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Posted
2 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

It's merely an example.  Hell, most military base perimeters are primarily chain link fencing.   Most gas stations only have bollards at either end of the fuel pump with 10-15 feet in between where the pump actually sits.  Let's start a bollard war against every small time business owner who doesn't have enough bollards or only employs chain link fence.

 


Yes, I'm being hyperbolic, but the absurdity of it is equivalent to your wanton blame-casting....which is of no surprise.  

Most military bases don't have anything of consequence 100 ft from the perimeter.

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Posted
1 hour ago, elfenix said:

that's not how economics works. costs cannot entirely be passed onto consumers absent perfectly inelastic demand.

 

 

anyway, anyone know if texas is a strict liability state in this area or no?

I have no idea, but I can imagine what the answer is.

Posted

 

2 hours ago, Rip76 said:

Re: Speaking to the press.

Example 1-A. Why you want to make sure the right person is speaking to the press and the public.

I read a statement that clearly stated it was a "Y-Grade NGL" (Natural Gas Liquid) pipeline, and it further defined what that is.

The Mayor giving the Deer Park news conference stated it was "Liquid Natural Gas" (LNG) pipeline.

ABC 13 said the good news it is "Natural Gas" burning

Natural Gas Liquids (NGL), Liquified Natural Gas (LNG), or Natural Gas are not the same thing...220, 221, whatever it takes.

They are similar, but nowhere close to the same thing. 3 completely different products, in composition, physical properties, and in the mitigation of leaks and fires.

Natural Gas is primarily methane, it can be converted to LNG, primarily for export, and is then converted back to natural gas. "Natural Gas" is used for both gas produced at the wellhead, which contains the Natural Gas Liquids, and also the finished product that has had the impurities and NGL removed.

LNG is also primarily methane, which is lighter than air and will dissipate naturally. It is transported and stored at - 200  °F, < 5 PSI, is warmed and vaporized, and transported at ~ 1,000 PSI and ambient temperatures.

NGL Y-grade is a mixture of hydrocarbons, including a nominal 25% propane, which is heavier, than air, and will lay on the ground until if eventually dissipates, or finds an ignition source. It is transported at ~1,000 PSI and ambient temperatures.

In this case, I would believe the OIL & GAS COMPANY and not the government officials or the press, but you be you.

From the video;

This is a well defined utility corridor, including high power electric lines and a number of pipelines, which may include gas, oil, NGL, purity products, or specialty chemicals. In similar pipeline corridors, companies are usually granted construction easements (25-50 feet wide) and will revert to a permanent easement upon completion (some as narrow as 2 feet.) In some cases, the ROW also has a depth requirement.

I wouldn't be surprised if some these original agreements are 100+ years old. Obviously in a shared ROW, the wants of a individual company must be tempered with the needs of the others. While pipeline companies needs and wants are similar, the power line owners are different, and somewhat unique. They have exposed high voltage lines and any thing that may cause an electric arc (like a steel pipe) is a primary consideration.  Power lines falling on top of pipes and other structures is always a big concern. Note the power lines on the ground in the pictures and videos.

image.png.270763545a2a737e5ae36e6cee08cd93.png

 

In the picture below, you can see the two above ground block valves (red & white) in the fenced locations behind the fire. Interesting that the fence towards Wal-Mart appears to be intact.

There is/was a set of power lines going directly over the fire location, with a power pole inside the fence. There are a lot of different facilities, fences, bollards, power poles, telephone poles within the ROW. 

image.thumb.png.0462c965ea2aa57e8a93ca0f8992aa93.png

Deer Park Pipeline Fire

I am sorry there was a fatality in this accident. It is never a good thing.

I've seen pictures, before and after, NGL and Natural Gas pipeline accidents.

I have done repair work on an NGL pipeline leak. Even though all the pressure gauges read "0", there was still pressure inside. Run, Forest!!! Run!!!

I have seen a pipeline that was severed by a construction crew and was de-pressuring at sonic velocity with the sound of a jet engine, that dropped the surrounding temperatures ~ 20-30 °F where we were standing.

I have seen gas pipeline fires, some of which we started so the gas didn't explode.

I have seen a pipeline test blowdown with 2,000 PSI of nitrogen behind it.

I have even seen a man pleasure a camel.

But, I have never seen a high pressure NGL line (~1,000+ PSI), leaking, vaporizing and burning, releasing that much pressure and energy at one time.  (Insert South Austin Mom joke here.)

Not unlike the fingers of God. (Go to 0:55 of the video)

Looking at the video, my reaction was this does not look look like a leak from a vent valve. Not sure what was there before, but it appears there was a riser (2-4" ?) coming off the below ground mainline. Above ground, there would be line with a smaller valve that could be opened to atmosphere. 

From the video, there does not appear to be a pipe or a valve, just a big hole (10-20") with a tremendous amount of Natural Gas Liquids, leaking, vaporizing and igniting. (I know ET has a 20" NGL line in the general area.). My guess would be that the car hit the riser, damaged the pipe, which was sheared off by the pipeline pressure, which tossed the car, and the product ignited ( from sparks, or the catalytic converter.)

Edit; in the later video's, you can see some kind of pipe or something at ground level that wasn't obvious in the earlier videos.

As bad as this is, it could have been much worse.

 

image.thumb.png.bdfe130f3f55f682d90ea826b8c00363.png

 

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

That's literally not what I or brisket or Dahobbs are saying. Y'all are running it to the extreme and then tilting off on that straw man and then insinuating I'm a communist pollyanna. 

We would use Extreme Theory in our planning; What is the wort thing that can happen? What is the best thing that can happen? Where is the reality within that spectrum?

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Posted
1 hour ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Most military bases don't have anything of consequence 100 ft from the perimeter.

Reminds me of that time, after baseball practice at Bergstom AFB (Pre airport), we went off chasing Jack Rabbits along Hiway 71. We got about halfway down, adjacent to the apron where they parked the planes. Out of nowhere, 2 jeeps full of GI's w/ M-16's came speeding towards us, and influenced us to get the hell out of there.  

For any of you near Houston, consider taking a drive to Mont Belvieu, on FM 146 (state highway?) from I-10 North about 2-3 miles. Probably the highest concentration of pipelines in the world, mostly NGL pipelines. First time i went there in 1980, I thought it looked vulnerable.

Given what happened in Deer Park, they will probably end up building a wall or barrier along the highway. The industry "bought" the town a long time ago.

I'm out. I might be un-retiring here for a bit.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, PTINS said:

I have seen a pipeline that was severed by a construction crew and was de-pressuring at sonic velocity with the sound of a jet engine, that dropped the surrounding temperatures ~ 20-30 °F where we were standing.

I have seen gas pipeline fires, some of which we started so the gas didn't explode.

I have seen a pipeline test blowdown with 2,000 PSI of nitrogen behind it.

I have even seen a man pleasure a camel.

But, I have never seen a high pressure NGL line (~1,000+ PSI), leaking, vaporizing and burning, releasing that much pressure and energy at one time.  (Insert South Austin Mom joke here.)

Not unlike the fingers of God. (Go to 0:55 of the video)

Looking at the video, my reaction was this does not look look like a leak from a vent valve. Not sure what was there before, but it appears there was a riser (2-4" ?) coming off the below ground mainline. Above ground, there would be line with a smaller valve that could be opened to atmosphere. 

From the video, there does not appear to be a pipe or a valve, just a big hole (10-20") with a tremendous amount of Natural Gas Liquids, leaking, vaporizing and igniting. (I know ET has a 20" NGL line in the general area.). My guess would be that the car hit the riser, damaged the pipe, which was sheared off by the pipeline pressure, which tossed the car, and the product ignited ( from sparks, or the catalytic converter.)

Edit; in the later video's, you can see some kind of pipe or something at ground level that wasn't obvious in the earlier videos.

As bad as this is, it could have been much worse.

Right..... So considering that this COULD have been much worse, you call it an overreaction to add something more substantial than a chain link fence to protect it from the roadway direction? Or is it that since bollards won't stop an airplane, we shouldn't do anything at all?

Edited by Captainant
Posted
1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Right..... So considering that this COULD have been much worse, you call it an overreaction to add something more substantial than a chain link fence to protect it from the roadway direction? Or is it that since bollards won't stop an airplane, we shouldn't do anything at all?

I’m down for paying for it out of any social fund you want.  I’d be irate as an ET shareholder if they don’t hold the woman’s estate liable. 

Posted
Criminal investigation? Wonder if that’s just protocol at this point or they information indicating something

I’m positive it’s protocol. Got to look into whether the driver hit it intentionally, even if all signs point to it before an accident. Have to run the traps. Insurance sure as hell will insist on it.
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Posted
3 hours ago, PTINS said:

 

For any of you near Houston, consider taking a drive to Mont Belvieu, on FM 146 (state highway?) from I-10 North about 2-3 miles. Probably the highest concentration of pipelines in the world, mostly NGL pipelines. First time i went there in 1980, I thought it looked vulnerable.

Given what happened in Deer Park, they will probably end up building a wall or barrier along the highway. The industry "bought" the town a long time ago.

I'm out. I might be un-retiring here for a bit.

I'd have my doubts that a triple row of K rails would stop a semi and trailer combo weighing in at close to 80,000 pounds gross from causing a similar catastrophe.   If you have a P/L running through your property, you just might be surprised how and what you can do on the ROW.   IF you ever decide to do anything, call the P/L operator before you invest any money.  

Posted
9 minutes ago, blacklab said:

hopefully the people who derailed this thread arguing over the definition of oil and gas companies

I'm sorry about that, I got Rex'd. It's too bad he wouldn't ever engage with the discussion about the disaster itself 

Posted
15 hours ago, Rex Kramer said:

Wind turbine manufacturers are oil and gas companies. 

Companies that own & operate wind farms use their windmill tax subsidies ...

to invest in oil & gas exploration and production... tax free. 

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Posted

O&G bros trigger alert. Anyone who's driven through Luling sarcastically will say, "NO WAI!" I think the saying in Luling is that's the smell of money. Sure...cognitive dissonance is a great coping mechanism.

 

https://www.texastribune.org/2024/09/20/texas-oil-wells-hydrogen-sulfide-caldwell-county/

Study finds levels of a dangerous gas “off the scales” in Central Texas oilfield

The smell of oil wells has long permeated Caldwell County, near Austin and San Antonio. Now researchers have documented wells releasing dangerous amounts of hydrogen sulfide gas.

The first readings Abigail Edgar took of hydrogen sulfide and methane at oilfields in Caldwell County in 2021 were so high that she thought her equipment was malfunctioning.

“It was off the scales. Methane was off the scales and hydrogen sulfide was off the scales,” said Edgar, a master’s student in geography at Texas State University. “The monitor would immediately start beeping when I crossed the property line.”

Edgar was recording dangerous levels of hydrogen sulfide at wells on private property in Caldwell County, 30 miles southeast of Austin. Hydrogen sulfide is a toxic and highly flammable gas often found in oil and gas formations. During the course of her research, the gas was so potent at three separate wells that Edgar’s respirator did not provide enough protection and she had to leave for her safety.

Edgar teamed up with University of Cincinnati environmental scientist Amy Townsend-Small, an expert on methane, to take another round of measurements in 2023. They found the wells were directly releasing gas — including hydrogen sulfide and methane — into the atmosphere in a process called venting. Some of the wells venting gas were alongside public roads. Others were next to backyards and driveways.

In a paper published in Environmental Research Communications last week, Edgar, Townsend-Small and other authors at Texas State University and the University of Maryland report hydrogen sulfide readings at 46 wells around Caldwell County. Hydrogen sulfide concentrations at 13 of the wells were at least 300 parts per million (ppm) — the maximum reading on the measuring device. Eight other sites had readings over 100 ppm. Exposure to 100 ppm of hydrogen sulfide is immediately dangerous to life or health, according to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. The study warns these hydrogen sulfide levels are a hazard for people living and working in the area.

“Here in Texas we rely heavily on the oil industry and protect the oil industry. And I think rightfully so,” Edgar said. “But there has to be something done for these neighbors. We’re slowly poisoning these communities.”

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Posted

If you've ever driven through Andrews, Jai or Eunice there is no doubt Hydrogen Sulfide is being released. It's so thick you can taste it.

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Posted
12 hours ago, crash_davis said:

O&G bros trigger alert. Anyone who's driven through Luling sarcastically will say, "NO WAI!" I think the saying in Luling is that's the smell of money. Sure...cognitive dissonance is a great coping mechanism.

Luling is the Dutch oven of Central Texas.

12 hours ago, Rex Kramer said:

Nothing triggering about the article, except I’ve never heard of really any hydrocarbons in Caldwell County. 

If you've ever been to Luling on one of those humid, stagnant air, it's-already-85-degrees-at-9am mornings, the sulfurous odor is about as bad as it can get. 

One of the most significant events in Luling's history was the discovery of oil by Edgar B. Davis.[7] Davis mortgaged everything he owned to finance drilling operations around Luling. On August 9, 1922, the Rafael Rios No. 1 well struck oil at 2,161 feet (659 m), producing 150 barrels per day (24 m3/d). To repay his loans, Davis contracted 2 million barrels (320,000 m3) each to Atlantic Oil and Magnolia Oil at $.50 a barrel, plus another 2 million barrels (320,000 m3) to Magnolia at $.75 per barrel.[9]

Davis' discovery opened up an oilfield 12 miles (19 km) long and 2 miles (3 km) wide. The economy quickly moved from the railroad and agriculture to oil. The population of the town rapidly increased to over 5,000. By 1924, the Luling Oil Field was producing over 15 million barrels (2,400,000 m3) of oil per year, and oil formed much of Luling's economy for the next 60 years.[9]

As oil grew in importance in the 1930s and 1940s, the railroads that helped form the town declined and largely pulled out of Luling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luling,_Texas

10 hours ago, RPM said:

If you've ever driven through Andrews, JAL or Eunice there is no doubt Hydrogen Sulfide is being released. It's so thick you can taste it.

Fify. The sulfuric miasma lingering around Forsan off US 87 manages to infiltrate the nostrils in the same way.  

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Posted
21 hours ago, crash_davis said:

O&G bros trigger alert. Anyone who's driven through Luling sarcastically will say, "NO WAI!" I think the saying in Luling is that's the smell of money. Sure...cognitive dissonance is a great coping mechanism.

 

https://www.texastribune.org/2024/09/20/texas-oil-wells-hydrogen-sulfide-caldwell-county/

Study finds levels of a dangerous gas “off the scales” in Central Texas oilfield

The smell of oil wells has long permeated Caldwell County, near Austin and San Antonio. Now researchers have documented wells releasing dangerous amounts of hydrogen sulfide gas.

The first readings Abigail Edgar took of hydrogen sulfide and methane at oilfields in Caldwell County in 2021 were so high that she thought her equipment was malfunctioning.

“It was off the scales. Methane was off the scales and hydrogen sulfide was off the scales,” said Edgar, a master’s student in geography at Texas State University. “The monitor would immediately start beeping when I crossed the property line.”

Edgar was recording dangerous levels of hydrogen sulfide at wells on private property in Caldwell County, 30 miles southeast of Austin. Hydrogen sulfide is a toxic and highly flammable gas often found in oil and gas formations. During the course of her research, the gas was so potent at three separate wells that Edgar’s respirator did not provide enough protection and she had to leave for her safety.

Edgar teamed up with University of Cincinnati environmental scientist Amy Townsend-Small, an expert on methane, to take another round of measurements in 2023. They found the wells were directly releasing gas — including hydrogen sulfide and methane — into the atmosphere in a process called venting. Some of the wells venting gas were alongside public roads. Others were next to backyards and driveways.

In a paper published in Environmental Research Communications last week, Edgar, Townsend-Small and other authors at Texas State University and the University of Maryland report hydrogen sulfide readings at 46 wells around Caldwell County. Hydrogen sulfide concentrations at 13 of the wells were at least 300 parts per million (ppm) — the maximum reading on the measuring device. Eight other sites had readings over 100 ppm. Exposure to 100 ppm of hydrogen sulfide is immediately dangerous to life or health, according to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. The study warns these hydrogen sulfide levels are a hazard for people living and working in the area.

“Here in Texas we rely heavily on the oil industry and protect the oil industry. And I think rightfully so,” Edgar said. “But there has to be something done for these neighbors. We’re slowly poisoning these communities.”

A few observations,

Having witnessed resume padding by others for a good many years, the term "an expert on methane", is a pretty low bar to step over. Once you understand a few physical properties and characteristics of methane, there is not much else.  Perhaps that expert could add expert on Hydrogen Sulfide to their credentials.

The wells in Luling have produced oil (and small amounts of natural gas) that contains sulphur compounds, including hydrogen sulfide (H2S), since they were drilled 100 years ago. That is a fact. That fact is the reason the wells have posted signs warning people there is "H2S" or "Poison Gas" present, and the reason why the all the above ground surface equipment is designed to be used in a dangerous, corrosive, hazardous environment. 

image.thumb.jpeg.e2b9cd4c195fe30d47a31bf01723569e.jpeg

Apparently the recent testing confirmed that the gas wells producing methane and H2S contained extremely high concentrations of methane and H2S; “It was off the scales. Methane was off the scales and hydrogen sulfide was off the scales,” ... “The monitor would immediately start beeping when I crossed the property line.”  Off site, the monitor wasn't beeping. Ok, all is good. They crossed the property line to the well producing the poisonous gas, and the monitor immediately started beeping. Ok, it looks like the monitor is working. As one would expect, the concentration increases as you get closer to the source. 

One would expect an expert on methane to understand that methane containing elevated levels of H2S requires elevated levels of personal protection (masks and fresh air tanks, not a respirator), especially when directly exposed to the source of the poisonous gas. At "higher" H2S levels, any exposure could be fatal, on contact. You don't need to be an expert to understand that fact.

Every flange, valve, meter and piece of equipment at the well site is a possible fugitive emission source. Oil is stored in atmospheric tanks that breath, or vent, low quantities of vapor (gas) entrained in the oil. The minute quantities of leaked vapors are diluted and dissipate readily. These tanks are designed to hold a column of liquid at atmospheric pressure, not a pressure vessel for storing liquids under pressure. Those locations with elevated levels of H2S are operated and maintained by personnel that have specific training and knowledge and have been equipped accordingly.

At least the reporters eventually recognized the obvious and left for their own safety.

I like to know the rules so I no how far I'm stepping over them. Rules or guidelines on a Poison Gas that can be fatal on contact? Those are absolutes.

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Posted

I used to work for Quest and have been all over the country doing smart pigging.  A lot of sites up north that have block valves near the road especially on 2 Lane highways have cables inside the chain link fence to stop things like this.  It won't stop everything but it will slow the car down enough to maybe lessen the damage.  Sometimes that's the only isolation valve for miles.  With an explosion like that.  It looks like the next upstream isolation valve was pretty far and that's why it burned for so long.  

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Posted
3 hours ago, PTINS said:

One would expect an expert on methane to understand that methane containing elevated levels of H2S requires elevated levels of personal protection (masks and fresh air tanks, not a respirator), especially when directly exposed to the source of the poisonous gas. At "higher" H2S levels, any exposure could be fatal, on contact. You don't need to be an expert to understand that fact.

We’re talking about a Texas State grad student here…

Posted
On 9/21/2024 at 9:58 AM, PTINS said:

A few observations,

Having witnessed resume padding by others for a good many years, the term "an expert on methane", is a pretty low bar to step over. Once you understand a few physical properties and characteristics of methane, there is not much else.  Perhaps that expert could add expert on Hydrogen Sulfide to their credentials.

The wells in Luling have produced oil (and small amounts of natural gas) that contains sulphur compounds, including hydrogen sulfide (H2S), since they were drilled 100 years ago. That is a fact. That fact is the reason the wells have posted signs warning people there is "H2S" or "Poison Gas" present, and the reason why the all the above ground surface equipment is designed to be used in a dangerous, corrosive, hazardous environment. 

image.thumb.jpeg.e2b9cd4c195fe30d47a31bf01723569e.jpeg

Apparently the recent testing confirmed that the gas wells producing methane and H2S contained extremely high concentrations of methane and H2S; “It was off the scales. Methane was off the scales and hydrogen sulfide was off the scales,” ... “The monitor would immediately start beeping when I crossed the property line.”  Off site, the monitor wasn't beeping. Ok, all is good. They crossed the property line to the well producing the poisonous gas, and the monitor immediately started beeping. Ok, it looks like the monitor is working. As one would expect, the concentration increases as you get closer to the source. 

One would expect an expert on methane to understand that methane containing elevated levels of H2S requires elevated levels of personal protection (masks and fresh air tanks, not a respirator), especially when directly exposed to the source of the poisonous gas. At "higher" H2S levels, any exposure could be fatal, on contact. You don't need to be an expert to understand that fact.

Every flange, valve, meter and piece of equipment at the well site is a possible fugitive emission source. Oil is stored in atmospheric tanks that breath, or vent, low quantities of vapor (gas) entrained in the oil. The minute quantities of leaked vapors are diluted and dissipate readily. These tanks are designed to hold a column of liquid at atmospheric pressure, not a pressure vessel for storing liquids under pressure. Those locations with elevated levels of H2S are operated and maintained by personnel that have specific training and knowledge and have been equipped accordingly.

At least the reporters eventually recognized the obvious and left for their own safety.

I like to know the rules so I no how far I'm stepping over them. Rules or guidelines on a Poison Gas that can be fatal on contact? Those are absolutes.

 

22 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

We’re talking about a Texas State grad student here…

 

The point of the article is not to tell OG firms what they already know.

 

 

Posted

Easy to see why it is so difficult to talk risk and mitigation in our society. People get so emotional and irrational at the idea of costs, on both sides of the debate.

Posted

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/deer-park-pipeline-fire-driver-identified/285-527f5d38-87cc-4789-8dca-3156638ca320

DEER PARK, Texas — A 51-year-old La Porte man has been identified by police as the driver of an SUV that crashed through a fence and into a valve, sparking a massive pipeline fire that burned for days in the Deer Park area earlier this month.

Deer Park police said the Harris County Medical Examiner’s Office was able to identify Jonathan McEvoy as the driver of the Lexus NX350. They're still trying to figure out what caused the crash.

Posted

Dude was unhinged and snapped. Much like the lady that drove from California several months back that nobody heard about. She planned to sabotage Air Products. Never set foot in Texas before deciding at 33 years old to drive to Pasadena and blow up their HQ and then sabotage a pipeline. There was a dude in Plano that tried to blow up an above ground Atmos valve in 2011 I think. 40 years old and lived at home his entire life. Lunatics are everywhere.

Posted
1 hour ago, Rip76 said:

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/deer-park-pipeline-fire-driver-identified/285-527f5d38-87cc-4789-8dca-3156638ca320

DEER PARK, Texas — A 51-year-old La Porte man has been identified by police as the driver of an SUV that crashed through a fence and into a valve, sparking a massive pipeline fire that burned for days in the Deer Park area earlier this month.

Deer Park police said the Harris County Medical Examiner’s Office was able to identify Jonathan McEvoy as the driver of the Lexus NX350. They're still trying to figure out what caused the crash.

New video is new.   

The eyewitnesses they interviewed before made it sound something more like a heart attack that rolled over the curb and then picked up speed.  This video seems like it's going faster than I would have expected. 

 

Hey, here's a thought, has anyone thought about putting those cement barriers around the pipeline?  Anyone know what those things are called?

 

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