Ukraine

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Saw “Winter on Fire” last night and it got me looking into Ukraine and what is happening their now and the history behind it.

Some good references:

“Maps: How Ukraine became Ukraine”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/03/09/maps-how-ukraine-became-ukraine/?utm_term=.e4c9df7d9e2f

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/this-map-explains-why-russia-is-invading-crimea-2014-3?source=images

[Redneck Mutha 8178]

[Eastwood 4394]

We had a long thread about this on Shaggy. Myself and a couple of other posters saw this as Putin's next large push to reclaim former Soviet satellites. Personally, I view the Ukraine situation as a complete foreign policy failure by the United States and NATO, as they were essentially turning their back on the Budapest Memorandum and emboldened Putin even further. We felt that we would be insulated from the type of political interference that Putin deployed in Ukraine and here we are today. Ukraine was a training ground and proof of concept for what happened in 2016. We should have backed Putin down militarily under the Budapest Memorandum and used that as an excuse to fast track Ukrainian membership to NATO, which would have been the beginning of the end of Russian influence and may have led to the ouster of Putin. Putin would have probably calculated, accurately, that NATO was still strong enough to openly defy him militarily and was still all-in on the defense of Europe. Instead, we punted, emboldened Putin, and now Russian influence is coursing through our political veins like poison. Sanctions don't work when the populace is already used to living in 3rd world conditions. The oligarchs are smart enough to dodge sanctions, the Russian people don't really care, the EU is still buying from Gazprom, which directly enriches Putin, so why should sanctions bother Putin?

The above video is Putin's goal for the US. We have to make sure it doesn't get to that point. Others, specifically a poster called DSA, formerly Derek S. Atkinson who was an obvious Russian troll, consistently stated that the annexation of Crimea was Russia's legal right, along with rights to ethnic Russian portions of Ukraine. Then the thread went down the WW2 rabbit hole, ethnic Germans, so on and so forth. The reality is that if we pull out of this Russian induced political nosedive, I don't see how war with Russia will be avoidable. Even if we try to sanction Russia to death, Putin will mobilize the moment his seat gets even the slightest bit warm because losing power in Russia is practically a death sentence. It will take a Cuban Missile Crisis style set of balls and political savvy to back Russia off without military intervention, at this point. 

[Pods 7637]

^ completely agree, that is a damn good post. NATO fucked up royally. We should have come down like a ton of bricks against Putin the second he moved against Ukraine and we should have made sure to telegraph that way in advance to prevent him moving against them. Russia should be out of SWIFT and all of Putin's assets should have been seized at a minimum.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Pods

[Nivek 17415]

With Afghanistan/Iraq going on a 3rd battle front was unlikely (NATO could have led the way).   Grabbing assets and liquidating them to support the opposition/sanctions with the help of our allies would have been a plan.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

Ukrainian prosecutors in the treason trial of ex-President Viktor Yanukovych have asked the court in Kyiv to sentence the pro-Russian former leader to 15 years in prison.

Prosecutors Ruslan Kravchenko and Maksym Krym made the request on August 16 during closing arguments of Yanukovych's trial in absentia.

Yanukovych has been charged with high treason, complicity in an aggressive war against Ukraine, and complicity in premeditated activities aimed at altering Ukraine's state borders.

He remains in Russia, where he fled in February 2014 amid rising unrest following a deadly crackdown against Euromaiden protesters by riot police in Kyiv.

The pro-European Union protests were triggered by Yanukovych's decision to scrap plans for a landmark trade accord with the EU.

Dozens of people were killed when the authorities attempted to clamp down on the protests.

Shortly after he fled, Russia seized Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula and fomented opposition to the central government in eastern Ukraine -- leading to an ongoing war between Ukrainian government forces and Russia-backed separatists that has killed more than 10,300 people.

After closing arguments on August 16, Judge Vladyslav Devyatko adjourned the trial until September 13.

[RayDog 682]

I still can't get over walking over the chalk outlines of bodies on the maidan.

[Fudge Nuggets 19455]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Ukrainian prosecutors in the treason trial of ex-President Viktor Yanukovych have asked the court in Kyiv to sentence the pro-Russian former leader to 15 years in prison.

Prosecutors Ruslan Kravchenko and Maksym Krym made the request on August 16 during closing arguments of Yanukovych's trial in absentia.

Yanukovych has been charged with high treason, complicity in an aggressive war against Ukraine, and complicity in premeditated activities aimed at altering Ukraine's state borders.

He remains in Russia, where he fled in February 2014 amid rising unrest following a deadly crackdown against Euromaiden protesters by riot police in Kyiv.

The pro-European Union protests were triggered by Yanukovych's decision to scrap plans for a landmark trade accord with the EU.

Dozens of people were killed when the authorities attempted to clamp down on the protests.

Shortly after he fled, Russia seized Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula and fomented opposition to the central government in eastern Ukraine -- leading to an ongoing war between Ukrainian government forces and Russia-backed separatists that has killed more than 10,300 people.

After closing arguments on August 16, Judge Vladyslav Devyatko adjourned the trial until September 13.

15 years in prison for high treason is bullshit.  Guy should be strung up and shot .

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

22 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

15 years in prison for high treason is bullshit.

Eh, really depends on the prison.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

On 8/5/2018 at 11:19 AM, Pods said:

^ completely agree, that is a damn good post. NATO fucked up royally. We should have come down like a ton of bricks against Putin the second he moved against Ukraine and we should have made sure to telegraph that way in advance to prevent him moving against them. Russia should be out of SWIFT and all of Putin's assets should have been seized at a minimum.

When an adversary has nukes your first move is always going to be affected by that fact.  The European Union has not a single pair of balls between any of it's members.  So ultimatum for decisive action was not to going to happen.

But what Eastwood proposed is exactly what NATO should have done.  Putin would be a de clawed cat now.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

On 8/5/2018 at 10:13 AM, Eastwood said:

The above video is Putin's goal for the US. We have to make sure it doesn't get to that point. Others, specifically a poster called DSA, formerly Derek S. Atkinson who was an obvious Russian troll, consistently stated that the annexation of Crimea was Russia's legal right, along with rights to ethnic Russian portions of Ukraine. Then the thread went down the WW2 rabbit hole, ethnic Germans, so on and so forth. The reality is that if we pull out of this Russian induced political nosedive, I don't see how war with Russia will be avoidable. Even if we try to sanction Russia to death, Putin will mobilize the moment his seat gets even the slightest bit warm because losing power in Russia is practically a death sentence. It will take a Cuban Missile Crisis style set of balls and political savvy to back Russia off without military intervention, at this point. 

If only there was a way to turn his digital influence machine against him world wide.  I’ve tried to imagine what an army of anti-Putin/pro-democracy trolls would look like but the problem with this approach is it would be unnatural, clog up the information space, and distract from healthy organic debate.

Seems like the best approach is to learn the Kremlin motives, talking points, and tactics so they’re easier to spot and identify, not just online but also from our political leaders and media.  The Russian influence has flooded the zone in the Trump echo chambers and I don’t know if those folks can be brought back to earth anytime soon.

Fucking sucks.

[HOOK'EMHOOAH 1610]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If only there was a way to turn his digital influence machine against him world wide.  I’ve tried to imagine what an army of anti-Putin/pro-democracy trolls would look like but the problem with this approach is it would be unnatural, clog up the information space, and distract from healthy organic debate.

Seems like the best approach is to learn the Kremlin motives, talking points, and tactics so they’re easier to spot and identify, not just online but also from our political leaders and media.  The Russian influence has flooded the zone in the Trump echo chambers and I don’t know if those folks can be brought back to earth anytime soon.

Fucking sucks.

That's why dotard wants a space force.