2024 port workers strike

[Incredulity 11141]

5 hours ago, Laxtonto said:

The bigger issue is that the ILA refuse to negotiate unless all demands are met, which isn’t really negotiating. They have been sitting out and refusing to negotiate for a month or so

This can’t be true according to our resident Trotsky cos-player.

[JMFP 1105]

8 hours ago, Captainant said:

...It's just being stolen from the workers by the business and disbursed to her shareholders instead 

I mean yeah fuck the Man and all but this is how my 401K makes money so I am a bit conflicted. 

 

*I dunno if my 401k is specifically invested in these particular shipping companies, but just saying, in general... 

[F250 28382]

10 hours ago, JMFP said:

Somebody needs to show their work, I'm not buying that these dudes make $200k or more a year.

From what I read, the ILA wants the base pay after 6 years worked increased from $39 to $69 an hour. Currently the West coast dock workers are already at $55 and should be at $60 in two years. Apparently the East coast dock workers only had a $1 increase over the last few years and took one for the team during Covid.

It seems the ask is for the base pay to go from around $80k to $115k which isn't even middle class on the east coast.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13337]

3 hours ago, Incredulity said:

This can’t be true according to our resident Trotsky cos-player.

Almost two generations since the fall of the Berlin Wall, someone posted this on the intertoobs.

[Kennythetiger 9276]

13 hours ago, F250 said:

From what I read, the ILA wants the base pay after 6 years worked increased from $39 to $69 an hour. Currently the West coast dock workers are already at $55 and should be at $60 in two years. Apparently the East coast dock workers only had a $1 increase over the last few years and took one for the team during Covid.

It seems the ask is for the base pay to go from around $80k to $115k which isn't even middle class on the east coast.

$69. 
Nice. 

[MonkeyDoughnut 9944]

Ports will be looking to be able to automate freely, that's their end goal. This contract will be more of when, not if.  Substantial wage increases are possible if that is allowed IMO.

[Laxtonto 11769]

The day is upon us. What is worse there is limited coverage of this nationally and so tomorrow this is going to be wall to wall everywhere with people being surprised that it is happening.

The problem is that neither side wants a good faith solution and so both sides can be entrenched with limited repercussions. The last major ILA strike lasted several months and the ULAW decided to not work any ship that was redirected.

There is a strong chance that this will tie up both coasts for months and still lead to a quicker adoption of automation. Anything on the ports that the longshoreman don’t control will begin automation and there will be a concerted effort to chip away at what activities that have joint union control.

This is going to be real ugly because I don’t really see either side wanting to budge and the current administration is hamstrung by the election. 
 

There are not any simple solutions to this one now, and so be prepared…

[Incredulity 11141]

1 hour ago, Laxtonto said:

What is worse there is limited coverage of this nationally

It's astounding how its stayed in the background nearly completely.  Saw a few things pop up over the weekend, but I would bet a high majority of people(80 plus percent?) are completely unaware.

The hurricane tragedy will probably give cover to anyone who wants to blame issues on something besides labor unrest.

[Stella Link 534]

8 hours ago, Laxtonto said:

The day is upon us. What is worse there is limited coverage of this nationally and so tomorrow this is going to be wall to wall everywhere with people being surprised that it is happening.

The problem is that neither side wants a good faith solution and so both sides can be entrenched with limited repercussions. The last major ILA strike lasted several months and the ULAW decided to not work any ship that was redirected.

There is a strong chance that this will tie up both coasts for months and still lead to a quicker adoption of automation. Anything on the ports that the longshoreman don’t control will begin automation and there will be a concerted effort to chip away at what activities that have joint union control.

This is going to be real ugly because I don’t really see either side wanting to budge and the current administration is hamstrung by the election. 
 

There are not any simple solutions to this one now, and so be prepared…

Time to make an HEB run....

[Rip76 4871]

31 minutes ago, Stella Link said:

Time to make an HEB run....

 

[Js1 82436]

Almost a 50% raise over 6 years

Triple contributions to retirements

Strengthen healthcare options

Limit, but not ban, on automation 

About as good as deal as they could get. They need to accept it 

https://apnews.com/article/port-strike-ila-dockworkers-begins-e5468e760f46a64e4322d1702beb1f72

[Slacks 6666]

5 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Almost a 50% raise over 6 years

Triple contributions to retirements

Strengthen healthcare options

Limit, but not ban, on automation 

About as good as deal as they could get. They need to accept it 

https://apnews.com/article/port-strike-ila-dockworkers-begins-e5468e760f46a64e4322d1702beb1f72

Seems reasonable from my toilet. But I don't know shit else.

[Conqueeftador 124]

Here’s their side 

 

 

[Conqueeftador 124]

7 hours ago, Incredulity said:

It's astounding how its stayed in the background nearly completely.  Saw a few things pop up over the weekend, but I would bet a high majority of people(80 plus percent?) are completely unaware.

The hurricane tragedy will probably give cover to anyone who wants to blame issues on something besides labor unrest.

Agreed. It’s a big deal. I would’ve had no idea without Twitter. Despite all its warts, still the best way to follow current events. 

[HOOKEM4 4877]

Organized labor needs to do what they are best at and reset the market. If people are mad, they are part of the problem. I have spent my entire career trying to convince power that the issue is pay and not anything else. My entire life i have been told if you work hard you will make your way up the ladder. I am fine, but the roadblock for the younger generation is insane. Can't afford a house due to black rock types, can't get insurance worth a shit, getting bled dry at every turn. It is because they need a new iPhone though! Take the power back. I welcome the wave crashing over all the dumbass heads that think they can siphon billions while complaining the workers are lazy. The fact that people are making marginally more than they did 20 years ago is comical. Fuck them all. Take the power back.

[Biff Tannen 44926]

53 minutes ago, Conqueeftador said:

Agreed. It’s a big deal. I would’ve had no idea without Twitter. Despite all its warts, still the best way to follow current events. 

Username is…something. 

[safe sex 11545]

Based on the linked Twitter user, I'mma guess that Queef is the latest iteration of GRU

Edited October 1 by safe sex

[Captainant 26864]

4 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Username is…something. 

I'm fairly confident it's another GRUhorn sock

[Incredulity 11141]

 

You solved it....the case cracker!!!

[F250 28382]

5 hours ago, Js1 said:

Almost a 50% raise over 6 years

Triple contributions to retirements

Strengthen healthcare options

Limit, but not ban, on automation 

About as good as deal as they could get. They need to accept it 

https://apnews.com/article/port-strike-ila-dockworkers-begins-e5468e760f46a64e4322d1702beb1f72

No they don't. They have everyone by the balls right now. They can hold out for more.

[tx 3 putt 74778]

picket line is up and going 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4956]

On 9/29/2024 at 6:24 PM, F250 said:

From what I read, the ILA wants the base pay after 6 years worked increased from $39 to $69 an hour. Currently the West coast dock workers are already at $55 and should be at $60 in two years. Apparently the East coast dock workers only had a $1 increase over the last few years and took one for the team during Covid.

It seems the ask is for the base pay to go from around $80k to $115k which isn't even middle class on the east coast.

80k base pay is closer to 110-120k or more with overtime. 115k base pay is more like 150k or more with overtime. 

[Schulz2.0 28616]

14 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

80k base pay is closer to 110-120k or more with overtime. 115k base pay is more like 150k or more with overtime. 

You only get up to those amounts by working an extra 400-500 hours of overtime a year. 

Sincerely,

A union worker that works 400-500 hours of overtime 

[Captainant 26864]

53 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

80k base pay is closer to 110-120k or more with overtime. 115k base pay is more like 150k or more with overtime. 

If that's what their employers are asking them to do.... Who gives a shit? If they don't want to pay overtime they can hire more people. I don't get the point you're making. The union published a letter a while back that outlined their grievances - including record profits and record dividend payouts in 2022/2023, and their previously negotiated wage increases being eclipsed by inflation. Heck they even make the same point as Schulz above you. They're fucking earning that overtime pay. 

https://ilaunion.org/8082/

 

[Macanudo 12653]

56 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

You only get up to those amounts by working an extra 400-500 hours of overtime a year. 

Sincerely,

A union worker that works 400-500 hours of overtime 

10 hours of overtime per week?   The horror, the horror.   Try being salaried in a industry where overtime isn't just expected but often mandatory.  The expectation to "get the work done" without the reward of being paid for the extra time.  At my previous company, I worked in a role where I worked 60-70 hour weeks for close to half the year and 50 hours the rest, all without overtime.

I do support unions and their collective bargaining but I don't like it when they hold people hostage for insane starting points like the ILA has come out with.

[0xdeadbeef 1614]

12 hours ago, Conqueeftador said:

Here’s their side 

 

 

Fuck this guy and fuck his threats against the US economy. If you strike and it can cripple the US economy, you can't be allowed to strike. Period.

I want a politician to go after this union hard.  Take a close look and I'm sure Mr. Dagget has some RICO violation lurking.

 

 

[Captainant 26864]

12 minutes ago, 0xdeadbeef said:

Fuck this guy and fuck his threats against the US economy. If you strike and it can cripple the US economy, you can't be allowed to strike. Period.

I want a politician to go after this union hard.  Take a close look and I'm sure Mr. Dagget has some RICO violation lurking.

It really is remarkable how much of a free pass y'all give management in all of this. It takes two to tango, and they're the ones stealing the fruits of the labor and distributing them to shareholders instead of the people generating the excess value. 

Why the fuck should they keep working? If they work extra hard they don't get shit for their sweat. I'm more mad at the business for eating it's seed stock and neglecting their workers to the point of putting their business in jeopardy. The workers aren't springing this out of nowhere, it's been coming for months.

This date is the expiration date on a contract signed between two entities. Why should one side of the deal have the unilateral right to change the deal? That's some Vader shit 

[Deej 76086]

1 hour ago, Schulz2.0 said:

You only get up to those amounts by working an extra 400-500 hours of overtime a year. 

Sincerely,

A union worker that works 400-500 hours of overtime 

[royiv 9043]

51 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

10 hours of overtime per week?   The horror, the horror.   Try being salaried in a industry where overtime isn't just expected but often mandatory.  The expectation to "get the work done" without the reward of being paid for the extra time.  At my previous company, I worked in a role where I worked 60-70 hour weeks for close to half the year and 50 hours the rest, all without overtime.

I do support unions and their collective bargaining but I don't like it when they hold people hostage for insane starting points like the ILA has come out with.

Yeah, abuse of labor happens in white collar jobs, too. Doesn’t make it right. If you want to get compensated for your overtime, go get a job at the port or a factory or any other number of jobs that are non-exempt. I’ve gotta admit, there have been times in my career that I’ve been sitting in my office well after the sun went down thinking that I should’ve chosen a different career path.

[Snake Diggity 4545]

I assume that they will Taft Hartley and just waited because they wanted the 90 days to last thru the election and long enough after to make it a non issue at the polls.

[52-80 18967]

On 9/29/2024 at 3:10 PM, JMFP said:

Somebody needs to show their work, I'm not buying that these dudes make $200k or more a year.

 

a little bit more reliable than indeed and ziprecruiter

https://data.bls.gov/cew/apps/table_maker/v4/table_maker.htm#type=0&year=2024&qtr=1&own=5&ind=48832&supp=0

https://data.bls.gov/cew/apps/table_maker/v4/table_maker.htm#type=0&year=2024&qtr=1&own=5&ind=48831&supp=0

$200k in Washington state. Near there in East coast. 80-100k nationally.

[SydneyCarton 47107]

Didn't Immamac like try to permanently ban GRUHorn at some point?

I think I read there were reasons why they didn't invoke Taft Hartley before now. But they certainly should invoke it now. 

[High Plains Drifter 10916]

20 hours ago, Incredulity said:

It's astounding how its stayed in the background nearly completely.  Saw a few things pop up over the weekend, but I would bet a high majority of people(80 plus percent?) are completely unaware.

The hurricane tragedy will probably give cover to anyone who wants to blame issues on something besides labor unrest.

 

To be fair, 80+ percent are completely unaware that the sun rises in the east. 

 

[Conqueeftador 124]

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Didn't Immamac like try to permanently ban GRUHorn at some point?

I think I read there were reasons why they didn't invoke Taft Hartley before now. But they certainly should invoke it now. 

 

[SydneyCarton 47107]

24 minutes ago, Conqueeftador said:

 

I'm not mad. It's hard to be angry at someone with such a sad existence. 

Edited October 1 by SydneyCarton

[Laxtonto 11769]

9 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

I assume that they will Taft Hartley and just waited because they wanted the 90 days to last thru the election and long enough after to make it a non issue at the polls.

It's an 80-day cooling period, so you are talking Dec 20th if it happened right now.  It will take at least 3-5 business days to go through the steps to use Taft-Hartley though, which gets you to Christmas. The problem is that if you go to Taft-Hartley now, you will (further?) alienate the Teamsters, ULAW, and ILA. That would even potentially trickle down to other unions, which would be a political disaster in the Rust Belt states. Unfortunately, these are all moves that are only being viewed through the lens as a political item, knowing full well that they will have repercussions well past the election.

The blame is, to some extent, on all parties involved at this point. The problem is that for the good of the country the "bad guy" in this scenario should have been the federal government. Unfortunately, instead of taking the hit and making it known well in advance that they would force a resolution through Taft-Hartley, the signals were instead that the government wasn't going to get involved. Now, the ILA knows that they can strike up until Nov 6th as leverage. Also this means the USMX knows what the expected maximum of how long they have to hold out until they could possibly see government intervention. So if you are USMX you start to do the math and figure out what the cost of 35 days of strikes will be to you and how much is that going to impact you long-term.

So if you are the ports are you willing to move above your current offer, which moved right before the strike from 30% to a 50% raise over 6 years? If you are the ILA do you move off your position knowing that the 50% is now the floor the NRLB would consider as the negotiated settlement?

The timing makes this such that there isn't a ton of reasons for either side to be willing to move off of their position. The whole situation is a misstep all the way around.

[Storm the Field 5242]

I usually strongly on the side of the unions in these situations, but "No automation at all, ever. We want guarantees that our jobs will always exist exactly as they are" is not a particularly sympathetic asking point. And having the Union Chief sitting there in his gold chains sounding like a guy in a bad mafia movie talking about shutting down the entire country is less than endearing.

[52-80 18967]

2 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

I usually strongly on the side of the unions in these situations, but "No automation at all, ever. We want guarantees that our jobs will always exist exactly as they are" is not a particularly sympathetic asking point. And having the Union Chief sitting there in his gold chains sounding like a guy in a bad mafia movie talking about shutting down the entire country is less than endearing.

You dont understand, these jobs are dangerous and backbreaking and thats why we WANT to do it !!!

[Samson's Wig 3154]

On 9/29/2024 at 10:24 AM, Laxtonto said:

The bigger issue is that the ILA refuse to negotiate unless all demands are met, which isn’t really negotiating. They have been sitting out and refusing to negotiate for a month or so.

l almost wonder if they were expecting the Biden administration to start the process for Taft-Hartley and then be forced to accepted  the NRLB negotiations and outcome as fact, instead of actual negotiations. My feeling is the NRLB would use the ILWU’s recent agreement as the baseline and then tweak it higher. That would be a major win for most of the ILA because the difference in tax structure between the west and east coast.

With the steps for Taft-Hartley not being started, the union only has the UMX offer to take back to their members , which the leadership have stated from the very beginning is not acceptable. So the leadership can’t accept less than their extreme position they pitched from UMX with losing face and without Taft-Hartley their isn’t going to be a mechanism to allow the ILA be save face and blame the major difference in the new deal on the NRLB.

 

This shouldn’t have ever gotten this far. I’m not a fan of governmental intervention in labor disputes, but this is one that the major impact to the country should be taken into account and force a negotiation through the Taft-Hartley act.

Thank you for presenting, much more intelligently, what I was trying to get at with my post above.  This situation should never have been allowed to get this far, and we'll all be impacted by people on both sides of the negotiation acting foolishly.

[Storm the Field 5242]

Here's another CR wrinkle:

[SydneyCarton 47107]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

You dont understand, these jobs are dangerous and backbreaking and thats why we WANT to do it !!!

Says the coal industry. And people and towns are wrecked without it. 

Lashing out at people for having an innate fear that their job might go away and they won't hvae a livelihood isn't productive. Now how these guys are going about that in these negotiatoins? Perfectly reasonable and fair to do...but I personally live in fear my livelihood might go away. 

[Etexhorn13 2995]

That rewatch I just did of season 2 of The Wire ended up being pretty timely for me. 

[Incredulity 11141]

Just now, Etexhorn13 said:

That rewatch I just did of season 2 of The Wire ended up being pretty timely for me. 

Not so bold prediction. 

 

The keyboard longshoreman/labor relations expertise hot takes based solely on watching The Wire S2 are going to become exponentially unbearable as this drags on.

[Snake Diggity 4545]

49 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

I usually strongly on the side of the unions in these situations, but "No automation at all, ever. We want guarantees that our jobs will always exist exactly as they are" is not a particularly sympathetic asking point. And having the Union Chief sitting there in his gold chains sounding like a guy in a bad mafia movie talking about shutting down the entire country is less than endearing.

Yep.  I am pro union but fuck that guy and fuck their unreasonable demands.

[Skipper 5955]

5 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

Yep.  I am pro union but fuck that guy and fuck their unreasonable demands.

This.  Couldn't be a worse representative.   That 2 minute interview tells me all I need to know about these negotiations.  

[Rip76 4871]

I wonder if this will spark others to follow.

[jeevsie 3683]

I've only ever worked in non-union industries.  Why do only some labor forces need unions?

[Js1 82436]

13 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

Yep.  I am pro union but fuck that guy and fuck their unreasonable demands.

Yep, the deal they were offered was pretty good, to be honest. 

[Bateshorn 9492]

1 hour ago, Laxtonto said:

It's an 80-day cooling period, so you are talking Dec 20th if it happened right now.  It will take at least 3-5 business days to go through the steps to use Taft-Hartley though, which gets you to Christmas. The problem is that if you go to Taft-Hartley now, you will (further?) alienate the Teamsters, ULAW, and ILA. That would even potentially trickle down to other unions, which would be a political disaster in the Rust Belt states. Unfortunately, these are all moves that are only being viewed through the lens as a political item, knowing full well that they will have repercussions well past the election.

The blame is, to some extent, on all parties involved at this point. The problem is that for the good of the country the "bad guy" in this scenario should have been the federal government. Unfortunately, instead of taking the hit and making it known well in advance that they would force a resolution through Taft-Hartley, the signals were instead that the government wasn't going to get involved. Now, the ILA knows that they can strike up until Nov 6th as leverage. Also this means the USMX knows what the expected maximum of how long they have to hold out until they could possibly see government intervention. So if you are USMX you start to do the math and figure out what the cost of 35 days of strikes will be to you and how much is that going to impact you long-term.

So if you are the ports are you willing to move above your current offer, which moved right before the strike from 30% to a 50% raise over 6 years? If you are the ILA do you move off your position knowing that the 50% is now the floor the NRLB would consider as the negotiated settlement?

The timing makes this such that there isn't a ton of reasons for either side to be willing to move off of their position. The whole situation is a misstep all the way around.

I'm not CR-ing here, but imo, the Biden Administration usually gets to the right place eventually, but there is some boobery along the way. Cock up before Conspiracy is sort of a calling card.  My guess is its a bit rudderless over there anyway, since they are lame duck, and nobody has really buckled down on this in a way to form an actionable plan. 

[atomheartbevo 88753]

9 minutes ago, jeevsie said:

I've only ever worked in non-union industries.  Why do only some labor forces need unions?

Because they were shit on in the past.  On the one hand, they have a point about the record profits stuff.

But on the other hand, they are timing this for the elections, and the leader bragging on social media that he could cripple the United States (and will) is not going over very well with people who are not union workers. I know he thinks one of the Presidential candidates is his friend for inviting him to his place in Florida, but when million-dollar and billion-dollar companies and their customers get pissed, they are going to want somebody to come down hard on that guy and the other union workers. Do they really think that the Texas Governor, who has been bragging non-stop about the Texas economy in recent weeks,  is going to be happy to have cargo ships clogging up the Houston Ship Channel? Because a lot of companies are going to be leaning on every politician to shut this down.

That guy really fucked up with his "we will cripple the US" nonsense. That was the epitome of arrogance.

If he had simply stated the case about the record profits, the COVID stuff, etc., that would be reasonable with a lot of people (although many are going to be wondering why those guys get six figures for moving stuff on and off ships), but the cripple comment was a true fuckup.

Edited October 1 by atomheartbevo