[Harris+Walz] The 2024 DNC: TURN DOWN FOR WHAT?!

[Gil Bang 26174]

Sorry to burst your bubble...he's nowhere near a "great dad to his kids".   He shows up, but that's about it.  

 

[WelfareBuysMyWeed 5656]

1 minute ago, Gil Bang said:

Sorry to burst your bubble...he's nowhere near a "great dad to his kids".   He shows up, but that's about it.  

 

a great dad doesn't mean he's a good person. All being a great dad means is he's deeply involved in his kids life. Don't read more into it.

[Gil Bang 26174]

11 minutes ago, WelfareBuysMyWeed said:

a great dad doesn't mean he's a good person. All being a great dad means is he's deeply involved in his kids life. Don't read more into it.

We disagree.  A great dad raises great kids who are independent thinkers.  This mofo is a "present" dad, but that doesn't make him any part of great.  He's fucking Ned Flanders.

[linux 1759]

Nick Saban is a good  friend of Manchin, he would indeed be a viable AL Senator if he can be convinced to run, and unlike Aldred it is logical to try "both parties are bad" in Alabama, like in West Virginia.

The only problem is that he enjoys being universally loved, I don't think he has it in him to be loathed but almost 50% of the state.

[NWBuck 8619]

Let's not lose the message here... 

He also hates the Sooners 

[High Plains Drifter 11159]

13 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

If he's watching, Trump is absolutely shitting his diapers right now. 

 

 

He's shitting his diapers even if he's not watching. 

 

 

[BurntOrange&White 41635]

Democrats should lean into the Tampon Tim "insult" and campaign as "that's because he'll stop the red wave."

[That Guy 1008]

4 hours ago, Gil Bang said:

He's fucking Ned Flanders.

Todd and Rod told me to tell you to get fucked.

[Thatguy 9285]

6 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Todd and Rod told me to tell you to get fucked.

Who the fuck is this guy????

[WelfareBuysMyWeed 5656]

2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Who the fuck is this guy????

that guy, not this guy.

[WhatTheBuck 28904]

9 hours ago, Blotto said:

And yet when you look at his voting record graphed Liberal<-->Conservative, he was further to the center than most of his democratic colleagues in his time in the house.  And nobody give a flying fuck what "they" are going to call him. "they" call every single politician  with a D by their  name  a  socialist. 

I’m talking about his current policies. Policies he’s passed as Governor, his job right now. That’s who he is right now, not the guy who represented a conservative district in Congress pre-pandemic. I haven’t looked at that record. Right now he’s no moderate.

And yeah, I figured I’d get that response about him being labeled a socialist. But in this case they’ve got a bit of a leg to stand on. Bernie Sanders is a self-avowed socialist. (I assume I don’t have to explain the difference between democratic socialism and Marxist socialism here.) When Donald Trump says that Walz is like Bernie Sanders only not as smart, I’m sure the “not as smart” part is his own invention. He likes to call anyone who opposes him dumb. But he doesn’t know the first thing about political ideology or the political spectrum and hasn’t personally researched the policies of literally anyone. I’m sure he got the comparison to Bernie Sanders from his political advisers and it’s a fair comparison when you look at Tim’s legislative achievements as Governor of Minnesota. He’s a progressive whose policies appeal to the more liberal wing of the Democratic Party.

[BurntOrange&White 41635]

2 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I’m talking about his current policies. Policies he’s passed as Governor, his job right now. That’s who he is right now, not the guy who represented a conservative district in Congress pre-pandemic. I haven’t looked at that record. Right now he’s no moderate.

And yeah, I figured I’d get that response about him being labeled a socialist. But in this case they’ve got a bit of a leg to stand on. Bernie Sanders is a self-avowed socialist. (I assume I don’t have to explain the difference between democratic socialism and Marxist socialism here.) When Donald Trump says that Walz is like Bernie Sanders only not as smart, I’m sure the “not as smart” part is his own invention. He likes to call anyone who opposes him dumb. But he doesn’t know the first thing about political ideology or the political spectrum and hasn’t personally researched the policies of literally anyone. I’m sure he got the comparison to Bernie Sanders from his political advisers and it’s a fair comparison when you look at Tim’s legislative achievements as Governor of Minnesota. He’s a progressive whose policies appeal to the more liberal wing of the Democratic Party.

Did you know that since X date aggie is X-X vs Texas? That's what you sound like....using subjective criteria to try and push a point.

[pantone159 727]

13 hours ago, Red Five said:

"Mind your own damn business" is so good. I can remember a time when that would have been a republican talking point. 

The first circulating coin of the US was the 'Fugio cent', partially designed by Ben Franklin. It includes the motto 'Mind Your Business'.

 

[Sawbonz 28078]

2 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Who the fuck is this guy????

[Brisketexan 106607]

9 hours ago, chainsaw said:

I think a lot of Boomers and Gen X are not used to seeing Democrats run on policies that poll well. We've become way too accustomed to Democrats negotiating against themselves, compromising for its own sake, and generally campaigning in abject fear of being called socialists. Way too used to Democrats advised by people with PTSD from the Kerry campaign.

That shit set us back so many decades compared to the social programs they have in every other industrialized country. Fucking infuriating, doubly so when asking for simply a fraction of that somehow makes you a fringe Marxist.

Believing that we live in a society doesn't make one a socialist.  Believing that we live in an amazing community doesn't make you a communist.  It makes you an AMERICAN.  Since our birth as a nation, we have come TOGETHER as a people to make this a great nation.  From the revolution to putting a man on the moon, and everything in between.

Democrats and Dem policies aren't socialist.  They are American policies.  By Americans. For Americans.  To keep America great.

9 hours ago, mdmost said:

This is bang on fucking accurate. I miss my father very much but I’m so glad he passed away in 2015 before he fully fell down the Fox News Trump rabbit hole. The old him before Obama would’ve loved a guy like Walz. These were the values my dad once espoused. That’s the dad I want to remember him as.

 

 

Fucking heartbreakingly true.  And I too am SO glad that my 80+ year old dad never went down that hole.  Grew up reasonably Republican.  But also grew up with values and intelligence.  He saw what the party was becoming when it turned to birtherism.  He's still retrograde in some respects (again, he's 80+)....but he HATES Trumpism and the GQP and what it's done to our country.  He's a patriot.

[bluto 4979]

6 hours ago, linux said:

Nick Saban is a good  friend of Manchin, he would indeed be a viable AL Senator if he can be convinced to run, and unlike Aldred it is logical to try "both parties are bad" in Alabama, like in West Virginia.

The only problem is that he enjoys being universally loved, I don't think he has it in him to be loathed but almost 50% of the state.

Shit at least 40% (auburn) already hate him, what’s another 5-10% 

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

How exactly is Bernie radical or supposed to be an insult anyways?

Healthcare for poor or sick people, free public college so 21 year old kids aren't saddled with crippling debt right off the bat, more food for poor kids. Taking care of the least fortunate. 

Sounds pretty cool to me! Fire department. So socialist. 

[Aqua Buddha 14781]

2 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

How exactly is Bernie radical or supposed to be an insult anyways?

Healthcare for poor or sick people, free public college so 21 year old kids aren't saddled with crippling debt right off the bat, more food for poor kids. Taking care of the least fortunate. 

Sounds pretty cool to me! Fire department. So socialist. 

The Republicans all scream "LIBERAL!!!!" but if you look at the actual issues, they're within the mainstream or favor Democrats.

If the Democratic Party just dissolved and ran as a list of ballot initiatives, they'd win everything they ever wanted.

[Party_Taco 3881]

Oh to be a writer for this campaign with Walz aboard…

“If I went out to the lake 12 times in a year, I’m sure my friends think ‘boy, he loves to fish’…

Donald trump visited Jefferey Epstein’s island 200 times in a decade… I wonder what he loves to do?!”

[Thatguy 9285]

55 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I’m talking about his current policies. Policies he’s passed as Governor, his job right now. That’s who he is right now, not the guy who represented a conservative district in Congress pre-pandemic. I haven’t looked at that record. Right now he’s no moderate.

And yeah, I figured I’d get that response about him being labeled a socialist. But in this case they’ve got a bit of a leg to stand on. Bernie Sanders is a self-avowed socialist. (I assume I don’t have to explain the difference between democratic socialism and Marxist socialism here.) When Donald Trump says that Walz is like Bernie Sanders only not as smart, I’m sure the “not as smart” part is his own invention. He likes to call anyone who opposes him dumb. But he doesn’t know the first thing about political ideology or the political spectrum and hasn’t personally researched the policies of literally anyone. I’m sure he got the comparison to Bernie Sanders from his political advisers and it’s a fair comparison when you look at Tim’s legislative achievements as Governor of Minnesota. He’s a progressive whose policies appeal to the more liberal wing of the Democratic Party.

Man, I feel like this is way off base. He is slightly left of center. It's just the right is so so far right that any social policies seem like communism. School lunches used to be a thing. Mental institutions used to be a thing. GI Bill used to be a thing. I can keep going but you know what I am getting at. So many things that were just part of the fabric of the US for decades on both sides of the aisle and now all the sudden they are progressive policies. Basic. Human. Needs.

[immamac 44197]

1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

Man, I feel like this is way off base. He is slightly left of center. It's just the right is so so far right that any social policies seem like communism. School lunches used to be a thing. Mental institutions used to be a thing. GI Bill used to be a thing. I can keep going but you know what I am getting at. So many things that were just part of the fabric of the US for decades on both sides of the aisle and now all the sudden they are progressive policies. Basic. Human. Needs.

They aren't progressive. They are moderate policies. They are completely functional and based on clear evidentiary need. They aren't throwing away old policy or resetting anything. 

Progressivism has a large major reform component to it. None of these policies are sweeping reform. 

[Captainant 28374]

4 minutes ago, immamac said:

They aren't progressive. They are moderate policies. They are completely functional and based on clear evidentiary need. They aren't throwing away old policy or resetting anything. 

Progressivism has a large major reform component to it. None of these policies are sweeping reform. 

I think you're getting twisted around the axel on academic labels and definitions, and ignoring the context of our current situation. America has regressed. Policies that are, as you point out, pretty moderate and mainstream ARE progress and meaningful reform from our current state.

[wildcat09 29554]

You guys are all arguing around the fact that the “center” is actually a completely mythical thing. Most Americans aren’t super politically engaged or ideologically constrained and your average American has some views on some issues that many would reasonably consider very liberal while has views on other issues that many would reasonably consider pretty conservative. The average American’s views on many issues are also much more malleable than people tend to think and depend in large part in how an issue is presented and what those they’re close to think about it.
 

It’s not a simple line from left to right and even calling it a spectrum is implying more coherence than is really there for many people. Walz as governor has championed what pretty much anyone involved in American politics for the last forty years would say is a very progressive agenda. But those policies are popular and it’s not hard to get people who don’t see themselves as progressive to support them, if you don’t run from them because you think you have to triangulate and adopt a bunch of unpopular conservative positions to show how you’re actually a moderate.

[Thatguy 9285]

8 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I think you're getting twisted around the axel on academic labels and definitions, and ignoring the context of our current situation. America has regressed. Policies that are, as you point out, pretty moderate and mainstream ARE progress and meaningful reform from our current state.

 

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

You guys are all arguing around the fact that the “center” is actually a completely mythical thing. Most Americans aren’t super politically engaged or ideologically constrained and your average American has some views on some issues that many would reasonably consider very liberal while has views on other issues that many would reasonably consider pretty conservative. The average American’s views on many issues are also much more malleable than people tend to think and depend in large part in how an issue is presented and what those they’re close to think about it.
 

It’s not a simple line from left to right and even calling it a spectrum is implying more coherence than is really there for many people. Walz as governor has championed what pretty much anyone involved in American politics for the last forty years would say is a very progressive agenda. But those policies are popular and it’s not hard to get people who don’t see themselves as progressive to support them, if you don’t run from them because you think you have to triangulate and adopt a bunch of unpopular conservative positions to show how you’re actually a moderate.

Man, @Captainant is right. We have regressed. After years of middle class growth we have stripped ourselves backwards into another Gilded Age. Policies and programs that we had all my life are now gone. In that regression what used to be normal shit everyone could agree on is now touted as "progressive".

[WelfareBuysMyWeed 5656]

36 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

How exactly is Bernie radical or supposed to be an insult anyways?

When I was a kid, radical was a compliment!

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 34078]

35 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

The Republicans all scream "LIBERAL!!!!" but if you look at the actual issues, they're within the mainstream or favor Democrats.

If the Democratic Party just dissolved and ran as a list of ballot initiatives, they'd win everything they ever wanted.

I've long said this country would be better off without parties and to just run on issues. the second you slap a label on things is when people start to try to define you or box you in. go with the candidate most aligned with your views. it's really that simple, regardless of R or D. Except right now if the R's did what is described above no one would ever vote for them again.

[wildcat09 29554]

1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

 

Man, @Captainant is right. We have regressed. After years of middle class growth we have stripped ourselves backwards into another Gilded Age. Policies and programs that we had all my life are now gone. In that regression what used to be normal shit everyone could agree on is now touted as "progressive".

And there was a time in our history where policies like free school lunch WERE actually new and very progressive. Hell, there was a time in our history where public education was new and very progressive. People quite literally fought and died to have a weekend.  The whole idea about what is "moderate" or in the "center" isn't actually about any specific policies at all but about how most people want to view themselves. Most people aren't comfortable thinking of themselves as part of an extreme and so they don't want to support ideas that people around them who they like and respect think are extreme.

The right built up such a big right-wing propaganda machine that they managed to convince millions of people that feeding kids at school is dangerous extremism.  Tons of communities now believe that because it's what the people they trust on TV say and what their friends and family and neighbors say. But that's actually a very easy bubble to pierce and you do it like Walz has: when challenged on it you stand firm and say something like "what a monster, kids got food and now can learn!" It's easy to show there's not some great harm in feeding kids, and it's not like it's too fucking expensive.  There are all sorts of other issues like this too that the Dems should be more aggressively championing instead of running away from, but the prior generation of Democratic leadership was too traumatized from coming up under Reaganism too know how to fight.

[WelfareBuysMyWeed 5656]

Just now, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

I've long said this country would be better off without parties and to just run on issues. the second you slap a label on things is when people start to try to define you or box you in. go with the candidate most aligned with your views. it's really that simple, regardless of R or D. Except right now if the R's did what is described above no one would ever vote for them again.

alternatively, just get rid of lobbyists and that stupid idea that a corporation is a person which can donate to a political party. In fact, cap the total income of any politician at the poverty limit while holding office. Force them to live off of government programs just like any other poor person. That'll remove incentive for those looking to line pockets to get into politics, and force those who make laws and regulations to live under them.

[Thatguy 9285]

1 minute ago, WelfareBuysMyWeed said:

alternatively, just get rid of lobbyists and that stupid idea that a corporation is a person which can donate to a political party. In fact, cap the total income of any politician at the poverty limit while holding office. Force them to live off of government programs just like any other poor person. That'll remove incentive for those looking to line pockets to get into politics, and force those who make laws and regulations to live under them.

Make it illegal for politicians to play in markets or investments. No monetary gain. No motivation to pass policy beneficial to corporations.

[wildcat09 29554]

Just now, WelfareBuysMyWeed said:

alternatively, just get rid of lobbyists and that stupid idea that a corporation is a person which can donate to a political party. In fact, cap the total income of any politician at the poverty limit while holding office. Force them to live off of government programs just like any other poor person. That'll remove incentive for those looking to line pockets to get into politics, and force those who make laws and regulations to live under them.

Actually, that'd make them more likely to take bribes.

One of the (very many) problems we have is that being an elected representative is actually not a good way to get ahead for yourself and your family in American society. Hell these days if you're a decent person but you've got some student debt and a mortgage for a house actually IN a major city you NEED a higher paying job than House rep. Because it doesn't actually pay all that well, most of the people running for elected office are those who just do it for attention and/or those who do it so they can sell their votes. 

Shit, look at what being a Texas legislator pays and try telling me with a straight face that we're doing it right here in Texas. We get what we pay for. 

[WelfareBuysMyWeed 5656]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Actually, that'd make them more likely to take bribes.

And when they're living like rich assholes on their poverty income, sic the IRS on their ass and gut their ledger like a fish before send them to prison.

[softlynow 1893]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Actually, that'd make them more likely to take bribes.

One of the (very many) problems we have is that being an elected representative is actually not a good way to get ahead for yourself and your family in American society. Hell these days if you're a decent person but you've got some student debt and a mortgage for a house actually IN a major city you NEED a higher paying job than House rep. Because it doesn't actually pay all that well, most of the people running for elected office are those who just do it for attention and/or those who do it so they can sell their votes. 

Shit, look at what being a Texas legislator pays and try telling me with a straight face that we're doing it right here in Texas. We get what we pay for. 

After Snyder v. U.S. it's quite clear that one party sees government service as little more than a way to a comfortable life. We need a constitutional amendment that declares money to not be speech, campaign finance structure that favors candidates that bank many small donations rather than a few large ones, and a robust anti-corruption program including an independent, non-partisan anti-corruption prosecutor and strict laws on elected officials receiving any kind of quid pro quo other than for services rendered outside of their public service (they can still write books, lecture, etc.).

[chainsaw 10240]

I love Tim Walz because he puts to rest the fantasy that left-of-center policies are unpalatable to normal guys. He's the most normal guy to ever be normal.

[TexEx15 17910]

 

[Chuckie Finster 22978]

2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Man, I feel like this is way off base. He is slightly left of center. It's just the right is so so far right that any social policies seem like communism. School lunches used to be a thing. Mental institutions used to be a thing. GI Bill used to be a thing. I can keep going but you know what I am getting at. So many things that were just part of the fabric of the US for decades on both sides of the aisle and now all the sudden they are progressive policies. Basic. Human. Needs.

It's true that he supports a lot of policies that are currently associated with the "left."  It's also true that many of these policies are widely popular with the general public, until they get the "socialism" or whatever tag associated with them.  Walz' super power appears to be his ability to successfully appeal these to a mass audience without attaching the typical partisan labels to them.

[Thatguy 9285]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I love Tim Walz because he puts to rest the fantasy that left-of-center policies are unpalatable to normal guys. He's the most normal guy to ever be normal.

If you were to build a midwestern white man in a lab it would be Tim Walz.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34078]

2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

If you were to build a midwestern white man in a lab it would be Tim Walz.

pretty sure that's how you create the rona.

[M12BH 545]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Believing that we live in a society doesn't make one a socialist.  Believing that we live in an amazing community doesn't make you a communist.  It makes you an AMERICAN.  Since our birth as a nation, we have come TOGETHER as a people to make this a great nation.  From the revolution to putting a man on the moon, and everything in between.

Democrats and Dem policies aren't socialist.  They are American policies.  By Americans. For Americans.  To keep America great.

Fucking heartbreakingly true.  And I too am SO glad that my 80+ year old dad never went down that hole.  Grew up reasonably Republican.  But also grew up with values and intelligence.  He saw what the party was becoming when it turned to birtherism.  He's still retrograde in some respects (again, he's 80+)....but he HATES Trumpism and the GQP and what it's done to our country.  He's a patriot.

Popping in to say how freaking lucky I also am that neither of my parents went down the rabbit hole.  Like many of y'all, my dad was a staunch Republican most of his life.  He might have held his nose and voted for HW and W, but that was the end of it.  I guess it helped that we are a liberal Jewish family and Trump's naked bigotry and embrace of the neo-Nazis were on full display early.   My mom has dementia and can't remember a fucking thing, but she does remember she hates Trump.  She just can't remember why.  

[Js1 86914]

6 minutes ago, TexEx15 said:

 

Okay so we have proof now that Trump has:

• Donated to Kamala Harris for her AG run
• Appointed Walz to his Council of Governors

[High Plains Drifter 11159]

22 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Make it illegal for politicians to play in markets or investments. No monetary gain. No motivation to pass policy beneficial to corporations.

 

Also, make them pay for healthcare on the open market. 

 

 

21 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Actually, that'd make them more likely to take bribes.

One of the (very many) problems we have is that being an elected representative is actually not a good way to get ahead for yourself and your family in American society. Hell these days if you're a decent person but you've got some student debt and a mortgage for a house actually IN a major city you NEED a higher paying job than House rep. Because it doesn't actually pay all that well, most of the people running for elected office are those who just do it for attention and/or those who do it so they can sell their votes. 

Shit, look at what being a Texas legislator pays and try telling me with a straight face that we're doing it right here in Texas. We get what we pay for. 

 

Bolded is probably true. 

 

I would gladly pay congressmen more if that meant they weren't allowed to own stocks. 

 

[wildcat09 29554]

Hah, I was looking back for some old posts of mine where I'd made similar arguments about how the party should actually moderate when it needs to and I basically said they need to run people like Walz nearly two years ago even though I didn't know who he was: 

Quote

Dems need some moderate candidates to run in moderate districts. But "moderate" doesn't mean Republican-lite candidates that run against the Democratic party.  Find some people that embrace universal values and know that the path to winning is attacking Republicans for being weird freaks who hate the American people, not explaining why they're a nicer Republican and nothing like the rest of those horrible Dems.

I love it when I'm proven right. It's so awesome. 

[TexEx15 17910]

 

[Brisketexan 106607]

16 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It's true that he supports a lot of policies that are currently associated with the "left."  It's also true that many of these policies are widely popular with the general public, until they get the "socialism" or whatever tag associated with them.  Walz' super power appears to be his ability to successfully appeal these to a mass audience without attaching the typical partisan labels to them.

The rebuttal is short.

Believing in our society is not socialism.

Believing in the importance of community is not communism.

Being a good neighbor, and governing for ALL Americans to have a better future, is the essence of what it is to be an American.  It's patriotism.  Because we are American patriots, and we believe in the American people.  And we want a government by and for the American people.

10 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I love it when I'm proven right. It's so awesome. 

And rare, I presume.

[wildcat09 29554]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And rare, I presume.

That's why it's so awesome!

[Thatguy 9285]

19 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

If you were to build a midwestern white man in a lab it would be Tim Walz.

 

6 minutes ago, TexEx15 said:

 

Like I said.......In a lab!!

[Jiggy-Z 3506]

1 hour ago, Party_Taco said:

Oh to be a writer for this campaign with Walz aboard…

“If I went out to the lake 12 times in a year, I’m sure my friends think ‘boy, he loves to fish’…

Donald trump visited Jefferey Epstein’s island 200 times in a decade… I wonder what he loves to do?!”

Is that true? If so,  why not more attention on it?

[Blotto 23974]

20 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

Is that true? If so,  why not more attention on it?

because its not true

[Party_Taco 3881]

because its not true

Real number is 7 across 3 years, it seems - I was mostly using Trumpian hyper exaggeration to make a point.

[Blotto 23974]

13 minutes ago, Party_Taco said:

Real number is 7 across 3 years, it seems - I was mostly using Trumpian hyper exaggeration to make a point.

Not that I care about Trump, because he a complete bag of shit, but my recollection is that flights logs show Trump was on Epstein's plane for domestic flights, but there is no evidence he ever visited the island. No reason to propagate mistruths and alternative facts, if you're gonna bitch about it when the other side does it. He's enough of a shitbag to get buried with the stuff we know  is  true.

Quote

‘Multiple plane flights with Epstein’

Many prominent people, including former president Bill Clinton, flew on Epstein’s jet. Trump took at least seven flights with Epstein in the 1990s, according to flight logs released as evidence in the trial of Ghislaine Maxwell, an Epstein associate who is serving a 20-year prison sentence for helping him sexually abuse girls. Lieu claimed that “young girls were on board,” but no evidence of that has surfaced. The ages of passengers were not recorded in the logs.

Trump took flights between Palm Beach and New York City airports. A June 1994 flight lists some of the other passengers as Marla and Tiffany, an apparent reference to Trump’s then-wife, Marla Maples, and their infant daughter.

https://archive.ph/fR8Ga - recent article on the matter from Washington Post, spurred on by Ted Lieu's recent comments. 

Edited August 7 by Blotto

[Dahobbs 18181]

1 hour ago, TexEx15 said:

 

I know from an optics perspective that is good, but frankly it isn't great money management to not have any retirement investments outside of pensions.