2024 port workers strike

[Incredulity 11141]

1 minute ago, locodos said:

So with that specter on the horizon or closer, would you wait to be concerned until after the PO's were cut?

certainly not.  Just a bit of push back on the "last chance negotiation for labor" comments.

 

[locodos 5161]

19 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Using worldbank and oecd ppp adjustment, their earnings buys $68k us equivalent in 2022, 74k today. 

it implies a basket of goods is cheaper in norway than in america in 2024 which seems nuts because norway is wildly expensive

Lots of stuff is cheaper there too. 

United States is 41.1% more expensive than Norway.

https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/norway/united-states

 

[52-80 18967]

27 minutes ago, locodos said:

Lots of stuff is cheaper there too. 

United States is 41.1% more expensive than Norway.

https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/norway/united-states

 

The numbers on there look very sketchy. Numbeo.com crowdsources its values and tends to be accurate. (You can check it against all the places you’ve been to)

[F250 28382]

On 10/1/2024 at 12:05 PM, Captainant said:

For a pretty recent example, a bunch of plastics plant workers died in the flash flooding because they were called in that morning even with the storm barreling down. If you're an hourly worker barely making ends meet, would you risk NOT going to work and potentially upending your whole life when you've got no backup to protect you from management?

An investigation has been opened up.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/tennessee-investigating-plastics-factory-workers-trapped-hurricane-hel-rcna173597

 

[Captainant 26863]

5 minutes ago, F250 said:

An investigation has been opened up.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/tennessee-investigating-plastics-factory-workers-trapped-hurricane-hel-rcna173597

 

There's been quite a bit of noise being made by employees that have said they weren't allowed to leave because "the storm isn't that bad" and then it was flooding and they were fucked. Not sure if discussion would be better here or the hurricane thread or a new one

[F250 28382]

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

There's been quite a bit of noise being made by employees that have said they weren't allowed to leave because "the storm isn't that bad" and then it was flooding and they were fucked. Not sure if discussion would be better here or the hurricane thread or a new one

Probably the hurricane thread but it does speak to your point about the need for unions.

[royiv 9043]

3 hours ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Your job has gotta be a pretty shitty one if automation can take it over just like that

Staring at an anesthesia machine all day doesn’t seem all that exciting to me. And AA’s are coming for your overcompensated jobs.

Edited October 2 by royiv

[Schulz2.0 28616]

5 hours ago, locodos said:

Well,

This won't be popular, but longshoremen are staring into the void.  I think they're trying to make a last stand, but the machines are coming for that ass.  

 

I would assume that part of the negotiations would be that, in exchange for allowing some level of automation, the union would make the company agree to the creation of a certain number of union jobs that maintain the automation equipment (or something to that effect). 

[markstanco 12424]

3 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Not same same, but the Hong Kong ports are amazingly efficient.

And go on for a few miles.

Where do you stay when there?  The Gold Coast Hotel is pretty sweet, and the coffee is AMAZING. 

[BabaYaga 15116]

2 minutes ago, markstanco said:

And go on for a few miles.

Where do you stay when there?  The Gold Coast Hotel is pretty sweet, and the coffee is AMAZING. 

Shangri-La.  This was back in 2011.  Hit Nobu intercontinental and bought a bunch of fake shit (watches and purses) and then hit the China Club downtown on the last night.  Amazing place.  

[markstanco 12424]

34 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Shangri-La.  This was back in 2011.  Hit Nobu intercontinental and bought a bunch of fake shit (watches and purses) and then hit the China Club downtown on the last night.  Amazing place.  

I bought 4 "rolex" watches from there, $25 each.  They all broke within a year.  One when I was nailing something on my deer stand. All the shit inside the crystal was just floating around. 

[royiv 9043]

13 minutes ago, markstanco said:

I bought 4 "rolex" watches from there, $25 each.  They all broke within a year.  One when I was nailing something on my deer stand. All the shit inside the crystal was just floating around. 

That’ll teach you not to wear your Rolex while working on your deer stand.

[markstanco 12424]

1 minute ago, royiv said:

That’ll teach you not to wear your Rolex while working on your deer stand.

[atomheartbevo 88753]

16 minutes ago, markstanco said:

  One when I was nailing something on my deer stand. 

Holy fuck, are you RFK Jr and do I want to know what you were nailing?  You're not aggy are you?

[markstanco 12424]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

Shangri-La.  This was back in 2011.  Hit Nobu intercontinental and bought a bunch of fake shit (watches and purses) and then hit the China Club downtown on the last night.  Amazing place.  

Side story then the Surly sidetrack will stop.

I was with a co-worker there on a different trip 10ish years ago.  We finished up one day around 3 so found a bar.  They were doing karaoke so why not.  On the 2nd beer my co-worker looks at me and said "hey check out the hot chick over there".  I scan the bar looking, and see nothing but dudes.  Then it hit me.  Gay bar.  We stayed another hour because we were having a good time.  

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4956]

5 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Using worldbank and oecd ppp adjustment, their earnings buys $68k us equivalent in 2022, 74k today. 

it implies a basket of goods is cheaper in norway than in america in 2024 which seems nuts because norway is wildly expensive

I don't know about Norway, but if it is anything like here, you can't trust those figures. They are usually base pay. Most shift schedules have around 8 hours of overtime per paycheck built in. I hit my annual base pay mid August, with 9 paychecks left in the year. So I'll make about a third of my money from overtime this year. And I'm about average (I actually pulled up the company overtime database report the other day out of curiosity).

[52-80 18967]

1 minute ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I don't know about Norway, but if it is anything like here, you can't trust those figures. They are usually base pay. Most shift schedules have around 8 hours of overtime per paycheck built in. I hit my annual base pay mid August, with 9 paychecks left in the year. So I'll make about a third of my money from overtime this year. And I'm about average (I actually pulled up the company overtime database report the other day out of curiosity).

The norwegian figures come from tax, and they have very good record keeping. They even disaggregate base pay from bonus pay. 

The american (BLS) figure comes from self-reporting. been a while since i read exact survey methodology but the questions are extremely detailed — its possible to lie but theres no good reason. 

i think its something like how many hours did you work *last week*. how many of those were standard time. how many were OT. what was the total gross pay for *last week*.  the numbers could be skewed depending on when they perform the survey, but you figure over the long run it kinda averages out.

[TwiceHorn 30733]

So what's left to be automated?  Bulk?

Shit, we know from The Wire 20 years ago that Patapsco was near-fully automated for containers.  

Isn't that cat largely out of the bag?

[BurntOrange&White 38713]

What’s interesting to me is blue collar, even union blue collar people are against this union president for how he’s handling this issue. They had a great fucking offer. So stupid. And also if your job can be automated easily and be 24/7 operations your time is numbered especially when you won’t work 24/7. This president seems like he has his own agenda and ego and it’s going to fuck his workers long term. 

[Goofyboy 2957]

What’s interesting to me is blue collar, even union blue collar people are against this union president for how he’s handling this issue. They had a great fucking offer. So stupid. And also if your job can be automated easily and be 24/7 operations your time is numbered especially when you won’t work 24/7. This president seems like he has his own agenda and ego and it’s going to fuck his workers long term. 

He’s a Trump supporter. That’s his agenda.

[Incredulity 11141]

57 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

So what's left to be automated?  Bulk?

Shit, we know from The Wire 20 years ago that Patapsco was near-fully automated for containers.  

Isn't that cat largely out of the bag?

[Your Mom 4751]

52 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

What’s interesting to me is blue collar, even union blue collar people are against this union president for how he’s handling this issue. They had a great fucking offer. So stupid. And also if your job can be automated easily and be 24/7 operations your time is numbered especially when you won’t work 24/7. This president seems like he has his own agenda and ego and it’s going to fuck his workers long term. 

No union member cares if their president is likable or not. They just want the guy in there that can get them the best deal… period. They’re going to get better than what’s on the table. They won’t get what they’re asking for, but it will be better than what’s on the table now.  And nobody in that union cares what the public perception is of that. The public isn’t voting on this.   

[BurntOrange&White 38713]

12 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

No union member cares if their president is likable or not. They just want the guy in there that can get them the best deal… period. They’re going to get better than what’s on the table. They won’t get what they’re asking for, but it will be better than what’s on the table now.  And nobody in that union cares what the public perception is of that. The public isn’t voting on this.   

lol they will care when they’re replaced by automation. They’re being absolutely greedy fucks especially for the compensation they want. And that dudes comments on emphasize his ego and how fucking greedy he is for a job that doesn’t require skill. If they want the number they want then they’ll have to operate 24/7. 

Edited October 3 by BurntOrange&White

[Zepol87 9015]

On 10/1/2024 at 8:56 AM, Storm the Field said:

I usually strongly on the side of the unions in these situations, but "No automation at all, ever. We want guarantees that our jobs will always exist exactly as they are" is not a particularly sympathetic asking point. And having the Union Chief sitting there in his gold chains sounding like a guy in a bad mafia movie talking about shutting down the entire country is less than endearing.

Yea this guy isn’t helping at all. Grew up with a big ass union family. Electricians, plumbers and Auto workers union was a big part of my family for a long time. Helped the extended family out a ton love it and have no problems with them but my Tio would want to kick this dudes ass if he wasn’t in the ground. 
 

Also just because you are overworked in the office so suck it up isn’t a great argument.

Edited October 3 by Zepol87

[F250 28382]

25 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

No union member cares if their president is likable or not. They just want the guy in there that can get them the best deal… period. They’re going to get better than what’s on the table. They won’t get what they’re asking for, but it will be better than what’s on the table now.  And nobody in that union cares what the public perception is of that. The public isn’t voting on this.   

People are acting like they have a say in the matter. As you said, the union members only care about their contract demands and not what the public thinks. The guy has the backing of his members despite what everyone with lawyer hands thinks.

[Jameslaw121 4438]

9 hours ago, F250 said:

A big difference is the social safety net in Western Europe that doesn't exist here. In the U.S. unions must fight for items that are already codified into law over there.

In addition to typical social safety nets (SS, Universal HC, Maternity and Paternity leave), in Texas they made it pretty much legal to not give out door water breaks to to employees

UPS drivers don't get AC in their vans.

These are thing union have to fight for here that Western European countries don't have to worry about. They have a lot more room to maneuver for the good of their employees than Americans do

[Zepol87 9015]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

People are acting like they have a say in the matter. As you said, the union members only care about their contract demands and not what the public thinks. The guy has the backing of his members despite what everyone with lawyer hands thinks.

True every C suite exec level mfer doesn’t give a shit what anyone thinks as long as his bonuses hit and the board is happy. 

[Your Mom 4751]

5 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

lol they will care when they’re replaced by automation. They’re being absolutely greedy fucks especially for the compensation they want. And that dudes comments on emphasize his ego and how fucking greedy he is for a job that doesn’t require skill. If they want the number they want then they’ll have to operate 24/7. 

I’m not really following your line of reasoning here. They probably will get replaced by automation eventually. But it will have nothing to do with the likability of their union president or the public perception of their demands in this strike.  Neither of those two things matter in the least here. Not one little bit.
 

[52-80 18967]

9 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I don't know about Norway, but if it is anything like here, you can't trust those figures. They are usually base pay. Most shift schedules have around 8 hours of overtime per paycheck built in. I hit my annual base pay mid August, with 9 paychecks left in the year. So I'll make about a third of my money from overtime this year. And I'm about average (I actually pulled up the company overtime database report the other day out of curiosity).

Some more numbers, dug up by CBS:

The current ILA agreement sets the following for annualized base pay by 1/2/3/6 years of service: 40k/50k/64k/78k.

Their demand these figures increased to: 88k/98k/108k/138k. 

They already receive a form of revenue-sharing. It's called Container Royalty, collected from the tonnage they process, goes into the CRCC Fund, paying out ~$10k/employee/yr.

https://ilaunion.org/wp-content/uploads/Master-Contract-2018.pdf

New York Harbor's 2020 report collected payment information on 3500 workers, excluding their royal distributions.

The median pay is $150k. 33% earn $200k+.  25% earn $240k+ 10% earn $300k.

And this fun tidbit

Quote

Today, every terminal within the Port still has special compensation packages given to certain ILA longshore workers, the majority of whom are white males connected to organized crime figures or union
leadership. Based on the industry’s reported figures, the Commission has again identified over 590 individuals who collectively received over $147.6 million dollars last year in outsized salaries, or for hours
they never worked.

...

Connected individuals are awarded high paying, low-show or no-work special compensation packages, in some cases earning salaries in excess of $500,000.

https://waterfront.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2023/11/2018-2019_wcnyh_annual_report.pdf

 

 

[Bevo 13418]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

the Commission has again identified over 590 individuals who collectively received over $147.6 million dollars last year in outsized salaries, or for hours

 

I wonder if it is a coincidence that this is happening right before the election. Does the union and organized crime have enough power to let's say deliver Nevada in exchange for a lucrative deal?

[Bevo 13418]

5 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

I wonder if it is a coincidence that this is happening right before the election. Does the union and organized crime have enough power to let's say deliver Nevada in exchange for a lucrative deal?

Damn, no time to edit - The more likely case is that the longshore workers are counting on a deal being made because the political party in power cannot afford to have a surge in prices and a scarcity of goods as citizens are going to the voting booths.

[956 Worldwide 33958]

10 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

I wonder if it is a coincidence that this is happening right before the election. Does the union and organized crime have enough power to let's say deliver Nevada in exchange for a lucrative deal?

Gonna need to be some hard police work if it turns out the longshoremen are a political power in Nevada. 

[956 Worldwide 33958]

14 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

I would assume that part of the negotiations would be that, in exchange for allowing some level of automation, the union would make the company agree to the creation of a certain number of union jobs that maintain the automation equipment (or something to that effect). 

This makes a lot of sense.  On the automation bit, I can see a good argument for a deal that ensures current union members displaced by automation are given a guaranteed path to a comparable union job; and that new jobs created by automation are union jobs.

 

Where I can’t go is the argument for a certain number of guaranteed jobs for future generations— at that point you’re protecting the interest of the union as an institution and not actual current workers and doing so at the expense of vulnerabilities and inefficiency in critical national infrastructure. 

[InkaUtexas 24830]

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Gonna need to be some hard police work if it turns out the longshoremen are a political power in Nevada. 

Yo, that port in Yuma is booming.

[52-80 18967]

4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This makes a lot of sense.  On the automation bit, I can see a good argument for a deal that ensures current union members displaced by automation are given a guaranteed path to a comparable union job; and that new jobs created by automation are union jobs.

 

displaced union guys in their new job supervising the automation

[locodos 5161]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

displaced union guys in their new job supervising the automation

 

They'll all be wearing these

[RPM 26077]

We don't import toilet paper.

[BabaYaga 15116]

14 hours ago, markstanco said:

I bought 4 "rolex" watches from there, $25 each.  They all broke within a year.  One when I was nailing something on my deer stand. All the shit inside the crystal was just floating around. 

Lol, same.  I had an IWC that stayed with me for a few years, but it finally gave up the ghost like the others.  Brought back a few "Louie" purses also for friends wives.  Crap as well.  

Back to the ports.  Outside of certain types of manufacturing, I can't think of anything more perfectly suited to automation than these massive ports with huge cranes and thousands upon thousands of crates coming/going.  

[Js1 82429]

37 minutes ago, RPM said:

We don't import toilet paper.

Doesn't some come from Canada?

Not that we need to ship them from Canada via ports, they can just be trucked over. 

Edited October 3 by Js1

[BabaYaga 15116]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

Doesn't some come from Canada?

Not that we need to ship them from Canada via ports, they can just be trucked over. 

See, there's this thing with Canada.....and truckers.....

[Orange&White 5497]

11 hours ago, F250 said:

People are acting like they have a say in the matter. As you said, the union members only care about their contract demands and not what the public thinks. The guy has the backing of his members despite what everyone with lawyer hands thinks.

 

5 hours ago, Your Mom said:

I’m not really following your line of reasoning here. They probably will get replaced by automation eventually. But it will have nothing to do with the likability of their union president or the public perception of their demands in this strike.  Neither of those two things matter in the least here. Not one little bit.
 

Maybe. But in an election year, if this guy's "fuck you" attitude turns popular opinion against him and the people he represents, Joe could very well change his own opinion on Taft Hartley in order to help his party. And that would certainly matter to the union workers.

[TwiceHorn 30733]

12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

So what's left to be automated?  Bulk?

Shit, we know from The Wire 20 years ago that Patapsco was near-fully automated for containers.  

Isn't that cat largely out of the bag?

Answering my own question, there is a lot of automation already in eastern seaboard ports, but not in comparison with some cutting edge ports like Rotterdam.  One of the biggest items being automated unloading cranes that aren't present in much of the US.

So the "no automation" thing is a bit of a red herring.  It's more like "no more automation," at least until the next contract.

[UT_OB1 2193]

20 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Doesn't some come from Canada?

Not that we need to ship them from Canada via ports, they can just be trucked over. 

We make a shit ton of it here and in Mexico too

[RPM 26077]

18 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

See, there's this thing with Canada.....and truckers.....

More like tariffs on wood products. Either way, none comes thru EC Ports.

[BabaYaga 15116]

15 minutes ago, RPM said:

More like tariffs on wood products. 

My wife has a tariff on wood....it's called clean the house and dinner first.  

[Bevo 13418]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Gonna need to be some hard police work if it turns out the longshoremen are a political power in Nevada. 

 

 

Just based on the organized crime angle. How many ports are in swing states - Georgia and I'm not sure how big their port is and I doubt we are talking about a lot of votes that longshoremen can pull. I guess the other option is that the longshoremen can have a big impact on prices and can get generous concessions before the election just based on a potential price surge. But would the price increase be enough to swing a large number of votes?

[locodos 5161]

Just my luck, the strike apparently doesn't effect cruise lines. #overtourism

Edited October 3 by locodos

[Skipper 5955]

2 hours ago, Orange&White said:

 

Maybe. But in an election year, if this guy's "fuck you" attitude turns popular opinion against him and the people he represents, Joe could very well change his own opinion on Taft Hartley in order to help his party. And that would certainly matter to the union workers.

This.  Keep the fucking negative press on this douchebag leader and their ridiculous demands and you aren't going to risk many votes with the government intervening.  It's hard for anyone looking at this objectively to think that the ILA are the 'good guys' given these demands and demeanor.

Edited October 3 by Skipper

[MontereyMX 820]

3 hours ago, RPM said:

We don't import toilet paper.

over reactive fools!

[SquishMitten 10368]

4 hours ago, RPM said:

We don't import toilet paper.

There’s an entire pallet of Charmin in that picture.