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Cryptocurrencies (Bitcoin, Ethereum, Litecoin, etc.)

surlybevo

By surlybevo
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UTGrad98

UTGrad98 2342

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Posted
9 hours ago, huge said:

I have some BTC in Coinbase.  I have never followed this thread and I just bought BTC for some diversity.  I think got it around $30k.

Send it to me and I'll hold it for you and give you a 20% return. I will however need a second investor. 

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Blotto

Blotto 24022

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Headlines saying TSLA sold 75% of its bitcoin. I guess they needed cash?

I doubt a pressing need for cash would be the reason TSLA sold ~$1B worth of BTC, as they already had about $18B in cash on the books. The price of BTC fell about $1000 immediately with the release of the quarterly numbers, but it has gained about half of that loss back since. It will be interesting to hear the "official" Tesla rationale when its discussed on their investor call which just started. 

 

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Rimbo

Rimbo 27030

Posted
Posted

This is an hour long, and worth your time if you have it.

 

Tl;Dr: cryptocurrency/Blockchain are jokes to actual cryptography/CS researchers, using technologies that have been around for decades, and they're bad answers to the things they claim to solve.

He calls the lecture "immunizing against stupidity."

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Humble Beast

Humble Beast 258

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rimbo said:

This is an hour long, and worth your time if you have it.

 

Tl;Dr: cryptocurrency/Blockchain are jokes to actual cryptography/CS researchers, using technologies that have been around for decades, and they're bad answers to the things they claim to solve.

He calls the lecture "immunizing against stupidity."

I’m about halfway through. I don’t give a shit about any argument he has against cryptocurrencies across the board. I can address his bitcoin criticism specifically, but there’s nothing really groundbreaking there.
 

I’ll finish the rest tomorrow, but this guy fundamentally comes from a mindset that there’s no need for or value to a permissionless, censorship/confiscation resistant money that is not issued by a state. He’s a statist. His exact quote “censorship resistance is crime” was quite telling. If you agree with that statement then Bitcoin is not for you. 

Edited by Humble Beast
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Rimbo

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Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Humble Beast said:

I’m about halfway through. I don’t give a shit about any argument he has against cryptocurrencies across the board. I can address his bitcoin criticism specifically, but there’s nothing really groundbreaking there.
 

I’ll finish the rest tomorrow, but this guy fundamentally comes from a mindset that there’s no need for or value to a permissionless, censorship/confiscation resistant money that is not issued by a state. He’s a statist. His exact quote “censorship resistance is crime” was quite telling. If you agree with that statement then Bitcoin is not for you. 

You're missing the point.

The point isn't that there's no need for it. The point is that it doesn't work at all that way, and even where it does work, there are better alternatives.

And he goes into detail that existing crypto solutions effectively have authority anyway.

But anyway, ignore what this guy says, and you're a sucker. An easy mark.

This guy is saying what I and other computer scientists have been saying for decades. And if you don't believe us, then... Well, a fool and his money are soon parted.

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Humble Beast

Humble Beast 258

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Posted
13 hours ago, Rimbo said:

You're missing the point.

The point isn't that there's no need for it. The point is that it doesn't work at all that way, and even where it does work, there are better alternatives.

And he goes into detail that existing crypto solutions effectively have authority anyway.

But anyway, ignore what this guy says, and you're a sucker. An easy mark.

This guy is saying what I and other computer scientists have been saying for decades. And if you don't believe us, then... Well, a fool and his money are soon parted.

Pretty much all cryptos are heavily centralized. He mentioned the Eth Dao hack and subsequent fork. I agree that disqualifies Ethereum from being classified as decentralized. Again, I’m not here to defend anything outside of bitcoin. 
 

He says bitcoin miner concentration means miners control bitcoin. That was disproven when the UASF happened. Users/nodes control bitcoin. He states things as absolutes that are not so. 
 

Also, unless he gets into it in the second half of the video, he makes no mention of the Lightning network being built as a second layer. Increases transaction volumes, speed and privacy (bet he hates that!). Maybe he didn’t mention it because it’s not a layer 1 blockchain and that was the focus of his talk. 
 

As far as what you and other CS experts have to say, my guess is you will continue to say it’s uninteresting, unnecessary, doesn’t work, and has no value all while the ecosystem continues to grow and evolve. Just being an expert doesn’t preclude one from being horribly wrong. 

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Humble Beast

Humble Beast 258

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Posted
40 minutes ago, pronghorn said:

another crypto employee (coinbase this time vs opensea) caught for insider trading.

its like this whole industry is full of scam artist.

I’m anti “crypto” but acting like a Coinbase employee being busted for insider trading is some big gotcha is pretty silly. Ever looked at the legacy financial system? Cmon. 

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Rimbo

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33 minutes ago, Humble Beast said:

Pretty much all cryptos are heavily centralized. He mentioned the Eth Dao hack and subsequent fork. I agree that disqualifies Ethereum from being classified as decentralized. Again, I’m not here to defend anything outside of bitcoin. 
 

He says bitcoin miner concentration means miners control bitcoin. That was disproven when the UASF happened. Users/nodes control bitcoin. He states things as absolutes that are not so. 
 

Also, unless he gets into it in the second half of the video, he makes no mention of the Lightning network being built as a second layer. Increases transaction volumes, speed and privacy (bet he hates that!). Maybe he didn’t mention it because it’s not a layer 1 blockchain and that was the focus of his talk. 
 

As far as what you and other CS experts have to say, my guess is you will continue to say it’s uninteresting, unnecessary, doesn’t work, and has no value all while the ecosystem continues to grow and evolve. Just being an expert doesn’t preclude one from being horribly wrong. 

Sure, it doesn't preclude us from being horribly wrong. But it does mean that we generally know what we're talking about. You talk like we're unaware of Lightning and the UASF, things that happened long before I got involved with it (and came to these conclusions) and long before this lecture (which was given this Spring). I mean, this is some Dunning-Krueger shit you're pulling here: "You could be wrong! Just because I wouldn't know P=NP from a stack of unsorted punch cards doesn't mean you couldn't be wrong!"

All we're saying is

  • There are intractable problems that keep cryptocurrency from being what the true believers hoped it would be; and once you eliminate that possibility, the existing financial system does a better job of anything it could become. What few things are worth doing are already being done by the existing system. 
  • That the folks who hyperbolically claim how "innovative" the blockchain space is, are painfully unaware of what actual innovation looks like.

And yeah, we're going to keep saying it, because all of the available evidence shows we're right. You can make money off of it, but you're just gambling with a rigged system.

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Rimbo

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Posted
1 hour ago, pronghorn said:

another crypto employee (coinbase this time vs opensea) caught for insider trading.

its like this whole industry is full of scam artist.

It's not! At least, not 100%.

You can break down the industry into 3 groups. Everyone in it is one or more (and sometimes all three) of these things:

  • Scam artists. You're dealing with something that is either unregulated, designed to skirt regulation, or simply ignored by regulators, so obviously any criminal is immediately going to glom onto it.
  • True believers. These are the naive folks (like Vitalik Buterin) who actually believe in the cause, who must close their eyes to mathematical truths to continue their religion of Upending the Financial System. 
  • Opportunists -- just there to make a buck. Either by gambling on the markets, building software for the people in the above two categories, or selling hardware to miners.
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Neonmoon

Neonmoon 38130

Posted
Posted
17 hours ago, Rimbo said:

This is an hour long, and worth your time if you have it.

 

Tl;Dr: cryptocurrency/Blockchain are jokes to actual cryptography/CS researchers, using technologies that have been around for decades, and they're bad answers to the things they claim to solve.

He calls the lecture "immunizing against stupidity."

 

15 hours ago, Humble Beast said:

I’m about halfway through. I don’t give a shit about any argument he has against cryptocurrencies across the board. I can address his bitcoin criticism specifically, but there’s nothing really groundbreaking there.
 

I’ll finish the rest tomorrow, but this guy fundamentally comes from a mindset that there’s no need for or value to a permissionless, censorship/confiscation resistant money that is not issued by a state. He’s a statist. His exact quote “censorship resistance is crime” was quite telling. If you agree with that statement then Bitcoin is not for you. 

 

1 hour ago, Humble Beast said:

Pretty much all cryptos are heavily centralized. He mentioned the Eth Dao hack and subsequent fork. I agree that disqualifies Ethereum from being classified as decentralized. Again, I’m not here to defend anything outside of bitcoin. 
 

He says bitcoin miner concentration means miners control bitcoin. That was disproven when the UASF happened. Users/nodes control bitcoin. He states things as absolutes that are not so. 
 

Also, unless he gets into it in the second half of the video, he makes no mention of the Lightning network being built as a second layer. Increases transaction volumes, speed and privacy (bet he hates that!). Maybe he didn’t mention it because it’s not a layer 1 blockchain and that was the focus of his talk. 
 

As far as what you and other CS experts have to say, my guess is you will continue to say it’s uninteresting, unnecessary, doesn’t work, and has no value all while the ecosystem continues to grow and evolve. Just being an expert doesn’t preclude one from being horribly wrong. 

 

Apu takes bullet | WEIRD CRYPTO BROS; BITCOIN; FACTS | image tagged in apu takes bullet | made w/ Imgflip meme maker

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Humble Beast

Humble Beast 258

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Rimbo said:

What few things are worth doing

Again, this is a big part of your argument. You don’t think there’s anything useful or unique about a system that allows digital peer to peer transfer without a third party intermediary. Or one that is confiscation or censorship resistant.
 

So if you think it’s all pointless, then to you it’s all a waste and should have no monetary value. The fact that it does is apparently quite frustrating. 

 

1 hour ago, Rimbo said:

You talk like we're unaware of Lightning and the UASF

He didn’t seem like he was aware of the UASF considering he said that miners control bitcoin. 

 

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Rimbo

Rimbo 27030

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Posted
1 hour ago, Humble Beast said:

Again, this is a big part of your argument. You don’t think there’s anything useful or unique about a system that allows digital peer to peer transfer without a third party intermediary. Or one that is confiscation or censorship resistant.
 

You're either being deliberately obtuse or you're just stupid: I've stated repeatedly that it would be useful. It's that cryptocurrency doesn't work for that purpose; never has, and never will. There are other things that work just fine; gold bullion, even cash.

And as for unique? There's nothing unique about a broken systems, failed promises, and hype that doesn't nearly meet reality. That kind of shit happens all the time.

1 hour ago, Humble Beast said:

So if you think it’s all pointless, then to you it’s all a waste and should have no monetary value.
 

Again, don't tell me what I think. It obviously has monetary value -- manipulated and speculated monetary value based on people's perceptions. That's a perfectly valid way to have value. It just doesn't have any value as a replacement currency.

1 hour ago, Humble Beast said:

The fact that it does is apparently quite frustrating. 

Why do you find this frustrating?

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Humble Beast

Humble Beast 258

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Rimbo said:

You're either being deliberately obtuse or you're just stupid: I've stated repeatedly that it would be useful.

You say this, but you also say this. 
 

6 hours ago, Rimbo said:

What few things are worth doing are already being done by the existing system. 

But there is no system of direct peer to peer transfer without a trusted third party available being done by the existing system. 
 

If you say it’s not something worth doing then I extrapolate that you don’t find it to be useful. But we’re arguing semantics. You think it’s all dumb. I don’t. 
 

3 hours ago, Rimbo said:

Why do you find this frustrating?

You’re the one on an enthusiast’s thread attempting to poo poo on the subject matter of said thread. I’m doing great. Something drove you here. 
 

616-A85-B8-EE20-42-A6-9-FDE-87-D299-A4-F

 

6 hours ago, Rimbo said:

True believers. These are the naive folks (like Vitalik Buterin) who actually believe in the cause

I had to circle back to this. Of all people to place under true believers, Vitalik is a fucking scammer. The driving force behind an ICO that was massively premined. All while Fudding bitcoin (he coined the term bitcoin maximalist as a pejorative) to drive people to his coin that was again, premined. 
 

Of course now he’s hinting at realization that he was wrong about a good bit of it.
 

 

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pronghorn

pronghorn 44

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Humble Beast said:

I’m anti “crypto” but acting like a Coinbase employee being busted for insider trading is some big gotcha is pretty silly. Ever looked at the legacy financial system? Cmon. 

HEY! LET'S IGNORE ILLEGALITY and complete and regular fraud because other industry has bad actors 4

how many shtcoins have gone to zero? how many millions / billions? vanished with founders or OG investors getting out before others got fleeced.

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pronghorn

pronghorn 44

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So crypto has created an entire shadow in my mind, [an] illegal stack, that is skirting securities regulations. I believe the overwhelming majority of tokens are securities, but they're being dumped onto retail investors. And this is being done explicitly by venture firms. I won't mention any names who are buying into companies early, getting into tokens, and then those tokens are being listed on exchanges and the public can buy into them. The public is buying into them, a common enterprise, in order to get a financial gain. They have no interest in using those tokens for any utility. These are not Chuck E. Cheese tokens, right? They're not United miles.

We all know what's going on here. And to then liquidate your position in the second or third year of the crypto company — and I'm not going to mention any specific companies here or firms, but you don't need to be a genius to just look at the activity out there. This is going to blow up in the faces of the venture community. Regulators are very permissive in our country. Our country, generally our legal system is you're innocent until proven guilty. But I think there's a lot of guilty parties that, you know, flipped securities and called them tokens. And I think the SEC, Justice Department is in the first inning of taking action against these companies. And sure it would be better if they had given us clear guidelines, but having been in the room for these discussions over the past five years, people suspended disbelief. They shopped for attorneys who told them what they wanted to believe about tokens and the, what is it, the Howie Test, you know, listen, I'm no lawyer. Don't take advice from me. I'm just a kid from Brooklyn.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-21/transcript-jason-calacanis-on-the-expensive-lesson-coming-to-silicon-valley?srnd=premium

Quote

Yeah. So people knew, Tracy, that what they were doing was fugazi. They knew that this was a grift. I have no sympathy on anybody who gets their wrist slapped or gets a speeding ticket or worse because I would like to see accreditation laws be changed so that people can take a test just like a driver's test, or in the few states that have gun owner tests, gun permit tests. We could just educate people, maybe take a three hour course, you take a 50-question test. It doesn't have to be a Series 7, but ‘hey, this is diversification. Hey, these are risky assets. These are non-liquid assets. This is preferred shares. These are common shares. You know, here's how governance works. Here's how boards work.’ Just so you know, a normal person who's not in the top 6% of the country who are accredited investors could participate in this.

That's what the SEC needs to do. That's what our government needs to do. Have a path for people to be educated, to participate in these things. What the country doesn't need is for sophisticated investors to then create a path for people to circumvent the securities law and then flip tokens. I have spent the last five years being criticized because I've said all along, you know, if you can't use the product, if you can't talk to the customers, you know, calling back to your asking me about that tweet I did and my experience as a journalist, if you can't talk to the customers, you can't use the product, then it's probably either a fraud where it's a pre-launched company. And I think the majority of these tokens that are being sold are either pre-launch companies, which would value them at $3 to $10 million or they’re frauds, or they're run by incompetents or they’re frauds run by incompetents. It's some combination of those three buckets. And I invest in the first bucket — pre-launch companies or you know, about to launch MPPs all the time in my accelerator, but I don't take the shares of those companies and put them on a listing and tell people ‘have fun staying poor if you don't buy these tokens and you don't get it. Okay. Boomer,’ and all this other bullsh*t that these very sophisticated investors did to the public. So I don't have strong feelings on it, Joe, but it's a complete, utter grift.

Joe: (20:57)
Do you think there's going to be a criminal response in some cases?

Jason: (21:00)
Certainly.

Jason: (21:08)
I mean, these ‘it's just a little NFT I was flipping and grifting.’ You know, Department of Justine and the Southern District of New York and Florida's, you know, district attorneys — there's a large group of district attorneys who would like nothing more than to get the pelt of a crypto grifter and put it on their wall for when they run for mayor or governor.

Joe: (21:30)
And now people have lost a lot of money. So there's a lot of people, like a year ago, there wouldn't start wouldn't have been a political appetite for prosecutions because people like when the line goes up, but when the line goes down, I assume people want to see someone pay?

Jason: (21:45)
Well also, you know, that's when somebody who's in your local jurisdiction says, ‘Hey, my aunt took a second mortgage on her home and bought this cryptocurrency and they lost all their money. And three of her friends also did it.’ And so now there's an actual victim as you're pointing out Joe, because the tide's gone out. And those people essentially got a free option because — you know, [this is] the cynical view, but they got to buy the cryptocurrency. If it went up, they could sell it, like these retail investors. And now that it's gone down, since it was illegal, all of them can now go after these companies. And so that's just starting and we're like two pitches into the first inning. We are not even close to the second inning of this ... If what I learned from the dotcom era is any guide, it's going to be years of litigation and pain and suffering. Now do people go to jail? We just had somebody on the FBI's most wanted list who was the Bitcoin [Crypto] Queen. I don't remember a fotcom person being on the FBI's most wanted list. So that might be the canary in the coal mine, when the FBI's most wanted list winds up being three or four crypto people, I think you've got peak grift.

Tracy: (23:00)
Just on this topic you were invested in Robinhood and Robinhood is pretty highly leveraged to crypto, nowadays at least, did they make a mistake?

Jason: (23:09)
You know, I think it's fine for people — not speaking about Robinhood -- I think it's fine for people to participate in crypto if they're accredited investors and if they're educated. I sincerely believe people should be able to do what they want to do with their money. They're allowed to go to Vegas. They should be able to do that. So on the retail side, I do think people should be able to buy tokens or crypto. I just think it should all be regulated. And I think, you know, what Coinbase and Robinhood and all of these platforms really need to think about is, you know, when they put these tokens up, who should be buying them and what knowledge base do they need? And I think I'm a big fan of the freedom for you to do with with your money what you want. But I also think there's a responsibility of the people creating the tokens to do it.

And now what is the liability for platforms? I think that's somewhere in between. So, you know, the people who are creating these things, those are the people who are 99% responsible. And those early investors I'd say the platforms and other folks they're 1% responsible for this. People should be able to buy and sell whatever SPAC, they should be able to gamble. I'm a gambler. You guys know that. So I feel fine about that, but I also think that the silver lining of all this is people are very critical of this, you know, Gen Z, stonks, Robinhood generation, meme stocks, crypto. I actually think what we've done is we've made one of the most sophisticated generations financially that's ever been created, what these 20 somethings have learned in their first couple of years or decade of investing dwarfs what the generations before them knew.

I know young people who are trading puts and calls and shorting stocks and buying crypto and alternative assets. So I think all that's really good. And I think you learn by doing. So even if people did, you know, get burned a little bit by Gamestop, I am super permissive of young people and retail investors being able to do what they want with their money. And I do think they understand the risk they're taking. So even the people who bought crypto, I think they knew what they were doing. They wanted to make an absurd return in a short period of time. And if they got burned, that's on them. It's like going to Vegas and just putting all your money on like one hand of Blackjack. You knew what you were doing. You knew it was a stupid bet, but you have the freedom to do that and you should have the freedom to do it. That's my personal belief.

 

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Humble Beast

Humble Beast 258

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17 minutes ago, pronghorn said:

HEY! LET'S IGNORE ILLEGALITY and complete and regular fraud because other industry has bad actors 4

how many shtcoins have gone to zero? how many millions / billions? vanished with founders or OG investors getting out before others got fleeced.

I’m 100% against crypto scams. They contribute nothing to society. I’m not ignoring illegality. Just laughing at getting worked up about a couple people insider trading. 
 

These things deserve to be taken down. If you follow the Letter of the law they’re almost all unregistered securities. Coinbase should go down. That’s all they list. 

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Captainant

Captainant 28539

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Posted

Lol Rimbo arguing with GRU Vibes about Bitcoin. Don't you know that by: taking a record and distributing it across the globe, throwing away quadrillions of calculations per second to prove you're holding the genuine list, and removing all the consumer protections and legal remedies for abuse, you're actually doing something "useful"?? 

 

...

 

Also, be sure ignore that you have to trust the exchanges to be able to actually use your "trustless" currency lmao. Yeah yeah you shouldnt leave your crypto in an exchange - guess what - most people did anyways and have continually been deep dicked by cryptogrifters drafting in the wake of the original BTC whitepaper

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pronghorn

pronghorn 44

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Posted (edited)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-26/coinbase-faces-sec-investigation-over-cryptocurrency-listings

 

Coinbase Faces SEC Investigation Over Cryptocurrency Listings

  • Regulator probing whether firm offered unregistered securities
  • Company has asked watchdog to clarify digital-asset rules
Edited by pronghorn
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Humble Beast

Humble Beast 258

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Posted
11 hours ago, pronghorn said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-26/coinbase-faces-sec-investigation-over-cryptocurrency-listings

 

Coinbase Faces SEC Investigation Over Cryptocurrency Listings

  • Regulator probing whether firm offered unregistered securities
  • Company has asked watchdog to clarify digital-asset rules

Good. The space needs to be cleaned up. A lot can be done by just enforcing the laws on the books. Coinbase has gotten pretty flagrant about their business model. 
 

Cramer nails it as usual. What a dipshit. 
 

 

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Blotto

Blotto 24022

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https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/2/23289397/michael-saylor-bitcoin-microstrategy-ceo-steps-down

Quote

MicroStrategy CEO Michael Saylor steps down to ‘focus’ on Bitcoin as chairman. Current president Phong Le will take the role of CEO

Bitcoin advocate Michael Saylor is stepping down as the CEO of the software company he co-founded, MicroStrategy, and will instead take on the role of executive chairman. Saylor’s belief in Bitcoin has turned the company into a holding vehicle for the cryptocurrency. The news came as the company reported its second-quarter earnings. It noted a loss of $1.062 billion, mostly due to an impairment charge of $917 million based on the value of its Bitcoin holdings, which have plunged since the price peaked in November last year.

Phong Le, MicroStrategy’s current president, will take Saylor’s place as CEO. “I look forward to leading the organization for the long-term health and growth of our enterprise software and bitcoin acquisition strategies,” Le said in a statement to shareholders.

In 2020, MicroStrategy acquired $250 million in Bitcoin, and as of June 30th, 2022, MicroStrategy reports it currently holds $1.988 billion in Bitcoin.

Digital Assets: As of June 30, 2022, the carrying value of MicroStrategy’s digital assets (comprised of approximately 129,699 bitcoins) was $1.988 billion, which reflects cumulative impairment losses of $1.989 billion since acquisition and an average carrying amount per bitcoin of approximately $15,326. As of June 30, 2022, the original cost basis and market value of MicroStrategy’s bitcoin were $3.977 billion and $2.451 billion, respectively, which reflects an average cost per bitcoin of approximately $30,664 and a market price per bitcoin of $18,895.02, respectively.

MicroStrategy’s message to investors says Saylor will continue to “provide oversight of the Company’s bitcoin acquisition strategy as head of the Board’s Investments Committee.” It’s unclear what prompted the organizational shakeup, as Saylor has helmed MicroStrategy since he founded the company in 1989.

“I believe that splitting the roles of Chairman and CEO will enable us to better pursue our two corporate strategies of acquiring and holding bitcoin and growing our enterprise analytics software business,” Saylor says. “As Executive Chairman I will be able to focus more on our bitcoin acquisition strategy and related bitcoin advocacy initiatives, while Phong will be empowered as CEO to manage overall corporate operations.”

Good thinking separating the roles of CEO and bitcoin strategy. Its likely that Saylor previously only had enough time to focus on the acquisition strategy, neglecting the advocacy piece. That was clearly the problem here. With this new focus, Saylor should have BTC over $100K in no time. Clown.

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Humble Beast

Humble Beast 258

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Posted
2 minutes ago, bernorange said:

Coinbase stock up 35% on news of a partnership with Blackrock to offer crypto trading to Blackrock's institutional clients.

Closed up 10% but that is the big news of the day. Not sure what to make of it honestly. Blackrock is at the top of the regulatory capture game. They literally drive policy like ESG hoopla. Makes me think Coinbase is going to be fine from legal standpoint. 

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Captainant

Captainant 28539

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Posted
4 minutes ago, bernorange said:

Here's the press release from the US Treasury:

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy0916

@Captainant - thats $7B, not $7T.

Lmfao goddamnit. 

But nonetheless - the Lazarus Group does literally funnel funds to NK, it's likely they're military but 10000% state sponsored. And those tumbler services are literally and definitionally money laundering mechanisms. AND they're not bulletproof on security (because nobody is) so they're frequently plundered as a piggy bank by criminal or enemy state actors. 

To be crying about this action as some attack on privacy is pretty fucking transparent 

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