Wyoming forfeits Volleyball matchup with San Jose State

[Willfully Horn 8042]

59 minutes ago, Degenerate Gardner said:

You see, the right is extremely concerned about maintaining fairness in contests.

As this is now a CR thread: the party of criminals and freaks has whipped this into a wedge issue. Three years ago, less than 30% of the country was concerned about this issue. That number has more than doubled since.

Edited October 3 by Willfully Horn

[Nivek 16953]

19 hours ago, Rex Kramer said:

I don’t really, because such a situation will never affect my athlete daughters, but to suggest it’s not newsworthy is definitely a take. Having a poster, without any comment, neg my opinion that 90%+ of the country agrees with, is indicative of a Cunts Run Amok board. 

Glad you agree we should ditch the electoral college so only the winner of the popular vote gets to decide the elections.   And I expect you should also join in setting limitations on firearms since the majority support that as well, I am sure you already called your congressmen and other representatives in order to convey this point.  

[troph 24901]

25 minutes ago, immamac said:

I hope you take my posts the right way. I'm saying this particular thread topic is irrelevant to most everyone. I'm pretty sure we have a thread for discussing the topic of transgender athletes and participation somewhere and it's not this thread. I'm not saying that the opinions or discussion is unwarranted or unwelcomed I'm saying this particular thread about a forfeit volleyball game doesn't make a fuck. 

This may surprise you but I agree the forfeiture doesn’t fucking matter and no one including me would even know about it but for a known confirmed hater posting click bait here.

but make no mistake about it, the media campaign and the political strategy end game is full eradication of my people from polite society. They started with bathroom, moved to healthcare for kids, and athletic bans, but they want it all. And I’m not going to stand for that as we actively are looking for places in another state to spend at least half the year to protect my existence from the political end game here in Texas.

I need you to know that no one is more tired of these discussions than me.  I’ve spent the better part of my time on this board since 2015 advocating for my people, because I’m an advocate it’s just what I am. And in doing so I know I have gained the attention, respect, understanding and even agreement of many posters here. So I simply cannot let the haters occupy this space without speaking up. 

[RomaVicta 29959]

43 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You do know all of this is happening in the context of a concerted effort (by the very fine people that you voted for) to make trans people untermensch? There are a bunch of hateful fascists pushing across their local governments and private orgs to redefine trans people as dangerous sexual deviants that are coming for your children. 

Just watch a fucking football game, your man cruz has one of those ads every goddamn quarter. 

This shit isn't happening in a vacuum 

The one should be put in the other. 

[Chuckie Finster 22713]

As this is now a CR thread: the party of criminals and freaks has whipped this into a wedge issue. Three years ago, less than 30% of the country were concerned about this issue. That number has more than doubled since.

Their daughters are exponentially more likely to be gunned down by a boy in their school than have to face one in a sporting event, yet you clearly see where their priorities lie.

[Redneck Mutha 8007]

I was watching the television the other day and I seen some guy named Allred playing flag football. He tackled this poor girl and kilt her right there on the field! No flag or anything! If it's on TV, you KNOW it's real!

[Rex Kramer 1345]

9 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Fewer health care resources, bounties on their head < women sports.    Great priorities man.  

As I’ve said countless times, the comment was limited to the topic at hand and the topic many were piling on about that was never intended to be discussed - my opinion would likely surprise. 

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

Glad you agree we should ditch the electoral college so only the winner of the popular vote gets to decide the elections.   And I expect you should also join in setting limitations on firearms since the majority support that as well, I am sure you already called your congressmen and other representatives in order to convey this point.  

No on electoral college. Absolutely I do support significant limitations. 

[troph 24901]

4 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

 

I feel like it's become a litmus test issue for which tribe we belong in, whether we want it to or not. 

I feel like I'm inherently accused of being transphobic if I don't believe transgender women should be competing in women's sports. I guess if that's part of the definition, then I am. 

I like your point about men being the open competition. If a woman is able to compete equally with men then by all means, she should be able to do so. I don't think the problem is as much about whether she's permitted to. It's about she's not able to compete athletically with the men, so there's a separate category created for women so there can be a more competitive footing among their peers.

In theory the idea of a more nuanced categorization that isn't completely binary can have some appeal, but in practice it becomes too subjective and people get into arguments about what subjective measurement is the ideal. It's simpler to say if you're born a woman you can compete against other women. If you're not, then you're not. Absolutely there are plenty of transgender women who will not dominate their biological counterparts in athletic endeavors, but all it takes is one, unfortunately, for the whole thing to feel unfair for people who were women at birth. 

To me it feels unfair for transgender women not to be able to participate in sports when that's such an important part of our existence. But it's also unfair in my opinion for women to compete against transgender women, when the whole purpose of having women's sports in the first place was to give them an exclusivity because of the acknowledgement that it would not be a fair competition to introduce men into the equation. It's my belief if you break the seal and say it's okay for transgender women to compete under certain circumstances it can be difficult to actually argue that arbitrary line, whereas if you make the line whether someone is born as a woman or not, the line seems as clear cut as it's going to get. 

Just so you know, competing with men is untenable, not because of the differences but because of safety. I don’t know a single trans woman who can fade into the background that wants to actively put themselves out there as trans in competition with men. Even putting aside the ramifications of winning, the amount of discrimination we would face would effectively give those who want eradication exactly what they want. It is also a summarily dismissive argument to simply say nuance can’t work here. It absolutely can, but most organizations are afraid of both sides and combined with a lack of will and good faith from the vast majority of the public, they cannot  actually employ logic and rationality to come up with a workable solution. 

[Captainant 27720]

1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

As I’ve said countless times, the comment was limited to the topic at hand and the topic many were piling on about that was never intended to be discussed - my opinion would likely surprise. 

I'm less surprised that you still haven't shared your """opinion""" rex lol. It's a very trumpian approach you're taking. What, do you have concepts on an opinion?

[troph 24901]

2 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

As I’ve said countless times, the comment was limited to the topic at hand and the topic many were piling on about that was never intended to be discussed - my opinion would likely surprise. 

 

You keep saying this but your only clear response on the record is you’re happy you live in a state like 20+ others that ban trans athletes from competing in the gender they are aligned with no matter the circumstances.
 

So do tell and surprise us. 

[royiv 9333]

30 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

 My daughter is a 4X Jr Olympian T&F athlete and runs for a competitive 5A Texas high school. My son has been going to USA Swimming ladder meets all over the state since he was 8 and swims for the same high school. I've never seen a trans athlete in 10 years of track and swim meets, but I have had numerous people who have never been to a meet telling me what a huge problem it is. 

I don’t believe you. The highly respected Senator Cruz has based his entire campaign on this issue. Surely such a serious politician wouldn’t spend millions running ads educating his constituents about this issue if it wasn’t an existential threat to our American way of life, right?

[RomaVicta 29959]

29 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

I've never seen a trans athlete in 10 years of track and swim meets,

Look over your shoulder, man! They're sneaky. 

Then run for your life before the grooming begins!

[Rex Kramer 1345]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

You keep saying this but your only clear response on the record is you’re happy you live in a state like 20+ others that ban trans athletes from competing in the gender they are aligned with no matter the circumstances.
 

So do tell and surprise us. 

Correct. Do you not see Dahobbs and Beau Vine and Nivek and many others immediately take my comment and turn it into an abortion rant?

[Js1 85470]

11 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Their daughters are exponentially more likely to be gunned down by a boy in their school than have to face one in a sporting event, yet you clearly see where their priorities lie.

If your daughter is a potential D1 athlete in volleyball or basketball, there’s almost a 100% chance she’s going to face a squad of men in practice every day. 

[Sawbonz 27580]

38 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

that i agree on.  its up to each organization to decide whats appropriate for their sport, subject to the pressure of their participants and customers. likewise govt shouldnt be involved in the opposite direction.

what i dont agree with -- and people tend to gloss over this part directly to their own moral conclusion -- is if people feign as if gender is irrelevant in sports..

In team sports it is absolutely irrelevant. As mentioned above, this girl isn’t even a statistical leader on her own team, much less a threat to take a post season individual award from another player. How many D1 scholarships are given a year in women’s Volleyball? @Thatguy has been through this process any said there are 5 trans girls in the mix for those spots. He could probably confirm but I would bet nepotism, favoritism, and outright bribery are taking more scholarships from the last in line talent than these kids are.

I asked if anyone knew SJSU ranking because after going down the RPI well past 100 (including past Wyoming lol) and couldn’t find them. She’s listed as 6’1 so she’s probably 5’11.5 or so. She’s not sending 150 mph bombs down from a foot over the net into defenseless delicate craniums. It’s total bullshit posturing by those with an agenda,  amplified by people with hate in their hearts. 
 

Athletes in individual sports like tennis, track and field, and swimming are a different problem IMO, but given what we know about trans kids and how/when to begin treatment, the problem at this point is manufactured by the fuckheads who prevent medications to delay onset of puberty.

A fair to middling biologic male athlete who is completely through puberty before transitioning will have an innate advantage that years of HRT and test blockers will only blunt. They will have bone density advantage that will last the rest of their lives. They will have increased muscle mass, thicker and stronger tendons and ligaments, and a more efficient Hip/knee/ankle angle that will persist for years if not decades. So you will have some state level and maybe even a few national level meets/matches won by such athletes

A truly elite biologic male athlete who transitioned post puberty would wreck shop for decades. For instance Caitlin Jenner, had she transitioned at 35, would probably shatter the women’s decathlon record at 40 and be world/olympic champion for another decade.  But that’s like a unicorn. Has never happened and never will
 

To my knowledge, outside of a few weight lifters, Lia Thomas is the only trans athlete competing at a world class female level. Is one outlier across all women’s sports a reason to deny girls and young women the opportunity to enjoy a normal part of growing up that statistically decreases rates of depression and suicide (a huge problem in this population, even in girls with strong family and social group support), increases self esteem and academic performance, and can help them get higher education paid for? IMHO it is not

 

[Brisketexan 105192]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

I am finding it difficult to just watch a political world where logic, facts, and good faith carry so little weight. In fact, they're scorned by one side. 

 

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

You do know all of this is happening in the context of a concerted effort (by the very fine people that you voted for) to make trans people untermensch? There are a bunch of hateful fascists pushing across their local governments and private orgs to redefine trans people as dangerous sexual deviants that are coming for your children. 

 

24 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

As this is now a CR thread: the party of criminals and freaks has whipped this into a wedge issue. Three years ago, less than 30% of the country were concerned about this issue. That number has more than doubled since.

Bingo.  A few years back, nobody gave a shit.  Now, it's not just an issue, it is THE CENTRAL ISSUE IN NUMEROUS POLITICAL RACES WITH NATIONAL IMPLICATIONS.  Why?  Because one faction decided to MAKE it an issue.

And the language used goes FAR beyond "fairness in sports."  Groomers.  Pedophiles.  Predators.  Demonic.  The conversation and strategy is classic "create a 'threat' coming from some 'other/out' group" -- the "untermensch" approach.  A time-honored approach of hate.  The purpose here is to gin up trans people as a "threat to everything decent and to our very way of life," and then grab power on a platform of "and you need ME to protect you from this EVIL."

And you -- all of you who react to this as if it fucking matters -- took the fucking bait.  You swallowed it deep.

Those of us in the OTHER "out groups" who have been targets of this type of effort have always seen it for what it is.  Mexicans are over here nodding our heads....but you know, maybe SOME of us are "good people."  The bulk of us are murderers and rapists, though.  You need to give someone power who will protect you from the evil that is us brown folks.  And now, you ALSO need to give someone power to protect you from the evil that is.....Haitian refugees eating people's pets.  Spot a pattern here?  You know you do.  You know you've been taken, and been played.  But to admit it....well, you can never do that.  So, double down.  That's the new American Way.

Edited October 3 by Brisketexan

[Kel Varnsen 8540]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

broad participation

A little sexist don't you think?

[Tuco 5077]

41 minutes ago, hornbri said:

Meanwhile - another school forfeited playing them (so now, Wyoming, Southern Utah, Boise State and Utah State). 

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/college/article/fourth-school-joins-wave-women-s-volleyball-19812157.php

132 years ago, Nebraska beat Missouri 1-0.  Missouri forfeited because Nebraska had a black player, George Flippin.  I am pretty proud of that victory.  (I had as much to do with it as I have with any victory since.) 

[52-80 19214]

35 minutes ago, troph said:

I think the fact that I am both the closest to this issue for one side of the debate and I have also outlined in three posts reasonable positions on this and I’ve received almost zero engagement from the no males in female sports crowd is pretty fucking telling. People like this as a wedge issue, they like having an existential threat to latch on to, they like having a crusade against others. It’s the human way. Like I said, not enough good faith here to find a reasonable solution. It makes me sad. Makes me want to take a break from humanity and this place, again. 

I asked you directly, here , what is your proposal for fairness. No response, from you or anyone else (I asked again to Dahobbbs).

The complaint about zero engagement fails if you yourself disengaged from the conversation. How you interpret peoples intention is your prerogative but with 10,000 posts ive never typed a single bad word against you (despite butting plenty of heads here).  If you assume I'm acting in bad faith then we're just wasting eachothers bandwidth here.

 

33 minutes ago, troph said:

Your starting position is that gender is fixed and immutable. It’s not. There are extreme outliers that took advantage of rules created out of fear and lack of forethought. Those rules need to be changed, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a real workable solution that alleviates concerns for all.

Nope. I explicitly referenced dimorphism upthread, and also "earnest" discretionary/social transition--how you choose to live and present is your choice and no business of mine. 

Where it comes into sports its just a matter of pragmatism for the rule to be based on birth. Its not pragmatic to.. what.. demand a lifelong biological passport? Authenticated medical history?

You said your measured profile matches squarely with females. Your last post to me said most men can't handle a Serena Wiliams serve. I don't see how either of those serve to invalidate the rule. If my RHR and VO2max is only equal to females my age, is it appropriate for me to enroll in female competition? If I cant handle a Serena Williams serve -- and i absolutely cannot -- is that license to abolish gendered segregation?

As said above, I'm still waiting to see a real workable solution proposed.

 

25 minutes ago, &#x27;stache said:

Nobody has said that, you’re the one glossing over shit to continue your disingenuous narrative. Troph and others have made clear that it deserves some attention and nuance when it comes to competitiveness, she’s said it multiple times. You choose to ignore it and it’s why people are rightfully inferring that you’re just one of millions of people who are using this as a pretext to simply undermine the very existence of transgendered persons.

The very example of ostracizing, scolding behavior as a deflection. Explain to me like it's Monday: what is my disingenuous narrative and my incentive for undermining the existence of people?

[bolverk 29705]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Bingo.  A few years back, nobody gave a shit.  Now, it's not just an issue, it is THE CENTRAL ISSUE IN NUMEROUS POLITICAL RACES WITH NATIONAL IMPLICATIONS.  Why?  Because one faction decided to MAKE it an issue.

And the language used goes FAR beyond "fairness in sports."  Groomers.  Pedophiles.  Predators.  Demonic.  The conversation and strategy is classic "create a 'threat' coming from some 'other/out' group" -- the "untermensch" approach.  A time-honored approach of hate.  The purpose here is to gin up trans people as a "threat to everything decent and to our very way of life," and then grab power on a platform of "and you need ME to protect you from this EVIL."

And you -- all of you who react to this as if it fucking matters -- took the fucking bait.  You swallowed it deep.

Those of us in the OTHER "out groups" who have been targets of this type of effort have always seen it for what it is.  Mexicans are over here nodding our heads....but you know, maybe SOME of us are "good people."  The bulk of us are murderers and rapists, though.  You need to give someone power who will protect you from the evil that is us brown folks.  And now, you ALSO need to give someone power to protect you from the evil that is.....Haitian refugees eating people's pets.  Spot a pattern here?  You know you do.  You know you've been taken, and been played.  But to admit it....well, you can never do that.  So, double down.  That's the new American Way.

The Texas Constitution still says I, an atheist, can never hold public office in this state. One way or another, any of us can easily become a member of some out-group, which is why we should all fight for everyone else's rights.

[Brisketexan 105192]

Just now, bolverk said:

The Texas Constitution still says I, an atheist, can never hold public office in this state. One way or another, any of us can easily become a member of some out-group, which is why we should all fight for everyone else's rights.

The funny thing is that the "leopards eating people's faces" bit is a universal truth.  The rule is this: Any movement based on attacking members of out-groups needs a constant and steady supply of out-groups to attack.  They will move from one group to the next, and then the next, and then the next....until they have to start deeming members of the in-group to be an out-group because they aren't sufficiently loyal to the core of the in-group.  That is ALWAYS how these movements end -- purging core members/believers who the folks at the top now deem insufficiently loyal/fanatical.

They are coming for you -- all of you -- because that's what they do.  These movements are like a plague of locusts -- they destroy, consume their target, then move on to the next one.  Believing that you are safe is stupidity of the highest order.

[Bullneck 19195]

20 hours ago, Foosters said:

Imagine raising daughters and thinking that Texas protects them. LMAO 

SIAP

This guy will protect you.

 

[wildcat09 29362]

1 hour ago, hornbri said:

Meanwhile - another school forfeited playing them (so now, Wyoming, Southern Utah, Boise State and Utah State). 

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/college/article/fourth-school-joins-wave-women-s-volleyball-19812157.php

I don't want to be politically incorrect, but maybe the Mormons could try not being so fucking weird.

[The Original Greaser Bob 2844]

1)  Rex, Fuck Texas.

2) Pics or GTFO (would)

3) This should be a sport by sport, individual by individual decision and goddammit it shouldn't be publicized and politicized.  There is decent science on whether there is a big advantage 

['stache 21827]

10 minutes ago, The Original Greaser Bob said:

1)  Rex, Fuck Texas.

2) Pics or GTFO (would)

3) This should be a sport by sport, individual by individual decision and goddammit it shouldn't be publicized and politicized.  There is decent science on whether there is a big advantage 

That's pretty much where it currently stands. Most policies involve interviews and some level of medical documentation that the individual has genuinely transitioned. Some policies still require testosterone and other testing but I think the trend is going away from that because it isn't really making a difference and hasn't justified the intrusiveness. If a transgendered woman were to start utterly dominating, especially in an individual sport, my guess is that these committees would meet and discuss but it just hasn't become an issue. As most on here have said, this affects less than 1% of competitive athletes nationwide, and within that group, there has been maybe a handful of examples of a transgender woman winning competitions, none of which were utter domination. Or as 52-80 would say "nO SoLuTiOnS HaVe bEeN CoNsIdErEd oR DiScUsSeD AnD I Am cOnCeRn."

Edited October 3 by 'stache

[52-80 19214]

15 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

To my knowledge, outside of a few weight lifters, Lia Thomas is the only trans athlete competing at a world class female level. Is one outlier across all women’s sports a reason to deny girls and young women the opportunity to enjoy a normal part of growing up that statistically decreases rates of depression and suicide (a huge problem in this population, even in girls with strong family and social group support), increases self esteem and academic performance, and can help them get higher education paid for? IMHO it is not

This is an emotionally-loaded non-sequitur. How does one thing connect to girls from being denied access to sports? There is neither a ban on girls (cis or trans) from playing sports, nor is there much care about how they're mixed at that age. I'm not accusing you of doing it, but this guilt trip thing is a common occurrence with this topic.

At the elite level, a trans female is free to compete in the group coincident with their birth gender.

*Is the argument that it is unfair to them athletically e.g. they cant win? We're told (gender-agnostic) physical differences is already the status quo anyway, so is it any more unfair for a transitioned female to be uncompetitive vs an elite male than it is for any cis male to be uncompetitive against a D1 athlete?

*Is the argument that it is unfair to them morally/socially, i.e. they genuine do not identify in any way as male and dont want to be associated with that group? Believe it or not, I sympathize with this one. One, the organization and the other competitors have the right to determine. Two, what then is the criteria with which you determine genuine? Surgery? Hormones? Peer recognition? Because none of those seem as pragmatic as the default rule, and noone has proposed anything better.

 

[Huckleberry 33057]

5 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

At the elite level, a trans female is free to compete in the group coincident with their birth gender.

So if at birth I declare my male child's gender as "girl" then that child plays girls' sports forever?

Gender does not equal sex. If you're going to try to use correct terminology then try to get the most basic one correct. 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2844]

6 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

At the elite level, a trans female is free to compete in the group coincident with their birth gender.

So?

[G650 14273]

5 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

when the whole purpose of having women's sports in the first place was to give them an exclusivity because of the acknowledgement that it would not be a fair competition to introduce men into the equation.

It's been a long road, but I've pretty sincerely come to believe this was a mistake in the first place. It's easy to see why it was considered the right move at the time, but in hindsight, I think skill tiers would have been better. You would basically compete at the highest level that you could.

[aggie08 21513]

17 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

As this is now a CR thread: the party of criminals and freaks has whipped this into a wedge issue. Three years ago, less than 30% of the country were concerned about this issue. That number has more than doubled since.

This is the crux of the entire thing. The only reason we're talking about this is that a subset of politicians figured out they could use this to their advantage by convincing everyone that this is widespread and only going to get worse as liberals try to turn more of their kids trans, gay, and non-binary. And they're trying to "solve" it by bringing the weight of the government down on an already maligned and ostracized community. Super cool of them.

I'm sure there are people arguing in principle and good faith that respectful changes need to be made in the name of fairness; however, the powerful voices on their "side" only care about keeping the outrage train going and seeking solutions for the people who compulsively start nodding whenever someone says, "there are only two genders!" 

[G650 14273]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

emotionally-loaded

No shit. That's the entire point of sports.

[Sawbonz 27580]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

This is an emotionally-loaded non-sequitur

You’re going to have to walk me through how my post is a non sequitur. Everything I posted directly addresses your post

 

 

[G650 14273]

1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

She plays on a travel team all over the country. My daughters are very long and fast and springy. Appreciate your presumptions. You should type longer posts. 

How many trans athletes has she played against?

[52-80 19214]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

You’re going to have to walk me through how my post is a non sequitur. Everything I posted directly addresses your post

 

I don't see how anything you wrote, or anybody wrote, suggests in anyway that results in young girls being denied to playing sports....and all the other baggage accompanying that.

Did anyone propose banning young trans people from playing in any sports altogether? Or creating a 3rd dalit class to which theyre relegated? Explain it to me like I'm Brent Venables.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33881]

we need to just hurry up and embrace the sci-fi world and have all sports be co-ed. if you can make the grade, it doesn't matter what is between your legs. 

[hookemATL 11808]

1 hour ago, troph said:

So I simply cannot let the haters occupy this space without speaking up. 

Fuck yes, troph.  🤘

[Dahobbs 17631]

5 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

 

I feel like it's become a litmus test issue for which tribe we belong in, whether we want it to or not. 

I feel like I'm inherently accused of being transphobic if I don't believe transgender women should be competing in women's sports. I guess if that's part of the definition, then I am. 

I like your point about men being the open competition. If a woman is able to compete equally with men then by all means, she should be able to do so. I don't think the problem is as much about whether she's permitted to. It's about she's not able to compete athletically with the men, so there's a separate category created for women so there can be a more competitive footing among their peers.

In theory the idea of a more nuanced categorization that isn't completely binary can have some appeal, but in practice it becomes too subjective and people get into arguments about what subjective measurement is the ideal. It's simpler to say if you're born a woman you can compete against other women. If you're not, then you're not. Absolutely there are plenty of transgender women who will not dominate their biological counterparts in athletic endeavors, but all it takes is one, unfortunately, for the whole thing to feel unfair for people who were women at birth. 

To me it feels unfair for transgender women not to be able to participate in sports when that's such an important part of our existence. But it's also unfair in my opinion for women to compete against transgender women, when the whole purpose of having women's sports in the first place was to give them an exclusivity because of the acknowledgement that it would not be a fair competition to introduce men into the equation. It's my belief if you break the seal and say it's okay for transgender women to compete under certain circumstances it can be difficult to actually argue that arbitrary line, whereas if you make the line whether someone is born as a woman or not, the line seems as clear cut as it's going to get. 

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with having this feeling or opinion. We have arguments about all kinds of rules in sports, and this would just be one more. And it would be one more that, statistically, affects almost nobody. So, the reason folks who are adamant about this issue are called bigoted is not because they express an opinion like the above, it is because it very clearly is a pretext to punish a class of people they hate. I haven't seen you arguing for government mandates and calling out the transgendered as pedophiles and child molesters. If you're not trying to wage a political war on this simple sport rule making issue, then you aren't the problem. You if you don't think that passing laws limiting the participation of transgendered individuals in sports is one of the most important issues this election season, then you aren't whom the accusations of bigotry are aimed at. 

4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Everything can be construed as arbitrary. You can argue an Under-18 sports league is arbitrary because what's the real difference between that and 17.5y/18.5y weeks besides a round number. My argument its a convenient boundary to split human population. Most of the world establishes 18 as the legal age of majority separating adults vs minors.  Therefore its less arbitrary.

Gender is an ultra convenient boundary to split human population. Its a world recognized distinction within human population, separating them by half!  It's very much less arbitrary.

Don't tar that as sexism, like age brackets isn't ageism.  Neither age or gender grouping in sports is done out of spite.

You talk around the periphery of the issue. You're clear you don't like people who push the issue. But you're not clear about your own view of the issue itself: is gender segregation in elite competition a good thing?

You kinda admit coyly that yes, its a good thing, but simply it shouldnt be determind by government. Is that the right read?

 

I've not been coy at all. I think allowing more people to compete is generally a good thing. But, like you, I don't believe the government should be involved in rule making for sports bodies. Especially not for an issue that will impact only a fraction of a percent of the population in any meaningful way. Unlike you, I recognize the push for those laws for what it is: a pretext for bigotry and hatred. 

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

that i agree on.  its up to each organization to decide whats appropriate for their sport, subject to the pressure of their participants and customers. likewise govt shouldnt be involved in the opposite direction.

what i dont agree with -- and people tend to gloss over this part directly to their own moral conclusion -- is if people feign as if gender is irrelevant in sports..

No one in this thread has claimed sex is irrelevant in sports. I specifically addressed how important hormone differences are in determining physical attributes and you laughed it off as impossible to address because cycling has an issue with doping. 

43 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Correct. Do you not see Dahobbs and Beau Vine and Nivek and many others immediately take my comment and turn it into an abortion rant?

Your comment was about being glad to be living in a state where the laws protects your daughters. I just pointed the utter hypocrisy of being glad about a law that will "protect" them from an issue as rare as being struck by lightning while in exchange exposing them to health risk that every woman faces. The fact that you don't see that both sets of laws for what they are--bigoted laws designed to control and minimize certain class of citizens--is completely on you.  

[Sawbonz 27580]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

I don't see how anything you wrote, or anybody wrote, suggests in anyway that results in young girls being denied to playing sports....and all the other baggage accompanying that

I can’t help you if you are stupid and or illiterate. I’m sorry

[52-80 19214]

9 minutes ago, G650 said:

It's been a long road, but I've pretty sincerely come to believe this was a mistake in the first place. It's easy to see why it was considered the right move at the time, but in hindsight, I think skill tiers would have been better. You would basically compete at the highest level that you could.

In which sport would the highest level be majority woman, or ever have a woman at its peak?

[Brisketexan 105192]

13 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

At the elite level, a trans female is free to compete in the group coincident with their birth gender.

Cool.

So, I have an athlete over here who was born with a vagina.  She has to compete as a female.

WHOOPS....turns out she has a condition known as being intersex.  So, maybe she has XY chromosomes (one possible result of being intersex).  Or, maybe she has very high testosterone levels (another possible result of being intersex).  So.....what is her "birth gender?"

Everyone who is so dismissive and functionally says "just check and see if she was born with a dick" isn't actually interested in addressing the issues that might give an athlete an unfair competitive advantage.  Instead, it's all performative rah-rah my political team bullshit.

Again, this wasn't an important issue a few years ago.  Now, it is THE MOST IMPORTANT CRISIS OF OUR TIME, AND WE NEED TO ELECT A PRESIDENT AND SENATOR WHO WILL PROTECT GIRLS!  You're being played.  Like you always are.  And apparently, you like it.  Dance, monkey, dance.

[troph 24901]

44 minutes ago, bolverk said:

The Texas Constitution still says I, an atheist, can never hold public office in this state. One way or another, any of us can easily become a member of some out-group, which is why we should all fight for everyone else's rights.

I responded broadly, failure to respond to you directly isn’t the indictment you think it is. 
 

btw that Texas constitutional provision is per se unenforceable and unconstitutional. I’d be thrilled to have anti trans legislation on the books any law they want if it was settled law it’s unconstitutional.  

[Huckleberry 33057]

Since everyone else is giving their opinion, I'll go ahead and state that I currently support the Open and Female sports division structure in a perfect world. There will still be issues defining requirements for the female division because biological sex isn't black and white like some people want to believe, and it will still feel unfair to some people. It's just that right now I think it's the best solution. Trans girls and boys would be eligible for the open division. The fact that they wouldn't be as competitive there doesn't sway me because they'd be like the million cisgender males who get cut from teams during tryouts every year. 

What does sway me is that people are assholes and trans people would be even more ridiculed than they are now, so it's not a perfect world and the whole situation is shitty, the shittiest part being the imbeciles who don't actually give a shit but are told it's a crisis by idiots on TV.

Edited October 3 by Huckleberry

[Texasborn91 941]

14 minutes ago, G650 said:

It's been a long road, but I've pretty sincerely come to believe this was a mistake in the first place. It's easy to see why it was considered the right move at the time, but in hindsight, I think skill tiers would have been better. You would basically compete at the highest level that you could.

No. 

[G650 14273]

5 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

In which sport would the highest level be majority woman, or ever have a woman at its peak?

What part of my post indicated that I thought there would be one

[C-Man 27244]

1 hour ago, Willfully Horn said:

As this is now a CR thread: the party of criminals and freaks has whipped this into a wedge issue. Three years ago, less than 30% of the country was concerned about this issue. That number has more than doubled since.

Yep. I'd like to get to a common sense agreement using certain parameters that allow transgender athletes the ability to play the sports fairly -- or as fairly as possible -- with their peers. How you define that, I don't really know. But this is an issue? In a country with 350 million people, how many examples are there of this? Less than 100?

This country has real fucking problems. News flash: This doesn't crack the top 1000.

[Js1 85470]

8 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

we need to just hurry up and embrace the sci-fi world and have all sports be co-ed. if you can make the grade, it doesn't matter what is between your legs. 

[royiv 9333]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Explain it to me like I'm Brent Venables.

You still wouldn’t understand. Venables is a Nobel laureate compared to you. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33881]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

I'm mostly here for the coed showers

[Pancho 44907]

She’s not even the best player on the team lol

Some of the teams who are forfeiting played against this same person LAST YEAR AND THE YEAR BEFORE AND WON.

[Huckleberry 33057]

1 minute ago, Pancho said:

She’s not even the best player on the team lol

Some of the teams who are forfeiting played against this same person LAST YEAR AND THE YEAR BEFORE AND WON.

In case anyone needed any more proof that the forfeits are nothing more than political theatrics.