2024 port workers strike

NotActuallyALonghorn · October 2

1 hour ago, gsoda3 said:

No. The entire Northeast is unionized and requires workers to be in a union. The people hired in this supposed free market are not allowed to work once the strikes breaks.

Yeah, that's a problem. As I said earlier, labor is a resource. And when a single entity controls that resource, there is a problem. We should caution ourselves when dealing with a subject like this, because it often turns our preconceived notions upside down. I'm in favor of unions. They help keep companies in check. But when they control the entire market for labor for a whole region, they have become the same thing that they are supposed to counter.

Deej · October 2

16 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Exactly. With millions of industrious immigrants entering the country, they would probably do it for less money than what the current union employees are making. They would do it 50% more efficiently, live ten people to a house, and be happy to be making 6-7 times what they were making back in Latin America

And do a better job.

MagicSoccerSpray · October 2

2 hours ago, Deej said:

Mexicans will pick up the slack.

~~Mexicans~~ Central Americans will pick up the slack.

52-80 · October 2

9 hours ago, F250 said:

So what you are saying is we should kill off 2/3 of the lawyers to reduce supply and drive up demand of legal services so that lawyers are not out earned by blue collar workers?

I'm not saying that that outcome will be guaranteed. I'm saying that we should atleast try.

956 Worldwide · October 2

9 hours ago, F250 said:

Statement released by the ILA regarding the rejection of the 50% offer.

https://ilaunion.org/ila-responds-to-usmxs-statement-that-distorts-the-facts-and-misleads-the-public/

I get most of my longshoreman union info from the Wire so can someone help explain this point to me?

My understanding has always been that seniority completely rules (which can be a benefit or drawback) and that unions have traditionally pushed for systems where seniority governs pay raises, promotion eligibility, layoffs, etc. Is that still the case and if so, how is this not an argument to unwind seniority and tie pay raises and promotion to performance?

MonkeyDoughnut · October 2

Reading this thread there is little discussion of the business side of the equation and how their actions or lack thereof has gotten us to this point. They had plenty of time to act differently but like most businesses decided to maximize profits as long as possible until being forced to do otherwise. This is just that "forced to do otherwise" moment.

Goofyboy · October 2

Reading this thread there is little discussion of the business side of the equation and how their actions or lack thereof has gotten us to this point. They had plenty of time to act differently but like most businesses decided to maximize profits as long as possible until being forced to do otherwise. This is just that "forced to do otherwise" moment.

They made a decent counter offer. However - asking the company to never automate is a non-starter. The strike is now a reason to automate faster.

Reading this thread there is little discussion of the business side of the equation and how their actions or lack thereof has gotten us to this point. They had plenty of time to act differently but like most businesses decided to maximize profits as long as possible until being forced to do otherwise. This is just that "forced to do otherwise" moment.

They made a decent counter offer. However - asking the company to never automate is a non-starter. The strike is now a reason to automate faster.

hornbri · October 2

15 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

They made a decent counter offer. However - asking the company to never automate is a non-starter. The strike is now a reason to automate faster.
They made a decent counter offer. However - asking the company to never automate is a non-starter. The strike is now a reason to automate faster.

Yep, you can’t stop technology. Why aren’t they asking for cross training and retraining for the jobs changed/eliminated by technology, isn’t that the right move?

Fudge Nuggets · October 2

8 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I'm in favor of unions. They help keep companies in check.

They suck at keeping companies in check.

52-80 · October 2

16 minutes ago, hornbri said:

Yep, you can’t stop technology. Why aren’t they asking for cross training and retraining for the jobs changed/eliminated by technology, isn’t that the right move?

Anybody who can crane a container from ship to dock can learn how to program as well. Anybody who can unload 15 tons of cargo can learn how to program for God's sake.

royiv · October 2

13 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

They suck at keeping companies in check.

What’s an alternative mechanism to keep companies in check?

TwiceHorn · October 2

10 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

All that said, my point is this isn't a completely free market.

Hardly anything is. Someone's always got their thumb on the scale somewhere.

Without unions or some form of labor organization, there's a gross leverage/bargaining inequality between management/business and labor.

Unions went wrong in collaborating with the mob. As I understand it, originally their pension funds were flush with cash and the mob made lucrative offers for lending that cash to projects like Vegas, and then we went off to the races.

There seems to be a good bit of that mob mentality hanging around unions, but it now seems to be mostly expressed in the crooked political arena with donation and endorsements and whatnot. I can't help but believe Daggett is doing Trump a favor here, or trying to.

The other sort of problem with unions is that in lieu of salary and benefit bumps, which I think are always the main goal, they take "odd currency" like bizarro work rules that frustrate and annoy non-union employees,** probably them too. So we get a bunch of weird shit negotiated in collective bargaining. That's kind of inherent to negotiation, so I don't know how you fix that.

**Almost everyone salaried that works or worked in a union shop has an absurd story about work rules.

On the other hand, it takes two to tango, and businesses aren't going to do labor any favors without coercion. I'm not letting management off the hook, either. But we've spent plenty of time talking about how businesses suck in other contexts, and this is no different.

Edited October 2 by TwiceHorn

atomheartbevo · October 2

1 hour ago, Goofyboy said:

They made a decent counter offer. However - asking the company to never automate is a non-starter. The strike is now a reason to automate faster.

Dennis Taylor · October 2

14 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

This fucking guy is straight out of central casting. Can't believe a guy with the goods on him was found in a trunk somewhere.

52-80 · October 2

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

My understanding has always been that seniority completely rules (which can be a benefit or drawback) and that unions have traditionally pushed for systems where seniority governs pay raises, promotion eligibility, layoffs, etc. Is that still the case and if so, how is this not an argument to unwind seniority and tie pay raises and promotion to performance?

I can see an argument that performance metrics for that line of work jeopardizes safety. Seniority rules probably make sense for those jobs, in addition to giving a security blanket. They seem to want their cake and eat it too.

For the example $20hr wage (single digit percentile of their pay distribution), the rejected $5 raise represents 25% increase. With $40 wage ($80k annualized) thats a 12.5% raise.

F250 · October 2

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I get most of my longshoreman union info from the Wire so can someone help explain this point to me?

My understanding has always been that seniority completely rules (which can be a benefit or drawback) and that unions have traditionally pushed for systems where seniority governs pay raises, promotion eligibility, layoffs, etc. Is that still the case and if so, how is this not an argument to unwind seniority and tie pay raises and promotion to performance?

As I understand it, it's done to balance the power dynamics between management and workers. A seniority system prevents shit like stack ranking.

huge · October 2

Union issues and they think Trump might be the answer? Strange bedfellows indeed.

F250 · October 2

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

Anybody who can crane a container from ship to dock can learn how to program as well. Anybody who can unload 15 tons of cargo can learn how to program for God's sake.

lol no.

I've seen plenty of college graduates with computer science degrees that never were able to pick up programing.

52-80 · October 2

10 minutes ago, F250 said:

lol no.

I've seen plenty of college graduates with computer science degrees that never were able to pick up programing.

Im quoting him who shall not be named 😶‍🌫️

BabaYaga · October 2

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

tie pay raises and promotion to performance?

huge · October 2

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

My understanding has always been that seniority completely rules (which can be a benefit or drawback) and that unions have traditionally pushed for systems where seniority governs pay raises, promotion eligibility, layoffs, etc. Is that still the case and if so, how is this not an argument to unwind seniority and tie pay raises and promotion to performance?

Anecdotal story from a client. I am in the staffing industry. We work with some of the Koch companies (no CR). One of their head talent people told a story about how in Wichita KS, they and Boeing were the 2 biggest employers (before Boeing moved out).

Basically anyone at Boeing that was union, Koch had no interest in because of the ingrained culture of seniority/tenure was all that mattered as far as raises went. Koch was the opposite, promoting based on performance and that rubbed any ex-Boeing people the wrong way.

I don't see much benefit from seniority rules.

F250 · October 2

15 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Im quoting him who shall not be named 😶‍🌫️

Ah yes, Voldermort.

Brisketexan · October 2

Anecdotal story from a client. I am in the staffing industry. We work with some of the Koch companies (no CR). One of their head talent people told a story about how in Wichita KS, they and Boeing were the 2 biggest employers (before Boeing moved out).
Basically anyone at Boeing that was union, Koch had no interest in because of the ingrained culture of seniority/tenure was all that mattered as far as raises went. Koch was the opposite, promoting based on performance and that rubbed any ex-Boeing people the wrong way.
I don't see much benefit from seniority rules.

It’s interesting - there are culture problems both ways. Long ago, I litigated a very big case against Koch, had me up in Wichita a lot. In the evenings, at local bars and such (I’m a social dude), I’d chat with locals. If the conversation got around to Koch, I heard several people comment “oh…they really make you drink the Kool Aid there.” The culture at Koch at that time was very closed, insular, and demanded total loyalty. A messed up over-the-top pro management approach. Balance is key.
We are very very bad and not good at balance.

huge · October 2

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It’s interesting - there are culture problems both ways. Long ago, I litigated a very big case against Koch, had me up in Wichita a lot. In the evenings, at local bars and such (I’m a social dude), I’d chat with locals. If the conversation got around to Koch, I heard several people comment “oh…they really make you drink the Kool Aid there.” The culture at Koch at that time was very closed, insular, and demanded total loyalty. A messed up over-the-top pro management approach. Balance is key.
We are very very bad and not good at balance.

100% Koch. They really see themselves as special.

locodos · October 2

Well,

This won't be popular, but longshoremen are staring into the void. I think they're trying to make a last stand, but the machines are coming for that ass.

956 Worldwide · October 2

1 hour ago, F250 said:

As I understand it, it's done to balance the power dynamics between management and workers. A seniority system prevents shit like stack ranking.

Yeah, I get that, I am not arguing for or against. It just seems like that union statement opens the door to getting away from that since it refers to workers with less seniority needing more pay and referencing how much/hard they work. The strict “six year ladder” seems like a seniority system the union had negotiated at one point.

F250 · October 2

11 minutes ago, locodos said:

Well,

This won't be popular, but longshoremen are staring into the void. I think they're trying to make a last stand, but the machines are coming for that ass.

The machines and AI are coming for a lot of people. Considering there has never been a serious national discussion to address the repercussions of automation it makes sense that the unions push back in order to protect their livelihood.

locodos · October 2

15 minutes ago, F250 said:

The machines and AI are coming for a lot of people. Considering there has never been a serious national discussion to address the repercussions of automation it makes sense that the unions push back in order to protect their livelihood.

Don't disagree. I don't really blame the union reps either. Hollywood went through this with the writer's strike. I feel like we as a nation can't even agree on feeding hungry children, how are we going to have a conversation about the "End of Work". Not everything is going to be done via computer/robot, but a shit load of things will. My favorite video about this from way way back in the day...

Edited October 2 by locodos

Rip76 · October 2

So last time they had a strike was 1977. I‘m just curious how Jimmy Carter and the government handled it then?

ryskey · October 2

Western Europe's port performance in general outpaces America's. So this doesn't have to be a contentious ideological divide between Management and Labor. The difference there appears to be a healthier and more collaborative, non-zero sum (or negative sum) approach between government, corporations, and labor.

Fudge Nuggets · October 2

3 hours ago, royiv said:

What’s an alternative mechanism to keep companies in check?

Don’t know, I’m not the one that said unions keep companies in check.

Fudge Nuggets · October 2

2 hours ago, F250 said:

lol no.

I've seen plenty of college graduates with computer science degrees that never were able to pick up programing.

And there are plenty of people with barely a HS degree that can code the shit out of degreed dorks.

52-80 · October 2

16 minutes ago, ryskey said:

Western Europe's port performance in general outpaces America's. So this doesn't have to be a contentious ideological divide between Management and Labor. The difference there appears to be a healthier and more collaborative, non-zero sum (or negative sum) approach between government, corporations, and labor.

fyi median annual earning for water transport industry in norway, probably highest paying in ex-US/CA western world, is $67k annually.

markstanco · October 2

5 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

Reading this thread there is little discussion of the business side of the equation and how their actions or lack thereof has gotten us to this point. They had plenty of time to act differently but like most businesses decided to maximize profits as long as possible until being forced to do otherwise. This is just that "forced to do otherwise" moment.

Their profits wont change. They will simply raise prices and all of us will see the increases.

Incredulity · October 2

3 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

fyi median annual earning for water transport industry in norway, probably highest paying in ex-US/CA western world, is $67k annually.

locodos · October 2

5 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

fyi median annual earning for water transport industry in norway, probably highest paying in ex-US/CA western world, is $67k annually.

Is that number cost adjusted?

F250 · October 2

13 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

And there are plenty of people with barely a HS degree that can code the shit out of degreed dorks.

Yes those exist but most of those guys were nerds learning on their own since they were kids.

GreenspointTexas · October 2

Your job has gotta be a pretty shitty one if automation can take it over just like that

MonkeyDoughnut · October 2

16 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

And there are plenty of people with barely a HS degree that can code the shit out of degreed dorks.

When we look to hire a developer a computer science degree is usually a negative, not a positive.

1 minute ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Your job has gotta be a pretty shitty one if automation can take it over just like that

most jobs are pretty shitty

Evil Bill Obrien · October 2

5 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Your job has gotta be a pretty shitty one if automation can take it over just like that

Think a whole lot of people are gonna be surprised to find out that they had a pretty shitty job then...

locodos · October 2

8 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Your job has gotta be a pretty shitty one if automation can take it over just like that

F250 · October 2

40 minutes ago, ryskey said:

Western Europe's port performance in general outpaces America's. So this doesn't have to be a contentious ideological divide between Management and Labor. The difference there appears to be a healthier and more collaborative, non-zero sum (or negative sum) approach between government, corporations, and labor.

A big difference is the social safety net in Western Europe that doesn't exist here. In the U.S. unions must fight for items that are already codified into law over there.

BabaYaga · October 2

9 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Your job has gotta be a pretty shitty one if automation can take it over just like that

52-80 · October 2

22 minutes ago, locodos said:

Is that number cost adjusted?

Adjusted for what cost?

like port/terminal specific financials? hard to back it out with granularity due to reasons ryskey mentioned

Pato del Muerto · October 2

Call their bluff on automation by including a provision that removes pallet jacks, fork lifts, cranes, or other job aids and make them carry it all however they did it 150 years ago. See if they have any issue with it.

Edited October 2 by Pato del Muerto

locodos · October 2

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Adjusted for what cost?

like port/terminal specific financials? hard to back it out with granularity due to reasons ryskey mentioned

Cost of living

Incredulity · October 2

1.) No way the Chinese port runs as smooth as presented in the above video. Every single warehouse/logistics automation project I have ever encountered is a clusterfuck of workarounds that include WAY more labor, often high paid to deal with software, than presented in the sales pitch. I would love to hear any Surly real world experience anecdotes counter to that.

2.) Even if PO's were cut today and earth was being moved its decades to automate all US ports to the level of that video.

BabaYaga · October 2

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

1.) No way the Chinese port runs as smooth as presented in the above video. Every single warehouse/logistics automation project I have ever encountered is a clusterfuck of workarounds that include WAY more labor, often high paid to deal with software, than presented in the sales pitch. I would love to hear any Surly real world experience anecdotes counter to that.

2.) Even if PO's were cut today and earth was being moved its decades to automate all US ports to the level of that video.

Not same same, but the Hong Kong ports are amazingly efficient.

52-80 · October 2

17 minutes ago, locodos said:

Cost of living

Using worldbank and oecd ppp adjustment, their earnings buys $68k us equivalent in 2022, 74k today.

it implies a basket of goods is cheaper in norway than in america in 2024 which seems nuts because norway is wildly expensive

locodos · October 2

22 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

1.) No way the Chinese port runs as smooth as presented in the above video. Every single warehouse/logistics automation project I have ever encountered is a clusterfuck of workarounds that include WAY more labor, often high paid to deal with software, than presented in the sales pitch. I would love to hear any Surly real world experience anecdotes counter to that.

2.) Even if PO's were cut today and earth was being moved its decades to automate all US ports to the level of that video.

Username checks out

IDK if automation in that video is 100% representative of real life, but I think you hit on the real point in #2. A level of automation is coming and countries around the world are updating their ports and infrastructure. So with that specter on the horizon or closer, would you wait to be concerned until after the PO's were cut?

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2024 port workers strike

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