Wyoming forfeits Volleyball matchup with San Jose State

[Deej 76759]

2 hours ago, HenryJames said:

My DNA was in your mom last night.

[Dahobbs 17534]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I'd suspect that a conversation that begins with "we know something that is perfectly fair, and is perceived as such by all interested parties, is all but impossible.  So, we're going to come as close to it as we can.  And, we'll continue to follow progress and performance, to see if the solution requires amendment as we go forward."  Then, build something that is based on metrics tied to things that actually affect athletic performance.  Just "she was born a dude!" isn't a good metric...nor is it even a sufficient metric (because what is "born a dude?"  For example, the boxer who was the source of so much controversy was born with female genitalia, but had XY chromosomes.  Is it just chromosomes?  "Intersex" people present a real conundrum, so taking it out of "look and see if she has a dick" (which is an asshole approach anyway) is the only thing that would make sense).  I'm not a Dr., I'm no expert in phsyiology.  But I suspect that legit Drs who are experts could offer some objective metrics.

And like any rule, of course it won't be perfect.  Someone who identifies as a female will fail to pass muster on those metrics, and will not be allowed to play women's sports.  And someone who just barely passes those metrics, but appears to have numerous advantages that come from that fact (being close to the threshold levels of hormones, for example) will be able to compete as a woman, and people will bitch that she has an advantage.

And maybe, just fucking maybe, we should leave a little fucking room for grace and imperfection.

But nope.  We're just going to make a torrent of political ads about this to create division for personal gain and to feel like we've captured some sort of high ground to make us feel superior.   None of what I suggested will ever happen, for the same reason that we won't ever "solve" any other hot-button issue: there's too much invested in keeping it as a point of division and tribal identity.  We're fucking assholes, and that is the one thing we'll never, ever, ever give up.

 

11 minutes ago, B00M said:

I think the issue is that there simply isn’t a solution that’s simultaneously ‘fair’ to biological females and transitioned females. This has been discussed for several years now and I’ve yet to see any brilliant idea. One group or the other justifiably feels wronged. I have no idea what the answer is, but I don’t think it’s fair to have every record ever set by biological females inevitably beaten and buried by transitioned females. 

Frankly, since hormones drive the majority of physical differences that matter to sports, if you wanted to be more fair you'd have different classes based on hormone levels. I mean, fuck, look at Lebron James in high school. Was it really fair for other high schools kids to have play against him? What does fair even fucking mean in this context? Its a sport. Its a contest. Someone is going to be better than others. It is the very nature of the thing. We add more subclasses, whether it be JV and varsity teams, weight classes in wrestling, or men's an women's teams, to allow more people to participate. We can divide it up as many times as people want. But it'll never really be fair because it can't be. 

[Underdog 28612]

31 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I got a full ride to University of Niagara Falls where I could’ve been with my girlfriend. 

“Niagara Falls?! Slowly I turned ... step by step ... inch by inch...,"

[Rex Kramer 1335]

33 minutes ago, royiv said:

So we need to pass legislation based on one single athlete? What a waste of government resources.

No, where did I say that?  I think common sense ought to prevail with the UIL and NCAA

[MonkeyDoughnut 10232]

57 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

1st issue that is completely ignored is safety.  Example 1 Payton McNabb.

RALEIGH, N.C. (TND) — A high school volleyball player who suffered severe head and neck injuries resulting in long-term concussion symptoms after a girl she says is transgender spiked a ball in her face is now speaking out publicly for the first time.

"Due to the North Carolina High School Athletic Association policy allowing biological males to compete against biological females my life has forever been changed," Payton McNabb, now a senior at Hiwassee Dam High School in Murphy, North Carolina, said during a Thursday committee hearing of the North Carolina state legislature.

McNabb indicated that, to this day, she is still recovering from her injuries, and continues to face other health struggles as a result of what happened, such as impaired vision, partial paralysis on the right side of her body, constant headaches, anxiety and depression.

Injured volleyball player speaks out after alleged transgender opponent spiked ball at her (wlos.com)

 

2.  One of her own teammates has joined the lawsuit against her

SJSU Volleyball Player Joins Lawsuit Against NCAA’s Transgender Policies (thespearsjsu.com)

 

3.  There is not one Olympic or world record that a female holds over a male.  To deny or downplay physical differences between the sexes in nonsense. 

Florence Griffith-Joyner set the WR in 1988 with a 10.49 100m.  This is accomplished by thousands of high school boys every year.

The assumption for #1 here that this girl she says is transgender hit the ball harder than any female could or would?  Watching the video of the incident that's a really bold claim. That's doesn't look anything special for HS volleyball.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

Was enjoying the “could my high school team beat the Aces” discourse and I am disappointed we got away from that. 

[Captainant 27654]

45 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

I hear the senate race ads. It’s a political issue because Lia Thomas does happen, and it’s viewed as wokeness run amok. Leaving rule making to an utterly toothless organization like the NCAA is dangerous, and I am pretty certain in instances like Thomas (not a great number I would imagine), it’s not a vocal minority. It’s the majority, at the very least, and probably vast majority. 

Having said that, as I said, it’s not an issue I get wound up about. And absolutely there are bigger fish to fry. 

Yeah, like collecting all their personal info all up onto a list for Ken Paxton to keep tabs on

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/dps-director-asks-paxton-for-guidance-on-sex-marker-changes/ar-AA1r3DAG

Y'all better make em wear a special symbol so the public can ID them more easily, amirite?? Can't have them going into the WRONG BATHROOM(!!!!!!!)

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

1st issue that is completely ignored is safety.  Example 1 Payton McNabb.

RALEIGH, N.C. (TND) — A high school volleyball player who suffered severe head and neck injuries resulting in long-term concussion symptoms after a girl she says is transgender spiked a ball in her face is now speaking out publicly for the first time.

"Due to the North Carolina High School Athletic Association policy allowing biological males to compete against biological females my life has forever been changed," Payton McNabb, now a senior at Hiwassee Dam High School in Murphy, North Carolina, said during a Thursday committee hearing of the North Carolina state legislature.

McNabb indicated that, to this day, she is still recovering from her injuries, and continues to face other health struggles as a result of what happened, such as impaired vision, partial paralysis on the right side of her body, constant headaches, anxiety and depression.

Injured volleyball player speaks out after alleged transgender opponent spiked ball at her (wlos.com)

1) Her social media (which was not created until after she graduated high school) reads like a stereotypical right wing personality.  Not discrediting in and of itself, but certainly notable.

2) The only evidence of this is a 7 second clip where a tall player spikes the ball into Payton's face.  As far as I can find, the opposing player has never been named and this entire story is basically contained to right wing news publications and purely based on word of mouth from Payton.

3) Her injuries were so severe that she was playing basketball, and posting highlights to hudl, within two months: https://www.hudl.com/profile/18432580/Payton-McNabb/highlights

Again, there is a severe lack of curiosity with any of this.  It's just pure rage bait, through and through.

[52-80 19150]

15 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I have no idea what point you're making. You suggested hate wasn't the reason for the outrage, citing that poll. I pointed out that the poll in fact supports the conclusion that hate is a driving force behind the outrage. Do you disagree that people that want transgender bathroom laws (which btw, we don't have for anyone else) are doing so out of the same sort of discriminatory animus that led to segregated facilities based on race? 

More smear tactics, and whatever associative fallacy bringing race race to it. 

The strong difference in responses to difference questions shows there’s some kind of motivation behind the (anonymous) answers. If hate is your blanket answer for that motivation, why wouldnt they want discrimination in employment and housing as well? (Whats the cost of expressing a wrong opinion to an online poll?)

Is there any natural, obvious reason for people to have segregation in bathroom at all (where there is none in general employment)….or is wanting girls to stay with girls a form of discrimination, and wanting girls-identifying-as-boys to use the same room a form of elevated hate-filled discrimination?

[Mikey4 2476]

I have disappoint. When I saw this thread title, I was confident that surly could discuss this issue objectively in DT without cloaking it up. Lol.

[Bevo 13576]

7 minutes ago, Mikey4 said:

I have disappoint. When I saw this thread title, I was confident that surly could discuss this issue objectively in DT without cloaking it up. Lol.

 

 

[Brisketexan 105095]

9 minutes ago, Mikey4 said:

I have disappoint. When I saw this thread title, I was confident that surly could discuss this issue objectively in DT without cloaking it up. Lol.

Dude....the very first post, and the story itself, "cloaked it up."  FFS, this issue is THE central issue in the highest profile state political race going on right now.  Why in the blue fuck would you expect one of the hot-button political topics of the day NOT to turn into a...political discussion?  

[Bevo 13576]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Dude....the very first post, and the story itself, "cloaked it up."  FFS, this issue is THE central issue in the highest profile state political race going on right now.  Why in the blue fuck would you expect one of the hot-button political topics of the day NOT to turn into a...political discussion?  

 

I think you meant "Why in the red fuck..."

[Serak The Preparer 3431]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Dude....the very first post, and the story itself, "cloaked it up."  FFS, this issue is THE central issue in the highest profile state political race going on right now.  Why in the blue fuck would you expect one of the hot-button political topics of the day NOT to turn into a...political discussion?  

The same reason that some posters think that going full throat in support of Israel is not CR but suggesting there may be nuance is pure CR and should not be discussed in DT. It's not political if it enforces status quo, despite of course that the status quo is in place because of generations of political beliefs.

[Deej 76759]

1 hour ago, royiv said:

Tell me about it. I thought the benefit of being a dude at a Taylor Swift concert was going to be short lines for the men’s room. Instead I had to muscle past dozens of females (or were they?!?!?) so I could whip out my dong at a urinal.

So you'd rather whip out your dong in a bathroom full of nothing but dudes? Noted. 

[Beau Vine 54211]

1 hour ago, Blotto said:

Congratulations. On a thread full of shitty takes, yours outdistances everybody else's shitty take by 300%.

You must've missed Rex's comment that he's glad the state of Texas will protect his daughters. 

Edited October 2 by Beau Vine

[52-80 19150]

1 minute ago, Deej said:

So you'd rather whip out your dong in a bathroom full of nothing but dudes? Noted. 

You’re supposed to say “No Diddy” after that. 

[Beau Vine 54211]

56 minutes ago, Underdog said:

“Niagara Falls?! Slowly I turned ... step by step ... inch by inch...,"

Fuck, I didn't realize how old you are...

[Underdog 28612]

56 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Was enjoying the “could my high school team beat the Aces” discourse and I am disappointed we got away from that. 

How soon till we name 5 Surly posters who'd whip that Aces ass?

[Underdog 28612]

12 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Fuck, I didn't realize how old you are...

I may be old but I make up for it by behaving like a child. 

[B00M 6414]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

 

Frankly, since hormones drive the majority of physical differences that matter to sports, if you wanted to be more fair you'd have different classes based on hormone levels. 

Ignoring that testosterone level isn’t correlated with skill, wouldn’t leagues like the WNBA inevitably become dominated by relatively low-T men? Imagine the ratings the LTNBA would pull. I don’t see how mass, frequent, testosterone testing in order to divide humans into tiers of athletes is feasible, justifiable, or economically viable. We painfully evolved to today’s systems that works for 99% of participants. I suspect the correct way to include trans athletes is MUCH closer to what we’re currently doing than what you’re proposing, but only time will tell.

Edited October 2 by B00M

[Deej 76759]

12 minutes ago, Underdog said:

I may be old but I make up for it by behaving like a child. 

New Surly motto?

[troph 24783]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

 

Frankly, since hormones drive the majority of physical differences that matter to sports, if you wanted to be more fair you'd have different classes based on hormone levels. I mean, fuck, look at Lebron James in high school. Was it really fair for other high schools kids to have play against him? What does fair even fucking mean in this context? Its a sport. Its a contest. Someone is going to be better than others. It is the very nature of the thing. We add more subclasses, whether it be JV and varsity teams, weight classes in wrestling, or men's a women's teams, to allow more people to participate. We can divide it up as many times as people want. But it'll never really be fair because it can't be. 

Outside of elite athletics (which is the outlier) it actually works like this. Rec/club tennis is a perfect example. You are scored on your ability and performance and then classed based on that. It actually works damn well near perfectly except when women throw matches to stay a lower rank. 2.5/3.0/3.5/4.0/4.5/5.0/open division. There are no issues. 

[ChickenSandwich 9833]

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

 

2) The only evidence of this is a 7 second clip where a tall player spikes the ball into Payton's face.  As far as I can find, the opposing player has never been named and this entire story is basically contained to right wing news publications and purely based on word of mouth from Payton.

Not putting a minor on blast seems like the prudent thing for media outlets to do.  There were many witnesses to the game, and if this was a conspiracy, that would be a hundred people participating in the ruse.  Regardless of the rules, she had no intention for the incident and wouldn’t deserve to be doxxed for following the rules adults decided. 

Edited October 3 by ChickenSandwich

[Dahobbs 17534]

17 minutes ago, B00M said:

Ignoring that testosterone level isn’t correlated with skill, wouldn’t leagues like the WNBA inevitably become dominated by relatively low-T men? Imagine the ratings the LTNBA would pull. I don’t see how mass, frequent, testosterone testing in order to divide humans into tiers of athletes is feasible, justifiable, or economically viable. We painfully evolved to today’s systems that works for 99% of participants. I suspect the correct way to include trans athletes is MUCH closer to what we’re currently doing than what you’re proposing, but only time will tell.

Y'all just told me that it isnt possible to have highly skilled, but not necessarily physically strong, women can compete with men. I thought skill wasn't relevant. 

But sure, we can just do @troph's suggestion and divide people by overall skill level irrespective of gender or hormones. I'm all good with that too. 

Again, I think this search for fairness is misguided because by its very nature, sports are unfair. Lebron has an unfair physical advantage against 99.99999999% of the population. What we really care about for the most part is dividing it up so more people can participate.  That's it. 

[Dahobbs 17534]

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Not putting a minor on blast seems like the prudent thing for media outlets to do.  There were many witnesses to the game, and if this was a conspiracy, that would be a hundred people participating in the ruse.  Regardless of the rules, she had no intention for the incident and wouldn’t deserve to be doxxed for following the rules adults decided. 

I don't think anyone doubts the game happened. There is video of it. It's just that nothing about that video indicates that anything special happened. Injuries like that happen all the time. 

[Muny_Tex 293]

[troph 24783]

11 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Y'all just told me that it isnt possible to have highly skilled, but not necessarily physically strong, women can compete with men. I thought skill wasn't relevant. 

But sure, we can just do @troph's suggestion and divide people by overall skill level irrespective of gender or hormones. I'm all good with that too. 

Again, I think this search for fairness is misguided because by its very nature, sports are unfair. Lebron has an unfair physical advantage against 99.99999999% of the population. What we really care about for the most part is dividing it up so more people can participate.  That's it. 

I’m suggesting for rec sports for us non-elite athletes that it stays segregated and you have different classes based on skill and result. It makes policing bodies irrelevant. 
 

for youth sports pre-puberty until at least say 10-11 it also probably doesn’t matter and should be based on skill levels segregated by gender allowing trans kids to participate. 
 

middle school and non-varsity high school is probably fine but I can see some arguments for regulation HOWEVER if you let trans kids transition then it’s a non-issue. 

high school varsity, college and pro is where you get to the elite levels and we should have regulations for post-puberty transitioners. 
 

there is a path forward but it takes good faith on both sides and I just don’t believe that exists with enough people to make it work.

Edited October 3 by troph

[troph 24783]

12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I don't think anyone doubts the game happened. There is video of it. It's just that nothing about that video indicates that anything special happened. Injuries like that happen all the time. 

That’s the thing it’s always the trans. Win it’s the trans, lose well you just suck, injury it’s the trans, even when it’s not. 

[Sawbonz 27547]

13 minutes ago, troph said:

HOWEVER if you let trans kids transition then it’s a non-issue

But this is what scares them the most. These stupid fucks actually think the kids are being brainwashed. And the radical right politicians are preying on their fears. 

Edited October 3 by Sawbonz

[52-80 19150]

23 minutes ago, B00M said:

Ignoring that testosterone level isn’t correlated with skill, wouldn’t leagues like the WNBA inevitably become dominated by relatively low-T men? Imagine the ratings the LTNBA would pull. I don’t see how mass, frequent, testosterone testing in order to divide humans into tiers of athletes is feasible, justifiable, or economically viable. We painfully evolved to today’s systems that works for 99% of participants. I suspect the correct way to include trans athletes is MUCH closer to what we’re currently doing than what you’re proposing, but only time will tell.

His is a loony proposal. 

In professional cycling there already is a ton of biological testing.

The goal was to detect anomalous measures as evidence of cheating, so they set *arbitrary* round numbers as threshold such as 50%+ hematocrit. That threshold was controversial, debated, and I think even abandoned.

The problem is of course theres no single defensible limit, and theres different measures with different distributions that also affect performance.

If you take a bunch of peoples measurements — like VO2max — and sort them into classes, it is no longer sporting. You’re not setting up a bicycle race. Youre setting up a laboratory bench racing competition to see which 90ml/kg/min bodybag processes 92 for the day. 

In bike racing there have been multiple transgender females winning female competitions. There have been zero known cases of transgender males winning males competition. The (obvious) implication is that those who are born male, in aggregate, are superior athletes than those born female. (As if we didnt already know from the billion other empirical data points).

“Why do you care, it doesnt affect you?”. Based on the above, it definitely affects female competitors.

“Why do you want to exclude marginalized people from sports you big meanie”. In professional bike racing, the mens category is officially an open category. Any person identifying as any gender is eligible to participate.

“What about people who are truly biologically dimorphic or socially nonbinary/trans in completely earnest manner and genuinely arent trying to cheat”. Compete in the open category. If your condition represents 1% of the population you should not get to supercede 50% of the population. Nothing against you in any other respect.

[Bevo 13576]

I'd be fine if the only professional women sport was women's beach volleyball. Even a cougar league would be entertaining. 

[Dahobbs 17534]

4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

His is a loony proposal. 

In professional cycling there already is a ton of biological testing.

The goal was to detect anomalous measures as evidence of cheating, so they set *arbitrary* round numbers as threshold such as 50%+ hematocrit. That threshold was controversial, debated, and I think even abandoned.

The problem is of course theres no single defensible limit, and theres different measures with different distributions that also affect performance.

If you take a bunch of peoples measurements — like VO2max — and sort them into classes, it is no longer sporting. You’re not setting up a bicycle race. Youre setting up a laboratory bench racing competition to see which 90ml/kg/min bodybag processes 92 for the day. 

In bike racing there have been multiple transgender females winning female competitions. There have been zero known cases of transgender males winning males competition. The (obvious) implication is that those who are born male, in aggregate, are superior athletes than those born female. (As if we didnt already know from the billion other empirical data points).

“Why do you care, it doesnt affect you?”. Based on the above, it definitely affects female competitors.

“Why do you want to exclude marginalized people from sports you big meanie”. In professional bike racing, the mens category is officially an open category. Any person identifying as any gender is eligible to participate.

“What about people who are truly biologically dimorphic or socially nonbinary/trans in completely earnest manner and genuinely arent trying to cheat”. Compete in the open category. If your condition represents 1% of the population you should not get to supercede 50% of the population. Nothing against you in any other respect.

It wasn't a real proposal ya loon. 

[52-80 19150]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

It wasn't a real proposal ya loon. 

Its not any less loony as a hypothetical. 

And if youre not discussing in earnest, is there a point in your involvement (eg to defend a stance) other than to express contempt for how undignified you find this issue. 

[TwiceHorn 31450]

3 hours ago, Rex Kramer said:

I hear the senate race ads. It’s a political issue because Lia Thomas does happen, and it’s viewed as wokeness run amok. Leaving rule making to an utterly toothless organization like the NCAA is dangerous, and I am pretty certain in instances like Thomas (not a great number I would imagine), it’s not a vocal minority. It’s the majority, at the very least, and probably vast majority. 

Having said that, as I said, it’s not an issue I get wound up about. And absolutely there are bigger fish to fry. 

The NCAA is not toothless when it comes to this kind of rule.  The sport sanctioning bodies are the only ones that should be addressing this.  Just like all other issues of competition.

[Rex Kramer 1335]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

The NCAA is not toothless when it comes to this kind of rule.  The sport sanctioning bodies are the only ones that should be addressing this.  Just like all other issues of competition.

NCAA has been a bastion of idiocy long before the NIL era. They may not be toothless in this particular issue as it stands today, but if they don’t get it right, they’ll see how fleeting their power is. 

[Dahobbs 17534]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

Its not any less loony as a hypothetical. 

And if youre not discussing in earnest, is there a point in your involvement (eg to defend a stance) other than to express contempt for how undignified you find this issue. 

What is the issue in your mind? 

Again, if the question is "fairness" it is a false premise. Sports aren't fair. Some people will have huge physical advantages. I'm all for having additional leagues representing different skill levels. It is great when more people can participate and contribute. I think it is a legit good. But this concern for sanctity of women's athletics is very clearly false and being used for nothing more than prosecuting a culture war. And let me be clear, I have nothing but contempt for the people pursuing it. 

 

[TwiceHorn 31450]

3 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

NCAA has been a bastion of idiocy long before the NIL era. They may not be toothless in this particular issue as it stands today, but if they don’t get it right, they’ll see how fleeting their power is. 

The NCAA has about shit to do with NIL.  Ol boy Kavanagh doesn't apparently appreciate amateurism in athletics, so NCAA was told to butt out of that kind of regulation.

I grant that they have been largely toothless in enforcing pay to play rules and the like, largely because they face sophisticated and well-financed institutions intent upon covering up their misdeeds.

All they have to do here is set out a rule. Enforcing it will not be difficult and I doubt anyone attempts to circumvent it.

Edited October 3 by TwiceHorn

[Rex Kramer 1335]

1 hour ago, Beau Vine said:

You must've missed Rex's comment that he's glad the state of Texas will protect his daughters. 

Not what I said. I’ll repeat, I’m glad my family lives in Texas. I suspect people would be surprised on my opinion on the topic you and the 5 people who negged me so desperately want to discuss, but I’m not gonna go there. 

Yes, this was a provocative CR thread at the outset, but yall insist on making it more so. 

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

Not putting a minor on blast seems like the prudent thing for media outlets to do.  There were many witnesses to the game, and if this was a conspiracy, that would be a hundred people participating in the ruse.  Regardless of the rules, she had no intention for the incident and wouldn’t deserve to be doxxed for following the rules adults decided. 

Murphy is a town in western, ruby red NC with a population of 1600. It doesn’t strike you as odd that a girl on the high school volleyball team was knocked unconscious during a game by a transgender individual, suffered a brain bleed and partial paralysis… and nobody talked about it? There was no local news coverage? No angry viral Facebook posts about this transgender menace running amok in small town high school volleyball games? And why does the video stop right after the hit? Is there no footage of her lying unconscious on the ground? No footage of her body contorting into a “fencing position” (her words)? Surely that would be compelling footage for anyone supporting the cause.

I’m not saying she’s a liar. I’m saying there’s absolutely no desire to look into this stuff because it scratches that “feels true” itch that so many seem to desire with this issue.

I understand the safety concerns. Logically they make sense. But shouldn’t it say something that your only cited example of danger is a lightly sourced, 7 second video of a spike that resembles something you would likely see if you walked into any high school gym in Houston this weekend?

[Bevo 13576]

2 hours ago, Mikey4 said:

I have disappoint. When I saw this thread title, I was confident that surly could discuss this issue objectively in DT without cloaking it up. Lol.

 

if the Bloods & Crips can get along, I don't see why conservatives and liberals can't

[troph 24783]

I don’t know what the NCAA rule is specifically but it’s 12 months hormones only I’m pretty sure. That’s idiocy. Again, I’m 10 years in, and I can tell you at the 2 year mark I was fine out and about but I was still changing. EVERY body is different but I could see blood tests for hormone levels monthly for 24 months easily. I think when you get into “did it work” tests it’s gets really subjective but I know trans women who could not take to estrogen orally (their words) but injections worked like a charm. the particular woman I’m talking about didn’t figure it out for a near decade now she’s fine. I don’t know if surgery should be required but I could see at least 18-24 months with no biological testosterone factories - noting that you can get to normal female ranges of estrogen and testosterone without an orchiectomy or other surgeries. If we simply added these to the rules, the very few that are outliers will be cut by a noticeable amount. Leaving it even rarer than it is now that a Lia Thomas does what she did. And make no mistake she followed NCAA rules and fucking swam for the men and a year later swam for the women with almost no real transition. That was lunacy. 

I can also get behind blood tests for oxygen capacity and muscle mass but when you go there you end up policing all women and their bodies which is already too much. But in theory I’m ok with simple objective threshold participation tests that get to the heart of “did transition work” for this athlete. If it did go compete if it didn’t, I’m sorry. Life isn’t fair.  And I know saying that is not popular with my community but hey I’ve always thought myself to be fair and to have sound judgment and there are two sides here that have legitimacy and matter.

conversely the idea that a trans woman is a man or is de facto at an advantage athletically is just inaccurate. Case by case basis and for those who navigate and are fortunate enough to have a “successful” transition on these matters, they are just not the boogeyman people make us out to be.

Edited October 3 by troph

[52-80 19150]

7 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

 

Again, if the question is "fairness" it is a false premise. Sports aren't fair. Some people will have huge physical advantages. I'm all for having additional leagues representing different skill levels. It is great when more people can participate and contribute.

Sports is segregated for fairness to the extent that is reasonable. There is no binary division in the human population more obvious than something split ~50/50*, with observable anatomical differences, with biological functional differences, so natural that it establishes societal/behavioral differences. 

And empirically along that division for every athletic outcome ever recorded in time there is the same ranked order in performance. 

That is why males/female sports segregation exist. And within it, we let the competitors self-sort for who has more physical advantages. 

That’s the first-order segregation that should not be controversial. If your fundamental premise is well different individuals are physically advantaged over others anyway….be clear: are you suggesting to eliminate gender in sports altogether? 

If so, theres no point to continue to the real point: addressing how to fairly and respectfully treating the 1%*

[Willfully Horn 8008]

3 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

No. I'm not. I've already said that opinions on it varied. But I've also pointed out that vocal element pushing the issue now aren't doing it out of concern for fairness in women's sports

Whatever the motivation, surveys of US citizens on this subject reflect a growing number of folks who support banning trans athletes in women’s sports.

In 2021, 28% favored a ban.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/new-poll-shows-americans-overwhelmingly-oppose-anti-transgender-laws

In 2022, 58% favored a ban.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/507023/say-birth-gender-dictate-sports-participation.aspx

Last year, 69% favored a ban.

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/

 

 

[ChickenSandwich 9833]

22 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Murphy is a town in western, ruby red NC with a population of 1600. It doesn’t strike you as odd that a girl on the high school volleyball team was knocked unconscious during a game by a transgender individual, suffered a brain bleed and partial paralysis… and nobody talked about it? There was no local news coverage? No angry viral Facebook posts about this transgender menace running amok in small town high school volleyball games? And why does the video stop right after the hit? Is there no footage of her lying unconscious on the ground? No footage of her body contorting into a “fencing position” (her words)? Surely that would be compelling footage for anyone supporting the cause.

I’m not saying she’s a liar. I’m saying there’s absolutely no desire to look into this stuff because it scratches that “feels true” itch that so many seem to desire with this issue.

I understand the safety concerns. Logically they make sense. But shouldn’t it say something that your only cited example of danger is a lightly sourced, 7 second video of a spike that resembles something you would likely see if you walked into any high school gym in Houston this weekend?

CBS Austin ran the same story. There is nothing out there contradicting the account of the incident. 
 

https://cbsaustin.com/amp/news/nation-world/volleyball-player-injured-after-transgender-opponent-spiked-ball-at-her-speaks-out

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

CBS Austin ran the same story. There is nothing out there contradicting the account of the incident. 
 
https://cbsaustin.com/amp/news/nation-world/volleyball-player-injured-after-transgender-opponent-spiked-ball-at-her-speaks-out

They ran the same story everyone else did: a retroactive account strictly from Payton’s point of view. Maybe I’m jaded, but I, personally, find it hard to believe that in the year 2022, a transgender high school student could go around partially paralyzing blonde high school athletes in a county that Trump won by 40 points and there be absolutely zero public discussion for over 7 months.

Edited to add: my response is veering towards attacking the victim, which is not my intent at all. I’m merely attempting to point out how there’s a lot about this story that seems like it warrants further investigation, yet instead it is being used as yet another irrefutable data point to inflame the culture war.

[Jameslaw121 4448]

Why don't all the teams playing Wyoming say they have a trans person on their team. Pick up the easy win and move on.....

 

Edited October 3 by Jameslaw121

[B00M 6414]

14 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Murphy is a town in western, ruby red NC with a population of 1600. It doesn’t strike you as odd that a girl on the high school volleyball team was knocked unconscious during a game by a transgender individual, suffered a brain bleed and partial paralysis… and nobody talked about it? There was no local news coverage? No angry viral Facebook posts about this transgender menace running amok in small town high school volleyball games? And why does the video stop right after the hit? Is there no footage of her lying unconscious on the ground? No footage of her body contorting into a “fencing position” (her words)? Surely that would be compelling footage for anyone supporting the cause.
 

I don’t know shit about that particular case, but I know that a spiked volleyball can cause whiplash and brain injury without any obvious immediate symptoms. The brain interprets sensor data (think eyes, ears) and can essentially forget how to do it due to even mild injury. You then get stuck in a negative feedback/migraine loop that only prescription medication and gradual eye/vestibular PT can break and cure, respectively. My wife spent 6 months suffering ignorant (but specialized) doctors before we found a young neurologist who just happened to know a PT that specialized in this… all due to a spiked (then deflected) volleyball. Women are more susceptible to this sort of brain injury than men. 

[royiv 9286]

2 hours ago, Deej said:

So you'd rather whip out your dong in a bathroom full of nothing but dudes? Noted. 

You’ve never pissed in the trough?

[Bevo 13576]

2 minutes ago, Jameslaw121 said:

Why don't all the teams playing Wyoming say they have a trans person on their team. Pick up the easy win and move on.....

 

Why doesn't Title IX apply to transgender athletes?