[Special Moderation] Why I'm excited to vote Republican this cycle.

[Stros121 4]

1 hour ago, elfenix said:

📸?

 

[Stros121 4]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Blah blah blah, you sound like a communist who hates America and should leave, libtard!
There. That’s the “honest dialogue” we get from team MAGA. Saved everyone the trouble.

For someone who has very intelligent post most of the the time. You’re very vague and boring with your anti trump talking points. Is there anything trump has done that you agree with? What is the worst thing Trump has ever done as president?

 

[TwiceHorn 31440]

32 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

DEI is hard to understand in my line of work. You either bust your ass or you don’t work.

DEI is not affirmative action and affirmative action has been around since the 1960s and is going away.

DEI is an attempt to include, at school, at work, wherever, those who have historically been excluded.

And, the 51 officials didn't say conclusively that it was fake, they said it had all the earmarks of being fake.  No one knew whether it was fake or not until fairly recently, except maybe Hunter.  And, y'know, there's nothing actually incriminating of Joe anywhere on the laptop.  Never been proven.  Read it for yourself.

And go look at my post on tariffs.  You don't need an economist to figure that out.  When all the cheap shit at Walmart goes up 20%, your cost of living went up 20%, or more.

Edited October 24 by TwiceHorn

[wildcat09 29347]

13 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

 

tjhooker?

[bolverk 29656]

@Stros121 First off, thank you for your civility and participation.

I'd like to discuss your concerns regarding DEI. Before getting into the nitty-gritty, I'd like us to start with a common understanding of what we're discussing.

Can you please, in your own words, define DEI to the best of your ability and explain how it might affect you personally or your line of work in the construction industry?

 

[Satchel 6934]

Texas has outlawed DEI in a public education system that is not diverse, equitable or sufficiently inclusive. 

[aggie08 21492]

47 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

I would change my vote from R to D if the Republican Party removed a elected candidate from the top of the ticket, and replace them with a candidate who didn’t get any votes, and didn’t debate against viable competition. 

No, you wouldn't.

[Stros121 4]

3 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

No, you wouldn't.

I have no reason to lie to you. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Good post

In fairness to them- both parties share one big lie on the economy: that the president has a great deal of control. He does not. Through mostly soft power he can have some level of limited impact on growth on an intermediate basis, and can have a much more substantial and direct negative effect on prices and GDP (through tariffs and other punitive measures) and has almost no meaningful direct near-term impact on the labor economy or the cost of living. 
But obviously both parties pretend they do and maybe their operatives and officials actually believe they are doing more than nibbling at the margins. And of course the media reports it that way because outside of the business press none of them seem to understand even the basics. 
Anyway- TL;DR: it’s not really their fault. They think that because everyone acts like it’s true, in good times and bad.

To be fair, presidents don’t have a lot of influence on the upside, but they damned sure can effect a downside. 

[Brian Fantana 6681]

25 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

What is the worst thing Trump has ever done as president?

Trying to overthrow democracy comes to mind.

[TwiceHorn 31440]

52 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

I would change my vote from R to D if the Republican Party removed a elected candidate from the top of the ticket, and replace them with a candidate who didn’t get any votes, and didn’t debate against viable competition. 

Do you understand how political parties and primaries work?  The Democratic party can do whatever the fuck it wants, including just appointing a nominee.

Democrats don't mind, they're happy about it.  Why do you care what Democrats do if you aren't going to vote for one?

You are clearly informed only by right-wing media and pundits.

[aggie08 21492]

3 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

I have no reason to lie to you. 

So if Trump finally did something deemed bad enough--or showed even more dementia--for his party to ask him to step down tomorrow (hahaha), and he actually listened (hahahaha hahaha), that would be all it would take for you to vote for Kamala and DEI. You wouldn't vote for Vance?

Color me skeptical from the guy still bringing up Hunter Biden's laptop.

[TeeDubya 3362]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

 

In fairness, there are a lot of syllables….

[TwiceHorn 31440]

3 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

So if Trump finally did something deemed bad enough--or showed even more dementia--for his party to ask him to step down tomorrow (hahaha), and he actually listened (hahahaha hahaha), that would be all it would take for you to vote for Kamala and DEI. You wouldn't vote for Vance?

Color me skeptical from the guy still bringing up Hunter Biden's laptop.

Yes, let's talk some more about Hunter's laptop.  Gym Jordan and his pal Jimmy Cumface wasted millions of dollars in taxpayer money trying to show that the Hunter Biden laptop somehow implicated Joe in some "Biden crime family."  Abject failure.

All they wound up proving is that Hunter is a drug addict, has poor judgment, and a big dick.  We knew all but the last part.

[royiv 9265]

17 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

I have no reason to lie to you. 

Do you know how primary elections work, my friend? 

[Stros121 4]

19 minutes ago, bolverk said:

@Stros121 First off, thank you for your civility and participation.

I'd like to discuss your concerns regarding DEI. Before getting into the nitty-gritty, I'd like us to start with a common understanding of what we're discussing.

Can you please, in your own words, define DEI to the best of your ability and explain how it might affect you personally or your line of work in the construction industry?

 

DEI to me is similar to my child going to the University of Texas. Both my kids finished in the top 6%. 1 finished #5 out 750 and still didn’t get into UT nursing school. I’m sure there’s plenty that factors into this that I don’t know.

My family is on the Creek Indian rolls. My daughters never wanted to use their Native American status as  there race. We as a family didn’t want take from the natives who need the resources more than they do. So if they check the box they are in with a full ride.
 

Both my daughters are going to Texas State.

I will get to the business question tomorrow. 

[Goredho 17397]

3 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yes, let's talk some more about Hunter's laptop.  Gym Jordan and his pal Jimmy Cumface wasted millions of dollars in taxpayer money trying to show that the Hunter Biden laptop somehow implicated Joe in some "Biden crime family."  Abject failure.

All they wound up proving is that Hunter is a drug addict, has poor judgment, and a big dick.  We knew all but the last part.

Well, Trump let us know Jack Nicholson had a big dick without wasting tax payer money, so I guess that's something.

 

[royiv 9265]

2 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

DEI to me is similar to my child going to the University of Texas. Both my kids finished in the top 6%. 1 finished #5 out 750 and still didn’t get into UT nursing school. I’m sure there’s plenty that factors into this that I don’t know.

My family is on the Creek Indian rolls. My daughters never wanted to use their Native American status as  there race. We as a family didn’t want take from the natives who need the resources more than they do. So if they check the box they are in with a full ride.
 

Both my daughters are going to Texas State.

I will get to the business question tomorrow. 

Yeah, that fucking sucks big dick. And it has zero to do with DEI. That has to do with the state of Texas not investing in higher education. I share your anger on this particular topic and it’s misplaced. 

[Stros121 4]

41 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

DEI is not affirmative action and affirmative action has been around since the 1960s and is going away.

DEI is an attempt to include, at school, at work, wherever, those who have historically been excluded.

And, the 51 officials didn't say conclusively that it was fake, they said it had all the earmarks of being fake.  No one knew whether it was fake or not until fairly recently, except maybe Hunter.  And, y'know, there's nothing actually incriminating of Joe anywhere on the laptop.  Never been proven.  Read it for yourself.

And go look at my post on tariffs.  You don't need an economist to figure that out.  When all the cheap shit at Walmart goes up 20%, your cost of living went up 20%, or more.

Hey man, the FBI said the laptop and it contents were real in 2019. I think they had a hearing in June 2024. You might want to watch the Mark Z. Interview as well. Let’s just post facts please. That article is from 2020?

[aggie08 21492]

15 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Do you understand how political parties and primaries work?  The Democratic party can do whatever the fuck it wants, including just appointing a nominee.

Democrats don't mind, they're happy about it.  Why do you care what Democrats do if you aren't going to vote for one?

This one cracked me up. We all pretend that we want politicians who listen to their constituents and act accordingly and decisively. Their constituents, by an overwhelming majority, wanted a new nominee, and they (miraculously) made it happen in a completely unprecedented circumstance.

"But the DNC didn't follow the arbitrary nomination process that they themselves created!!!"

The ones that are still opposed to how it went down (Biden's immediate family, I guess?) aren't being forced to vote for her. Democracy still intact. 

[TwiceHorn 31440]

18 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

DEI to me is similar to my child going to the University of Texas. Both my kids finished in the top 6%. 1 finished #5 out 750 and still didn’t get into UT nursing school. I’m sure there’s plenty that factors into this that I don’t know.

My family is on the Creek Indian rolls. My daughters never wanted to use their Native American status as  there race. We as a family didn’t want take from the natives who need the resources more than they do. So if they check the box they are in with a full ride.
 

Both my daughters are going to Texas State.

I will get to the business question tomorrow. 

None of that was affected by DEI.  That's affirmative action, and it was banned, which is why there's a top X% rule.  And, your bit about Native American status is probably wrong, again because affirmative action in college admissions is banned and has been at UT for longer than most of the rest of the country.

Although you admit you don't understand the admission decision, you haven't stated what you think DEI is and you clearly do not understand it.

Nursing is one of the smallest undergraduate schools at UT, topped only, I believe, by Architecture.  Architecture has always been extremely competitive, before the 5% rule, due to its size and prestige.  I imagine the same applies to Nursing.

 

Edited October 24 by TwiceHorn

[Stros121 4]

48 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Do you understand how political parties and primaries work?  The Democratic party can do whatever the fuck it wants, including just appointing a nominee.

Democrats don't mind, they're happy about it.  Why do you care what Democrats do if you aren't going to vote for one?

You are clearly informed only by right-wing media and pundits.

Yes, and if the R’s did the same thing 6 or 7 months from the election. I would vote for D.

i would vote for a D Tulsi over a R Trump

i don’t handcuff myself to one party. I equally disapprove of both parties, and the path they have taken this country to.

 

 

[CTC2 2791]

4 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

Yes, and if the R’s did the same thing 6 or 7 months from the election. I would vote for D.

i would vote for a D Tulsi over a R Trump

i don’t handcuff myself to one party. I equally disapprove of both parties, and the path they have taken this country to.

 

 

Dude I know you have had a nice time throwing your grenades on this thread. I personally think your act is some kind of performance art that is leaving you cracking yourself up as you roll on the floor. 
However, the thing underlying all the ridicule you are getting on this board is that the things you are saying are so dumb, uninformed and just defy common sense that I refuse to believe that anyone could actually internally use as a rationale for voting for Trump. 
But, if you are for real, then I think you are the poster child for why we need to develop critical thinking curriculum for all of the nations schools. 

[aggie08 21492]

Tulsi Gabbard, as of yesterday, is no longer a Democrat and just another grifting Trump sycophant with some very likely ties to Russia.

Both sides though, am I right?

[royiv 9265]

10 minutes ago, Stros121 said:

Yes, and if the R’s did the same thing 6 or 7 months from the election. I would vote for D.

i would vote for a D Tulsi over a R Trump

i don’t handcuff myself to one party. I equally disapprove of both parties, and the path they have taken this country to.

 

 

Do you have any concerns about Trump’s cognitive abilities similar to what  democrats expressed after the June debate?

[SydneyCarton 48063]

8 hours ago, Stros121 said:

What if any conservatives values do you still hold?

I don’t think this country should be operating at a 30 trillion dollar deficit. 
 

but trumps economic policies added 4 trillion in debt before Covid, and 9 trillion overall, nearly tripling the deficit in his one term. So if neither party is going to do shit about deficit spending, I might as well go with the party who uses it to not cut social safety nets and education. 
 

Also, Trump debated Harris. What do you mean she didn’t debate viable competition? Your candidate isn’t viable competition? 
 

Joe Biden dropped out, Harris was on the ticket as VP, so when people vote for Biden they also vote for her. Should Biden have been chained to a radiator and forced to run for re-election? If trump dies tomorrow don’t think Vance doesn’t replace him at the top of the ticket?

Edited October 24 by SydneyCarton

[hornmpa96 2618]

40 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I don’t think this country should be operating at a 30 trillion dollar deficit. 

Fiscal conservatives should absolutely vote for Harris over Trump. While neither candidate would reduce the US debt, Vice President Harris’s policies would result in $4 trillion less debt by 2035 per the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget.

[Captainant 27638]

8 hours ago, Stros121 said:

i would vote for a D Tulsi over a R Trump

i don’t handcuff myself to one party. I equally disapprove of both parties, and the path they have taken this country to.

You really need to diversify your information sources. Buy a subscription to groundnews or one of those news aggregators that tracks factuality and reporting framing bias, I think you'll be shocked to see how narrow your worldview is being informed by your media diet. 

Because seriously dawg, Tulsi Gabbard literally registered (R) the other day lol. You should also know #bothsides is not gonna make you many friends, aside from anastasis. It's a stubborn lazy and uncritical opinion that's usually used to distract the conversation, rather than defend your indefensible position

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13578]

10 hours ago, Stros121 said:

Trump reminds me of a lot of these high rolling business owners. Yes they love America not sure why that’s hard to believe. 

If a conservative Iranian cleric publicly called for the execution of innocent Americans- a position he defends to this day, a history of inciting violence amongst Americans from "knock the hell out of them" comments to mass shooter manifestos' parroting his talking points to J6ers violently trying to overturn the results of a free and fair election, a history of idolizing foreign anti-democratic dictators including claiming he "fell in love" with a communist dictator who murdered an American college student, saying military force should be used against Americans who oppose him, etc...

Would you say that Iranian cleric loved America?

 

[Snake Diggity 4620]

10 hours ago, Stros121 said:

For someone who has very intelligent post most of the the time. You’re very vague and boring with your anti trump talking points. Is there anything trump has done that you agree with? What is the worst thing Trump has ever done as president?

 

Trump is universally unfit to be President.  
 

The tamest reason is policy: his tax and tariff plans will destroy the economy, his border policy will exacerbate the problem, his foreign policy will turn our allies into new enemies and empower our old enemies, his energy policy will tank the price of oil, further destroy the environment, and hinder innovation, and generally his policies will widen the wealth gap and cause increased social issues.

But beyond that, his temperament, rhetoric, and character are so far out of line with what is required for an acceptable/effective leader that his policies shouldn’t even be a factor.  One look at any meaningful sample of his public statements, interviews, and feedback from the people who know him best shows that he is entirely driven by ego and self-interest and will do literally anything to feed that drive.  He talks shit incessantly, about his former friends, colleagues, world leaders, constituents, and political opponents.  He lies incessantly, about his accomplishments, about what he knows, and generally will lie about anything if he thinks it will benefit him.  He has lied about the integrity of our elections going back to even before 2016; for me personally, this is the most disqualifying thing he’s done.  Undermining the people’s faith in democratic elections with lies is the type of shit a dictator does, and the exact opposite of patriotic.  He intentionally sows discord.  Thats the opposite of leadership.

He’s the standard bearer for the party of “family values” who has cheated on all 3 of his wives and committed sexual assault.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “fiscal responsibility” who has a litany of bankruptcies.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “law and order” who is a felon.

If you read all that shit and give a wave of the hand and stick to “that’s fake news, and nothing compared to Harris’ DEI and open border agenda”, your brain has been poisoned.

[TwiceHorn 31440]

22 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

Trump is universally unfit to be President.  
 

The tamest reason is policy: his tax and tariff plans will destroy the economy, his border policy will exacerbate the problem, his foreign policy will turn our allies into new enemies and empower our old enemies, his energy policy will tank the price of oil, further destroy the environment, and hinder innovation, and generally his policies will widen the wealth gap and cause increased social issues.

But beyond that, his temperament, rhetoric, and character are so far out of line with what is required for an acceptable/effective leader that his policies shouldn’t even be a factor.  One look at any meaningful sample of his public statements, interviews, and feedback from the people who know him best shows that he is entirely driven by ego and self-interest and will do literally anything to feed that drive.  He talks shit incessantly, about his former friends, colleagues, world leaders, constituents, and political opponents.  He lies incessantly, about his accomplishments, about what he knows, and generally will lie about anything if he thinks it will benefit him.  He has lied about the integrity of our elections going back to even before 2016; for me personally, this is the most disqualifying thing he’s done.  Undermining the people’s faith in democratic elections with lies is the type of shit a dictator does, and the exact opposite of patriotic.  He intentionally sows discord.  Thats the opposite of leadership.

He’s the standard bearer for the party of “family values” who has cheated on all 3 of his wives and committed sexual assault.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “fiscal responsibility” who has a litany of bankruptcies.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “law and order” who is a felon.

If you read all that shit and give a wave of the hand and stick to “that’s fake news, and nothing compared to Harris’ DEI and open border agenda”, your brain has been poisoned.

That's about as solid and comprehensive a summary as I have seen.

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

Trump is universally unfit to be President.  
 
The tamest reason is policy: his tax and tariff plans will destroy the economy, his border policy will exacerbate the problem, his foreign policy will turn our allies into new enemies and empower our old enemies, his energy policy will tank the price of oil, further destroy the environment, and hinder innovation, and generally his policies will widen the wealth gap and cause increased social issues.
But beyond that, his temperament, rhetoric, and character are so far out of line with what is required for an acceptable/effective leader that his policies shouldn’t even be a factor.  One look at any meaningful sample of his public statements, interviews, and feedback from the people who know him best shows that he is entirely driven by ego and self-interest and will do literally anything to feed that drive.  He talks shit incessantly, about his former friends, colleagues, world leaders, constituents, and political opponents.  He lies incessantly, about his accomplishments, about what he knows, and generally will lie about anything if he thinks it will benefit him.  He has lied about the integrity of our elections going back to even before 2016; for me personally, this is the most disqualifying thing he’s done.  Undermining the people’s faith in democratic elections with lies is the type of shit a dictator does, and the exact opposite of patriotic.  He intentionally sows discord.  Thats the opposite of leadership.
He’s the standard bearer for the party of “family values” who has cheated on all 3 of his wives and committed sexual assault.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “fiscal responsibility” who has a litany of bankruptcies.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “law and order” who is a felon.
If you read all that shit and give a wave of the hand and stick to “that’s fake news, and nothing compared to Harris’ DEI and open border agenda”, your brain has been poisoned.

Post of the year in this forum, IMO.

[GreenspointTexas 9598]

10 hours ago, Stros121 said:

DEI to me is similar to my child going to the University of Texas. Both my kids finished in the top 6%. 1 finished #5 out 750 and still didn’t get into UT nursing school. I’m sure there’s plenty that factors into this that I don’t know.

My family is on the Creek Indian rolls. My daughters never wanted to use their Native American status as  there race. We as a family didn’t want take from the natives who need the resources more than they do. So if they check the box they are in with a full ride.
 

Both my daughters are going to Texas State.

I will get to the business question tomorrow. 

I got into the Air Force Academy but didnt get into UT Nursing School. Had to start with an Economics major at Texas and transfer colleges.

If you need me to put in a word with the Dean of Nursing, lemme know

 

[wildcat09 29347]

1 hour ago, Snake Diggity said:

Trump is universally unfit to be President.  
 

The tamest reason is policy: his tax and tariff plans will destroy the economy, his border policy will exacerbate the problem, his foreign policy will turn our allies into new enemies and empower our old enemies, his energy policy will tank the price of oil, further destroy the environment, and hinder innovation, and generally his policies will widen the wealth gap and cause increased social issues.

But beyond that, his temperament, rhetoric, and character are so far out of line with what is required for an acceptable/effective leader that his policies shouldn’t even be a factor.  One look at any meaningful sample of his public statements, interviews, and feedback from the people who know him best shows that he is entirely driven by ego and self-interest and will do literally anything to feed that drive.  He talks shit incessantly, about his former friends, colleagues, world leaders, constituents, and political opponents.  He lies incessantly, about his accomplishments, about what he knows, and generally will lie about anything if he thinks it will benefit him.  He has lied about the integrity of our elections going back to even before 2016; for me personally, this is the most disqualifying thing he’s done.  Undermining the people’s faith in democratic elections with lies is the type of shit a dictator does, and the exact opposite of patriotic.  He intentionally sows discord.  Thats the opposite of leadership.

He’s the standard bearer for the party of “family values” who has cheated on all 3 of his wives and committed sexual assault.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “fiscal responsibility” who has a litany of bankruptcies.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “law and order” who is a felon.

If you read all that shit and give a wave of the hand and stick to “that’s fake news, and nothing compared to Harris’ DEI and open border agenda”, your brain has been poisoned.

My only critique of this is it gives Trump too much credit to say he's self-interested. He's not conscious enough to be self-interested. He's closer to a rabid animal than a person capable of normal thought. To the extent he can even express an idea that's bigger than "me horny," it's not his own idea or even something he's capable of understanding, but something he instinctively deploys as a tool to serve his immediate ego.  

[Brisketexan 105078]

12 hours ago, Stros121 said:

For someone who has very intelligent post most of the the time. You’re very vague and boring with your anti trump talking points. Is there anything trump has done that you agree with? What is the worst thing Trump has ever done as president?

 

The response below is a good start.  Read it.  It's dead-on.

1 hour ago, Snake Diggity said:

Trump is universally unfit to be President.  
 

The tamest reason is policy: his tax and tariff plans will destroy the economy, his border policy will exacerbate the problem, his foreign policy will turn our allies into new enemies and empower our old enemies, his energy policy will tank the price of oil, further destroy the environment, and hinder innovation, and generally his policies will widen the wealth gap and cause increased social issues.

But beyond that, his temperament, rhetoric, and character are so far out of line with what is required for an acceptable/effective leader that his policies shouldn’t even be a factor.  One look at any meaningful sample of his public statements, interviews, and feedback from the people who know him best shows that he is entirely driven by ego and self-interest and will do literally anything to feed that drive.  He talks shit incessantly, about his former friends, colleagues, world leaders, constituents, and political opponents.  He lies incessantly, about his accomplishments, about what he knows, and generally will lie about anything if he thinks it will benefit him.  He has lied about the integrity of our elections going back to even before 2016; for me personally, this is the most disqualifying thing he’s done.  Undermining the people’s faith in democratic elections with lies is the type of shit a dictator does, and the exact opposite of patriotic.  He intentionally sows discord.  Thats the opposite of leadership.

He’s the standard bearer for the party of “family values” who has cheated on all 3 of his wives and committed sexual assault.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “fiscal responsibility” who has a litany of bankruptcies.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “law and order” who is a felon.

If you read all that shit and give a wave of the hand and stick to “that’s fake news, and nothing compared to Harris’ DEI and open border agenda”, your brain has been poisoned.

But to add on a couple of those points:

1) The 100% no-going-back deal-breaker was January 6th, and the relentless cascade of lies, INTENDED TO DESTABILIZE THE COUNTRY, leading up to it.  January 6th was an attempt to overthrow our government.  It was urged on, supported, and actually embraced by Trump.  He betrayed our country, he stands by that betrayal, and he continues with the same lies, further dividing and destabilizing our country.  You are either the president of the entire country, or you are not fit to be the president of any of it.

2) He is a stochastic terrorist.  He says horrific things about those who are weaker/smaller/less advantaged than him, intending to and actually inciting violence against them.  A slaughter in an El Paso Wal-Mart.  A massacre in a Buffalo grocery store.  A mass murder in a Pittsburgh synagogue.  Horrific slander against Haitians in Springfield.  When he calls people with names like mine "murderers and rapists," not only is it false (native-born people commit violent crime TWICE as often as immigrants; that is, you are statistically MUCH safer if you are in a room full of immigrants than you are in a room full of native-born Americans), it incites violence.  He knows it.  He does it on purpose.  He LIKES IT.  He is a terrorist, in every sense of the word.

3) His lies are relentless.  It's not just "nasty talk."  It's psychotic, and pathological.  There has never been a figure in American politics anywhere close to the level of liar that he is.  We're not talking the "everyone fudges here and there" -- he lies about the most obvious things.

4) He sides with our enemies.  All of our allies are aligned against Russia and its horrific invasion of Ukraine.  He sides with Russia.

5) He does not actually stand for anyone but himself.  You suckers think he stands for your side of the political aisle.  No.  He does not.  He doesn't give a single iota of shit about you.  He only cares about power, and trying to fill his internal void with power and approval.  He can never fill that void.

6) I have 30 years of experience working with large enterprises.  I have seen hundreds of executives in action, and their level of competence covers the waterfront.  Some are amazing leaders, the top 5% able to accomplish incredible things deftly and brilliantly.  Most are in the middle 90% - good enough, sometimes hitting the mark, sometimes missing it.  And then there is the bottom 5%, which is people who are genuinely incompetent, narcissists, idiots, etc.  And truly, there is the bottom of that class.  The bottom 1%, who are malignant, who come in and make everything about themselves, who lie, who cheat and break deals, and do incredible damage to the enterprise.  I know executives, I've seen Trump's type before, multiple times.  He is a cancer.  BTW, I was livid when Bill Clinton wagged his finger and lied to me.  I still hold him in contempt for that.  Trump tells more lies in a week than Clinton told his entire presidency.  If you thought that Clinton's dishonest character was disqualifying then (and I did), the you cannot think any differently about Trump today.

7) Want proof that he is a cancer?  He is a completely failed businessman.  He has not succeeded at any legitimate business -- he has only tread water, starting with a fortune, and keeping pretty steady (the return on his investment is less than what it would have been if he'd have just dumped his initial stake into the S&P 500).  He is good at one thing: selling himself.  He is con-man and a grifter.  Again, I've seen more than a few people (almost always men) like him.  The only thing remarkable about him is the scale, that he managed to go national with it.

8 ) His bizarre and inconsistent "economic policies" that he has promised this campaign are nothing but 5th grade class president-level promises of "recess all day, no more tests, and free ice cream in the cafetaria."  TWENTY THREE Nobel prize winning economists have pointed out that his proposals, if implemented, would be disastrous.  And it's obviously so.

9) He is a weak, not very smart man, who allowed himself to be completely manipulated by the worst elements of the Federalist Society to appoint judges who flatly disregard the rule of law (at best) and often do that AND are incompetent (they were selected because of their loyalty and malleability, NOT because they are qualified).  As someone whose livelihood is closely tied to the skill and performance of the men and women who wear black robes, I have seen a rapid decline in the quality and ethics of that group.  I now have to advise clients things like "I don't know what will happen here, because this judge is just not smart."  Or, even worse, "I know what the law is and says, but this judge is going to do whatever the Freedom Eagle Religious Institute amicus brief tells him to do, so buckle up."

10) Decorated men, who took an oath to serve their country, and take that oath very seriously -- think men like Mad Dog Mattis, who (before he came out and spoke the truth about his view of Trump) MAGA ADORED -- have flatly told us that their experiences with Trump informed them that he is an existential threat to the Republic, and he cannot be allowed to take power.

 

As to anything Trump has done that I approved of?  Fuck if I know.  I'm sure he pardoned at least one person who probably should have been pardoned -- somebody convicted of a drug crime or something.

[Brisketexan 105078]

Imagine you were vetting someone applying for a job at your company.  You find out that in the past, he's worked closely with certain people.  You pick up the phone and call those people, and say "hey, this Don guy has applied for one of my managerial jobs.  You worked with him when he had a senior managerial position.  What did you think of him?"  And these are not clowns.  These are people who worked at a high level.  Many of them have a DECADES-LONG track record of high-level performance and genuine dedication to the enterprise (esp. the ones I bolded).  And this is what they tell you:

Mark Esper — Trump's Secretary of Defense
“Trump is not fit for office because he puts himself first and I think anybody running for office should put the country first.”

James Mattis — Trump's Secretary of Defense
“Trump's use of the Presidency to destroy trust in our election and to poison our respect for fellow citizens has been enabled by pseudo political leaders whose names will live in infamy as profiles in cowardice. Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people - does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us.”

John Kelly — Trump's Chief of Staff
“Trump is a person that has no idea what America stands for and has no idea what America is all about. He's a person who admires autocrats and murderous dictators. A person that has nothing but contempt for our democratic institutions, our Constitution, and the rule of law.”

Mick Mulvaney — Trump's Chief of Staff
“I am working hard to make sure that someone else is the nominee.”

Mark Milley — Trump's Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
“Trump is a wannabe dictator. We don't take an oath to an individual. We take an oath to the Constitution, and we take an oath to the idea that is America - and we're willing to die to protect it.”

John Bolton — Trump's National Security Advisor
“There will be celebrations in the Kremlin if Trump is elected in November. Putin thinks that he is an easy mark. Donald Trump wants Americans to treat him like North Koreans treat Kim Jong Un. Get ready.”

Cassidy Hutchinson — Trump's Assistant to Chief of Staff
“If Trump is elected president again in 2024, I do fear that it will be the last election where we're voting for democracy because, if he is elected again, I don't think we'll be voting under the same Constitution.”

Stephanie Grisham — Chief of Staff to Trump's Wife Melania
“I did not vote for Trump in 2020.”

Sarah Matthews — Trump's Deputy Press Secretary
“Trump has a history of making unhinged comments. He helped incite a deadly insurrection on our nation's Capitol.”

Anthony Scaramucci — Trump's Director of Communications
“Trump's going to make things rougher for people. He has already said he's going after his adversaries using the Department of Justice. When someone's telling you they're going to flex and be a dictator on day one and go after their adversaries, this is against the 200+ year experiment of America.”

Alyssa Farah Griffin — Trump's Director of Strategic Communications
“The reason that I cannot in good conscience endorse Donald Trump this year also has to do with the fact that he is walking away. Not just from keeping faith with the constitution on January 6th, but also from a commitment to fiscal responsibility, a commitment to the sanctity of life, a commitment to American leadership in the world.”

Bill Barr — Trump's Attorney General
“I have made clear that I strongly oppose Trump for the nomination and will not endorse Trump. One of the reasons I'm against Trump as the nominee is I don't think he's going to move the country forward.”

HR McMaster — Trump's National Security Advisor
“It would be terribly divisive for our country for Trump to run again.”

 

When you call someone's references, and that's the kind of thing they tell you -- not the usual wishy-washy "well....we had some challenges when we worked together....but we made it through" that you USUALLY hear when someone has a negative impression of a candidate -- YOU DO NOT HIRE HIM.  YOU WOULD BE A FUCKING MORON TO HIRE HIM.

['stache 21798]

2 hours ago, Snake Diggity said:

Trump is universally unfit to be President.  
 

The tamest reason is policy: his tax and tariff plans will destroy the economy, his border policy will exacerbate the problem, his foreign policy will turn our allies into new enemies and empower our old enemies, his energy policy will tank the price of oil, further destroy the environment, and hinder innovation, and generally his policies will widen the wealth gap and cause increased social issues.

But beyond that, his temperament, rhetoric, and character are so far out of line with what is required for an acceptable/effective leader that his policies shouldn’t even be a factor.  One look at any meaningful sample of his public statements, interviews, and feedback from the people who know him best shows that he is entirely driven by ego and self-interest and will do literally anything to feed that drive.  He talks shit incessantly, about his former friends, colleagues, world leaders, constituents, and political opponents.  He lies incessantly, about his accomplishments, about what he knows, and generally will lie about anything if he thinks it will benefit him.  He has lied about the integrity of our elections going back to even before 2016; for me personally, this is the most disqualifying thing he’s done.  Undermining the people’s faith in democratic elections with lies is the type of shit a dictator does, and the exact opposite of patriotic.  He intentionally sows discord.  Thats the opposite of leadership.

He’s the standard bearer for the party of “family values” who has cheated on all 3 of his wives and committed sexual assault.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “fiscal responsibility” who has a litany of bankruptcies.  He’s the standard bearer for the party of “law and order” who is a felon.

If you read all that shit and give a wave of the hand and stick to “that’s fake news, and nothing compared to Harris’ DEI and open border agenda”, your brain has been poisoned.

God damn. If he doesn't respond to this point by point you know he's just a typical maga troll in an "aw shucks" costume.

[Red Five 40846]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

God damn. If he doesn't respond to this point by point you know he's just a typical maga troll in an "aw shucks" costume.

In my experience, the typical response is a hand wave with a roll of the eyes. "Whatever. Still better than voting for a democrat."

[Mole 4330]

Somewhere in this thread, the question of still holding conservative values came up. Here are defining conservative values that I grew up with:

The character of our elected officials is by far the most important criteria for selection. If they are not honest or trusted to put the country’s best interests first, they are not qualified. Most Trump supporters I’ve run across openly admit to his clear lack of character. Core value abandoned.

Another conservative value is protecting the family. I have to hide the demented things the former president says from my son to protect my family from these deranged values. His words and actions are not healthy in the home; they harm the family, so the former president has to be censored by a concerned parent.

Character and protecting the family were conservative values until conservatives abandoned their core values. I didn’t change, you fake conservatives did. 

[Brisketexan 105078]

6 minutes ago, Red Five said:

In my experience, the typical response is a hand wave with a roll of the eyes. "Whatever. Still better than voting for a democrat."

This.  Facts don't matter.  Indeed, contrary facts just make them entrench further into their unsupportable positions.

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

"This thread is filled with Trump derangement syndrome" hand waves

[Snake Diggity 4620]

22 minutes ago, 'stache said:

God damn. If he doesn't respond to this point by point you know he's just a typical maga troll in an "aw shucks" costume.

I would be shocked by any kind of detailed or well-thought out response.  For a host of reasons.  But it is really, really hard to admit that some of the core shit you have been bought into your whole life is dead-ass wrong, or even debatable.

I was raised ultra-religious, ultra-ultra-conservative, and very racist.  Not even 5 years of UT-Austin made much difference in my worldview.  It wasn’t until my mid 20s and I spent significant time traveling and reading that things started to shift.  And even then it wasn’t until my mid 30s that I feel like I had any kind of grasp on what’s true.  Luckily for me that all happened before 2016, so by the time Trump came along politically, I knew better.  But it wasn’t but 15-20 years ago that I would have been a perfect mark for Trump.  That’s part of what’s so frustrating and sad about engaging Trump voters; they are victims, both in how their ideology was formed and in how they will be impacted by the politicians they support.  

[Dbeasy 15042]

On 10/23/2024 at 8:14 AM, TwiceHorn said:

Nice try.

Screw what the economists say, try this thought experiment.  Trump wants tariffs instead of a tax raise to raise revenue and punish the Chinese.  The cheapest goods in our economy right now are Chinese, so they basically set the floor for pricing for whatever goods Americans can buy.  Regardless of who pays tariffs, his tariffs will raise the price of Chinese goods in the amount of the tariffs, 20% I think is the number he's throwing around.

Because Chinese goods set the pricing floor where they compete, the cost of those goods to Americans will rise 20%.  It might mean more people buy American, or Vietnamese, or Malaysian, or whatever, but the cost of goods will rise 20% and it won't go down until the tariffs are lifted.

That, friendo, is 20% right out of your pocket, whether you are rich or poor, regardless of your earning.  

It's stupid, it will not help anything and it will cost you and me a shit ton.  And Congress can't undo it.  No one can.

EDIT TO ADD:  I address this one because "the economy" is a frequent incantation and because unlike most of the other complaints and Trump's "concepts of a plan" to address them, this is one he can implement all by himself.

This is one of the most frustrating issues about Trump supporters. Trump added massive government debt, taxed the middle class, implemented tariffs which the republican party has always been against, failed at immigration, failed at healthcare, pretty much failed at everything he tried except tax cuts for really rich people and a few other bits. Trump does nothing for the issues you care about. 

On 10/23/2024 at 8:53 AM, royiv said:

I voted Republican in every presidential election until Obama’s second term. I look back and can’t believe that I voted for a ticket that had Sarah Palin on it. Embarrassing in retrospect. I can’t believe my now wife (PNW liberal from Portland) continued to date me. 

This is shocking to me. I always saw you as a far left person. 

On 10/23/2024 at 11:24 AM, SydneyCarton said:

Just randomly circling back to throw into the pile that I was a registered republican until 2016, when I didn't vote for president. Hated Hillary, didn't understand the hatred of Obama I started seeing, thought Trump was bad, bad fucking news. 

Around 2019 I started reading and posting here to try and gather information about Democratic candidates and policies. Turns out I was an active voter most of my life, but a really, really fucking low information voter. 

Yup. I figured out Rush was a moron right away in the early 1090’s, but it took me a long time to pull my head out of the cult thinking. I turned fully around the time of Obama and became much more knowledgeable. Biggest change was recognizing the propaganda of the right, Fox, etc. 

[royiv 9265]

40 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

This is shocking to me. I always saw you as a far left person. 

Yup. I figured out Rush was a moron right away in the early 1090’s, but it took me a long time to pull my head out of the cult thinking. I turned fully around the time of Obama and became much more knowledgeable. Biggest change was recognizing the propaganda of the right, Fox, etc. 

I watched Rush’s syndicated late night TV show religiously every night before I went to bed. I lapped up everything he said about the Clintons.

[Sawbonz 27542]

4 hours ago, Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand said:

If a conservative Iranian cleric publicly called for the execution of innocent Americans- a position he defends to this day, a history of inciting violence amongst Americans from "knock the hell out of them" comments to mass shooter manifestos' parroting his talking points to J6ers violently trying to overturn the results of a free and fair election, a history of idolizing foreign anti-democratic dictators including claiming he "fell in love" with a communist dictator who murdered an American college student, saying military force should be used against Americans who oppose him, etc...

Would you say that Iranian cleric loved America?

 

Depends 

 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2822]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Imagine you were vetting someone applying for a job at your company.  You find out that in the past, he's worked closely with certain people.  You pick up the phone and call those people, and say "hey, this Don guy has applied for one of my managerial jobs.  You worked with him when he had a senior managerial position.  What did you think of him?"  And these are not clowns.  These are people who worked at a high level.  Many of them have a DECADES-LONG track record of high-level performance and genuine dedication to the enterprise (esp. the ones I bolded).  And this is what they tell you:

Mark Esper — Trump's Secretary of Defense
“Trump is not fit for office because he puts himself first and I think anybody running for office should put the country first.”

James Mattis — Trump's Secretary of Defense
“Trump's use of the Presidency to destroy trust in our election and to poison our respect for fellow citizens has been enabled by pseudo political leaders whose names will live in infamy as profiles in cowardice. Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people - does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us.”

John Kelly — Trump's Chief of Staff
“Trump is a person that has no idea what America stands for and has no idea what America is all about. He's a person who admires autocrats and murderous dictators. A person that has nothing but contempt for our democratic institutions, our Constitution, and the rule of law.”

Mick Mulvaney — Trump's Chief of Staff
“I am working hard to make sure that someone else is the nominee.”

Mark Milley — Trump's Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
“Trump is a wannabe dictator. We don't take an oath to an individual. We take an oath to the Constitution, and we take an oath to the idea that is America - and we're willing to die to protect it.”

John Bolton — Trump's National Security Advisor
“There will be celebrations in the Kremlin if Trump is elected in November. Putin thinks that he is an easy mark. Donald Trump wants Americans to treat him like North Koreans treat Kim Jong Un. Get ready.”

Cassidy Hutchinson — Trump's Assistant to Chief of Staff
“If Trump is elected president again in 2024, I do fear that it will be the last election where we're voting for democracy because, if he is elected again, I don't think we'll be voting under the same Constitution.”

Stephanie Grisham — Chief of Staff to Trump's Wife Melania
“I did not vote for Trump in 2020.”

Sarah Matthews — Trump's Deputy Press Secretary
“Trump has a history of making unhinged comments. He helped incite a deadly insurrection on our nation's Capitol.”

Anthony Scaramucci — Trump's Director of Communications
“Trump's going to make things rougher for people. He has already said he's going after his adversaries using the Department of Justice. When someone's telling you they're going to flex and be a dictator on day one and go after their adversaries, this is against the 200+ year experiment of America.”

Alyssa Farah Griffin — Trump's Director of Strategic Communications
“The reason that I cannot in good conscience endorse Donald Trump this year also has to do with the fact that he is walking away. Not just from keeping faith with the constitution on January 6th, but also from a commitment to fiscal responsibility, a commitment to the sanctity of life, a commitment to American leadership in the world.”

Bill Barr — Trump's Attorney General
“I have made clear that I strongly oppose Trump for the nomination and will not endorse Trump. One of the reasons I'm against Trump as the nominee is I don't think he's going to move the country forward.”

HR McMaster — Trump's National Security Advisor
“It would be terribly divisive for our country for Trump to run again.”

 

When you call someone's references, and that's the kind of thing they tell you -- not the usual wishy-washy "well....we had some challenges when we worked together....but we made it through" that you USUALLY hear when someone has a negative impression of a candidate -- YOU DO NOT HIRE HIM.  YOU WOULD BE A FUCKING MORON TO HIRE HIM.

Brisket, are all these verbatim quotes? Because I may plagiarize some of your work.  Maybe a facebook quote per day.

[B00M 6414]

2 hours ago, Mole said:

Somewhere in this thread, the question of still holding conservative values came up. Here are defining conservative values that I grew up with:

The character of our elected officials is by far the most important criteria for selection. If they are not honest or trusted to put the country’s best interests first, they are not qualified. Most Trump supporters I’ve run across openly admit to his clear lack of character. Core value abandoned.

Another conservative value is protecting the family. I have to hide the demented things the former president says from my son to protect my family from these deranged values. His words and actions are not healthy in the home; they harm the family, so the former president has to be censored by a concerned parent.

Character and protecting the family were conservative values until conservatives abandoned their core values. I didn’t change, you fake conservatives did. 

This is fucking wild. I’m so thankful mine are stil too young to notice this raging buffoon 

[Serak The Preparer 3431]

15 hours ago, Stros121 said:

Hey man, the FBI said the laptop and it contents were real in 2019. I think they had a hearing in June 2024. You might want to watch the Mark Z. Interview as well. Let’s just post facts please. That article is from 2020?

You have posted two incorrect facts about the laptop so far. You stated that the 51 analyst initially claimed the laptop was not Biden's, when they actually stated that it had the earmark of being fake (as posted by @TwiceHorn). You can disagree with that assessment, but your claim was not correct.

In addition you claim in the post that both the laptop and its contents have been confirmed to be Biden's. I very much agree that the FBI has stated that the physical laptop is indeed Biden's but I see no claim that its contents were real. Some of the emails were used as evidence in Biden's trial but that is not the same as saying its contents were confirmed. The big "smoking gun" of the laptop were emails alleging corruption between Hunter, Joe, and other parties. Those have NOT been confirmed, and no trial appears to be ongoing.

I am fine with sticking to facts, but can we amend your request to "Let's just post correct facts please"?

Edited October 24 by Serak The Preparer

[Foosters 17842]

The below is spoilered for length. It is a Federal Judge's order* from the John Eastman case. It provides a factual summary of what led to 1/6. One of the most frustrating things about the 1/6 conversation, is the focus seems to be narrowed to just that day - providing cover for the GOP faithful to say "it was spontaneous," or "it got out of control." This order makes it pretty clear that Trump and team KNEW that they had no basis to claim the election was stolen, but they tried to steal it anyway. @Stros121 Take a read. If you need to, have your computer replace "Trump" with "Obama" and "John Eastman" with "Eric Holder" and see if it makes any difference. They spent 3 months leading up to 1/6 with the plan to steal the election and keep Trump in power: 

Spoiler

Dr. Eastman claims that the 2020 presidential election was “one of the most controversial in American history.” Despite the lack of evidence of election tampering, “a significant portion of the population came to believe the election was tainted by fraud, disregard of state election law, misconduct by election officials and other factors.” In the months after the election, President Trump and Dr. Eastman helped foster those public beliefs and encouraged state legislators to question the election results.

Dr. Eastman testified before and met with “state legislators[] to advise them of their constitutional authority . . . to direct the ‘manner’ of choosing presidential electors.” Relying on public interviews with attendees, the Select Committee states that on January 2, 2021, President Trump and Dr. Eastman hosted a briefing urging several hundred state legislators from states won by President Biden to “decertify” electors. President Trump also made personal appeals to state officials. On January 2, he called Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to discuss allegations of election fraud. During the call, President Trump repeatedly claimed it was impossible for him to have lost the popular vote in Georgia, and repeatedly mentioned his “current margin [of] only 11,779” votes. He explained to Secretary Raffensperger that he did not care about specific fraud numbers as long as he won, “because what’s the difference between winning the election by two votes and winning it by half a million votes[?]”  When Secretary Raffensperger pushed back against these requests, the President warned of public anger and threatened criminal consequences.11 The President interspersed the conversation with specific fraud claims—dead people voting, absentee ballot forgeries, trucks ferrying illegal ballots, and machines stuffed with “unvoted” ballots. Mr. Raffensperger debunked the allegations “point by point” and explained that “the data you have is wrong;” however, President Trump still told him, “I just want to find 11,780 votes.”

The next day, President Trump attempted to elevate Jeffrey Clark to Acting Attorney General, based on Mr. Clark’s statements that he would write a letter to contested states saying that the election may have been stolen and urging them to decertify electors. The White House Counsel described Mr. Clark’s proposed letter as a “murder-suicide pact” that would “damage everyone who touches it” and commented “we should have nothing to do with that letter.” President Trump eventually did not promote Mr. Clark after multiple high-ranking members of the Department of Justice threatened mass resignations that would leave the Department a “graveyard.”

In the months following the election, numerous credible sources–from the President’s inner circle to agency leadership to statisticians–informed President Trump and Dr. Eastman that there was no evidence of election fraud. One week after the election, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency declared “[t]he November 3rd election [] the most secure in American history” and found “no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised.” An internal Trump Campaign memo concluded in November that fraud claims related to Dominion voting machines were baseless. In early December, Attorney General Barr publicly stated there was no evidence of fraud, and on December 27, Deputy Attorney General Donoghue privately told President Trump that after “dozens of investigations, hundreds of interviews,” the Department of Justice had concluded that “the major allegations [of election fraud] are not supported by the evidence developed.”

Still, President Trump repeatedly urged that “the Department [of Justice] should publicly say that the election is corrupt or suspect or not reliable.” By early January, more than sixty court cases alleging fraud had been dismissed for lack of evidence or lack of standing.

2. Plan to disrupt electoral count

In response to alleged fraud, Dr. Eastman researched and planned a strategy for President Trump to win the election. Just after Christmas, Dr. Eastman wrote a now-public two page memo proposing that Vice President Pence refuse to count certified electoral votes from states contested by the Trump campaign: Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. The memo outlines the two ways in which Dr. Eastman’s plan ensures “President Trump is re-elected.” If Vice President Pence refused to count electoral votes from all seven contested states, President Trump would win 232 votes to 222. Alternatively, if Congress claimed that a candidate could not win without reaching 270 votes, Vice President Pence could send the election to the Republican-majority House of Representatives, which would then elect President Trump. The memo emphasizes that “[t]he main thing here is that Pence should do this without asking for permission – either from a vote of the joint session or from the Court.” On January 3, 2021, Dr. Eastman drafted a six-page memo expanding on his plan and analysis, which he later disclosed to the media. This memo “war gam[ed]” four potential scenarios for January 6, only some of which would lead to President Trump winning reelection. Claiming that “[t]he stakes could not be higher,” Dr. Eastman concludes his memo stating that his plan is “BOLD, Certainly. But this Election was Stolen by a strategic Democrat plan to systematically flout existing election laws for partisan advantage; we’re no longer playing by Queensbury Rules.”

On January 4, President Trump and Dr. Eastman invited Vice President Pence, the Vice President’s counsel Greg Jacob, and the Vice President’s Chief of Staff Marc Short to the Oval Office to discuss Dr. Eastman’s memo. Dr. Eastman presented only two courses of action for the Vice President on January 6: to reject electors or delay the count. During that meeting, Vice President Pence consistently held that he did not possess the authority to carry out Dr. Eastman’s proposal. The Vice President’s counsel and chief of staff were then directed to meet separately with Dr. Eastman the next day to review materials in support of his plan. Dr. Eastman opened the meeting on January 5 bluntly: “I’m here asking you to reject the electors.” Vice President’s counsel Greg Jacob and Dr. Eastman spent the majority of the meeting in a Socratic debate on the merits of the memo’s legal arguments. Over the course of their discussion, Dr. Eastman’s focus pivoted from requesting Vice President Pence reject the electors to asking him to delay the count, which he presented as more “palatable.” Ultimately, Dr. Eastman conceded that his argument was contrary to consistent historical practice, would likely be unanimously rejected by the Supreme Court, and violated the Electoral Count Act on four separate grounds. Despite receiving pushback, President Trump and Dr. Eastman continued to urge Vice President Pence to carry out the plan. At 1:00 am on January 6, President Trump tweeted, “If Vice President @Mike_Pence comes through for us, we will win the Presidency . . . Mike can send it back!” At 8:17 a.m., the President tweeted again, “States want to correct their votes . . . All Mike Pence has to do is send them back to the States, AND WE WIN. Do it Mike, this is a time for extreme courage!” Following his tweets, President Trump placed two calls to Vice President Pence directly. After not being able to connect with the Vice President around 9:00 am, they spoke at approximately 11:20 am. Vice President Pence’s National Security Advisor, General Keith Kellogg, Jr., was present and described President Trump as berating the Vice President for “not [being] tough enough to make the call” to delay or reject electoral votes.

 3. Attack on the Capitol

On January 6, 2021, tens of thousands of people gathered outside the White House to protest the lawful transition of power from President Trump to President Joseph Biden. Both Dr. Eastman and President Trump gave speeches to relay the plan not just to the thousands gathered at the Ellipse but also to those watching at home. President Trump’s personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, introduced Dr. Eastman before he spoke as the “professor” who would “explain . . . what happened last night, how they cheated, and how it was exactly the same as what they did on November 3.” Dr. Eastman declared to the crowd: And all we are demanding of Vice President Pence is this afternoon at 1:00 he let the legislators of the state look into this so we get to the bottom of it, and the American people know whether we have control of the direction of our government, or not. We no longer live in a self-governing republic if we can’t get the answer to this question. This is bigger than President Trump. It is a very essence of our republican form of government, and it has to be done. And anybody that is not willing to stand up to do it, does not deserve to be in the office. It is that simple." 

President Trump then took the podium. He began with praise for Dr. Eastman and his plan to have Vice President Pence disrupt the count: Thank you very much, John. . . . John is one of the most brilliant lawyers in the country, and he looked at this and he said, “What an absolute disgrace that this can be happening to our Constitution.” . . . Because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. All he has to do, all this is, this is from the number one, or certainly one of the top, Constitutional lawyers in our country. He has the absolute right to do it. Before the Joint Session of Congress began, Vice President Pence publicly rejected President Trump and Dr. Eastman’s plan: “It is my considered judgment that my oath to support and defend the Constitution constrains me from claiming unilateral authority to determine which electoral votes should be counted and which should not.” At 1:00 pm, members of Congress began the Joint Session as required by the Twelfth Amendment and the Electoral Count Act. Soon after, President Trump finished his speech by urging his supporters to walk with him to the Capitol:

"Now, it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you, we’re going to walk down, we’re going to walk down. . . . [W]e’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones because the strong ones don’t need any of our help. We’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Avenue."

After President Trump’s speech, several hundred protesters left the rally and stormed the Capitol building. As the D.C. Circuit described it: Shortly after the speech, a large crowd of President Trump’s supporters—including some armed with weapons and wearing full tactical gear—marched to the Capitol and violently broke into the building to try and prevent Congress’s certification of the election results. The mob quickly overwhelmed law enforcement and scaled walls, smashed through barricades, and shattered windows to gain access to the interior of the Capitol. Police officers were attacked with chemical agents, beaten with flag poles and frozen water bottles, and crushed between doors and throngs of rioters.

*In this discussion, the Court relies solely on facts provided by Dr. Eastman and the Select Committee in their briefing and attached exhibits

Edited October 24 by Foosters

[Nivek 16923]

6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Imagine you were vetting someone applying for a job at your company.  You find out that in the past, he's worked closely with certain people.  You pick up the phone and call those people, and say "hey, this Don guy has applied for one of my managerial jobs.  You worked with him when he had a senior managerial position.  What did you think of him?"  And these are not clowns.  These are people who worked at a high level.  Many of them have a DECADES-LONG track record of high-level performance and genuine dedication to the enterprise (esp. the ones I bolded).  And this is what they tell you:

Mark Esper — Trump's Secretary of Defense
“Trump is not fit for office because he puts himself first and I think anybody running for office should put the country first.”

James Mattis — Trump's Secretary of Defense
“Trump's use of the Presidency to destroy trust in our election and to poison our respect for fellow citizens has been enabled by pseudo political leaders whose names will live in infamy as profiles in cowardice. Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people - does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us.”

John Kelly — Trump's Chief of Staff
“Trump is a person that has no idea what America stands for and has no idea what America is all about. He's a person who admires autocrats and murderous dictators. A person that has nothing but contempt for our democratic institutions, our Constitution, and the rule of law.”

Mick Mulvaney — Trump's Chief of Staff
“I am working hard to make sure that someone else is the nominee.”

Mark Milley — Trump's Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
“Trump is a wannabe dictator. We don't take an oath to an individual. We take an oath to the Constitution, and we take an oath to the idea that is America - and we're willing to die to protect it.”

John Bolton — Trump's National Security Advisor
“There will be celebrations in the Kremlin if Trump is elected in November. Putin thinks that he is an easy mark. Donald Trump wants Americans to treat him like North Koreans treat Kim Jong Un. Get ready.”

Cassidy Hutchinson — Trump's Assistant to Chief of Staff
“If Trump is elected president again in 2024, I do fear that it will be the last election where we're voting for democracy because, if he is elected again, I don't think we'll be voting under the same Constitution.”

Stephanie Grisham — Chief of Staff to Trump's Wife Melania
“I did not vote for Trump in 2020.”

Sarah Matthews — Trump's Deputy Press Secretary
“Trump has a history of making unhinged comments. He helped incite a deadly insurrection on our nation's Capitol.”

Anthony Scaramucci — Trump's Director of Communications
“Trump's going to make things rougher for people. He has already said he's going after his adversaries using the Department of Justice. When someone's telling you they're going to flex and be a dictator on day one and go after their adversaries, this is against the 200+ year experiment of America.”

Alyssa Farah Griffin — Trump's Director of Strategic Communications
“The reason that I cannot in good conscience endorse Donald Trump this year also has to do with the fact that he is walking away. Not just from keeping faith with the constitution on January 6th, but also from a commitment to fiscal responsibility, a commitment to the sanctity of life, a commitment to American leadership in the world.”

Bill Barr — Trump's Attorney General
“I have made clear that I strongly oppose Trump for the nomination and will not endorse Trump. One of the reasons I'm against Trump as the nominee is I don't think he's going to move the country forward.”

HR McMaster — Trump's National Security Advisor
“It would be terribly divisive for our country for Trump to run again.”

 

When you call someone's references, and that's the kind of thing they tell you -- not the usual wishy-washy "well....we had some challenges when we worked together....but we made it through" that you USUALLY hear when someone has a negative impression of a candidate -- YOU DO NOT HIRE HIM.  YOU WOULD BE A FUCKING MORON TO HIRE HIM.

So you are saying "The Best People" think he is dangerous and stupid?