A Jew

[CHIEF 5079]

Mel Brooks missed a golden opportunity in his History of The World series, "Christopher Columbusbergman, set sail for India with the Nina, Pinta, and the Mazel Tov. Oy vey, what a missed opportunity.

CHIEF

[Incredulity 11660]

26 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Mel Brooks missed a golden opportunity in his History of The World series, "Christopher Columbusbergman, set sail for India with the Nina, Pinta, and the Mazel Tov. Oy vey, what a missed opportunity.

CHIEF

Lobo, that you?

[DixonHur 11296]

 

[VirginiaLonghorn 4769]

28 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

Mel Brooks missed a golden opportunity in his History of The World series, "Christopher Columbusbergman, set sail for India with the Nina, Pinta, and the Mazel Tov. Oy vey, what a missed opportunity.

CHIEF

Bristopher Circumstein

[Muny_Tex 293]

I guess the Santa Maria was a more appealing name for a ship than the "Same As Cash for 6 Months, then 39.99% APR thereafter"

EDIT: Sorry saw Chief already claimed that joke idea

Edited October 16 by Muny_Tex

[Trey3216 15345]

On 10/14/2024 at 6:21 PM, Bevo said:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckg2049ezpko.amp
 

Famed explorer Christopher Columbus was likely Spanish and Jewish, according to a new genetic study conducted by Spanish scientists that aimed to shed light on a centuries-old mystery.

 

 

 

Catalonia eyes, venga Florida

Judean Disguise…con barcos

 

[Earl Haffler 590]

[Brisketexan 105085]

Every time I see the thread title, I go back to this fantastic senate campaign:

[Bill Brasky 1443]

 

[89Horn 1514]

On 10/14/2024 at 4:21 PM, Bevo said:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckg2049ezpko.amp
 

Famed explorer Christopher Columbus was likely Spanish and Jewish, according to a new genetic study conducted by Spanish scientists that aimed to shed light on a centuries-old mystery.

 

 

 

Whoah, whoah, whoah.  Wait, what?

- Felipe, Isabela, and Torquemada 

 

[RDCanecutter 26404]

By Thor, none of this matters.

[Bevo 13571]

It seems like no one here really cares. Here is a short opinion piece on him done before we learned he was Spanish and Jewish. I wonder if some of the criticism of him was because of religion or ethnicity. I find it crazy that one of the most well-known figures in American history may not be well-known at all and different prejudices and preconceived notions of him over the ages have colored opinions.

 

OPINION

Opinion/Delaney: Shedding light on the real Christopher Columbus

Carol Delaney

Carol Delaney, of Providence, is professor emerita at Stanford University.

Columbus Day is coming soon, but so many people want to get rid of it or replace it with Indigenous Peoples’ Day. I think the latter is a good idea but not as a replacement for Columbus Day.

Most people know very little about the man and are blaming him for things he did not do and defacing or destroying statues of him. Until the fall of 1999 I, too, knew very little about him except that “in 1492 he sailed the ocean blue.” At that time I was teaching a class at Stanford called “Millennial Fever” to look at the frenzy over the turn of the millennium. In one of the readings for the class there was a small footnote that mentioned Columbus’ apocalyptic, millennial beliefs. I had never heard of them nor had any historians whom I asked. But I was intrigued.

Thus began many years of research that resulted in my book, “Columbus and the Quest for Jerusalem.” Despite the title, he was not attempting to sail to Jerusalem but instead to reach the Grand Khan of China. There he hoped to set up a trading post like Marco Polo. The profits from that endeavor were to be used to finance a crusade to wrest Jerusalem back from the Muslims before the end of the world.

This motive is in Columbus’s writings and his agreement with Queen Isabella. Jerusalem had to be in Christian hands so Christ could come again to save all believers, and Columbus felt not many years were left. When he encountered the natives, he wanted them to be saved as well, and he kept asking Isabella to send more priests to teach and baptize the natives so they, too, would be saved.

The Santa Maria went aground on the first voyage. So after making friends with the natives, especially the chief, Guacanagari, he had to return to get a rescue ship. He left 39 men behind with strict orders that they respect and obey Guacanagari, that they not go marauding and raping. Isabella sent him back with 17 ships and hundreds more men. A gruesome site awaited them — all 39 men were dead and spread out on the beach. The incoming sailors wanted revenge on Guacanagari but Columbus said no. He learned that the men had gone against his orders, went marauding to another group of natives and that group came and killed them. He remained friends with the chief but had a difficult time with the incoming men.

The next time he returned to Spain he became a lay Franciscan monk and is said to have worn the robes for the rest of his life. Columbus the monk! Whoever heard of this?

He never had a slave, but Las Casas, who has become known as a “defender of the Indians,” not only had slaves but two encomiendas (large ranches) that were worked by slaves. Finally, it is not really accurate to call him the “discoverer” of America, since the only thing he felt he had discovered was the western ocean route to China. While in the new world he was often off sailing, still trying to find the Grand Khan.

Nevertheless, I think we need to acknowledge Columbus Day, for he was the one who opened the route to what we know as the “new world.”

[Gatorubet 30189]

8 minutes ago, Bevo said:

It seems like no one here really cares. Here is a short opinion piece on him done before we learned he was Spanish and Jewish. I wonder if some of the criticism of him was because of religion or ethnicity. I find it crazy that one of the most well-known figures in American history may not be well-known at all and different prejudices and preconceived notions of him over the ages have colored opinions.

 

OPINION

Opinion/Delaney: Shedding light on the real Christopher Columbus

Carol Delaney

Carol Delaney, of Providence, is professor emerita at Stanford University.

Columbus Day is coming soon, but so many people want to get rid of it or replace it with Indigenous Peoples’ Day. I think the latter is a good idea but not as a replacement for Columbus Day.

Most people know very little about the man and are blaming him for things he did not do and defacing or destroying statues of him. Until the fall of 1999 I, too, knew very little about him except that “in 1492 he sailed the ocean blue.” At that time I was teaching a class at Stanford called “Millennial Fever” to look at the frenzy over the turn of the millennium. In one of the readings for the class there was a small footnote that mentioned Columbus’ apocalyptic, millennial beliefs. I had never heard of them nor had any historians whom I asked. But I was intrigued.

Thus began many years of research that resulted in my book, “Columbus and the Quest for Jerusalem.” Despite the title, he was not attempting to sail to Jerusalem but instead to reach the Grand Khan of China. There he hoped to set up a trading post like Marco Polo. The profits from that endeavor were to be used to finance a crusade to wrest Jerusalem back from the Muslims before the end of the world.

This motive is in Columbus’s writings and his agreement with Queen Isabella. Jerusalem had to be in Christian hands so Christ could come again to save all believers, and Columbus felt not many years were left. When he encountered the natives, he wanted them to be saved as well, and he kept asking Isabella to send more priests to teach and baptize the natives so they, too, would be saved.

The Santa Maria went aground on the first voyage. So after making friends with the natives, especially the chief, Guacanagari, he had to return to get a rescue ship. He left 39 men behind with strict orders that they respect and obey Guacanagari, that they not go marauding and raping. Isabella sent him back with 17 ships and hundreds more men. A gruesome site awaited them — all 39 men were dead and spread out on the beach. The incoming sailors wanted revenge on Guacanagari but Columbus said no. He learned that the men had gone against his orders, went marauding to another group of natives and that group came and killed them. He remained friends with the chief but had a difficult time with the incoming men.

The next time he returned to Spain he became a lay Franciscan monk and is said to have worn the robes for the rest of his life. Columbus the monk! Whoever heard of this?

He never had a slave, but Las Casas, who has become known as a “defender of the Indians,” not only had slaves but two encomiendas (large ranches) that were worked by slaves. Finally, it is not really accurate to call him the “discoverer” of America, since the only thing he felt he had discovered was the western ocean route to China. While in the new world he was often off sailing, still trying to find the Grand Khan.

Nevertheless, I think we need to acknowledge Columbus Day, for he was the one who opened the route to what we know as the “new world.”

That article is complete horseshit and Columbus knob slobbering.  no offense to Bevo for posting it.

[dcbc 14465]

1 hour ago, 89Horn said:

Whoah, whoah, whoah.  Wait, what?

- Felipe, Isabela, and Torquemada 

 

Absolutely brilliant.  I had a lot of Jewish friends growing up, and the first time I saw this was with one of them at his insistence.  I was so hooked, Goy though I am.

Edited October 31 by dcbc

[Bevo 13571]

34 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

That article is complete horseshit and Columbus knob slobbering.  no offense to Bevo for posting it.

Read up on Carol Delaney. She could be wrong but she is an expert.

[Deej 76756]

8 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Absolutely brilliant.

There will never be another Mel Brooks. I'm not sure our society would allow it. 

[Bevo 13571]

42 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

That article is complete horseshit and Columbus knob slobbering.  no offense to Bevo for posting it.

And I don’t take offense. I’m curious because I’m Jewish and wonder if he wasn’t treated fairly early on because he was an outsider and not a true Catholic and maybe at other times in history because he was Catholic and not Protestant. Maybe his strong faith that he showed outwardly was a ruse. And now there is a totally different prejudice because people are very anti-imperialism and have a disdain towards how people treated the indigenous. For me it is just a theory that may or may not be supported by evidence. 

[Gatorubet 30189]

9 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Read up on Carol Delaney. She could be wrong but she is an expert.

Columbus and his men rounded up Arawak men, women, and children and put them in pens in four caravels bound for the slave market of southern Spain during his second voyage to the New World. Approximately 200 perished during the trip.  The survivors were sold as slaves in Spain. Columbus later wrote: “Let us in the name of the Holy Trinity go on sending all the slaves that can be sold”.   He had been specifically ordered not to take them as slaves, but fuck it, it made a lot of money.

He is more famously known, while in Haiti, for ordering all Natives 14 years or older to collect enough gold to fill a hawks bell every three months, an impossible task since there was so little gold there. If Arawak Natives did not collect enough, their hands were cut off. The Spaniards also fed their fighting dogs native children when they ran out of food, and would test the sharpness of their blades by cutting off the limbs of the natives.   One source of this information is his son.  Another is Bartolome de las Casas, who as a young priest witnessed many atrocities committed by Spaniards against Native peoples under Columbus’s Governorship. He later wrote: “I saw here cruelty on a scale no living being has ever seen or expects to see.” Las Casas described the treatment of Natives: “Our work was to exasperate, ravage, kill, mangle and destroy; small wonder, then, if they tried to kill one of us now and then…. The admiral, it is true, was blind as those who came after him, and he was so anxious to please the King that he committed irreparable crimes against the Indians…”

At one point as Governor he also noted in his writings that nine-year-old Indian women were the preferred sex slaves. He often gave native women to his officers for that use.  He was not condemning the use of nine year olds for sex slaves.  He was not stopping it.  He was not bemoaning it. He was just noting what was going on under his administration.

Most historians tend to believe the contemporary accounts of people who were with Columbus in the New World - like his son and the Priest -  instead of people today referring to him wanting natives’ souls saved as his main goal.  Columbus was eventually arrested and sent back to Spain for violating the royal orders from the very beginning to treat the natives kindly.  Naturally, a lot of other politics were involved, to be sure. It is worth noting that in his trial he admitted doing those things.   But he had made so damn much money for the Crown that they let him retire.

Why Carol left that part out I do not know. 

[Gatorubet 30189]

32 minutes ago, Bevo said:

And I don’t take offense. I’m curious because I’m Jewish and wonder if he wasn’t treated fairly early on because he was an outsider and not a true Catholic and maybe at other times in history because he was Catholic and not Protestant. Maybe his strong faith that he showed outwardly was a ruse. And now there is a totally different prejudice because people are very anti-imperialism and have a disdain towards how people treated the indigenous. For me it is just a theory that may or may not be supported by evidence. 

Honestly, if people at the time thought that he was a Jew I don’t think they would’ve let him lead an expedition to the New World, let alone a number of them.  He had so many political enemies that I’m sure that would’ve been a main point to use against him at every opportunity.   It is pretty clear that most of the Spaniards in the New World considered the natives the same way Nazis considered the untermensch 

[Bevo 13571]

9 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Columbus and his men rounded up Arawak men, women, and children and put them in pens in four caravels bound for the slave market of southern Spain during his second voyage to the New World. Approximately 200 perished during the trip.  The survivors were sold as slaves in Spain. Columbus later wrote: “Let us in the name of the Holy Trinity go on sending all the slaves that can be sold”.   He had been specifically ordered not to take them as slaves, but fuck it, it made a lot of money.

He is more famously known, while in Haiti, for ordering all Natives 14 years or older to collect enough gold to fill a hawks bell every three months, an impossible task since there was so little gold there. If Arawak Natives did not collect enough, their hands were cut off. The Spaniards also fed their fighting dogs native children when they ran out of food, and would test the sharpness of their blades by cutting off the limbs of the natives.   One source of this information is his son.  Another is Bartolome de las Casas, who as a young priest witnessed many atrocities committed by Spaniards against Native peoples under Columbus’s Governorship. He later wrote: “I saw here cruelty on a scale no living being has ever seen or expects to see.” Las Casas described the treatment of Natives: “Our work was to exasperate, ravage, kill, mangle and destroy; small wonder, then, if they tried to kill one of us now and then…. The admiral, it is true, was blind as those who came after him, and he was so anxious to please the King that he committed irreparable crimes against the Indians…”

At one point as Governor he also noted in his writings that nine-year-old Indian women were the preferred sex slaves. He often gave native women to his officers for that use.  He was not condemning the use of nine year olds for sex slaves.  He was not stopping it.  He was not bemoaning it. He was just noting what was going on under his administration.

Most historians tend to believe the contemporary accounts of people who were with Columbus in the New World - like his son and the Priest -  instead of people today referring to him wanting natives’ souls saved as his main goal.  Columbus was eventually arrested and sent back to Spain for violating the royal orders from the very beginning to treat the natives kindly.  Naturally, a lot of other politics were involved, to be sure. It is worth noting that in his trial he admitted doing those things.   But he had made so damn much money for the Crown that they let him retire.

Why Carol left that part out I do not know. 

She does address it in her book. Many of the accounts were from a small number of sources.

[dcbc 14465]

2 hours ago, Deej said:

There will never be another Mel Brooks. I'm not sure our society would allow it. 

This is 100% true.  There's a list of "never anothers," and it's sad.  But we got to co-exist with a lot of them.  Could be a thread.

Edited November 1 by dcbc

[Deej 76756]

Not a bad idea.

[MAUFRAIS 6621]

I saw him do an interview where someone asked him if he thought he could make blazing saddles today. He said he didn’t think so because he’d take them the script and they’d say “are you crazy? You already made this exact movie!”