still. He can walk next door and buy his bottle from Jacks liquor, or ask his brother to. Ammunition is not some rare, guarded commodity requiring a Dirty Dirty Dozen or Oceans 11 plot to acquire. You’re over complicating this.

Do you see organized crime syndicates devising ways to help 17 year olds get lottery tickets from the machines in grocery stores?  No - not necessary- just buy them or send someone to buy face to face.

 

[closetohumping 17433]

7 hours ago, CHIEF said:

This is what it is going to be. These machines will be too unprofitable to be on every street corner, like the Austin electric scooter fiasco. The vendors won't be able to beat the large retailers on pricing, in populated areas. They have a couple of thousand dollars in ammo sitting in there, and selling ten boxes per year, the numbers won't work.

These are gonna be in small towns where the closest gun store is an hour away, closed, and its 2am and you just ran out of ammo from hunting hogs on Saturday night. Its not nefarious, especially if you have been there before.

CHIEF

Yea agree. Not necessarily nefarious but to me it’s just a #merica flex.  Do we really need it next to the lotto machine.  

[elfenix 34223]

This was on Texas standard last week.

Seems like the facial recognition is just matching with what's on the DL. Wonder how good a fake DL has to be in order to get around that?

https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/texas-ammunition-vending-machine-canyon-lake-lowes-market/

 

 

[Nivek 16917]

These are two different discussions being cobbled together.
1) is it a good business model?  Maybe in a very limited, narrow market.  As [mention=248]TwiceHorn[/mention] said - bait shop, rural hardware store, some other appropriate place as a gimmick.  That’s discussion A
2) Is it going to be abused by criminal element?  
All these scenarios of mannequin heads and hackers seem to miss the key element- No one is stopping the criminal element from walking in and buying a box of shell manually anyway.  
Your scenarios are akin to hardening security around copper tubing sales to prevent Cletus from moonshining to get his booze fix.  He doesn’t need to build a still. He can walk next door and buy his bottle from Jacks liquor, or ask his brother to. Ammunition is not some rare, guarded commodity requiring a Dirty Dirty Dozen or Oceans 11 plot to acquire. You’re over complicating this.
Do you see organized crime syndicates devising ways to help 17 year olds get lottery tickets from the machines in grocery stores?  No - not necessary- just buy them or send someone to buy face to face.
 

It isn’t just criminals, but children. But I guess we have already established we don’t give a shit about them as a society.

[YGIFS 19449]

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

This was on Texas standard last week.

Seems like the facial recognition is just matching with what's on the DL. Wonder how good a fake DL has to be in order to get around that?

https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/texas-ammunition-vending-machine-canyon-lake-lowes-market/

 

 

Good enough the kid can get the ammo, and then walk back in and use same ID to purchase a couple cases of beer.

What? I never used a fake ID in a grocery store and I resent the implication.  

TXDL's are pretty damn fancy now with all the laser etched (whatever you call it) details.  I think these types of machines would be hard to fool.  

Yeah, I like the "Last Stop for Bait, Supplies, 'n Ammo" that TwiceHorn suggested.  That's where this is likely headed.  What's the footprint of one of these things.  By the photos, it looks about 3x3x6, maybe?  

[TwiceHorn 31438]

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

This was on Texas standard last week.

Seems like the facial recognition is just matching with what's on the DL. Wonder how good a fake DL has to be in order to get around that?

https://www.texasstandard.org/stories/texas-ammunition-vending-machine-canyon-lake-lowes-market/

 

 

I'm guessing it might require a "Real ID" and whatever bar codes or secret shit they have on them.  So, they're intended to be hard to fake at that level, if not the "carded at the bar/store" level.

[BurntEyes 5958]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm guessing it might require a "Real ID" and whatever bar codes or secret shit they have on them.  So, they're intended to be hard to fake at that level, if not the "carded at the bar/store" level.

When a customer approaches the vending machine, they must agree to terms on the screen, select their desired type of bullets, insert an identification card and participate in a facial scan.

 

Customers have to be 21 years of age or older to purchase bullets from American Rounds’ vending machines. After the facial recognition is confirmed, a customer can swipe or insert their credit or debit card and then wait for their ammunition to be dispensed.

[RPM 26315]

I'm sure the ammo is discount priced as well.

[Hamttx 419]

I don’t have a problem with it, I’m just not sure I fully understand it? It’s like a solution that is looking for a problem. 

[B00M 6413]

1 hour ago, Hamttx said:

I don’t have a problem with it, I’m just not sure I fully understand it? It’s like a solution that is looking for a problem. 

Yeah, it feels like Carvana’s car vending machine. Neat. But why? 

[YGIFS 19449]

11 hours ago, B00M said:

Yeah, it feels like Carvana’s car vending machine. Neat. But why? 

^

Yeah, that is one I do not get.  Wife went in there to sell our old third car.  Got the bid, which was under the one from her old dealership.  So to make her stick around, he offers her the giant coin thing and says, "Could be your lucky day.  With this coin, from our current inventory...I can offer an additional $1000 in savings if you use the coin today."  We later found out people pay like $20 online to buy those coins to collect.  So she leaves.  You need a garage to look at the cars and a small meeting room, that's it.  Meanwhile, they're sitting on a $2mm piece of land with a $2mm vending machine on it.  If I like your deal, here's my title, and have my new car driven to my house tomorrow  from your far more economical real estate plot in far East Austin.  Saves us both a lotta money.  

I think the rural "last stop for supplies" idea will be the best use of the Ammo Machine.  But think about some of those places we all stop at to fish, boat, hunt, camp, etc.  they're not exactly bucc-ees or HEB.  Every little square foot has to generate revenue for mom 'n pop to make ends meet.  Those blue lottery podiums, an off-brand ATM, the soda fountain, dvd rental box, ice locker, etc.  Everything has to generate a certain revenue stream for its size.  These things have an awfully big footprint that may make it hard to sway the owners to put one on premise.  But then again, every bait shop  I've ever been to still has room for a twirling rack of worthless beanie babies, so who knows?  

[CHIEF 5075]

7 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

^

Yeah, that is one I do not get.  Wife went in there to sell our old third car.  Got the bid, which was under the one from her old dealership.  So to make her stick around, he offers her the giant coin thing and says, "Could be your lucky day.  With this coin, from our current inventory...I can offer an additional $1000 in savings if you use the coin today."  We later found out people pay like $20 online to buy those coins to collect.  So she leaves.  You need a garage to look at the cars and a small meeting room, that's it.  Meanwhile, they're sitting on a $2mm piece of land with a $2mm vending machine on it.  If I like your deal, here's my title, and have my new car driven to my house tomorrow  from your far more economical real estate plot in far East Austin.  Saves us both a lotta money.  

I think the rural "last stop for supplies" idea will be the best use of the Ammo Machine.  But think about some of those places we all stop at to fish, boat, hunt, camp, etc.  they're not exactly bucc-ees or HEB.  Every little square foot has to generate revenue for mom 'n pop to make ends meet.  Those blue lottery podiums, an off-brand ATM, the soda fountain, dvd rental box, ice locker, etc.  Everything has to generate a certain revenue stream for its size.  These things have an awfully big footprint that may make it hard to sway the owners to put one on premise.  But then again, every bait shop  I've ever been to still has room for a twirling rack of worthless beanie babies, so who knows?  

If they were franchised, I would put one at the Ranchland convenience store in Benjamin, Texas. It's on the edge of the Earth, and open 24/7. I would venture to say that you could get a spot to put the vending machine for free, or almost free. The folks stopping to get ammo aren't just getting ammo, they are buying 35 gallons of diesel, $60 worth of beef jerky, two cases of beer, four bags of ice, four pulled pork sandwiches, and two orders of chicken strips. Ranchland is the only convenience store in the whole town. I know of at least 30-40 more towns just like Benjamin that you could get some space for next to nothing because of the additional revenue it would generate.

CHIEF

 

 

[BurntEyes 5958]

18 hours ago, CHIEF said:

If they were franchised, I would put one at the Ranchland convenience store in Benjamin, Texas. It's on the edge of the Earth, and open 24/7. I would venture to say that you could get a spot to put the vending machine for free, or almost free. The folks stopping to get ammo aren't just getting ammo, they are buying 35 gallons of diesel, $60 worth of beef jerky, two cases of beer, four bags of ice, four pulled pork sandwiches, and two orders of chicken strips. Ranchland is the only convenience store in the whole town. I know of at least 30-40 more towns just like Benjamin that you could get some space for next to nothing because of the additional revenue it would generate.

CHIEF

 

 

Yeah, I think in a very niche play it has value. 

During deer season running a rotation of 308, 243, 30-30, perhaps some 5.56 and 1 or 2 others 300 blk out?, with a Barnes bullet and quality powder and casing? 24/7 

You could make a hefty margin. It would be niche and cyclical but very profitable in those specific environments. Environments, which, aren't exactly inviting to outside rogue actors. 

[Reagan1k 3024]

Both the Lowes grocery store and Buttery Hardware in Llano sell ammunition already.  Seems reasonable for placement.  Central Market on Westheimer - not so much. 

[TexPx 2322]

I suspect it'll be exactly one school shooting linked to these ammo vending machines in grocery stores before they're pulled

No. If that happens Abbott will require them to be installed in all school cafeterias.

[YGIFS 19449]

5 hours ago, BurntEyes said:

Yeah, I think in a very niche play it has value. 

During deer season running a rotation of 308, 243, 30-30, perhaps some 5.56 and 1 or 2 others 300 blk out?, with a Barnes bullet and quality powder and casing? 24/7 

You could make a hefty margin. It would be niche and cyclical but very profitable in those specific environments. Environments, which, aren't exactly inviting to outside rogue actors. 

The 'seasonal' rotation makes sense, I'm sure they've thought of that.  There's always some lesser game in season year around.  But for a few months here and there, it's gonna be low-volume footprint.  I wonder if there's something(s) else you could use say 25% of the inside for, to sell for camping or fishing.  I dunno what, but I would assume those things are pretty modular inside.  If you can shift around ammo types and quantities, you can probably make room, again during really slow hunting seasons, for something like a multi-tool, spool of fishing line, etc.  Those little things we forget to grab on the way out the door.  Obviously you can keep those out on the shelves, but some tools and lures 'n shit can be too easy to steal, this solves for that.  Or, maybe porn?  

[TwiceHorn 31438]

Yeah, the seasonal rotation makes sense in machines near hunting areas.

But for the grocery stores, it's gonna be 100% 9mm and .223, probably the cheapest shit you can find, and marked up excessively.  Plenty of hollow point, though.

[CHIEF 5075]

Depending on how many options there are, hell, old cigarette machines probably had 30 selections, you could probably handle all of the popular loads during deer season. This isn't going to be the place where it is the primary place you buy ammo. This is where you buy ammo when you are "over a barrel", one or two boxes at most, more than likely just one box. .22-250, .223, .243, .270, 7mag, .308, and .300mag, all common rounds, will cover about 90% of hunters. It might not be their primary carry, but they have them for a backup. I always have a .243 left in the trailer, if necessary. For pistol, 9mm and .45 would probably be the rounds to stock. In offseason its all 5.56, .300blk, and .308, keep the same pistol rounds. Maybe stock some .22LR, but that is so cheap, people keep bricks of it at home.

CHIEF

[fattyflattie 4639]

6 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I always have a .243 left in the trailer, if necessary.

I do the same thing. I keep a few loosies in the blind just in case. But always have a load of ammo in the camp house starting with shells during dove season and it grows through the season. I never head down there without some, though.  Assuming these machines won’t have most of what I shoot anyhow

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4975]

43 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Depending on how many options there are, hell, old cigarette machines probably had 30 selections, you could probably handle all of the popular loads during deer season. This isn't going to be the place where it is the primary place you buy ammo. This is where you buy ammo when you are "over a barrel", one or two boxes at most, more than likely just one box. .22-250, .223, .243, .270, 7mag, .308, and .300mag, all common rounds, will cover about 90% of hunters. It might not be their primary carry, but they have them for a backup. I always have a .243 left in the trailer, if necessary. For pistol, 9mm and .45 would probably be the rounds to stock. In offseason its all 5.56, .300blk, and .308, keep the same pistol rounds. Maybe stock some .22LR, but that is so cheap, people keep bricks of it at home.

CHIEF

Yeah. I'd put one in places like D'Hanis or Broaddus. .30-06 for sure though. 300 BLK for East Texas, though. .30-30 too. 

[CHIEF 5075]

8 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Yeah. I'd put one in places like D'Hanis or Broaddus. .30-06 for sure though. 300 BLK for East Texas, though. .30-30 too. 

Yep, .30-06 for sure, everywhere. 30-30 for East Texas.

This isn't about giving easy access to ammo for thugs, this is about keeping a lack of ammo from ruining someone's hunting trip. Who hasn't been on a hunting trip, took a shot and realized your scope got knocked off. I've done it, and it took a half box of shells to get it back to sub-MOA. A box of shells that had lasted me for 3-4 years. I fired three shots per year, one to make sure it was on, and the next two were for the two deer I decided to shoot. One time, I got it as close as I dared, and kept the last shell I had for a morning hunt. I then had to drive over 100 miles to Wichita Falls to buy more ammo. 

CHIEF

Edited July 27 by CHIEF

[BurntEyes 5958]

37 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I do the same thing. I keep a few loosies in the blind just in case. But always have a load of ammo in the camp house starting with shells during dove season and it grows through the season. I never head down there without some, though.  Assuming these machines won’t have most of what I shoot anyhow

Well that's the thing, you put the titter surcharge on it, carry some top of the line hunting, cheap hunting in the 223/308,  the "stopping power" pistol flavor of the month premium in 9 and 45, and cheapest lrn in the same. You probably end up making more margin off the cheap stuff cause it ain't gonna be the better prepared folks buying typically. If it is, they know their fucked, and will buy the "top shelf" selections. On the less common rounds charge an even higher premium. Then you can switch to the 12/20 variants for dove or whatever bird season on premium hunting as that shits hard to find in the big box sporting stores. Keep the pistol stocked and monitor to the market.

Again, it's niche for sure, but it has a place where it could make money.

[BurntEyes 5958]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, the seasonal rotation makes sense in machines near hunting areas.

But for the grocery stores, it's gonna be 100% 9mm and .223, probably the cheapest shit you can find, and marked up excessively.  Plenty of hollow point, though.

I would not put one in the grocery store. In the smaller towns they keep about the same hours as the places you can buy ammo. Even if you do, a mixed bag of "premium" and cheap shit is the way to go. Everyone likes a bargain and the expensive stuff reduces the sticker shock of the premium.

I think the only exception to the "grocery store" is the really small towns that have only the dollar general and few if any gun shops. 

Edited July 27 by BurntEyes