SEC Refs Suck

sith_horn · October 20

2 hours ago, dcar00 said:

2 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Another thing that came up was when Georgia made helm false start on a 4th and 1 by having the d line shift and the outside backer run at him simultaneously.

Is there a point where that movement becomes simulation and is called on the defense? What would that point be? I’d imagine there was an audible signal to initiate the shift so you have the sound plus movement of 4 players, one of which is coming right at you (though I assume he didn’t break the neutral zone?)

isn't that type of shift illegal now? Sark was all over the officials on it and we even burned a TO because of it.

I'm probably not the best at sorting out legalese, but here is what I could find:

SECTION 18. Encroachment and Offside - NCAA Football Rules Online

Spoiler

SECTION 18. Encroachment and Offside

Encroachment

ARTICLE 1.

After the ball is ready for play, encroachment occurs when an offensive player is in or beyond the neutral zone after the snapper touches or simulates (hand at or below his knees) touching the ball before the snap (Exception: When the ball is put in play, the snapper is not encroaching when he is in the neutral zone).

Offside

ARTICLE 2.

After the ball is ready for play, offside occurs (Rule 7-1-5) when a defensive player:

Is in or beyond the neutral zone when the ball is legally snapped;

Contacts an opponent beyond the neutral zone before the ball is snapped;

Contacts the ball before it is snapped;

Threatens an offensive lineman, causing an immediate reaction, before the ball is snapped (A.R. 7-1-3-V Note);

Crosses the neutral zone and charges toward a Team A back (A.R. 7-1-5-III); or

Is not behind his restraining line when the ball is legally free-kicked. Offside occurs when one or more players of the kicking team are not behind their restraining line when the ball is legally free-kicked (Exception: The kicker and holder are not offside when they are beyond their restraining line) (Rule 6-1-2).

Not 100% sure this next link is the correct one for A.R. 7-1-3-V Note)

American Football Rules IFAF Approved Ruling 7-1-3:V - sportscollaboration.com

Spoiler

American Football Rules IFAF Approved Ruling 7-1-3:V

V. A66, a restricted lineman between the snapper and the player on the end of the line, or A72, a restricted player on the end of the line of scrimmage:

Lifts a hand or hands from the ground immediately when threatened by B1, who is in the neutral zone. RULING: Blow the whistle immediately. Team B dead-ball foul,
offside. Penalty — Five yards from the succeeding spot. Lifts a hand or hands from the ground upon initial charge by B1, who (a) does not enter the neutral zone or (b) enters the neutral zone but does not threaten the position of A66 or A72. RULING: In both (a) and (b), blow the whistle immediately. Team A
dead-ball foul, false start. Penalty — Five yards from the succeeding spot. [Cited by 2-18-2-d, 7-1-2-b-3-a, 7-1-5-a-2]
NOTE: Before the snap, a team B player who enters the neutral zone may threaten a maximum of three Team A linemen. If the Team B player enters the neutral zone directly toward a Team A lineman, then that Team A player and the two adjacent linemen are considered to be threatened. If the Team B player enters the neutral zone directly toward a gap between two Team A lineman, then only those two Team A players are considered to be threatened.

Edited October 20 by sith_horn
Not sure why the strike-throughs occured after posting.

sith_horn · October 20

Tried to edit the strike-throughs out on the post above but time ran out. Going to try again here without posting the links which are in the post above or using spoilers.

SECTION 18. Encroachment and Offside

Encroachment

ARTICLE 1.

After the ball is ready for play, encroachment occurs when an offensive player is in or beyond the neutral zone after the snapper touches or simulates (hand ~~at or below his knees) touching the ball before the snap (Exception: When the ball is put in play, the snapper is not encroaching when he is in the neutral zone).~~

Offside

ARTICLE 2.

After the ball is ready for play, offside occurs (Rule 7-1-5) when a defensive player:

Is in or beyond the neutral zone when the ball is legally snapped; Contacts an opponent beyond the neutral zone before the ball is snapped; Contacts the ball before it is snapped; Threatens an offensive lineman, causing an immediate reaction, before the ball is snapped (A.R. 7-1-3-V Note); Crosses the neutral zone and charges toward a Team A back (A.R. 7-1-5-III); or Is not behind his restraining line when the ball is legally free-kicked. Offside occurs when one or more players of the kicking team are not behind their restraining line when the ball is legally free-kicked (Exception: The kicker and holder are not offside when they are beyond their restraining line) (Rule 6-1-2).

American Football Rules IFAF Approved Ruling 7-1-3:V

V. A66, a restricted lineman between the snapper and the player on the end of the line, or A72, a restricted player on the end of the line of scrimmage:

Lifts a hand or hands from the ground immediately when threatened by B1, who is in the neutral zone. RULING: Blow the whistle immediately. Team B dead-ball foul,
offside. Penalty — Five yards from the succeeding spot. Lifts a hand or hands from the ground upon initial charge by B1, who (a) does not enter the neutral zone or (b) enters the neutral zone but does not threaten the position of A66 or A72. RULING: In both (a) and (b), blow the whistle immediately. Team A
dead-ball foul, false start. Penalty — Five yards from the succeeding spot. [Cited by 2-18-2-d, 7-1-2-b-3-a, 7-1-5-a-2]
NOTE: Before the snap, a team B player who enters the neutral zone may threaten a maximum of three Team A linemen. If the Team B player enters the neutral zone directly toward a Team A lineman, then that Team A player and the two adjacent linemen are considered to be threatened. If the Team B player enters the neutral zone directly toward a gap between two Team A lineman, then only those two Team A players are considered to be threatened.

Edited October 20 by sith_horn
Weird. Just go to the links.

Tex Long · October 24

One of the major complaints about football officiating is accountability. A proposal in this area has been to utilize officials who actually are professionals, and who would be held accountable for "bad" calls, with possible loss of pay or even position as a potential result of failure.

The usual rejection of this proposal is that it would just be too darned expensive to pay full-time refs, so we gave to rely on part-time "hobbyist" officials.

Since this thread's (current) title mentions SEC refs, let's keep it to that conference.

How much do SEC refs get paid currently? I would guess that there are a few positions for administrative or supervisory personnel already, and that refs receive some sort of travel & living expense payments as well. We can assume that these amounts would necessarily continue, but any sort of "honoraria" are involved, we can probably ignore those costs.

What would it take to hire and manage those 14+ refs for every game?

Fondren & Main · October 24

The NCAA:

We are making billions.

Also The NCAA:

We can't afford to pay full time referees.

Tex Long · October 24

27 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

The NCAA:

We are making billions.

Also The NCAA:

We can't afford to pay full time referees.

Ultimately, "un-paid" refs are getting jollies one way or another - prestige, freebies, whatever. Theoretically, they could be "fired" for failures, which is a fairly small threat. But not even that seems to be done, at least not openly and with reporting.

To me, besides the idea of "pro" reffing, there is an element of criminality that would not necessarily be addressed with full-time refs... Gambling rears its head, subsumed under the general term "Vegas". Big sports books try to even out their bets and live on the vig. That's not always possible, and it seems to be a near certainty that when the bets fall heavily one way, a crooked ref will be required to make sure the outcome goes the "right" way. I don't know about NFL refs being professionals, but anyone who has watched NFL games more than a couple of times has seen calls that are obviously wrong and either aren't or just can't be reviewed or are reviewed and not corrected. I don't see full-time refereeing keeping that from happening.

I suspect the DPI call in the Georgia-Texas game was a result of exactly that sort of thing. The guy who made the call was way late throwing his hanky, probably because he thought he needed to prevent Texas from scoring. Between the announcers carrying on about the totally shit call and the fans going nuts, the word came down from wherever to not push the issue.

Meanwhile... how much would it actually cost the SEC to have full-time refs for football?

Jkwellborn · October 24

See, I actually wonder if the flag was thrown because the ref thought Barron was going to score. I only say that because of how late it came in.

Tex Long · October 24

3 hours ago, Jkwellborn said:

See, I actually wonder if the flag was thrown because the ref thought Barron was going to score. I only say that because of how late it came in.

Took him wayyyyy too long to throw it, no doubt.

Hpara759 · October 26

The crew working Ol Miss and ou

satyanash · October 26

Oregon-Illinois crew is already working the outcome in favour of the Ducks

Edited October 26 by satyanash

Knoxtnhorn · October 26

I absolutely cannot believe that hold call on Helm. I mean, I try not to be that guy that blames the refs, but holy shit. And we thought things would even out after leaving the Big 12.

staboner · October 26

1 minute ago, Knoxtnhorn said:

I absolutely cannot believe that hold call on Helm. I mean, I try not to be that guy that blames the refs, but holy shit. And we thought things would even out after leaving the Big 12.

didn't almost the exact same everything here happen in the OU game? helm pulled around and blocked a guy to the ground, helm fell on him / they fell, and it was a holding call. wtf

Pato del Muerto · October 26

In other news, in bama/mizzou the refs blew a play dead for delay but the bama edge went ahead and drilled cook in the back, and they actually called the unsportsmanlike.

DaggerHorns · October 27

Not sure if y’all saw it but how many times the clock was supposed to be running when Vandy had the ball late in the 4th but it was stopped. Aside from the clock issues, there were excessive calls on us all fucking night. Fucking mother whore shit.

Fondren & Main · October 27

Refs are horrific across all levels. Wow.

Kirby was right. I mean he assaulted an opposing player and the refs missed it. Just unreal.

alincoln · October 27

Holy shit that officiating. The fix is definitely in and will cost us a game.

Fondren & Main · October 27

It really is incredible how poor officiating is. It’s not just our games either. The NFL the other night…I mean does the fucking QB need to go to the hospital with a neck injury for a ref to call a penalty. Our crew has no idea what holding is. Every single play gets wiped out…

AUS-97HORN · October 27

5 minutes ago, alincoln said:

Holy shit that officiating. The fix is definitely in and will cost us a game.

its not a "fix"

its horrible accross the board in all conferences. almost every major game has had some god awful calls that on replay are shown to be clearly wrong. and because we have 100 years of history of penalties not being "reviewable" for the most part, the fucking conferences and by extension the refs, are now allowed to just get the call wrong on the field and be "punished" in a double super secret probation kind of way.

i know the tv guys dont want the games to be extended for an extra 10 mins on penalty reviews but its gotten to the point where so much money is on the line, hell, JOBS are on the line, that these discretionary-non-reviewable calls that are clearly shown to be bullshit on replay need to start being reviewed.

maybe not all of them, but give a coach his normal up to 3 challenges, but also give them 2 special "golden" challenges that ANYTHING can be reviewed and overturned if replay clearly shows it, up to and including penalties that were called on the wrong team and the review gives them the power to overturn a call, and if needed 180 degree review it and switch the penalty if needed.

example would be that Cowboys game earlier in the year where Dallas was the team that the reply showed clearly facemasked the opponent, yet the facemask was called on the other team.

thats exactly the kind of call that a golden review can overturn and switch the call resulting in a 30 yard difference plus a first down if applicable.

dcar00 · October 27

1 hour ago, AUS-97HORN said:

its not a "fix"

its horrible accross the board in all conferences. almost every major game has had some god awful calls that on replay are shown to be clearly wrong. and because we have 100 years of history of penalties not being "reviewable" for the most part, the fucking conferences and by extension the refs, are now allowed to just get the call wrong on the field and be "punished" in a double super secret probation kind of way.

i know the tv guys dont want the games to be extended for an extra 10 mins on penalty reviews but its gotten to the point where so much money is on the line, hell, JOBS are on the line, that these discretionary-non-reviewable calls that are clearly shown to be bullshit on replay need to start being reviewed.

maybe not all of them, but give a coach his normal up to 3 challenges, but also give them 2 special "golden" challenges that ANYTHING can be reviewed and overturned if replay clearly shows it, up to and including penalties that were called on the wrong team and the review gives them the power to overturn a call, and if needed 180 degree review it and switch the penalty if needed.

example would be that Cowboys game earlier in the year where Dallas was the team that the reply showed clearly facemasked the opponent, yet the facemask was called on the other team.

thats exactly the kind of call that a golden review can overturn and switch the call resulting in a 30 yard difference plus a first down if applicable.

the problem is it only goes one way on us. ESPECIALLY, PI and Holding. There is holding and fucking PI on on every play yet it is only called on us and only on big plays for us. I'm not sure how you can't believe there is some ridiculousness going on.

dcar00 · October 27

2 hours ago, staboner said:

didn't almost the exact same everything here happen in the OU game? helm pulled around and blocked a guy to the ground, helm fell on him / they fell, and it was a holding call. wtf

I believe there is a specific push by our opponent coaches to tell officials to look out for us holding. It is too fucking obvious at this point. you are telling me Vanderbilt NEVER held all game in which ticky tack holding or even phantom holding was called?

Hookem10 · October 27

The fix is definitely in. No way sec lets us come in and win championship right away. We’d need to beat all these teams like a drum for the refs not to make a difference. And that’s not gonna happen after seeing them keep vandy in this game. I’ve noticed since first sec game. Looks like we’re gonna take our lumps this year unless coaches start getting loud and fined about it.

GreenspointTexas · October 27

How in the fuck did they miss the PI on the long pass to Wingo ?

Jkwellborn · October 27

I believe there is a specific push by our opponent coaches to tell officials to look out for us holding. It is too fucking obvious at this point. you are telling me Vanderbilt NEVER held all game in which ticky tack holding or even phantom holding was called?

I would constantly point those things out to the refs. They will get called.

AUS-97HORN · October 27

wrng thread

Edited October 27 by AUS-97HORN

GreenspointTexas · October 27

Its def. arguable that the refs tried to sway this game

dcar00 · October 27

31 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Its def. arguable that the refs tried to sway this game

the DPI called on us on 4th down was ridiculous. the vandy guy grabbed our DB. of course the same on against Wingo goes uncalled.

It was obvious.

this game could have easily been a 14 point win, even with Ewers being an idiot, but ref fuckery kept them in it.

Drifterwood · October 27

If we were ever going to get more of a fair shake from SEC refs compared to the Big 12, that probably went out the window last week

Hookem10 · October 27

Honestly the pass interference calls I can look past. Judgement calls that I saw with my own eyes. Could have gone either way and fine. The holding calls and targeting at the end were bullshit. Holding happens every play, for both teams. The bullshit was we got called like 6 or 7 times and they got called once or twice. If the refs are gonna call it that much than both teams should be closer to equal calls if that’s the case.

BurntOrange&White · October 27

I want to see video of the Banks holding calls. One seemed shitty at the time.

Helm didn’t hold. Just a dog shit call

TrashMaster G · October 27

1 hour ago, BurntOrange&White said:

I want to see video of the Banks holding calls. One seemed shitty at the time.

Helm didn’t hold. Just a dog shit call

My takeaway from that call is that if I am a DL engaged with a blocker, I just need to fall down and take the offensive guy down on top of me and the flag will come out for offensive holding.

We need to teach our DLine to try that tactic.

Rimbo · October 27

"YOU CANNOT ESCAPE ME!"

TexasGolf · October 27

22 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

"YOU CANNOT ESCAPE ME!"

Scholz · October 27

15 hours ago, GreenspointTexas said:

How in the fuck did they miss the PI on the long pass to Wingo ?

LTtxfan · October 31

Nivek · October 31

When they review only what was called, they let the refs frame the discussion. What is absent is the glaring mistakes the other team made and how the enforcement was applied unevenly.

Hagbard Celine · October 31

how much of the captured video is stored then shared with each team or the league?

there were several early flags with no replay

belmont and the tower have always taken the high road in public and the 1st year in the league doesn't seem to be the right time to get medievial about this topic

so back to the question - how much is saved - who has access to it - and can a team give it to whoever they want?

a full multi-angle breakdown of ever play documenting all by-the-book calls made and not made, for both teams, would seem appropriate

the 995ers seem like the appropriate platform for this

Fondren & Main · October 31

Our players do a poor job of selling fouls. Wingo got interfered with and didn’t sell it at all.

thunderlounge · October 31

25 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

Our players do a poor job of selling fouls. Wingo got interfered with and didn’t sell it at all.

If only we had someone around the program who could teach them a few things about that.

Oh, wait!

satyanash · November 2

This was called a fumble on the field but overturned...

Jkwellborn · November 2

This was called a fumble on the field but overturned...

Looks like an incomplete pass to me.

JBJ · November 2

He started a football move, but did not complete it before ball came out. Incomplete.

Edited November 2 by JBJ

Pato del Muerto · November 3

Refs appear to be saving aggy from their own idiocy.

1) end of first half sc wr is concussed on a reception. Not only do they not stop to review for targeting, they don’t even stop for the injury and sc has to burn its last time out to tend to the woosy player.

2) pass overthrown in the end zone hits the ground, then aggy safety arrives late and hits sc wr. Judgement but no-call and fairly late and the ball was so overthrown the wr never even made an effort for it

3) just now sc 4th and 1 tries the hard count, gets a dt to jump, guard sticks his hand out, no call.

Pato del Muerto · November 3

So far it’s not enough

Nivek · November 3

He started a football move, but did not complete it before ball came out. Incomplete.

Looks like a fumble to me.

DFW Horn · November 3

18 hours ago, JBJ said:

He started a football move, but did not complete it before ball came out. Incomplete.

Is a "football move" comprised of possession + 1 or 2 steps?

I forget. Easy to get this one wrong at game speed.

HenryJames · November 3

15 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

1) end of first half sc wr is concussed on a reception. Not only do they not stop to review for targeting, they don’t even stop for the injury and sc has to burn its last time out to tend to the woosy player.

2) pass overthrown in the end zone hits the ground, then aggy safety arrives late and hits sc wr. Judgement but no-call and fairly late and the ball was so overthrown the wr never even made an effort for it

Aggie DBs did dirty shit the entire game.

JBJ · November 3

1 hour ago, DFW Horn said:

Is a "football move" comprised of possession + 1 or 2 steps?

I forget. Easy to get this one wrong at game speed.

Possession and football move is a catch. A football move is any common action that you typically do while carrying the ball. Turn upfield, extend for a first, tuck the ball, swap hands, stiff arm a defender.

He caught the football and went to tuck it and turn upfield, but lost it before he had the football it tucked or had turned upfield. So I'd call that incomplete.

Edited November 3 by JBJ

BurntOrange&White · November 3

3 hours ago, JBJ said:

Possession and football move is a catch. A football move is any common action that you typically do while carrying the ball. Turn upfield, extend for a first, tuck the ball, swap hands, stiff arm a defender.

He caught the football and went to tuck it and turn upfield, but lost it before he had the football it tucked or had turned upfield. So I'd call that incomplete.

Looked like he caught it, tucked it, then turned up field, lost it. Should be fumble. Ref sympathizer.

satyanash · November 10

Unspeakably horrendous officiating in the CU-Texas Tech game. McGuire called out the biased refs by name postgame and will likely be fined by the Big 12.

Rholl · November 10

Todays game….low block on defensive player?? can someone explain what happened…… to me a Texas lb’er went low on Fl pulling guard….. can you not “wreck the puller” anymore? Oline can cut but defensive players cant?

IDIOTsavant · November 10

28 minutes ago, satyanash said:

Unspeakably horrendous officiating in the CU-Texas Tech game. McGuire called out the biased refs by name postgame and will likely be fined by the Big 12.

Fuck Tech for eternity for bitching about not getting a holding call…

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