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Ohio State @ Oregon


tokamak

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42 minutes ago, Muny_Tex said:

If that "12 men on field" is not a dead ball / clock reset penalty....then what is to stop an enterprising DC from literally putting ~20 dudes into the secondary right at the snap if opposition has a "XX and Long",  dwindling clock, and an obvious deep passing situation.....seems like the 5-6 seconds of elapsed clock is well worth the benign 5 yard (meaningless) penalty.....what am I missing here?

Missing that the QB should just spike it in that situation, most likely.

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No. 2 Oregon had 12 men on the field late its 32-31 win over No. 4 Ohio State, with the resulting penalty causing precious seconds to wind off the clock.

Turns out, it was on purpose. 

"We spend an inordinate amount of time on situations and some situations don't come up very often in college football, but this was obviously something we had worked on," Oregon coach Dan Lanning said Monday night. "You can see the result." 

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/41802259/dan-lanning-says-ducks-purposely-induced-12-men-penalty-late

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On the Yahoo CFB podcast, one of the reporters (Pat Forde?) shared an anecdote about being in an elevator with some Oregon coaches after the game. Said they were still shaking their heads about the 12 men penalty as if it was a fuckup and definitely not intentional. 

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Watching the replay it sure didn't look like a plan, looked like a cluster fuck.   Also from the replay, tOSU looked to have size like the Longhorns but not the speed at every position.  And their offense is incredibly predictable on the ground.  Their long game seems to be predicated on making circus hail mary catches to save drives.  Ducks have speed just about everywhere but not the size to push people around.  Texas beats them both by about tree fiddy.

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1 hour ago, Doc Daneeka said:

I think it’s much more likely that he’s just trying to pass it off as a plan and not a fuckup. 

Maybe, but that's even dumber.  Why would you cop to breaking a rule like that on purpose?  If it happens again by accident he could be penalized 15 yards now that he's openly said he did it on purpose.

So, either he's an idiot for having 12 men on the field after a time out, or he's an idiot for admitting to knowingly cheating when he didn't knowingly cheat.  Either way, not a great look.

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Just now, DixonHur said:

Maybe, but that's even dumber.  Why would you cop to breaking a rule like that on purpose?  If it happens again by accident he could be penalized 15 yards now that he's openly said he did it on purpose.

So, either he's an idiot for having 12 men on the field after a time out, or he's an idiot for admitting to knowingly cheating when he didn't knowingly cheat.  Either way, not a great look.

So you don’t look like a dumbass. 

“Could” doing a lot of work in a scenario with a vanishingly small chance to reoccur. 

When either way is not a great look, I’d opt for the one that didn’t make me look like a dumbass. Which is what it looks like Lanning chose, as well. 

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1 hour ago, TOR said:

Watching the replay it sure didn't look like a plan, looked like a cluster fuck.   Also from the replay, tOSU looked to have size like the Longhorns but not the speed at every position.  And their offense is incredibly predictable on the ground.  Their long game seems to be predicated on making circus hail mary catches to save drives.  Ducks have speed just about everywhere but not the size to push people around.  Texas beats them both by about tree fiddy.

After hearing his explanation and rewatching the play, it did kinda look planned.  With all the pointing by the DBs and coach basically pushing the player on the field, it's like they wanted to refs to see the new guy, so they were sure to call it.

4 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

So you don’t look like a dumbass. 

“Could” doing a lot of work in a scenario with a vanishingly small chance to reoccur. 

When either way is not a great look, I’d opt for the one that didn’t make me look like a dumbass. Which is what it looks like Lanning chose, as well. 

He looks like a dumbass either way.  But I'd argue there is not a small chance for that situation to occur.  Those last second drills happen a lot, and if you can take 40% of the time off the clock, basically taking the game from 2 plays to 1, it's a smart move.  Underhanded and unfair, but smart as longs as you don't get caught.  But bragging about it is not smart.  

Oregon won the game, so just deny, deny, deny.

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Just now, DixonHur said:

After hearing his explanation and rewatching the play, it did kinda look planned.  With all the pointing by the DBs and coach basically pushing the player on the field, it's like they wanted to refs to see the new guy, so they were sure to call it.

He looks like a dumbass either way.  But I'd argue there is not a small chance for that situation to occur.  Those last second drills happen a lot, and if you can take 40% of the time off the clock, basically taking the game from 2 plays to 1, it's a smart move.  Underhanded and unfair, but smart as longs as you don't get caught.  But bragging about it is not smart.  

Oregon won the game, so just deny, deny, deny.

Why would he want them to call it?

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I don't think Howard even knew they ran another DB on the field right before the snap. It looked like the formation was set up to get Smith a 1-1 matchup to the field with the thought being he was going to get 10-12 yards to set up a long FG. Lanning doing that intentionally seems rather risky in case Ohio State ran off the final 10 seconds before they were able to call their final TO. It worked out because the throw was late and Muhammad made a good play on the ball.

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2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Yes, but the chances of a completion go down considerably when you have 12 defenders.

Yeah, exactly. THAT is why you have the 12 guys, not to get them to call the penalty. I mean, ideally in that situation you want the stop and no penalty. There’s no scenario in which you want to make an effort to get the penalty seen. You’re gambling that the extra guy prevents a play longer than the penalty yardage. 

Edited by Doc Daneeka
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1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Yes, but the chances of a completion go down considerably when you have 12 defenders.

Correct.  But the success of the plan doesn't hinge on you getting called, that's just a 5 yard penalty you're willing to take in exchange for wasting a few seconds.  Even better for you if it's not called, so why bring attention to it?

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DD is correct.  The upside to the defense is getting the advantage that 12 vs. 11 provides.  Ordinarily it isn't an advantage because it gets flagged and you give up 5 yards and repeat the down.  With only 10 seconds left, however, the replay of the down and the cost of only 5 yards pales in comparison to the burning of time.  So, by playing 12 against 11, you force the offense into a play where they are at a disadvantage (11 against 12) while at the same time burning precious time.  If you can do that without getting called for a penalty - that's great.  Even if you do get called for the penalty, then you gladly exchange the 5 yards for the time burned (because they do not put the time back on the clock.  There is really no scenario where the defense would proactively be looking to definitively get flagged though.

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2 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Yeah, exactly. THAT is why you have the 12 guys, not to get them to call the penalty. I mean, ideally in that situation you want the stop and no penalty. There’s no scenario in which you want to make an effort to get the penalty seen. 

I'd want the penalty so play stops and allows you me to substitute more easily after the expected incompletion.  Without the penalty tOSU could have dictated the tempo.

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Just now, DixonHur said:

I'd want the penalty so play stops and allows you me to substitute more easily after the expected incompletion.  Without the penalty tOSU could have dictated the tempo.

Ah. I thought you said it was because of the four seconds. I guess now it was to stop play. I wonder what it will be next. 

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2 minutes ago, Doc Daneeka said:

Ah. I thought you said it was because of the four seconds. I guess now it was to stop play. I wonder what it will be next. 

Yeah, god forbid there are multiple reasons.  

Putting 12 men on the field is about lowering the chances of a successful play, thereby lessening the time on the clock.  Getting the penalty is about prepping for the next play.  It's really not that complicated.

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Just now, DixonHur said:

Yeah, god forbid there are multiple reasons.  

Putting 12 men on the field is about lowering the chances of a successful play, thereby lessening the time on the clock.  Getting the penalty is about prepping for the next play.  It's really not that complicated.

Maybe it just seems complicated when someone drips out the reasons one at a time as each previous one makes less sense. 

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45 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

After hearing his explanation and rewatching the play, it did kinda look planned.  With all the pointing by the DBs and coach basically pushing the player on the field, it's like they wanted to refs to see the new guy, so they were sure to call it.

That's even dumber. Having 12 men on the field and not getting called for it is always better than getting called for it. 

He said late. 

Edited by Huckleberry
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Well, it was fun while it lasted. 

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The NCAA is closing the loophole used by Oregon to shave time off the game clock at the end of Saturday's win over Ohio State.

In a release Wednesday, the NCAA issued a new rules interpretation on how to handle a penalty for 12 players on the field in the final two minutes of either half. If the defense has 12 players actively participate in the down, the offense can choose, along with the 5-yard penalty, to have the game clock reset to the time that had been displayed at the snap.

No time change would be made if there were 12 players but one of them was attempting to leave the field and did not affect the play. 

---- 

Just before the ball was snapped, Oregon defensive back Dontae Manning walked onto the field, giving the Ducks an extra defender. Ohio State failed to complete a pass against Oregon's 12-man defense, and the Ducks were flagged for an illegal substitution penalty, surrendering 5 yards but also taking four seconds off the clock. A scramble by Ohio State quarterback Will Howard on the next play ended the game.

Such a ploy will no longer work going forward, as NCAA football secretary-rules editor Steve Shaw said in a statement that they were looking to "take away any gain for the defense" from committing an intentional penalty.

"Football is a very dynamic game," Shaw said. "Occasionally there are specific situations where committing a penalty can give a team an advantage. A guiding principle of the NCAA Football Rules Committee is that there should be no benefit when a team commits a penalty." 

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/41832824/ncaa-issues-interpretation-restore-12-man-penalty

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What rule is that an 'interpretation' of?  That just sounds like an entirely new rule.

I was not aware that refs had a pile of 'interpretations' that aren't actually in the rule book.   Are these published somewhere?

 

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“Football is a very dynamic game," Shaw said. "Occasionally there are specific situations where committing a penalty can give a team an advantage. A guiding principle of the NCAA Football Rules Committee is that there should be no benefit when a team commits a penalty.”
 

Like, say, intentional pass interference on a play more than 15 yards downfield?

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54 minutes ago, 0xdeadbeef said:

What rule is that an 'interpretation' of?  That just sounds like an entirely new rule.

I was not aware that refs had a pile of 'interpretations' that aren't actually in the rule book.   Are these published somewhere?

 

Turns out, the 4th page of the official NCAA Football rule book has this as a title:

2024 NCAA® FOOTBALL RULES AND INTERPRETATIONS

https://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4705-2024-ncaa-football-rules-book-online-only.aspx

Learn something new every day.  

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