Pipeline Explosion in Deer Park

[Hate 20082]

For shits and giggles I looked at the site of the explosion in Google maps. Using the past images feature, I was able to see that the pipeline was installed somewhere between 1995-2002. The houses that were near the explosion were not there at the time. Let’s assume that it was 2002 when the pipeline was installed. That means the pipeline existed without issue for at least 22 years including during a period of extensive construction near the site. Like I said, there is no reason to over react to this incident. 

[gsoda3 3212]

40 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Correct but I’d call it the energy industry. O&G is limited to upstream. 

In my world it's officially (Bloomberg, Morningstar, SP) classified as the Energy sector with industries referred to as O&G Integrated, O&G Midstream, O&G Refining and Marketing, etc. 

Most of the time though (research reports, notes, discussions) the phrase "oil and gas" is used to denote that industry vs renewables and alts.  

 

 

 

[Captainant 27239]

Just now, Hate said:

For shits and giggles I looked at the site of the explosion in Google maps. Using the past images feature, I was able to see that the pipeline was installed somewhere between 1995-2002. The houses that were near the explosion were not there at the time. Let’s assume that it was 2002 when the pipeline was installed. That means the pipeline existed without issue for at least 22 years including during a period of extensive construction near the site. Like I said, there is no reason to over react to this incident. 

I suppose so, but I just don't understand not improving/hardening access as the surrounding area became more residential. I understand your point of "well it's been fine up till now", but isn't a part of being a professional looking to mitigate future risk and potential for operational issues like this? Nothing insane like fort knox like fatty would assert - just four concrete bollards every 90 degrees around the valve to prevent heavy collisions with a very vulnerable piece of equipment. 

I don't see that as overreaction, and it's surprising to see it framed as such

[royiv 9123]

31 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

About as much as the discussion hardening every pig trap and riser across America because clownworld. 

The rare occasion I agree with you.

[Rex Kramer 1274]

3 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

In my world it's officially (Bloomberg, Morningstar, SP) classified as the Energy sector with industries referred to as O&G Integrated, O&G Midstream, O&G Refining and Marketing, etc. 

Most of the time though (research reports, notes, discussions) the phrase "oil and gas" is used to denote that industry vs renewables and alts.  

 

 

 

I’m in the industry (somewhat; most income comes tangential to industry) and we refer to ETPs of the world as midstream or pipeline companies. They aren’t in my primary or side gig world - both of which are focused on financing or investing directly in upstream. That is oil and gas. ETP and Williams are not oil and gas. 

[elfenix 34161]

TIL literal gas stations are not part of the O&G insustry

[sidis 9686]

i work in the industry and routinely provide clarification on industry custom and practice in o&g.

i have to say that in my years on surly, debating whether or not midstream and downstream are part of o&g may actually be the peak of utter fucking stupidity in the debates that exist here. anyone that does not think that midstream and downstream are part of the o&g industry need to have their fucking heads examined because that is genuinely some of the stupidest shit i have ever read...and a bizarre hill to destroy your credibility over.

midstream companies are not just tariff chargers. they often purchase commodities at the wellhead under purchase contracts where title and risk of loss transfers prior to them gathering/compressing/processing/treating/transporting. dcp, oneok, etp, enterprise, kinder, and on and on and on all have thousands of these contracts. they also act as service providers but that doesn't make them part of o&g for fuck's sake. y-grade ngl transportation from processing plants to mt. belvieu or conway for fractionation is absofuckinglutely part of the o&g industry as anyone that is not a complete dipshit knows. e&p, field services, midstream, and downstream are all different but all part of o&g. i genuinely cannot believe this is something being debated here.

weird that the oil and gas journal's front page sections out general, e&p, drilling & production, midstream refining & processing, and midstream/downstream pipelines and transportation right there on their homepage.

https://www.ogj.com/

here, a federal government agency violates rex's law of being an idiot by laying out an overview of the oil and gas industry beyond e&p:

https://www.epa.gov/natural-gas-star-program/overview-oil-and-natural-gas-industry

dumbshits at deloitte's oil and gas industry outlook includes focus on midstream and downstream? how?

https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/industry/oil-and-gas/oil-and-gas-industry-outlook.html

library of congress overview of oil and gas includes what?

https://guides.loc.gov/oil-and-gas-industry

even a cite for idiots like investopedia understands:

https://www.investopedia.com/investing/oil-gas-industry-overview/

Quote

The oil and gas industry is broken down into three segments: upstream, midstream, and downstream.

Upstream, or exploration and production (E&P) companies, find reservoirs and drill oil and gas wells.

Midstream companies are responsible for transportation from the wells to refineries.

Downstream companies are responsible for refining and the sale of the finished products.

Drilling companies contract their services to E&P companies to extract oil and gas.

Well-servicing companies conduct related construction and maintenance activities on well sites

more basic cites for idiots:

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/career/oil-gas-primer/

https://www.oilandgasiq.com/strategy-management-and-information/articles/oil-gas-industry-an-introduction

https://www.petrosync.com/blog/oil-and-gas-industry/

 

truly bizarre that this is being debated.

[Captainant 27239]

Sidenote, I was curious on what the safety reg is for pipeline valve safety and found the following:

https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/interp/pi-12-0008

In a letter to the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) dated August 9, 2012, the Associated Safety Consultants (ASC), Inc., requested an interpretation of the applicability of the Federal pipeline safety regulations at 49 CFR 192.317(b) to an aboveground gas transmission line or main.  Specifically, ASC asks PHMSA's interpretation of how a 'safe distance' is defined or determined, and what would constitute an effective barricade?

Section 192.317(b) reads as follows:

(b) Each aboveground transmission line or main, not located offshore or in inland navigable water areas, must be protected from accidental damage by vehicular traffic or other similar causes, either by being placed at a safe distance from the traffic or by installing barricades. 

PHMSA has not adopted general criteria to judge the safety of distances and effective barricades separating aboveground gas pipeline facilities from vehicular traffic.  Therefore, a safe distance and effective barricade would be whatever a reasonable and prudent pipeline operator would conclude is safe under the site specific circumstances, considering relevant factors such as the speed limit, the direction of traffic, the terrain, and any natural barriers.

 

So there's no actual rules or regulations on what is required, just as long as it passes the gut check of the operator. The valve is 100 feet from a 50mph road (45 posted, but cmon its Houston yall), surrounded by gravel. A chainlink fence seems sub-par at best.

[PTINS 3438]

On 9/16/2024 at 12:55 PM, faps said:

Seems like they could've shut an upstream valve by now.

On 9/16/2024 at 1:08 PM, Evil Bill Obrien said:

Yeah whoever is running this pipeline sure is taking their sweet time getting it shut off…

On 9/16/2024 at 1:31 PM, Rip76 said:

Agreed.

"Y-Grade NGL is an un-fractionated hydrocarbon mixture comprising ethane, propane, butane, isobutane, and pentane plus. Pentane plus comprises pentane, isopentane, and/or heavier weight hydrocarbons, for example hydrocarbon compounds containing at least one of C5 through C8+."

Y-Grade is the mixture of Natural Gas Liquids (NGL) that are removed in a Gas Processing Plant.  The processing plants are located proximate to the wells producing the gas (West Texas for example), and the recovered NGL are transported via pipelines to the fractionation plants (FRACTIONal + distillATION = FRACTIONATION) where the the multi-component Y-Grade stream is separated into the 5 "purity products" (these are some of the tall towers you see in petrochemical complexes).

Mont Belvieu, TX, north of Baytown, is the largest concentration of NGL fractionation plants and underground storage of NGL's in the world, with a small cartel of midstream companies with fractionation plants that include hundreds of underground storage caverns. The underground caverns are created by "solution mining" tear-drop shaped caverns (cavities) out of huge underground "salt plugs". A cavern a nominal, 2,000 foot deep, 1,000 feet tall, 100-200 ft in diameter cavity holding ~ 1,000,000 barrels, or 50,000,000 gallons of product. Envision downtown Houston, turned upside down so the tall buildings extend into the ground, and now fill all those deep depressions full of flammable hydrocarbons.

Hundreds of gas processing plants transport NGL from across the country through multiple pipelines to the various fractionation facilities along the Gulf Coast from Corpus Christi to Mississippi, where hundreds of more pipelines connect to the various refineries and petrochemical plants along the coast.  Each pipeline will a series of block valves along the route, with the number and locations of valves dependent on a number of factors. Whether the pipelines are privately owned or common carrier pipelines, they are all governed by government and industry standards that allow them function properly every day, without any discernible impact to the general public.

"Nothing is fool proof, because fools are so ingenious." 

Apparently a motor vehicle hit one of those above ground block valve locations near Deer Park. 

On 9/16/2024 at 6:53 PM, Captainant said:

Pipelines hold a shitton, local news said the pipe was was 1400PSI at the time of the rupture. And the rupture happened at one of the pipeline isolation valves so the fire is getting fed by two multi-mile mile segments of isolated 20" diameter pipe.

Deer Park mayor said it's likely gonna burn through the night. 

Thank God the EPA has been stripped of its authority and power and we get to enjoy the free spicy air in H-town

Yes, once the pipeline is breached, all you can do is isolate the section with the breach. If the product in normally a vapor at room temperature and pressure, it will vent until all the high pressure liquids have vaporized and dissipated naturally, or it finds an ignition source. If the product is normally a liquid at room temperature and pressure, it will leak until the leak is repaired or until all the leak stops flowing. It will take a long time for a Y-grade NGL pipeline to completely vaporize, as the heavier fractions have similar characteristics to gasoline and vaporize slowly. Once the area is evacuated, letting the pipeline burn out is the safest option, because it won't explode. 

Fuck the EPA. Natural Gas Liquids are the last place you want a EPA bureaucrat involved.

NGL industry pipelines operate under the umbrella of the Department of Transportation and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. Whether the pipelines are privately owned or common carrier pipelines, they are built and operated to government standards and Industry guidelines, including the Gas Processors Association. The GPA is an industry led group that has been a forum for sharing best practices for over 100 years ...  

Enhancing the viability of natural gas, natural gas liquids and crude oil

Shaping the U.S. midstream energy sector since 1921, GPA Midstream sets standards for natural gas liquids; develops simple and reproducible test methods to define the industry’s raw materials and products; manages a worldwide cooperative research program; provides a voice for our industry on Capitol Hill; and is the go-to resource for technical reports and publications. The annual GPA Midstream Convention is the premiere meeting place for midstream professionals from around the globe.

On 9/16/2024 at 7:20 PM, Captainant said:

Dude you can't expect these O&G companies to do inspections and maintenance on their equipment! Do you know how much that costs??? Just ask centerpoint

Please, don't ever confuse a real Midstream company with a refinery or chemical plant, or an exploration and production company, or for god's sake, a utility.

Every day, trained and experienced personnel take the most volatile hydrocarbon products known to man, boost it to a pressure high enough that a leak would cut you half, and for good measure, put it in large steel tanks, and add heat. They work alongside 25,000 HP gas turbines every day, that have jet engines on one side of a shaft connected to a compressor that boosts 250,000,000 FT3 of gas per day to pressures exceeding 1,000 pounds per square inch. Everything is mechanical, and eventually, if not maintained properly, it will break.

Our job is never so important that we cannot take the time to do it safely.

If I don't have the time to do it right the first time, when will I have the time to fix it.

We're a technical company, so technical people are going to run it.

Sorry guys, this for the adults for which math makes your heart go pitter-patter.

On 9/16/2024 at 10:13 PM, pacman said:

Well, you would like to think any exposed infrastructure are protected by concrete barriers of some sort, if your fence is too pussy to take on a white suv. But, I know these billionaire o&g types can't afford $500 in concrete and materials.

On 9/16/2024 at 10:19 PM, Brisketexan said:

There’s a natural gas valve for the local distribution system near us (I drive by it). A steel pipe cage - pipe looks to be 6-inch OD - was built around it to protect from a vehicle strike. And I would expect it to work except against a really heavy truck.

The valve stations and other above facilities are usually protected by chain link fences, to keep people out, or steel pipes filled with concrete, to keep bigger things out.

A barrier built to protect from a tractor with a blade may not stop a bull dozer, or an SUV.

Odds are the pipeline and other facilities were built well before the Wal-Mart.

On 9/17/2024 at 7:23 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I would bet the crisis manual item #1 is to release as little information as possible to limit liability claims. This will be the priority of the company. 

Wouldn’t be surprised if those in the evacuation zone are being asked to sign a release today in exchange for $5,000. We want to help you get back on your feet ASAP but I can only do that if you sign this 10 page document right this second.

Not to mention PI lawyers also descending on them which is who I would sign with.

There is ample evidence that ignorant (lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about a particular thing) people will make statements of fact without knowing the facts. 

I would expect the company shared the pertinent information with law enforcement, fire departments, etc. Those governmental entities would have the responsibilities to share information with those directly impacted by the incident, and with the general public as deemed appropriate. There is nothing that is beneficial with sharing unconfirmed information or theories with reporters and PI attorneys. 

10 hours ago, Captainant said:

still begs the question: how are there not more bollards or other protective measures to keep heavy things away from such a vulnerable and critical valve? In a residential area no less? They just throwing up a chainlink fence and calling it good?

Go look at the "Green Belt" in your neighborhood. Odds are it is a pipeline right of way, laser straight with well defined inflection points. And those neighbors paid a premium to live next to it!

The pipelines have beneficial use of the right of ways on the land they traverse, by virtue of legal documents agreed to by the landowner and the operating company. Maintenance of the right of way, and everything on it, is the responsibility of the operating company. The operating companies have no rights or responsibilities for anything outside of the right of way. 

Most of the pipelines and related facilities were built away from population centers many years ago. They were built to the standards at the time construction, including limitations on the maximum allowable operating pressures relative to the population density at that time. As the cities have expanded, they have encroached on that pre-existing infrastructure. Relocating and rerouting pipelines happens occasionally, but that is not the norm.  A cultivated field that had corn or wheat for 50 years is now a subdivision with streets and roads and houses and driveways and swimming pools and water lines and power lines.

Whether you agree or not, in my example, the financial burden to remedy the situation lies with the developer and the government entity that approved the encroachment. Whether you agree or not, there are practical limits as to what could and should be done, on a case by case basis, including relocating the pipeline.

There were over 40,000 auto related fatalities in 2023. Every entity in government and civil society with a means to change that has accepted that fatalities are unavoidable, and acceptable. We could not afford to drive cars, or fly airplanes, that are 100% "safe."

You want safe and protective measures?

What is the probability that a titanium blade on a steam turbine spinning at 4,000 rpm could break off, penetrate the turbine shell, penetrate the turbine building, fly 1,000's of feet, and penetrate a 4 1/2 foot thick reinforced-concrete secondary containment building (build with a lattice of ~ 15 layers of 2' steel rebar), penetrate a 2 foot thick reinforced-concrete primary containment building, and penetrate a 14" thick steel nuclear reactor vessel?

I don't know either, but the Nuclear Regulatory Commission thought is was high enough that the orientation of the turbines should be turned 90 degrees relative to the nuclear reactor. I guess they were right because it's never happened.

[Rex Kramer 1274]

34 minutes ago, elfenix said:

TIL literal gas stations are not part of the O&G insustry

They’re not. At all. Is this real life?

22 minutes ago, sidis said:

i work in the industry and routinely provide clarification on industry custom and practice in o&g.

i have to say that in my years on surly, debating whether or not midstream and downstream are part of o&g may actually be the peak of utter fucking stupidity in the debates that exist here. anyone that does not think that midstream and downstream are part of the o&g industry need to have their fucking heads examined because that is genuinely some of the stupidest shit i have ever read...and a bizarre hill to destroy your credibility over.

midstream companies are not just tariff chargers. they often purchase commodities at the wellhead under purchase contracts where title and risk of loss transfers prior to them gathering/compressing/processing/treating/transporting. dcp, oneok, etp, enterprise, kinder, and on and on and on all have thousands of these contracts. they also act as service providers but that doesn't make them part of o&g for fuck's sake. y-grade ngl transportation from processing plants to mt. belvieu or conway for fractionation is absofuckinglutely part of the o&g industry as anyone that is not a complete dipshit knows. e&p, field services, midstream, and downstream are all different but all part of o&g. i genuinely cannot believe this is something being debated here.

weird that the oil and gas journal's front page sections out general, e&p, drilling & production, midstream refining & processing, and midstream/downstream pipelines and transportation right there on their homepage.

https://www.ogj.com/

here, a federal government agency violates rex's law of being an idiot by laying out an overview of the oil and gas industry beyond e&p:

https://www.epa.gov/natural-gas-star-program/overview-oil-and-natural-gas-industry

dumbshits at deloitte's oil and gas industry outlook includes focus on midstream and downstream? how?

https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/insights/industry/oil-and-gas/oil-and-gas-industry-outlook.html

library of congress overview of oil and gas includes what?

https://guides.loc.gov/oil-and-gas-industry

even a cite for idiots like investopedia understands:

https://www.investopedia.com/investing/oil-gas-industry-overview/

more basic cites for idiots:

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/career/oil-gas-primer/

https://www.oilandgasiq.com/strategy-management-and-information/articles/oil-gas-industry-an-introduction

https://www.petrosync.com/blog/oil-and-gas-industry/

 

truly bizarre that this is being debated.

What the fuck ever dude. ETP is not a fucking oil and gas company. It’s a pipeline company. Centerpoint sure as fuck isn’t an oil and gas company. Provide more links. You’re fucking way off base. 

[elfenix 34161]

Car dealers aren't part of the automobile industry!

[wildcat09 29144]

45 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I’m in the industry (somewhat; most income comes tangential to industry) and we refer to ETPs of the world as midstream or pipeline companies. They aren’t in my primary or side gig world - both of which are focused on financing or investing directly in upstream. That is oil and gas. ETP and Williams are not oil and gas. 

Rex, I promise you nobody gives a shit. 

[Captainant 27239]

3 minutes ago, PTINS said:

Y-Grade is the mixture of Natural Gas Liquids (NGL) that are removed in a Gas Processing Plant.  The processing plants are located proximate to the wells producing the gas (West Texas for example), and the recovered NGL are transported via pipelines to the fractionation plants (FRACTIONal + distillATION = FRACTIONATION) where the the multi-component Y-Grade stream is separated into the 5 "purity products" (these are some of the tall towers you see in petrochemical complexes).

Mont Belvieu, TX, north of Baytown, is the largest concentration of NGL fractionation plants and underground storage of NGL's in the world, with a small cartel of midstream companies with fractionation plants that include hundreds of underground storage caverns. The underground caverns are created by "solution mining" tear-drop shaped caverns (cavities) out of huge underground "salt plugs". A cavern a nominal, 2,000 foot deep, 1,000 feet tall, 100-200 ft in diameter cavity holding ~ 1,000,000 barrels, or 50,000,000 gallons of product. Envision downtown Houston, turned upside down so the tall buildings extend into the ground, and now fill all those deep depressions full of flammable hydrocarbons.

Hundreds of gas processing plants transport NGL from across the country through multiple pipelines to the various fractionation facilities along the Gulf Coast from Corpus Christi to Mississippi, where hundreds of more pipelines connect to the various refineries and petrochemical plants along the coast.  Each pipeline will a series of block valves along the route, with the number and locations of valves dependent on a number of factors. Whether the pipelines are privately owned or common carrier pipelines, they are all governed by government and industry standards that allow them function properly every day, without any discernible impact to the general public.

"Nothing is fool proof, because fools are so ingenious." 

Apparently a motor vehicle hit one of those above ground block valve locations near Deer Park. 

Yes, once the pipeline is breached, all you can do is isolate the section with the breach. If the product in normally a vapor at room temperature and pressure, it will vent until all the high pressure liquids have vaporized and dissipated naturally, or it finds an ignition source. If the product is normally a liquid at room temperature and pressure, it will leak until the leak is repaired or until all the leak stops flowing. It will take a long time for a Y-grade NGL pipeline to completely vaporize, as the heavier fractions have similar characteristics to gasoline and vaporize slowly. Once the area is evacuated, letting the pipeline burn out is the safest option, because it won't explode. 

Fuck the EPA. Natural Gas Liquids are the last place you want a EPA bureaucrat involved.

NGL industry pipelines operate under the umbrella of the Department of Transportation and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission. Whether the pipelines are privately owned or common carrier pipelines, they are built and operated to government standards and Industry guidelines, including the Gas Processors Association. The GPA is an industry led group that has been a forum for sharing best practices for over 100 years ...  

Enhancing the viability of natural gas, natural gas liquids and crude oil

Shaping the U.S. midstream energy sector since 1921, GPA Midstream sets standards for natural gas liquids; develops simple and reproducible test methods to define the industry’s raw materials and products; manages a worldwide cooperative research program; provides a voice for our industry on Capitol Hill; and is the go-to resource for technical reports and publications. The annual GPA Midstream Convention is the premiere meeting place for midstream professionals from around the globe.

Please, don't ever confuse a real Midstream company with a refinery or chemical plant, or an exploration and production company, or for god's sake, a utility.

Every day, trained and experienced personnel take the most volatile hydrocarbon products known to man, boost it to a pressure high enough that a leak would cut you half, and for good measure, put it in large steel tanks, and add heat. They work alongside 25,000 HP gas turbines every day, that have jet engines on one side of a shaft connected to a compressor that boosts 250,000,000 FT3 of gas per day to pressures exceeding 1,000 pounds per square inch. Everything is mechanical, and eventually, if not maintained properly, it will break.

Our job is never so important that we cannot take the time to do it safely.

If I don't have the time to do it right the first time, when will I have the time to fix it.

We're a technical company, so technical people are going to run it.

Sorry guys, this for the adults for which math makes your heart go pitter-patter.

The valve stations and other above facilities are usually protected by chain link fences, to keep people out, or steel pipes filled with concrete, to keep bigger things out.

A barrier built to protect from a tractor with a blade may not stop a bull dozer, or an SUV.

Odds are the pipeline and other facilities were built well before the Wal-Mart.

There is ample evidence that ignorant (lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about a particular thing) people will make statements of fact without knowing the facts. 

I would expect the company shared the pertinent information with law enforcement, fire departments, etc. Those governmental entities would have the responsibilities to share information with those directly impacted by the incident, and with the general public as deemed appropriate. There is nothing that is beneficial with sharing unconfirmed information or theories with reporters and PI attorneys. 

Go look at the "Green Belt" in your neighborhood. Odds are it is a pipeline right of way, laser straight with well defined inflection points. And those neighbors paid a premium to live next to it!

The pipelines have beneficial use of the right of ways on the land they traverse, by virtue of legal documents agreed to by the landowner and the operating company. Maintenance of the right of way, and everything on it, is the responsibility of the operating company. The operating companies have no rights or responsibilities for anything outside of the right of way. 

Most of the pipelines and related facilities were built away from population centers many years ago. They were built to the standards at the time construction, including limitations on the maximum allowable operating pressures relative to the population density at that time. As the cities have expanded, they have encroached on that pre-existing infrastructure. Relocating and rerouting pipelines happens occasionally, but that is not the norm.  A cultivated field that had corn or wheat for 50 years is now a subdivision with streets and roads and houses and driveways and swimming pools and water lines and power lines.

Whether you agree or not, in my example, the financial burden to remedy the situation lies with the developer and the government entity that approved the encroachment. Whether you agree or not, there are practical limits as to what could and should be done, on a case by case basis, including relocating the pipeline.

There were over 40,000 auto related fatalities in 2023. Every entity in government and civil society with a means to change that has accepted that fatalities are unavoidable, and acceptable. We could not afford to drive cars, or fly airplanes, that are 100% "safe."

You want safe and protective measures?

What is the probability that a titanium blade on a steam turbine spinning at 4,000 rpm could break off, penetrate the turbine shell, penetrate the turbine building, fly 1,000's of feet, and penetrate a 4 1/2 foot thick reinforced-concrete secondary containment building (build with a lattice of ~ 15 layers of 2' steel rebar), penetrate a 2 foot thick reinforced-concrete primary containment building, and penetrate a 14" thick steel nuclear reactor vessel?

I don't know either, but the Nuclear Regulatory Commission thought is was high enough that the orientation of the turbines should be turned 90 degrees relative to the nuclear reactor. I guess they were right because it's never happened.

Holy shit YGIFS has returned!

And I just posted the safety standard a couple posts up for above ground pipes and valves: if the operator says it's good, then no further questions asked. Which is to say: there is effectively zero standard for safety. I appreciate your depth of experience and passion for your field, but you're acting like it's an act of god to put up more than a chainlink fence to protect a critical valve that's 100ft away from a 50mph road. Of course there can always be something bigger that would hit a valve and overwhelm its protection, and putting bollards in around the pipeline in the greenspace in your example doesn't make sense because it's not common for there to be heavy vehicles in that area. But even so, when the area around a site changes over time it's irresponsible to refuse to update your own safety posture.

[Hate 20082]

18 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Sidenote, I was curious on what the safety reg is for pipeline valve safety and found the following:

https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/interp/pi-12-0008

In a letter to the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) dated August 9, 2012, the Associated Safety Consultants (ASC), Inc., requested an interpretation of the applicability of the Federal pipeline safety regulations at 49 CFR 192.317(b) to an aboveground gas transmission line or main.  Specifically, ASC asks PHMSA's interpretation of how a 'safe distance' is defined or determined, and what would constitute an effective barricade?

Section 192.317(b) reads as follows:

(b) Each aboveground transmission line or main, not located offshore or in inland navigable water areas, must be protected from accidental damage by vehicular traffic or other similar causes, either by being placed at a safe distance from the traffic or by installing barricades. 

PHMSA has not adopted general criteria to judge the safety of distances and effective barricades separating aboveground gas pipeline facilities from vehicular traffic.  Therefore, a safe distance and effective barricade would be whatever a reasonable and prudent pipeline operator would conclude is safe under the site specific circumstances, considering relevant factors such as the speed limit, the direction of traffic, the terrain, and any natural barriers.

 

So there's no actual rules or regulations on what is required, just as long as it passes the gut check of the operator. The valve is 100 feet from a 50mph road (45 posted, but cmon its Houston yall), surrounded by gravel. A chainlink fence seems sub-par at best.

and yet millions of cars passed by this area safely over the last 22 years. Millions of cars pass by similar sites every day without incident. This was a unique event. 

[billfromlaketravis 11315]

A coworker had to evacuate and of course Centerpoint lost power in the area. The fire + heat caused the poles, wires, and transformers to catch fire.

While she was house hunting, I strongly recommended she live in Clear Lake if she wanted to be south. Why anyone with means would willing choose to live in Deer Park is beyond me. 

Edited September 18 by billfromlaketravis

[Captainant 27239]

5 minutes ago, Hate said:

and yet millions of cars passed by this area safely over the last 22 years. Millions of cars pass by similar sites every day without incident. This was a unique event. 

yes or no: installing bollards is burdensome and an overreaction

[0xdeadbeef 1617]

If you want to see what pipelines are near you, there is a viewer on the bottom of this page:

https://tx.pipeline-awareness.com/national_pipeline_mapping/

 

Austin: Meh

 

Houston: Yikes.

 

 

 

[Rex Kramer 1274]

21 minutes ago, elfenix said:

Car dealers aren't part of the automobile industry!

Car dealers and gas stations is somewhat analogous to GM and Exxon. Car dealers are more closely aligned with GM I would imagine. Gas stations are owned by franchisees and are largely real estate plays. They literally have nothing to do with the industry. You’re having a great showing. 

[pacman 7279]

14 minutes ago, Hate said:

and yet millions of cars passed by this area safely over the last 22 years. Millions of cars pass by similar sites every day without incident. This was a unique event. 

Have we really not learned from this flawed thinking, yet? 

Sent by Copilot:

It’s a common misconception to believe that we can't prepare for a catastrophe simply because it hadn’t occurred in the past "22 years".

 

This overlooks the inherent unpredictability of rare events and the importance of being prepared for the unexpected, especially when impact is possibly high.

 

We have plenty of examples of unprecedented events, highlighting the need for robust preparation and contingency plans.

 

Recognize that past stability is not a guarantee of future safety, and proactive measures are essential to mitigate potential risks.

 

This area should have been fortified due to nearby risks, regardless of "who was there first".

[0xdeadbeef 1617]

15 minutes ago, Captainant said:

yes or no: installing bollards is burdensome and an overreaction

A physical barricade like that is a protection against accidental problem, not against bad intent.  How many accidents would these have stopped in the last 10 years?    If the number is 1 or 2 then yes, it's an overreaction.  If half the purple dots on the Houston map above would have been prevented by these then it's not an overreaction.

If you put these up and a motorcycle goes right between them are you going to claim it's common sense to have a wall around the valves? What if a small plane crashes into one, will you claim it only makes sense to have a hardened dome?

Show there is an actual problem that barriers would fix and people will support it, otherwise is seems like an overreaction. 

 

 

Edited September 18 by 0xdeadbeef
hit save too soon...

[Hate 20082]

What Oxdeadbeef said.

[Captainant 27239]

41 minutes ago, 0xdeadbeef said:

A physical barricade like that is a protection against accidental problem, not against bad intent.  How many accidents would these have stopped in the last 10 years?    If the number is 1 or 2 then yes, it's an overreaction.  If half the purple dots on the Houston map above would have been prevented by these then it's not an overreaction.

If you put these up and a motorcycle goes right between them are you going to claim it's common sense to have a wall around the valves? What if a small plane crashes into one, will you claim it only makes sense to have a hardened dome?

Show there is an actual problem that barriers would fix and people will support it, otherwise is seems like an overreaction. 

20 minutes ago, Hate said:

What Oxdeadbeef said.

So yes, you both think installing bollards in response to the surrounding area changing and becoming more residential is an overreacton?

I don't think chain link fence meets the regulatory minimum of: 

Section 192.317(b) Each aboveground transmission line or main, not located offshore or in inland navigable water areas, must be protected from accidental damage by vehicular traffic or other similar causes, either by being placed at a safe distance from the traffic or by installing barricades. 

Because it seems pretty empirically obvious that their chain link fence 100ft from the road did not protect from accidental damage from vehicular traffic. Miss me with the slipperly slope argument taking it to the absurd for aircraft strikes - and candidly, a chainlink fence would probably be enough to stop a bike. Even moreso if there were bollards present to help catch the fence and act like a net.

 

It's genuinely shocking to see so many O&G folks recoil at the idea of proactive risk reduction measures in the face of a giant pipeline cooking a neighborhood in Houston for days on end.

Edited September 18 by Captainant

[CHIEF 5052]

37 minutes ago, pacman said:

Have we really not learned from this flawed thinking, yet? 

Sent by Copilot:

It’s a common misconception to believe that we can't prepare for a catastrophe simply because it hadn’t occurred in the past "22 years".

 

This overlooks the inherent unpredictability of rare events and the importance of being prepared for the unexpected, especially when impact is possibly high.

 

We have plenty of examples of unprecedented events, highlighting the need for robust preparation and contingency plans.

 

Recognize that past stability is not a guarantee of future safety, and proactive measures are essential to mitigate potential risks.

 

This area should have been fortified due to nearby risks, regardless of "who was there first".

Who should bear the cost? The pipeline company?  A pigging station that had been way out in the boonies when it was built? 

There are several idoits, on this thread that would buy a new house built by a fifty year old airport, and then bitch that the airport needs to spend millions on sound abatement.

CHIEF

[Hate 20082]

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

So yes, you both think installing bollards in response to the surrounding area changing and becoming more residential is an overreacton?

I don't think chain link fence meets the regulatory minimum of: 

Section 192.317(b) Each aboveground transmission line or main, not located offshore or in inland navigable water areas, must be protected from accidental damage by vehicular traffic or other similar causes, either by being placed at a safe distance from the traffic or by installing barricades. 

Because it seems pretty empirically obvious that their chain link fence 100ft from the road did not protect from accidental damage from vehicular traffic. Miss me with the slipperly slope argument taking it to the absurd for aircraft strikes - and candidly, a chainlink fence would probably be enough to stop a bike. Even moreso if there were bollards present to help catch the fence and act like a net.

 

It's genuinely shocking to see so many O&G folks recoil at the idea of proactive risk reduction measures in the face of a giant pipeline cooking a neighborhood in Houston for days on end.

 Vehicular “traffic”?? There was no “traffic”. An old person most likely had a medical event that sent the car into an area where there is no “traffic”.  You are over reacting. 

[0xdeadbeef 1617]

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

So yes, you both think installing bollards in response to the surrounding area changing and becoming more residential is an overreacton?

I don't think chain link fence meets the regulatory minimum of: 

Section 192.317(b) Each aboveground transmission line or main, not located offshore or in inland navigable water areas, must be protected from accidental damage by vehicular traffic or other similar causes, either by being placed at a safe distance from the traffic or by installing barricades. 

Because it seems pretty empirically obvious that their chain link fence 100ft from the road did not protect from accidental damage from vehicular traffic. Miss me with the slipperly slope argument taking it to the absurd for aircraft strikes - and candidly, a chainlink fence would probably be enough to stop a bike. Even moreso if there were bollards present to help catch the fence and act like a net.

 

It's genuinely shocking to see so many O&G folks recoil at the idea of proactive risk reduction measures in the face of a giant pipeline cooking a neighborhood in Houston for days on end.

Based on the fact that cars hitting pipeline valves seems to be exceptionally rare, I would strongly argue that the part of the regulation above "  by being placed at a safe distance from the traffic  " is clearly working.

Here's a page that has a seperate page for each year with pipeline accidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents_in_the_United_States   I scanned a bunch of them, and I'm not seeing cars hitting pipelines as any type of problem.

If you want to jump on the maintenance issues as causing pipeline accidents, you might have a good argument as there seems to be a lot of those.  But cars hitting pipelines just isn't a happening. 

 

 

[0xdeadbeef 1617]

16 minutes ago, Captainant said:

. Miss me with the slipperly slope argument taking it to the absurd for aircraft strikes 

A aircraft strike is an absurd case, but as far as I can tell, there is only one less aircraft strike than car strikes in recent years.  'Proactive' regulations that don't actually solve problems are rarely a good use of time/energy/money/focus.

[Hate 20082]

I went back and looked, but the screenshot of the area didn’t post before. This is the area in question. 

 

Edited September 18 by Hate

[Nice Guy Eddie 13387]

2 hours ago, Hate said:

For shits and giggles I looked at the site of the explosion in Google maps. Using the past images feature, I was able to see that the pipeline was installed somewhere between 1995-2002. The houses that were near the explosion were not there at the time. Let’s assume that it was 2002 when the pipeline was installed. That means the pipeline existed without issue for at least 22 years including during a period of extensive construction near the site. Like I said, there is no reason to over react to this incident. 

There's demand for cheap(er) housing. Developer finds acreage near a pipeline that perhaps no one really wants. Build homes and the home buyers are ok taking the risk even though they truly don't understand the risk. 

In the greater scale of risk, living in this area comes with many risks. Shelter-in-place seems to be a relative regular occurrence with nearby accidents. Then add in the long term health concerns of living near petrochemical plants. 

[fattyflattie 4636]

28 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Who should bear the cost? The pipeline company?  

Of fucking course.  All this guys have made too much money.   Propose an adder to the end user and this righteousness goes right the fuck away.  

[Captainant 27239]

17 minutes ago, 0xdeadbeef said:

A aircraft strike is an absurd case, but as far as I can tell, there is only one less aircraft strike than car strikes in recent years.  'Proactive' regulations that don't actually solve problems are rarely a good use of time/energy/money/focus.

I've never been in a car crash while I'm driving. I guess I don't need my seatbelt then because it doens't actually solve a problem and isn't a good use of my time to click and unclick every time I get in the car.

[Brisketexan 104216]

I don't think that any rational set of people would say that a pipeline company should have to spend a billion dollars to make their entire system bulletproof against even the most unlikely scenarios (nuclear-fueled sharknado or some shit).

What folks are instead asking is whether they should spend much smaller dollar amounts to make the system more resistant to risks that are known enough that they are embedded in existing regulations (protection against vehicle strikes).  Just did some intergoogle research, so it's as reliable as the rest of the internet, but 6" diameter bollards cost around $1,000 each to install.  4" may have even been enough.  A $4,000 (or less) set of four bollards here would have provided significant protection against a vehicle strike.  It's not complex or super expensive.

The facts and circumstances of this event will surely be thoroughly probed in enforcement and litigation actions to follow.  Determining whether it was reasonable to not install vehicle strike protection after/once it was known that there is vehicle traffic nearby will be part of that process.

People have little faith in energy-related enterprises/electric utilities/etc. doing even the bare minimum to make their facilities more robust and resilient. There's a lot of daylight between "be a cheap fucking bastard" and "spend so much on resilience against the unlikeliest of risks so that we go bankrupt."  In that daylight is what is reasonable compliance with the duty of care.  Each case is specific.  But the lack of trust in these players is understandable and not misplaced.

 

[Dahobbs 17383]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't think that any rational set of people would say that a pipeline company should have to spend a billion dollars to make their entire system bulletproof against even the most unlikely scenarios (nuclear-fueled sharknado or some shit).

What folks are instead asking is whether they should spend much smaller dollar amounts to make the system more resistant to risks that are known enough that they are embedded in existing regulations (protection against vehicle strikes).  Just did some intergoogle research, so it's as reliable as the rest of the internet, but 6" diameter bollards cost around $1,000 each to install.  4" may have even been enough.  A $4,000 (or less) set of four bollards here would have provided significant protection against a vehicle strike.  It's not complex or super expensive.

The facts and circumstances of this event will surely be thoroughly probed in enforcement and litigation actions to follow.  Determining whether it was reasonable to not install vehicle strike protection after/once it was known that there is vehicle traffic nearby will be part of that process.

People have little faith in energy-related enterprises/electric utilities/etc. doing even the bare minimum to make their facilities more robust and resilient. There's a lot of daylight between "be a cheap fucking bastard" and "spend so much on resilience against the unlikeliest of risks so that we go bankrupt."  In that daylight is what is reasonable compliance with the duty of care.  Each case is specific.  But the lack of trust in these players is understandable and not misplaced.

 

Setting aside issues like liability, I would think the disruption of operations and waste of product in an event like this would be enough to warrant this relatively meager proactive step. I'd say it was almost certainly an oversight that this particular valve wasn't already protected. 

[Evil Bill Obrien 3100]

1 hour ago, 0xdeadbeef said:

If you want to see what pipelines are near you, there is a viewer on the bottom of this page:

https://tx.pipeline-awareness.com/national_pipeline_mapping/

 

Austin: Meh

 

Houston: Yikes.

 

 

 

The Houston Arrow strikes again!

 

[Bill Brasky 1438]

I want bollards that are at an angle so when granny has a cardiac event she goes flying over the pipes like the Dukes of Hazzard 

[Brisketexan 104216]

3 minutes ago, Bill Brasky said:

I want bollards that are at an angle so when granny has a cardiac event she goes flying over the pipes like the Dukes of Hazzard 

Saw that happen on Mopac southbound over Barton Creek (because the guardrails are at an angle).  Behind a drunk dude weaving all over, I'm on with 911 narrating where he is and what he's doing....as he drifts off to the left, hits the guardrail going 60+.  Dude goes WAY airborne - like a good 8-10 feet up, flying forward at high speed.  Hits a light pole which just shatters, then plunges down into the creek.

Took EMS a while to find him, he went so far down the creek.  Apparently, he lived.  So, maybe a better outcome than if he'd hit an immovable vertical barrier?  I dunno.  I ain't a physicist.

[B00M 6243]

3 hours ago, 0xdeadbeef said:

If you want to see what pipelines are near you, there is a viewer on the bottom of this page:

https://tx.pipeline-awareness.com/national_pipeline_mapping/

 

Austin: Meh

 

Houston: Yikes.

 

 

 

I just learned we’re about 500 feet from a natural gas transmission pipeline in Austin. I suppose it could be worse, there are tons of houses and apartments essentially on top of it. 
I will continue not worrying about this. 

[Brisketexan 104216]

2 minutes ago, B00M said:

I just learned we’re about 500 feet from a natural gas transmission pipeline in Austin. I suppose it could be worse, there are tons of houses and apartments essentially on top of it. 
I will continue not worrying about this. 

Generally speaking, it's not the pipeline itself that is the risk.  It's where it pops above ground (valves etc.).  That said....yeah, the line as a whole CAN blow, it happens.  But if the line itself blows, it's usually the result of a dumbass digging and hitting it, or something like that.  A straight-up gas pipeline explosion on the line itself, without a third-party hitting it, is pretty rare.

And shit, those of us with natural gas to our homes have smaller lines running right by, and to, our home.  Which yes, can ALSO blow (it's happened here in Austin, and it's happened up in the metroplex) when the company doesn't give a proper shit about the state of its local distribution lines.  But transmission lines usually get more attention and maintenance.

[blacklab 11837]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't think that any rational set of people would say that a pipeline company should have to spend a billion dollars to make their entire system bulletproof against even the most unlikely scenarios (nuclear-fueled sharknado or some shit).

What folks are instead asking is whether they should spend much smaller dollar amounts to make the system more resistant to risks that are known enough that they are embedded in existing regulations (protection against vehicle strikes).  Just did some intergoogle research, so it's as reliable as the rest of the internet, but 6" diameter bollards cost around $1,000 each to install.  4" may have even been enough.  A $4,000 (or less) set of four bollards here would have provided significant protection against a vehicle strike.  It's not complex or super expensive.

The facts and circumstances of this event will surely be thoroughly probed in enforcement and litigation actions to follow.  Determining whether it was reasonable to not install vehicle strike protection after/once it was known that there is vehicle traffic nearby will be part of that process.

People have little faith in energy-related enterprises/electric utilities/etc. doing even the bare minimum to make their facilities more robust and resilient. There's a lot of daylight between "be a cheap fucking bastard" and "spend so much on resilience against the unlikeliest of risks so that we go bankrupt."  In that daylight is what is reasonable compliance with the duty of care.  Each case is specific.  But the lack of trust in these players is understandable and not misplaced.

 

There's 3 million miles of natural gas pipeline, figure a valve a mile and 4 bollards at $1000 a pop we're talking about $12 billion to do this.

How much damage is this going to do? $10 million, $100 million? Probably need to have a few more accidents before it's economically wise to start the natural gas pipeline Manhattan project.

[Brisketexan 104216]

6 minutes ago, blacklab said:

There's 3 million miles of natural gas pipeline, figure a valve a mile and 4 bollards at $1000 a pop we're talking about $12 billion to do this.

How much damage is this going to do? $10 million, $100 million? Probably need to have a few more accidents before it's economically wise to start the natural gas pipeline Manhattan project.

Except.....that's not what is called for at all.

The regulation at issue was cited above, I'll paste it here:

Section 192.317(b) reads as follows:

(b) Each aboveground transmission line or main, not located offshore or in inland navigable water areas, must be protected from accidental damage by vehicular traffic or other similar causes, either by being placed at a safe distance from the traffic or by installing barricades. 

So, there is no need to install bollards around all valves on all "3 million miles of natural gas pipeline."  Having the valve be a "safe distance from the traffic" is sufficient.  Hell, that's the BEST safety mechanism.  I've been out on a shitload of ranches with pipelines running through them with valves and other structures aboveground at spots.  No need for bollards there, because there is no traffic.  The vast majority of pipeline miles are already at "a safe distance from traffic."  And as for those valves that are NOT a safe distance from traffic, many of them already have bollards or other barriers (because that's what you're supposed to do).  This isn't an approach where anyone needs to "start from scratch.'

This isn't a "do it for all three million miles" problem.

It also isn't a "start from zero, install barriers on every aboveground structure that's near traffic all at once," because decent operators have already done that for most such locations.

Instead, this may be (we shall see as the facts develop) a "cut some corners and avoid a cost at a few locations" move, which is dumb as shit.  Penny wise, pound foolish.

[Captainant 27239]

29 minutes ago, blacklab said:

There's 3 million miles of natural gas pipeline, figure a valve a mile and 4 bollards at $1000 a pop we're talking about $12 billion to do this.

Nobody is saying every station everywhere should have bollards. Stop repeating this mischaracterization. If a valve is next to a 4 lane road and between neighborhoods, maybe there should be more than a chain link fence at that specific site?

Edited September 18 by Captainant

[PTINS 3438]

3 hours ago, Captainant said:

I'm moreso just baffled how such a critical and sensitive valve has zero physical protections in place. Doesn't heavy equipment operate on those sites? It's shocking that there would be no bollards or physical barrier protecting that infra.

Is it standard procedure to run a 1400PSI pipeline through a residential area with effectively zero physical protection? I am incredulous that it could be just normal to have giant exposed weak points all over the country running in between neighborhoods.

The odds of a pipeline rupturing are probably higher than an SUV driving in a field and hitting a block valve station hard enough to rupture a steel pipe.

Schematically, the block valve is similar to every single residential gas meter in the country, though I'm not sure if the Deer park station had a meter or if it was just a valve. A residential distribution behind a city gate is a lower pressure line than a transmission line, but they are still similar in nature. They are much more exposed to vehicular traffic; should we put pig-pens around all those valves also? 

3 hours ago, Captainant said:

And I again ask: is it normal to have these massively high pressure pipelines laid in between neighborhoods? It seems like a MAJOR operational security risk, not to mention the ongoing disaster that was getting entire homes close to autoignition temperature. 

That's one hell of a public subsidy breach of fiduciary duty by a government official to approve and allow construction of a residential area adjacent to an existing, extremely hazardous pipeline, without consideration for the general public. through a residential area.

Pretty much every Green Belt in a master planned community in Texas is a hydrocarbon pipeline corridor. The Phillips NGL pipeline from West Texas to South Houston crosses immediately north of the Chase Bank and the Slaughter & Mopac intersection. It crosses a lot of metro  infrastructure along the way. That pipeline was 15 miles south of town. Now its not.

Operational security risk? don't think I've ever heard of a car running into a pipeline in a field.

Whatever pipeline modifications were made in consideration of development, they are as agreed upon between the parties. Most landowners, both farmers and developers, want to minimize above ground infrastructure. Most times a chain link fence will suffice; it keeps the honest people out.

Re Subsidy? FIFY

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

Buried and underground, I understand running through a residential area. If you need to come above ground and expose it near neighborhoods, that's one hell of a public subsidy to not require those firms to carry a ton of insurance and/or harden the weak points in case of what's still burning in Deer Park.

Most large companies are self insured. The premiums to cover the act of one person making a bad decision that incurs a $40 billion judgement is prohibitive.

2 hours ago, Rex Kramer said:

But there is often very little communication between upstream and midstream. They’re totally different businesses. Midstream I view as a tollway charging a tariff. They don’t often take commodity price risk. Upstream is totally different.  Midstream players are not a part of the oil and gas industry. They’re part of the pipeline, midstream or infrastructure industry. 

Way, way wrong. There is constant, and real time communication between upstream and midstream, as the coordination of production volumes to current operating capacity is paramount.

Exploration & Production (Upstream) and Refining & Petrochemicals (Downstream) do not work without Midstream in the middle.

The lines between each are not absolutes, but determined on a case by case basis.

2 hours ago, royiv said:

WTF does this protracted discussion of what is or isn’t O&G have to do with the current events in Deer Park? This discussion is a beating. 

Surly gonna Surly.

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

My bad for being surprised that it's perfectly normal to have zero physical barriers to protect a valve holding back 2 days (and counting) worth of 1400psi gas in the middle of residential area.

 

There is usually a barrier of sorts around every above ground facility. Not necessarily SUV proof.

Surprised?

1 hour ago, Hate said:

The accountable person likely died in the explosion. 

In almost all the training video's I saw many years ago, they found the camera's. Sometimes they found the photographers body.  

1 hour ago, sidis said:

i have to say that in my years on surly, debating whether or not midstream and downstream are part of o&g may actually be the peak of utter fucking stupidity in the debates that exist here. anyone that does not think that midstream and downstream are part of the o&g industry need to have their fucking heads examined because that is genuinely some of the stupidest shit i have ever read...and a bizarre hill to destroy your credibility over.

truly bizarre that this is being debated.

I agree, that's some aggy level shit. 

40 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Holy shit YGIFS has returned!

And I just posted the safety standard a couple posts up for above ground pipes and valves: if the operator says it's good, then no further questions asked. Which is to say: there is effectively zero standard for safety. I appreciate your depth of experience and passion for your field, but you're acting like it's an act of god to put up more than a chainlink fence to protect a critical valve that's 100ft away from a 50mph road. Of course there can always be something bigger that would hit a valve and overwhelm its protection, and putting bollards in around the pipeline in the greenspace in your example doesn't make sense because it's not common for there to be heavy vehicles in that area. But even so, when the area around a site changes over time it's irresponsible to refuse to update your own safety posture.

Always PTINS, never anything else.

As Denton Cooley said, "I have no peers."

We hired the best and the brightest (lot of math). We built to DOT guidelines. We followed to ASME codes. In some cases, we developed our own construction standards, in excess of government and engineering standards. We solicited and adhered to best practices.  We did not need any non-industry,  non-professional people advising us how to do our jobs, safely.

To boil that down to "... there is effectively zero standard for safety" is insulting to everybody I met and worked with for 40 years. Safety is not simply words on paper, it is a learned behavior that is practiced every day and reinforced at every opportunity.  

The Highway Department used to put "Deer Crossing" signs where there had been a deer-vehicle occurrence. Why don't they just put them couple of hundred feet on every road in Texas, so the deer know they can't cross the road? 

Ok. Deer Park has had an incident where a car drove through a field and hit a pipeline facility. I don't doubt that some companies are asking the same question as you.  At the same time, there are hundreds of block valve sites all over the place in cultivated fields, with trucks and tractors and combines and all kinds of farm equipment in close proximity all the time.

You can't prevent people from doing stupid things.

22 minutes ago, pacman said:

Have we really not learned from this flawed thinking, yet? It’s a common misconception to believe that we can't prepare for a catastrophe simply because it hadn’t occurred in the past "22 years".

This overlooks the inherent unpredictability of rare events and the importance of being prepared for the unexpected, especially when impact is possibly high.

We have plenty of examples of unprecedented events, highlighting the need for robust preparation and contingency plans.

Recognize that past stability is not a guarantee of future safety, and proactive measures are essential to mitigate potential risks.

This area should have been fortified due to nearby risks, regardless of "who was there first".

You can identify and analyze every eventuality, but it is not practical to protect for every thing that might happen. Airplanes would be too heavy to fly and cars too expensive to buy.

I don't recall ever hearing about an SUV hitting a pipeline facility in a field. But, I did read about an airplane hitting a house and a whale jumping on a boat.  Perhaps we should start building protective covers for boats and houses.

 

[Captainant 27239]

5 minutes ago, PTINS said:

There is usually a barrier of sorts around every above ground facility. Not necessarily SUV proof.

I would not classify a chain link fence as a "barrier" concerning cars. A car blows right through that sucker, just ask Deer Park. 

5 minutes ago, PTINS said:

To boil that down to "... there is effectively zero standard for safety" is insulting to everybody I met and worked with for 40 years. Safety is not simply words on paper, it is a learned behavior that is practiced every day and reinforced at every opportunity.  

I'm not talking about how your organization does things. I'm pointing out that the standard is officially "every shop sets their own safety standards". I cited the correspondence and official guidance up thread. 

The result of that is that there WILL be operators that cut corners to save costs, because the risks are SOOOOO small anyways right?

IDK, I just don't have alot of sympathy for arguments that its too expensive when they made two and a half billion off of Texans freezing to death in 2021. It's not a matter of funds. It's a matter of not giving a shit and thinking "good enough is good enough because we've always done it this way"

[Dahobbs 17383]

42 minutes ago, blacklab said:

There's 3 million miles of natural gas pipeline, figure a valve a mile and 4 bollards at $1000 a pop we're talking about $12 billion to do this.

How much damage is this going to do? $10 million, $100 million? Probably need to have a few more accidents before it's economically wise to start the natural gas pipeline Manhattan project.

You wouldn't do it everywhere. But I'd say one in the 4th largest city in the country probably has a higher likelihood of encountering a vehicle. Personally, I would start there. 

[elfenix 34161]

Officials hope it will be out tomorrow per radio

[Rex Kramer 1274]

36 minutes ago, PTINS said:

Way, way wrong. There is constant, and real time communication between upstream and midstream, as the coordination of production volumes to current operating capacity is paramount.

Exploration & Production (Upstream) and Refining & Petrochemicals (Downstream) do not work without Midstream in the middle.

The lines between each are not absolutes, but determined on a case by case basis.

My comments were off. Let me clarify. Keep in mind I have a non-op that is 99% oil revenue that is entirely trucked. If an O&G company has an adequate gathering system / aggregation of contracts / takeaway capacity, their activities are largely independent of gathering, transpo, and marketing. The larger the company, the more likely you’re gonna have a marketing department to negotiate and administer midstream contracts.  It’s much more important for nat gas companies particularly in the Marcellus / Utica  

Oil and Gas can be more broadly applied than I have said, but I’m trying to prove a point here. When people who know what they’re talking about speak colloquially about oil and gas companies, they’re exclusively (100% of the time) talking about E&P firms. When they discuss midstream companies, they’ll call them just that or pipeline companies. They are absolutely not oil and gas companies. Neither are contract drilling rig companies, other service companies, frac companies, hot oil companies, refineries, petrochemical plants, or fucking gas stations. 

[Hate 20082]

Jesus Christ.  Do you let your children play in the front yard of your house? If so, you should put some bollards around them because they are closer to "traffic" flow than this pipeline station is.  It's over 100 feet away from the road.  There is no reasonable expectation that you would ever have traffic where the station is.  You just want to point the finger at big bad oil and capitalism.  That's it. 

[Fudge Nuggets 19097]

2 hours ago, B00M said:

I just learned we’re about 500 feet from a natural gas transmission pipeline in Austin. I suppose it could be worse, there are tons of houses and apartments essentially on top of it. 
I will continue not worrying about this. 

Username and stuff 

[Captainant 27239]

7 minutes ago, Hate said:

Jesus Christ.  Do you let your children play in the front yard of your house? If so, you should put some bollards around them because they are closer to "traffic" flow than this pipeline station is.  It's over 100 feet away from the road.  There is no reasonable expectation that you would ever have traffic where the station is.  You just want to point the finger at big bad oil and capitalism.  That's it. 

If my front door was 100 feet from a 45mph four lane road, I would probably be less than enthusiastic about them playing in the front yard, yeah. And also, my child doesn't pose a public health and safety risk to thousands of families and homes should she be ran down by an out of control car. It wouldn't lead to mandatory evacuations and shelter in place orders, because the public risk exposure is significantly different in your scenario. 

But dude. C'mon now. You're just putting words in my mouth and doing fattyflatty and GRUhorn's work for them to put words in my mouth. I had figured you'd be better than that.

[Dahobbs 17383]

45 minutes ago, Hate said:

Jesus Christ.  Do you let your children play in the front yard of your house? If so, you should put some bollards around them because they are closer to "traffic" flow than this pipeline station is.  It's over 100 feet away from the road.  There is no reasonable expectation that you would ever have traffic where the station is.  You just want to point the finger at big bad oil and capitalism.  That's it. 

 

1) 100 feet is not that far. A car going 35 mph will cover it in 2 seconds.

2) the area has a decent amount of traffic. It isnt like a random spot in West Texas seeing a car once an hour or so.

3) the amount of damage that can be caused, both in lost product and disrupted operations and in damage to the surrounding area, greatly eclipses the few thousand dollars to install modest barriers that would prevent 99.99% of realistic situations. 

4) I'll happily bet you $1,000 that once repaired, a barrier will be constructed at this location. 

It isn't about it being an evil oil and gas corporation. It is about what a responsible entity would do both to protect its own financial interests and to protect the public. This is a no brainer for any organization. 

Edited September 19 by Dahobbs

[Hate 20082]

No, I'm generally trying to figure out why you feel that something over 100 feet away from a road with 2 fences around it is unsafe.  It took an unbelievably rare event for this to happen.  There is no evidence of something like this ever happening before despite there being millions and millions of opportunities for it to have had occurred.