2024 port workers strike

[atomheartbevo 89625]

3 hours ago, Parliament said:

Just wait until the Facebook Karen’s get ahold of this and decide the unions are gonna ruin Christmas shopping.

1 hour ago, Orange&White said:

I'd like to watch you explain this to a Costco full of angry Karens.

That clip of him threatening to cripple the US has already popped up on my social media feeds from multiple family members/acquaintances who can be described as...Facebook Karens, including somebody who is literally named Karen.

And he may think he's friends with a certain candidate, but once the media starts asking that candidate about those comments, that candidate will have never heard of the guy.

[F250 28764]

1 hour ago, crash_davis said:

Strike a few weeks before an election. Hmmmm....

https://ilaunion.org/ila-president-harold-daggett-asks-ila-members-to-pray-for-former-president-donald-trump-and-victims-at-saturdays-pennsylvania-rally-recalls-productive-meeting-last-november-with-trump/

Well, their six year contract expired last night and the ILA has been signaling the strike was going to happen for months. It isn't like this came out of nowhere.

[52-80 19147]

This is not a photoshop. 
 

it comes directly from the union’s website. 
 

https://ilaunion.org/ila-and-its-president-harold-daggett-enjoy-banner-year-in-2023-establishing-longshore-union-as-a-force-to-be-reckoned-with/
 

[tx 3 putt 76868]

good gig if you can find it ….

 

[Brisketexan 105058]

The absolute opposition to automation is the head-scratcher for me.  Why would any counter-party agree to that?

Want to know what the biggest blow to longshoreman employment in recent history was?  The advent of containerized shipping.  Once goods began to arrive in containers, which meant that fewer people (operating cranes, mostly) could offload more cargo, faster, the need for individual longshoreman to unload cargo in small batches went away.  And thus, the number of longshoremen needed to unload ships dropped significantly.

Innovation and change will come.  The buggy whip manufacturers can lobby all they want to ban cars, and mandate only horse-and-buggy travel....but they will ultimately fail.

[52-80 19147]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The absolute opposition to automation is the head-scratcher for me.  Why would any counter-party agree to that?

Lets just make an appeal to emotion and see if people bite on that first. 

[Bill Brasky 1443]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The absolute opposition to automation is the head-scratcher for me.  Why would any counter-party agree to that?

Want to know what the biggest blow to longshoreman employment in recent history was?  The advent of containerized shipping.  Once goods began to arrive in containers, which meant that fewer people (operating cranes, mostly) could offload more cargo, faster, the need for individual longshoreman to unload cargo in small batches went away.  And thus, the number of longshoremen needed to unload ships dropped significantly.

Innovation and change will come.  The buggy whip manufacturers can lobby all they want to ban cars, and mandate only horse-and-buggy travel....but they will ultimately fail.

I mean, if you are going to ask for a 75% raise, free insurance, and 25% matching 401k why not go for the gusto? 

[SydneyCarton 48054]

30 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

good gig if you can find it ….

 

Do you EVER read a thread before you post on it? Like ever?

[Fondren & Main 6700]

4 hours ago, babysdaddy said:

 

 

[NeverMarryAStripper 21872]

8 hours ago, royiv said:

Yeah, abuse of labor happens in white collar jobs, too. Doesn’t make it right. If you want to get compensated for your overtime, go get a job at the port or a factory or any other number of jobs that are non-exempt. I’ve gotta admit, there have been times in my career that I’ve been sitting in my office well after the sun went down thinking that I should’ve chosen a different career path.

If they wanted more money, maybe they should have chosen a different career path.  Just because both sides are wrong doesn't mean the U.S. economy should crater.  I want my cheap shit from China.

[texasdago 7567]

6 hours ago, royiv said:

UAW made their demands and stuck to the talking points. Fain demonstrated how to keep on message and get public opinion on the side of the union. That’s why you saw Biden on the picket line with labor. It polled well and led to very strong support from labor.

I've already seen one tell everyone to go and buy toilet paper.  Great.  Thanks for starting a run on the stores.

[tx 3 putt 76868]

 

[Hook1997 5351]

On 9/29/2024 at 6:24 PM, F250 said:

From what I read, the ILA wants the base pay after 6 years worked increased from $39 to $69 an hour. Currently the West coast dock workers are already at $55 and should be at $60 in two years. Apparently the East coast dock workers only had a $1 increase over the last few years and took one for the team during Covid.

It seems the ask is for the base pay to go from around $80k to $115k which isn't even middle class on the east coast.

The average salary for an attorney in the state of New York according to the internet below...  I think base pay for physical labor being 115k might be a bit much.  The average salary with a degree in New York is $66,931 per year or $32.18 per hour. Entry level positions start at $50,012 per year while most experienced workers make up to $97,471 per year or more.  Sure a pay raise and increased benefits but these numbers are crazy for regular dock workers with a high school education or less. 

[Deej 76752]

6 hours ago, Jshep34 said:

I can't side with workers on this one. They get paid 100's if not 1000's of hours of over time pay while not even being at work. Know for a fact I've seen thier pay stubs. It's not possible to work the amount of hours they get paid.

Post on Surly long enough, and you'll eventually see everyone's pay stubs. 

[F250 28764]

2 minutes ago, Hook1997 said:

The average salary for an attorney in the state of New York according to the internet below...  I think base pay for physical labor being 115k might be a bit much.  The average salary with a degree in New York is $66,931 per year or $32.18 per hour. Entry level positions start at $50,012 per year while most experienced workers make up to $97,471 per year or more.  Sure a pay raise and increased benefits but these numbers are crazy for regular dock workers with a high school education or less. 

 

So what you are saying is we should kill off 2/3 of the lawyers to reduce supply and drive up demand of legal services so that lawyers are not out earned by blue collar workers?

 

[GreenspointTexas 9598]

11 minutes ago, Hook1997 said:

The average salary for an attorney in the state of New York according to the internet below...  I think base pay for physical labor being 115k might be a bit much.  The average salary with a degree in New York is $66,931 per year or $32.18 per hour. Entry level positions start at $50,012 per year while most experienced workers make up to $97,471 per year or more.  Sure a pay raise and increased benefits but these numbers are crazy for regular dock workers with a high school education or less. 

Jesus christ, thats it?

[Herbie Hancock 7344]

 
So what you are saying is we should kill off 2/3 of the lawyers to reduce supply and drive up demand of legal services so that lawyers are not out earned by blue collar workers?
 

You know the more I think about it ol’ Billy was right
Let’s kill all the lawyers, kill ‘em tonight

[Texas Flood 1356]

4 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

You know the more I think about it ol’ Billy was right
Let’s kill all the lawyers, kill ‘em tonight

RIP surly

[royiv 9247]

24 minutes ago, Hook1997 said:

The average salary for an attorney in the state of New York according to the internet below...  I think base pay for physical labor being 115k might be a bit much.  The average salary with a degree in New York is $66,931 per year or $32.18 per hour. Entry level positions start at $50,012 per year while most experienced workers make up to $97,471 per year or more.  Sure a pay raise and increased benefits but these numbers are crazy for regular dock workers with a high school education or less. 

Too many people with college degrees and crippling student debt because of this dumb idea that everyone needs a college education to earn a good living. If we would instead promote and value trades, people would reduce their debt, increase their income and improve their overall quality of life. Shockingly, it would also increase the average wage for degree holders.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

6 hours ago, ryskey said:

The total ban on automation is insane.  He's complaining that his workers had to work through COVID.  Yes, many others did too.  Do you know what allows workers to work remotely?  Automation.  

The issue with wages not keeping up with dividends/earnings/management compensation is impossible to quantify since most port companies in the US are either 

1. Private so impossible to tell what their financials look like.

2. Large multinational companies in which a small percentage of the total revenue comes from US ports.  So it's impossible to determine profitability of US ports there unless there's some disaggregation in the financial statements.  A read of port performance (several rankings and metrics here https://portalcip.org/documents/port-indicators-and-statistics/ ) indicates the US is middling at best compared to other OECD countries, and American ports lagging way behind other countries after grouping by size and throughput.  

An attempt to solve all of this could involve RSUs, stock grants or stock options for ILA workers.  Let them own part of the company that pays them.  Align interests, let workers participate in record dividends and stock performance if they exist.  But we are probably past the point where that would solve anything.  The combative nature here indicates poor management decisions probably have at least some of the blame here.  

 

But back to the ban on automation.  Port inefficiencies contribute to inflation and decreased exports, both of which we can all hopefully agree are bad.  This is a race to the bottom where a large group of people have a financial incentive to be inefficient and negatively impact the rest of the country. 

The other countries do a lot more exports, while the US is more weighted to imports, so I don't know how that may effect the numbers above.

 

Post more. I always come away educated. 

[Foosters 17824]

29 minutes ago, Hook1997 said:

The average salary for an attorney in the state of New York according to the internet below...  I think base pay for physical labor being 115k might be a bit much.  The average salary with a degree in New York is $66,931 per year or $32.18 per hour. Entry level positions start at $50,012 per year while most experienced workers make up to $97,471 per year or more.  Sure a pay raise and increased benefits but these numbers are crazy for regular dock workers with a high school education or less. 

Yeah, outside of Big Law, most attorneys don't make all that much. 

[gsoda3 3245]

4 hours ago, Captainant said:

It's surprising how many of y'all are TOTALLY into the idea of the government forcing a party to take a contract that picks winners and losers. Y'all's idea of a free market is surprisingly unfree

In a free market you'd be able to fire someone for refusing to work.  

4 hours ago, Orange&White said:

Co-worker went to Costco at lunch and said they were out of toilet paper.

I went to HEB at lunch and decided to walk down that aisle just to see. They were sold out of everything except HEB/HCF brands.

MIL told me last night that the biggest concern we face is booze.

Was at Costco earlier this is afternoon.  Plenty of toilet paper in Austin.

[gsoda3 3245]

6 hours ago, ryskey said:

 

An attempt to solve all of this could involve RSUs, stock grants or stock options for ILA workers.  Let them own part of the company that pays them.  Align interests, let workers participate in record dividends and stock performance if they exist. 

Profit sharing is a great idea.

[Captainant 27625]

9 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

In a free market you'd be able to fire someone for refusing to work.

The previous contract they had in place expired. There's nothing obliging them to work. A free market doesn't put parties into contracts they don't mutually consent to. 

[gsoda3 3245]

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

The previous contract they had in place expired. There's nothing obliging them to work. A free market doesn't put parties into contracts they don't mutually consent to. 

So the ports are allowed to hire others to fill these vacant positions? That's what a free market would allow.

[Captainant 27625]

Just now, gsoda3 said:

So the ports are allowed to hire others to fill these vacant positions? That's what a free market would allow.

...yes? Hiring scabs is a tried and true way to break a strike, but also tends to really degrade the quality of the workforce and product during the interim. See: NFL and MLB lockout seasons. 

[TwiceHorn 31438]

I'm now officially pro-union.

However, unions need to get the fuck away from the mob and I don't know how on earth you pay a union president 7x what a typical member makes.  That's corporatist right there.

In Europe, unions work with government and management to be productive for themselves, their employers, and the country.  See, for example, what happened in Germany when the wall fell and a bunch of cheap labor and manufacturing infrastructure became immediately available right across the way.

If our unions were worth a shit, all our manufacturing jobs wouldn't have been off-shored.

The idea of unions is great and labor organizations is indispensable.  The US implementation of unions seems to suck dog dick.

Edited October 1 by TwiceHorn

[royiv 9247]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

...yes? Hiring scabs is a tried and true way to break a strike, but also tends to really degrade the quality of the workforce and product during the interim. See: NFL and MLB lockout seasons. 

See NFL officials strike. That was some awful officiating to the point that it was comedic.

[Incredulity 11650]

If the NBA played with scabs it might actually be a watchable product 

[Aqua Buddha 14582]

Basically, there’s a group of guys called longshoremen, who unload all the stuff that comes into the country by boats (which is pretty much everything you buy, right?). The longshoremen all make more money than doctors, because their union has a legal stranglehold over the ports and their mob-connected boss is willing to cripple the American economy to get them even more money. So when you hear longshoreman, think “boat unloading guy making shitloads of money.” The union is paranoid about automation destroying their jobs, though, since robots can unload containers 5x faster and for 1/100th the cost, and also without threatening to wreck the economy and make inflation worse one month before an election and six weeks before the holiday season. Still with me? Good. Now pour me another glass of champagne and let’s talk about something called the Taft-Hartley Act.

[atomheartbevo 89625]

52 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Yeah, outside of Big Law, most attorneys don't make all that much. 

[Schulz2.0 28951]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

The absolute opposition to automation is the head-scratcher for me.  Why would any counter-party agree to that?

Want to know what the biggest blow to longshoreman employment in recent history was?  The advent of containerized shipping.  Once goods began to arrive in containers, which meant that fewer people (operating cranes, mostly) could offload more cargo, faster, the need for individual longshoreman to unload cargo in small batches went away.  And thus, the number of longshoremen needed to unload ships dropped significantly.

Innovation and change will come.  The buggy whip manufacturers can lobby all they want to ban cars, and mandate only horse-and-buggy travel....but they will ultimately fail.

You're surprised a union that represents union workers would oppose measures that would reduce the amount of union jobs needed? 

[F250 28764]

14 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

You're surprised a union that represents union workers would oppose measures that would reduce the amount of union jobs needed? 

Brisket is a cock sucking scab.

[Wally Fairway 5539]

So are we talking about how this will affect inflation, or is that on the business/market board?

[Brisketexan 105058]

You're surprised a union that represents union workers would oppose measures that would reduce the amount of union jobs needed? 

Not surprised that they WANT it. Like I want a weekend with Sela Ward at a cabin with a hot tub.
What I don’t get is how they expect a “yes” to that want. Kinda like I’m pretty realistic about Sela declining my want.
Asked to everything in the world, cool. But when one of your asks is entirely unreasonable, it actually hinders your bargaining position of your adversary is worth a shit.

[Schulz2.0 28951]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Not surprised that they WANT it. Like I want a weekend with Sela Ward at a cabin with a hot tub.
What I don’t get is how they expect a “yes” to that want. Kinda like I’m pretty realistic about Sela declining my want.
Asked to everything in the world, cool. But when one of your asks is entirely unreasonable, it actually hinders your bargaining position of your adversary is worth a shit.

A CBA negotiation means if you're going to give something up, even something reasonable, you're going to push for some sort of a concession in turn.

My union has pushed for increased staffing in my department because our work load and amount of equipment we work on and monitor has quadrupled in the past 5 years. The company doesn't want to do it because it costs money. If they do agree to add the staffing, they'll be expecting a concession on our end. It's just how this shit works.

Edited October 2 by Schulz2.0

[F250 28764]

Statement released by the ILA regarding the rejection of the 50% offer.

Quote

USMX’s recent press release is another attempt to distort the facts and mislead the public. The ILA has rejected their so-called “nearly 50% wage increase” because it fails to address the demands of our members adequately. They might claim a significant increase, but they conveniently omit that many of our members are operating multi-million-dollar container-handling equipment for a mere $20 an hour. In some states, the minimum wage is already $15. Furthermore, our members endure a grueling six-year wage progression before they can even reach the top wage tier, regardless of how many hours they work or the effort they put in.

USMX also overlooks the fact that two-thirds of our members are constantly on call, with no guaranteed employment if no ships are being worked. Our members qualify for benefits only based on the hours they worked the previous year, making them vulnerable if there’s a downturn in work. Despite this, there is no incentive within the progression system for hard-working members to advance faster. Regardless of their dedication, they must wait six full years to attain the top wage.

https://ilaunion.org/ila-responds-to-usmxs-statement-that-distorts-the-facts-and-misleads-the-public/

 

[Parliament 14239]

2 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

I want every interested party to somehow come out of this a winner.  Except that guy.  I don’t like him.

And that reporter totally borked to used his “I will break you,” quote against him.  Do better.

[Goofyboy 3269]

How does this work in Texas? Texas is right to work. Don’t come to work - fired and replaced. Is crossing the picket line the only thing stopping the port from hiring new people at 35% over what they were paying? People are hungry, supposedly.

[gsoda3 3245]

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

...yes? Hiring scabs is a tried and true way to break a strike, but also tends to really degrade the quality of the workforce and product during the interim. See: NFL and MLB lockout seasons. 

No. The entire Northeast is unionized and requires workers to be in a union. The people hired in this supposed free market are not allowed to work once the strikes breaks.

[gsoda3 3245]

All that said, my point is this isn't a completely free market. 

[Deej 76752]

23 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

How does this work in Texas?

Mexicans will pick up the slack.

[atomheartbevo 89625]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

 Like I want a weekend with Sela Ward at a cabin with a hot tub.

I hope you get that someday, because it's absolutely amazing.

 

[atomheartbevo 89625]

32 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

How does this work in Texas? Texas is right to work. Don’t come to work - fired and replaced. Is crossing the picket line the only thing stopping the port from hiring new people at 35% over what they were paying? People are hungry, supposedly.

I'm really curious how this is going to work out, because if Houston/Galveston start filling up with ships, and if companies aren't able to get their stuff shipped out or shipped in, then there's going to be a lot of pressure to fire those workers and bring others in.

8 minutes ago, Deej said:

Mexicans will pick up the slack.

[Goofyboy 3269]

Sue happy Paxton and Gov wheels aren’t on the side of unions, so this could get messy quick here.

[atomheartbevo 89625]

8 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

Sue happy Paxton and Gov wheels aren’t on the side of unions, so this could get messy quick here.

No, but they are on the side of a certain candidate, who is at least for now, on the side of the union leader.

But they are going to have Texas companies and Texas consumers screaming at them.

It's going to be interesting to see how this shakes out here in Texas (and there's a few other right-to-work states as well that are involved).

[Nivek 16917]

It is all fun and political games until we trigger a full-on recession in the US and it cascades to the global markets. 
This is something that should have been a major priority at the cabinet level 12-18 months ago.  The fact that nothing was done then and is being further exacerbated by inaction now is unacceptable. Being a rudderless lame duck now doesn't fix the fact that this is something that could have had some form of plan and intervention scenario in places months ago.  My biggest complaint is that this is something as academics we have been discussing rather vehemently for the last 6 months or so. So it is not like this is a situation that has snuck up on anyone. It was a well-known point of concern for a long time. The problem was most didn't ever expect the complete abdication of action by the US government as a lead-up to the now-current work stoppage.
 

Oh bullshit. There were more important things happening in the world than a bunch of workers negotiating with management.

[Nivek 16917]

 
 

Now do the CEO compensation packages.



For some reason, so many are mad that blue collar workers want their chance to damage our economy instead of Wall Street.

[F250 28764]

5 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Now do the CEO compensation packages.



For some reason, so many are mad that blue collar workers want their chance to damage our economy instead of Wall Street.

Sir, I happen to have a 401k so identify with the billionaire class.

[CHIEF 5075]

1 hour ago, Deej said:

Mexicans will pick up the slack.

Exactly. With millions of industrious immigrants entering the country, they would probably do it for less money than what the current union employees are making. They would do it 50% more efficiently, live ten people to a house, and be happy to be making 6-7 times what they were making back in Latin America. Right now is a crazy time for unions to be making these kind of demands. They may get air traffic controllered.

My Dad's older brother dropped out of school in the 9th grade. Went to work at the GM plant in Arlington. He retired making $150k/year, with a full pension, 100% medical paid for he and his wife as a union assembly line worker about 20 years ago, and still bitched that he didn't make enough money.

He also would boast about how little work he actually did. The shenanigans they would pull would get anyone else fired. Hanging lug nuts by a string inside door panels, intentionally break tools and equipment. It's no wonder manufacturing has been moved out of the country. 

I realize US ports can't be moved offshore, the ILA took one for the team during COVID, they should be compensated. If the West Coast guys are making $55/hr, offer the East Coast guys something comparable with adjustments for COL. 

Pigs get feed, hogs get slaughtered. The unemployment numbers are relatively low, but that only counts those who are eligible for unemployment benefits. We now have millions of young men, in this country, that do not even qualify, so they are not even counted. If the Port Authorities offer $25/hour, a green card, and benefits. What do you think would happen? 

CHIEF