The Veep Debate - Walz v. Vance, 9pm EST Tuesday, Oct 1st

[WelfareBuysMyWeed 5606]

9 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Purposefully avoided the debate and have tried to avoid searching out news about it, but the fact check whining and the “damning non answer” seem to be the two moments that have kinda elevated into real news.

Again, doubt this debate has much impact and I still might have some sourcing bias involved, but that doesn’t seem great for Vance.

The debate was milquetoast with JD Vance basically playing a typical slimeball politician who could largely keep his shtick in check unlike donald trump and Walz not being a career prosecutor like Kamala, but the "Damning non answer" part was a moment that really was on par with Kamala baiting and hitting Trump with haymakers. It wasn't just that he got Vance to refute the election on stage, it was how he played it immediately into the larger narrative: do you trust a stooge being the last line of defense against dictator trump? It was the most concise and well displayed message of the entire debate.

[Js1 85612]

CNN surprisingly went in on Vance's personality shift into this wannabe moderate politician. Bro is playing hard to be the 2028 guy, like he knows the internals are bad bad.

[Mo Horn 8855]

Lol

[atomheartbevo 89841]

9 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

 

I'm not saying Vance was ready to attend a Cure concert afterwards, but after all of the ridicule hurled his way for wearing eyeliner given what he thinks of the LBGTQ community, you would have thought he would have skipped it just this one night.

By the way, not bashing him if he went to Cure concert (he’s probably too young), as I attended two in the 80s in Houston (my parents had no clue).  

[Bateshorn 9942]

Beyond the fact it’ll be out of the news cycle by lunch, for Walz, this was basically a boxing match that he needed to represent well, and not get knocked out. He did that, won some late rounds on points, and managed to put Vance down on the canvas once to boot. Walz also didn’t get knocked down.

 

But as an undercard, it’s already forgotten.

Edited October 2 by Bateshorn

[Js1 85612]

2 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Beyond the fact it’ll be out of the news cycle by lunch, for Walz, this was basically a boxing match that he needed to represent well, and not get knocked out. He did that, won some late rounds on points, and managed to put Vance down on the canvas once to boot. Walz also didn’t get knocked down.

 

But as an undercard, it’s already forgotten.

This.  First rule of VP: do no harm.

Neither Walz nor Vance did anything stupid or said anything beyond the pale. Vance started strong, Walz knocked him around a bit at the end.  No major soundbite, no major gaffe.  No change to the race.  

Even the NBC focus group going 4-1 for Walz will not do anything for the race - it's about the top of the tickets, every time.  Paul Ryan didn't lose Romney the 2012 race, Romney lost it.  Tim Kaine didn't lose Hillary the 2016 race, she lost it.  Sarah Palin was a fucking moron, but Lehman, 8 years of Bush and Iraq/Afghanistan fatigue lost McCain 2008. 

[immamac 43212]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

This.  First rule of VP: do no harm.

Neither Walz nor Vance did anything stupid or said anything beyond the pale. Vance started strong, Walz knocked him around a bit at the end.  No major soundbite, no major gaffe.  No change to the race.  

Even the NBC focus group going 4-1 for Walz will not do anything for the race - it's about the top of the tickets, every time.  Paul Ryan didn't lose Romney the 2012 race, Romney lost it.  Tim Kaine didn't lose Hillary the 2016 race, she lost it.  Sarah Palin was a fucking moron, but Lehman, 8 years of Bush and Iraq/Afghanistan fatigue lost McCain 2008. 

Paul Ryan had to retire from politics, Tim Kaine is out as well, Sarah Palin became a meme and had her life fucked. Pence nearly was murdered and then jettisoned. 

VPs who lost had their careers effectively ruined. That's likely what's going to happen to Vance. He will never get the loser stink off of himself because he shit down his leg repeatedly. 

[Dnaguy 12109]

38 minutes ago, WelfareBuysMyWeed said:

 

They’re in college…..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[I hope 😬]

[quigley 1563]

2 minutes ago, immamac said:

Paul Ryan had to retire from politics, Tim Kaine is out as well, Sarah Palin became a meme and had her life fucked. Pence nearly was murdered and then jettisoned. 

VPs who lost had their careers effectively ruined. That's likely what's going to happen to Vance. He will never get the loser stink off of himself because he shit down his leg repeatedly. 

I think you and @Js1 are talking about different things.

JS1: results of VP debate on this election

immamac: results of being a VP candidate's effect on candidate's career

[immamac 43212]

Winner VPs turn into presidents and people who do shit. Loser VPs do loser shit. Paul Ryan is a psuedo exception as he tried the redemption arc thing and got shit on. 

[Js1 85612]

1 minute ago, quigley said:

I think you and @Js1 are talking about different things.

JS1: results of VP debate on this election

immamac: results of being a VP candidate's effect on candidate's career

Yeah, let's be real

Paul Ryan didn't retire because he lost in 2012 - he retired because his caucus turned on him (like they did to Boehner before him and McCarthy after him...)
Palin quit on her state 2 years later and then tried to run for Congress a dozen years later
Kaine is still in the Senate, just had no national ambition after 2016.  And that's fine, he's doing what he is better at
If you want to be more recent, Pence gained no traction in the 2024 primary, but no one did but Trump, so didn't really matter. 

Vance is clearly (and I've said this a lot) going to try to pin a loss in November 100% on Trump to protect himself in 2028 - either as a candidate for POTUS or to protect his own ass for re-election.  His pesudo-wannabe-moderate image last night was completely him rehabbing his image so he can blame a loss on Trump.  

[Goredho 17423]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

Finishing up with the Jan 6 stuff was devastating for Vance IMO…. I don’t think it will change anyone’s mind but I think it will help with dem voter turnout.

Most people I know, including myself, had turned it off by that point.  I was not getting anything out of it, my vote is decided.  I’m hoping that undecideds stayed tuned in longer to have witnessed the devastation.

By the time I turned it off, I thought it was basically a no-op and my wife (also a decided voter) thought Vance performed better than Walz.  She is not as politically informed and so without any fact checking, it was a he-said, she-said to her, with Vance saying it “better” or at least more polished.  He probably also gets a lift just by not being Trumpesque in his communication style.  She said she’s glad Vance isn’t the one running for President.

I was a bit disappointed in Walz, to be honest.  He looked somewhat uncomfortable while I was watching and while he did call Vance on his BS often, it just came across as two kids blaming each other for various messes after their parents came home.  He’s a lot like Trump in that he’s top notch in a rally setting where it’s about intensity and emotion and conveying passionate belief in your cause and evoking that in others, but debating isn’t his strong suit.

Maybe the J6 stuff at the end moves the needle with undecideds, but I think last night will be a push with neither side taking any new ground.

[safe sex 11796]

15 minutes ago, immamac said:

Paul Ryan had to retire from politics, Tim Kaine is out as well, Sarah Palin became a meme and had her life fucked. Pence nearly was murdered and then jettisoned. 

VPs who lost had their careers effectively ruined. That's likely what's going to happen to Vance. He will never get the loser stink off of himself because he shit down his leg repeatedly. 

Tim Kaine is still the junior senator from Virginia

[Js1 85612]

 

 

[quigley 1563]

6 minutes ago, immamac said:

Winner VPs turn into presidents and people who do shit. Loser VPs do loser shit

Let's go back as far as 1976:

Mondale: not president

Bush - elder: president

Gore: no

Chaney: no

Biden: yes

Pence: barely alive

Harris: ?

So 2/6.

The latter statement is 100%. Kaine has the best outcome, and there are some real falls from grace. Rockefeller, Mondale, Ferraro, Gore, Edwards (lol), Palin (lol), Ryan, Kaine (EVEN), Pence.

[quigley 1563]

16 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Vance is clearly (and I've said this a lot) going to try to pin a loss in November 100% on Trump to protect himself in 2028 - either as a candidate for POTUS or to protect his own ass for re-election.  His pesudo-wannabe-moderate image last night was completely him rehabbing his image so he can blame a loss on Trump.  

I truly hope he runs for Prez again in 2028 because he won't be able to run for Senate and Prez concurrently.

The oppo file on him is Project 2025 + all the stupid stuff he's said to earn Trump's nomination + all the dumb stuff during this campaign + all the stupid stuff he'll say/do in the next 4 yrs. Truly horrid candidate. Please run.

Edited October 2 by quigley

[Pancho 45074]

 

I don’t know that a loss ruins JV. I think it’s going to be Vance vs Haley for 2028 if turnip is dead. I think Thiel and Musk will make sure to continue to prop up their candidate and that is either Vance or Vivek to go against Haley.

[Js1 85612]

1 minute ago, quigley said:

I truly hope he runs for Prez again in 2028 because he won't be able to run for Senate and Prez concurrently.

Don’t knock the Ohio GOP’s ability to pass a law to change that or allow an exception for running for POTUS. I believe Florida did that and Texas may have as well 

[kevwun 15936]

Vance has absolutely no charisma.  He's never going to be President because he will never be able to win the Republican nomination.

Edited October 2 by kevwun

['stache 21892]

3 minutes ago, quigley said:

I truly hope he runs for Prez again in 2028 because he won't be able to run for Senate and Prez concurrently.

The oppo file on him is Project 2025 + all the stupid stuff he's said to earn Trump's nomination + all the dumb stuff during this campaign + all the stupid stuff he'll say/do in the next 4 yrs. Truly horrid candidate. Please run.

‘Member when “flip flopper” was like the worst thing one could be called in politics? I ‘member.

JD 2020: Trump is Hitler

JD 2024: Trump is the best ever

He screwed either way in 2028. If the party tries to get away from Trump he’s on record loving the guy. If they stick to courting maga he’ll be blamed for the loss and that he called him Hitler. All on top of being completely unlikeable and having no genuine beliefs whatsoever, at least none that can be determined from his public comments.

[Hiphopopotamos 20889]

Ignore the idiots back and forth - the polling is good stuff.

[Biff Tannen 45750]

20 minutes ago, Js1 said:

 

 

I don't know what that means

[Js1 85612]

NSIAP, but I am catching up still from last night -

Fox post-debate:
Changed mind - 1% Harris, 1% Trump
Reconsidering choice - 8% Harris, 14% Trump
No effect - 91% Harris, 85% Trump

CNN post-debate:
82% said no effect on decision
14% said they are reconsidering their choice
4% said it changed their mind

More Trump supports were wavering in their support than Harris' voters among those who said they were reconsidering - 23 to 12

CNN post-debate:
48-39 in favor of Walz for sharing their vision for America
37-33 in favor of Vance doing a better job defending running mate
48-35 in favor of Walz for being more in touch with their peoples and problem like them

Vance increased his favorability to 41/44, up from 30/52
Walz destroyed him in favorability, 59/22, up from 46/32

[RomaVicta 30033]

1 hour ago, WelfareBuysMyWeed said:

The debate was milquetoast with JD Vance basically playing a typical slimeball politician who could largely keep his shtick in check unlike donald trump and Walz not being a career prosecutor like Kamala, but the "Damning non answer" part was a moment that really was on par with Kamala baiting and hitting Trump with haymakers. It wasn't just that he got Vance to refute the election on stage, it was how he played it immediately into the larger narrative: do you trust a stooge being the last line of defense against dictator trump? It was the most concise and well displayed message of the entire debate.

I just opened the thread and this is exactly my feeling and response. 

As with Biden, I think Walz was over prepped so that he felt he had to get in every single detail of a practiced answer. The answers were solid in the old paradigm way of policies mattering.

On the policies that are prominent enough to actually matter, Walz did very well on the rights of people to make their own choices about medical decisions. He particularly did a good job of defining the issue of abortion rights as a matter of liberty. We're not pro-abortion, we're pro-rights.

Of course, the damning non answer exchange was key. There were opportunities to make points about this throughout, but I think feeling the need to get a point across rather than consider more what the opponent said and attacking is what limited Walz as it did Biden.

It's difficult to debate a constant liar in a format that allows so little time. In that debate in that format, I'd go after the overall issues of constant dishonesty, clear hostility to democracy, and some detail about Project 2025. Walz' excellent quality of seeing the good in people and believing in general good faith provided contrast. 

I found myself terribly stressed throughout the debate. It got worse and worse. My emotional reaction was way out of proportion to what was being said on the TV screen. 

There is so much at stake. The electorate should have no problem seeing the difference between a lying, grifting, felon who wants to rule rather than govern and the clearly pro-democracy, decent candidates with good policy goals.

It drives me nuts that tens of millions of voters don't get it. On both sides. I don't think the wave of support for Harris is about the fate of the republic. I think it's mostly an emotional response to a positive, hope-driven look to the future.

In the end, it seems to simply boil down to the emotional choice between hate and tolerance. Maybe that's okay, but it seems tenuous to me. 

Thanks to anyone who reads this long post. 

Edited October 2 by RomaVicta

[Red Five 40907]

"Empty" is probably the best word to describe Vance last night. Started off seeming polished and doing well, but by the end you're like "Um he has done nothing but lie and not answer questions." 

[Pancho 45074]

Lewendsowski melting down on cnn right now lol

['stache 21892]

I heard Axelrod say that Walz was true to himself and asking him to go outside his comfort zone into some kind of attack dog would do more harm than good. I totally agree. Let Kamala be the prosecutor and let Walz be everyone’s favorite uncle. It’s working. 

[Js1 85612]

5 minutes ago, Red Five said:

"Empty" is probably the best word to describe Vance last night. Started off seeming polished and doing well, but by the end you're like "Um he has done nothing but lie and not answer questions." 

If he had any semblance of charisma, he'd be a hell of a used car salesman.

Just now, Pancho said:

Lewendsowski melting down on cnn right now lol

Internals must be fucking bad

[Chuckie Finster 22756]

 

 

[RomaVicta 30033]

13 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Vance has absolutely no charisma.  He's never going to be President because he will never be able to win the Republican nomination.

I just got a chill. 

RomaVicta 2016:

Trump will never be nominated.

[atomheartbevo 89841]

41 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Vance is clearly (and I've said this a lot) going to try to pin a loss in November 100% on Trump to protect himself in 2028 - either as a candidate for POTUS or to protect his own ass for re-election.  His pesudo-wannabe-moderate image last night was completely him rehabbing his image so he can blame a loss on Trump.  

24 minutes ago, quigley said:

I truly hope he runs for Prez again in 2028 because he won't be able to run for Senate and Prez concurrently.

The oppo file on him is Project 2025 + all the stupid stuff he's said to earn Trump's nomination + all the dumb stuff during this campaign + all the stupid stuff he'll say/do in the next 4 yrs. Truly horrid candidate. Please run.

21 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Vance has absolutely no charisma.  He's never going to be President because he will never be able to win the Republican nomination.

Vance has Peter Thiel money behind him, something that Cruz, etc. can’t even begin to touch.  It won’t get him the White House, but he can do some damage in 2028,

[kevwun 15936]

Trump has an act that appeals to people.  JD does not.  He's comes off as being odd no matter what group of people you place him in.

[4th&Five 41602]

26 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Vance has absolutely no charisma.  He's never going to be President because he will never be able to win the Republican nomination.

You think Trump is living out a full term? He absolutely has a chance to be president and that should scare the shit out of everyone. 

[Hank Kingsley 21060]

27 minutes ago, Pancho said:

 

I don’t know that a loss ruins JV. I think it’s going to be Vance vs Haley for 2028 if turnip is dead. I think Thiel and Musk will make sure to continue to prop up their candidate and that is either Vance or Vivek to go against Haley.

It feels almost impossible to predict how Trumpers are going to react to other politicians if Trump loses and doesn't run in 2028. It's such a cult of personality. 

In that scenario, I find it highly unlikely that Trump is going to support any future candidate. He is not a Republican, and he doesn't give one shit about anyone else but himself. If he can't be President, then no one should be President in his mind. 

Trump is a total anomaly and will never be replicated again. Once he's gone, it is a completely fractured party with zero guidance on where to go next. 

 

[CooterBrown 18033]

1 hour ago, immamac said:

Paul Ryan had to retire from politics, Tim Kaine is out as well, Sarah Palin became a meme and had her life fucked. Pence nearly was murdered and then jettisoned. 

VPs who lost had their careers effectively ruined. That's likely what's going to happen to Vance. He will never get the loser stink off of himself because he shit down his leg repeatedly. 

[Bateshorn 9942]

Let's state the obvious: Lloyd Bentson wiped the floor with Dan Quayle.  Dukakis still got his shit pushed in. 

[TexEx15 17572]

[SydneyCarton 48212]

18 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

It feels almost impossible to predict how Trumpers are going to react to other politicians if Trump loses and doesn't run in 2028. It's such a cult of personality. 

In that scenario, I find it highly unlikely that Trump is going to support any future candidate. He is not a Republican, and he doesn't give one shit about anyone else but himself. If he can't be President, then no one should be President in his mind. 

Trump is a total anomaly and will never be replicated again. Once he's gone, it is a completely fractured party with zero guidance on where to go next. 

 

He will endorse whoever pays him for his endorsement. And that shit will fucking happen. If Donald trump loses, after the chaos that ensues, the rest of his life will be a combination of court rooms, and being paid to appear and endorse other candidates and rally and grift. 

Edited October 2 by SydneyCarton

[aggie08 21559]

39 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Vance increased his favorability to 41/44, up from 30/52

Got to give him credit: getting his favorability anywhere near even is a win for him. He did about as well as he possibly could given his general off-putting personality, who his boss is, and having to defend things they've said and done.

[Chuckie Finster 22756]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

Got to give him credit: getting his favorability anywhere near even is a win for him. He did about as well as he possibly could given his general off-putting personality, who his boss is, and having to defend things they've said and done.

The problem for JD is that 99.9% of his days on this earth do not involve him taking part in a debate, and the American public has overwhelmingly decided that they do not like him on those days.

[RomaVicta 30033]

18 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Trump has an act that appeals to people.  JD does not.  He's comes off as being odd no matter what group of people you place him in.

Trump won't be replaced by any simple formula that has worked to get the GOP nomination in the past. As you say, Trump brings a specific act that got that nomination in ways nobody anticipated. Part of it was he was not on the usual train track for elected politicians.

MAGAs need someone to maintain their totally impenetrable sphere of dumb/greedy white man fantasies about the world as it is and can be. They see Trump as chosen by God to champion their lunacy. If someone replaces Trump in these ways, I doubt the person comes from politics.

We may end up with his coked-up son as a nominee. His raving deceit and lunacy might just fit the bill. 

Idiot World

[Hank Kingsley 21060]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

He will endorse whoever pays him for his endorsement. And that shit will fucking happen. 

Maybe, but I don't think so. That's not how narcissists operate. He's been happy to endorse people beneath him, but for POTUS? That's his job. If he can't be President, no one should. 

 

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13528]

I casually watched last night. It didn't help Walz that he was nervous at the beginning. Understandable but he should have had a rehearsed but seemingly natural opening remarks. Vance did it right by opening about his past. Hopefully a candidate can give a elevator speech about themselves without sounding nervous.

[jimmyjazz 46249]

45 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Lewendsowski melting down on cnn right now lol

I saw that.  He is on my list of the top 5 people I would pay for the chance to punch in the face.

[Willfully Horn 8058]

I’m thankful for Norah O’Donnell and Margaret Brennan as their questions were often fact based. That’s one way to deal with directives that there will be no fact checking. Kudos, ladies.

[Js1 85612]

17 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

The problem for JD is that 99.9% of his days on this earth do not involve him taking part in a debate, and the American public has overwhelmingly decided that they do not like him on those days.

It doesn’t help that Walz improved his great favorables to even better. Walz went from liked to LOVED 

[Dnaguy 12109]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

I don't know what that means

I’ve never had Fortnite skin.

 

[TheStoicPaisano 9939]

 

[jimmyjazz 46249]

13 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I casually watched last night. It didn't help Walz that he was nervous at the beginning. Understandable but he should have had a rehearsed but seemingly natural opening remarks.

Well, Walz allegedly told Kamala Harris during her vetting process that he is a bad debater.  I don't know that more rehearsal would have helped.  It's entirely possible that his nerves led him off their strategic path.

[SydneyCarton 48212]

26 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Maybe, but I don't think so. That's not how narcissists operate. He's been happy to endorse people beneath him, but for POTUS? That's his job. If he can't be President, no one should. 

 

 

I wasn't thinking specifically for a president. I'm not sure I see that either. But Trump thinks he's a celebrity, first and foremost. He's lent his name to not only his own shitty poducts for years, but plenty of other products as well. I don't think he'll view this any differently than any other endorsement or product he's hucked his entire life. Hell, you see it now with him taking a lions share of funds for other politicians using his name and likeness in fundraising. This will just be the same thing, only more pathetic.