The Battle off Samar. The US Navy’s “Finest Hour” October 25, 1944

[UpperWestside 6159]

Of every battle that the United States engaged in during the Pacific War, this is the one that truly defined what courage in the face of not just overwhelming, but seemingly impossible odds to achieve even a modicum of success, looked like. I will spare most of the details as I would assume most everyone who studies World War II as a hobby, or like myself as part of a career that will span the rest of my life going forward, knows about this battle. 

What I do want to draw attention to is that at the outset of hostilities on December 7th, 1941, the high command of the Japanese forces almost universally believed that America did not have the stomach to take part in a war like this one. They thought the decadent Americans would not be able to engage in the all out warfare required in a fight like this. They did not believe that the national essence of the Americans was on the level of their own.
 

THEY WERE WRONG ON EVERY COUNT.

The American sailors aboard the Hoel, the Heermann, the Johnston and the Samuel B. Roberts, famously known as “The destroyer escort that fought like a battleship” got wind of a massive fleet headed their way that fateful morning. Captain Robert Copeland of the Samuel B. Roberts uttered perhaps the greatest phrase ever said by a US naval commander as they made the decision to engage the center force of the Imperial Japanese Navy.

“A large Japanese fleet has been contacted. They are fifteen miles away and headed in our direction. They are believed to have four battleships, eight cruisers, and a number of destroyers. This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can.”

The temerity to make that statement while knowing you are taking on the Yamato, the largest battleship ever constructed, a ship so large that it outweighed all of the ships of Taffy 3 by itself, is just stunning. It’s a wonder the Samuel B. Roberts hadn’t sank already considering all the excess weight of Copeland’s balls of steel.

Commander Ernest Evans of the Johnston took his Tin Can straight into the belly of the IJN Center Force beast and blew the freaking bow off the heavy cruiser Kumano with a well aimed torpedo. He did not even wait for orders to enter the fray. He just did it. This caused a second cruiser to exit the battle to protect the Kumano. Evans was a Native American graduate of the Naval Academy and he said shortly before his ship left the west coast that it was a fighting ship and anyone who did not want to fight could leave. No one did. Evans and the crew of the Johnston fought like the hounds of hell that morning before finally being stopped dead in the water. Surviving sailors from the Johnston recalled the sailors aboard an IJN ship saluting them as they were floating in the open sea. Ernest Evans was never seen again. He would be posthumously awarded The Medal of Honor. That we do not have a statue of this man in every single state in the US is a travesty. I have no doubt he would have retired an admiral had he survived this encounter. His actions and those of his sailors, as well as those in the rest of Taffy 3, won perhaps the most improbable naval victory in history. Just sheer courage and a willingness to not back down won that morning’s brawl and saved an untold amount of lives in the invasion force on Leyte.
 

This doesn’t even include the bravery of the pilots that flew as many as 20 dummy torpedo runs on the IJN Center Force just to shield their comrades from taking fire on the escort carriers that they took off from. Some would land on shore and reload and head back from Leyte to rejoin the fight. Good God the fight those men showed was just on a level I will never fully comprehend.

Anytime I tell this story to people I have to at times just stop because it chokes me up a bit to recount the bravery and heroism on display 80 years ago today. None of us here will ever be in the position those men were in. They stepped in to save their fellow sailors on the escort carriers as well as the soldiers of the invasion force on Leyte under MacArthur’s command. They were what an actual hero looks like. Heroes are not those who compete in sports. Heroes are these men who would sacrifice their own life to save others. So many of those heroes went to the bottom of the ocean that morning. They would never return home to marry and start a family. They would never make it to old age. Many of them gave the last full measure of their life at a very young age 80 years ago today. If you have a Navy vet in your family or amongst your friends tell them thank you today. If you know a family member of one of the veterans of The Battle off Samar tell them they have not been forgotten.

And also I know that the animosity towards Admiral Halsey has never completely died down for chasing the carriers and leaving things wide open for the IJN, but I look at it from a different angle. Bull Halsey chasing the decoy fleet allowed what transpired to happen. We owe a debt of gratitude to those men that we can never repay for that morning 80 years ago. I will tell and retell this story for as long as I live and can educate folks on what happened out there. Just a bunch of young men that took on a force they had no business fighting, but they did anyhow and they won because they didn’t know they weren’t supposed to be capable of what they did.

Not bad for a bunch of comfortable Americans who would never withstand the rigors of warfare. Not bad at all.

Edited October 25 by UpperWestside

[UpperWestside 6159]

 

https://a.co/d/fBWcWW5

The link will take you to the book where you can purchase it.

James Hornfischer features prominently in that episode up above. He lived the last two decades of his life in Austin with his family before cancer took his life at age 56 in 2021. He was a ridiculously talented writer and this is my favorite book that I have ever read. I highly suggest buying a copy of it. I have bought copies for other people because it is such an important work of literature on the Pacific War.

Again remember the sacrifices made that day 80 years ago and try to do something good for a Navy vet today if you are able to.

 

Edited October 25 by UpperWestside

[Macanudo 12974]

Last Stand of the Tin Can Saillors may be the best WWII books I've ever read.   I knew from reading other books prior that Halsey had fucked up but Hornfischer brought Taffy 3's role (and sacrifice) to the forefront.   It is always a book I recommend for others to read if they are interested in military history.  

For some reason it has really has always stuck with me on how this battle was named.   It's not the Battle of Samar.  It's the Battle off Samar.  It just highlights that this was different.  

[Bateshorn 9927]

2 hours ago, Macanudo said:

Last Stand of the Tin Can Saillors may be the best WWII books I've ever read.   I knew from reading other books prior that Halsey had fucked up but Hornfischer brought Taffy 3's role (and sacrifice) to the forefront.   It is always a book I recommend for others to read if they are interested in military history.  

For some reason it has really has always stuck with me on how this battle was named.   It's not the Battle of Samar.  It's the Battle off Samar.  It just highlights that this was different.  

Este. Not a lot of books have moved me to tears, but this one did. The aviators firing their personal weapons at the Japanese ships once they ran out of bombs and bullets just gets me every time.
 

It’s a transcendent book. 

[SimonBolivar 10957]

7 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

What I do want to draw attention to is that at the outset of hostilities on December 7th, 1941, the high command of the Japanese forces almost universally believed that America did not have the stomach to take part in a war like this one. They thought the decadent Americans would not be able to engage in the all out warfare required in a fight like this. They did not believe that the national essence of the Americans was on the level of their own.

Thanks a lot Czar Nicholas.

[RPM 26315]

The Johnston and Samuel B. Roberts are legend. Evans and Copeland are badasses of the highest order. That episode of Dogfights is excellent. Taffy 3, crossing the T, hit the enemy where he can't hit you. Epic naval surface warfare. Maybe the best ever.

Edited October 25 by RPM

[InkaUtexas 25856]

First words we probably ah shit.

Ordering the book. One for me and one for my dad. I think there was a second cousin of his on one of the destroyers.

[TwiceHorn 31435]

1 hour ago, RPM said:

The Johnston and Samuel B. Roberts are legend. Evans and Copeland are badasses of the highest order. That episode of Dogfights is excellent. Taffy 3, crossing the T, hit the enemy where he can't hit you. Epic naval surface warfare. Maybe the best ever.

Quite amazing because the Fletcher class DD and Butler class DE were both designed and launched after it had become clear that ship to ship surface warfare was not really going to be a thing. And both were generally crewed with younger officers and men that were less likely to be trained intensely in ship to ship warfare. 

ETA Evans was pretty long in the tooth to be a CDR and skipper of a DD, so that probably meant he had a leg up on ship to ship combat, as opposed to ASW, escort and AA/radar picket duty work that was their more normal work. 

Edited October 25 by TwiceHorn

[RPM 26315]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Quite amazing because the Fletcher class DD and Butler class DE were both designed and launched after it had become clear that ship to ship surface warfare was not really going to be a thing. And both were generally crewed with younger officers and men that were less likely to be trained intensely in ship to ship warfare. 

I served on a 378 Cutter. Something between Johnston and Sam B. I can't imagine taking on a battleship, much less a motherfucking TASK FORCE wit nothing more than a couple 5 inch and Hail Mary torpedoes. Suicide mission is being kind. Huevos MUY gigante.

[TwiceHorn 31435]

The Fletcher class was at least fast as shit, design speed 38 kt, and pretty maneuverable with 5x5"/38 and a bunch of Bofors and Oerlikon, which were actually pretty good for fucking up crew.

DEs were barely combat vessels.

Edited October 25 by TwiceHorn

[Macanudo 12974]

38 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The Fletcher class was at least fast as shit, design speed 38 kt, and pretty maneuverable with 5x5"/38 and a bunch of Bofors and Oerlikon, which were actually pretty good for fucking up crew.

DEs were barely combat vessels.

Their speed, along with their crews giant cojones made the difference.   Their ability to charge the Japanese at flank speed changed the battle.

[Farmerted 125]

Been looking for something to read, bought 2 I’ll gift one 

[ABZ 58]

14 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

Of every battle that the United States engaged in during the Pacific War, this is the one that truly defined what courage in the face of not just overwhelming, but seemingly impossible odds to achieve even a modicum of success, looked like. I will spare most of the details as I would assume most everyone who studies World War II as a hobby, or like myself as part of a career that will span the rest of my life going forward, knows about this battle. 

What I do want to draw attention to is that at the outset of hostilities on December 7th, 1941, the high command of the Japanese forces almost universally believed that America did not have the stomach to take part in a war like this one. They thought the decadent Americans would not be able to engage in the all out warfare required in a fight like this. They did not believe that the national essence of the Americans was on the level of their own.
 

THEY WERE WRONG ON EVERY COUNT.

The American sailors aboard the Hoel, the Heermann, the Johnston and the Samuel B. Roberts, famously known as “The destroyer escort that fought like a battleship” got wind of a massive fleet headed their way that fateful morning. Captain Robert Copeland of the Samuel B. Roberts uttered perhaps the greatest phrase ever said by a US naval commander as they made the decision to engage the center force of the Imperial Japanese Navy.

“A large Japanese fleet has been contacted. They are fifteen miles away and headed in our direction. They are believed to have four battleships, eight cruisers, and a number of destroyers. This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can.”

The temerity to make that statement while knowing you are taking on the Yamato, the largest battleship ever constructed, a ship so large that it outweighed all of the ships of Taffy 3 by itself, is just stunning. It’s a wonder the Samuel B. Roberts hadn’t sank already considering all the excess weight of Copeland’s balls of steel.

Commander Ernest Evans of the Johnston took his Tin Can straight into the belly of the IJN Center Force beast and blew the freaking bow off the heavy cruiser Kumano with a well aimed torpedo. He did not even wait for orders to enter the fray. He just did it. This caused a second cruiser to exit the battle to protect the Kumano. Evans was a Native American graduate of the Naval Academy and he said shortly before his ship left the west coast that it was a fighting ship and anyone who did not want to fight could leave. No one did. Evans and the crew of the Johnston fought like the hounds of hell that morning before finally being stopped dead in the water. Surviving sailors from the Johnston recalled the sailors aboard an IJN ship saluting them as they were floating in the open sea. Ernest Evans was never seen again. He would be posthumously awarded The Medal of Honor. That we do not have a statue of this man in every single state in the US is a travesty. I have no doubt he would have retired an admiral had he survived this encounter. His actions and those of his sailors, as well as those in the rest of Taffy 3, won perhaps the most improbable naval victory in history. Just sheer courage and a willingness to not back down won that morning’s brawl and saved an untold amount of lives in the invasion force on Leyte.
 

This doesn’t even include the bravery of the pilots that flew as many as 20 dummy torpedo runs on the IJN Center Force just to shield their comrades from taking fire on the escort carriers that they took off from. Some would land on shore and reload and head back from Leyte to rejoin the fight. Good God the fight those men showed was just on a level I will never fully comprehend.

Anytime I tell this story to people I have to at times just stop because it chokes me up a bit to recount the bravery and heroism on display 80 years ago today. None of us here will ever be in the position those men were in. They stepped in to save their fellow sailors on the escort carriers as well as the soldiers of the invasion force on Leyte under MacArthur’s command. They were what an actual hero looks like. Heroes are not those who compete in sports. Heroes are these men who would sacrifice their own life to save others. So many of those heroes went to the bottom of the ocean that morning. They would never return home to marry and start a family. They would never make it to old age. Many of them gave the last full measure of their life at a very young age 80 years ago today. If you have a Navy vet in your family or amongst your friends tell them thank you today. If you know a family member of one of the veterans of The Battle off Samar tell them they have not been forgotten.

And also I know that the animosity towards Admiral Halsey has never completely died down for chasing the carriers and leaving things wide open for the IJN, but I look at it from a different angle. Bull Halsey chasing the decoy fleet allowed what transpired to happen. We owe a debt of gratitude to those men that we can never repay for that morning 80 years ago. I will tell and retell this story for as long as I live and can educate folks on what happened out there. Just a bunch of young men that took on a force they had no business fighting, but they did anyhow and they won because they didn’t know they weren’t supposed to be capable of what they did.

Not bad for a bunch of comfortable Americans who would never withstand the rigors of warfare. Not bad at all.

Great post topic! My grandfather on my dad's side was on the USS St. Lo (escort carrier) when it was sunk by a kamikaze after the surface action. He was lucky to be on the last ship sunk, as they rescued those survivors much quicker than the other ships sunk earlier in the morning. As a kid, I used to talk to him about the battle, the kamikaze, and about jumping off the flight deck before it sank. He talked to me about it, but never really talked to my dad about the whole experience. The "Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors" book, mentioned above, is one of my favorites. I have read it a couple of times. I keep it on my nightstand.

 

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

I listened to the book during a cross country drive. It’s an outstanding listen as well. 
 

I think they found the Sammy B and/or the Johnston not too long ago. 

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

Well 2022

https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2022/october/wreck-sammy-b-legendary-destroyer-escort-discovered

 

https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2021/04/02/wreck-of-uss-johnston-discovered-77-years-after-its-sinking-at-the-battle-of-leyte-gulf/
 

4 miles down

Edited October 25 by Pato del Muerto

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

Aside- I was at the flying heritage and combat armor museum in Everett, WA this summer and they had on display a few hyper realistic ship models that had been built and donated by a family.  They were about 2-3 feet long for a sense of it. One was the USS Lexington carrier, another was the Yamato.  I told my boys to take a look because they were both built to the same scale and the Yamato was noticeably larger. 

[UpperWestside 6159]

I am going to email my professor because I want to get his brief thoughts on this battle. Dr. Citino has written 10 books about the German Army, but his father was a corpsman at Guadalcanal. The Tarawa exhibit at the National WWII Museum is the one that gets to him the most. Hopefully he has a little time to share some thoughts. If he does I will post them here. I know he was good friends with James Hornfischer so I am certain he will have thoughts on the book.

Edited October 28 by UpperWestside

[UpperWestside 6159]

On 10/25/2024 at 2:38 PM, RPM said:

I served on a 378 Cutter. Something between Johnston and Sam B. I can't imagine taking on a battleship, much less a motherfucking TASK FORCE wit nothing more than a couple 5 inch and Hail Mary torpedoes. Suicide mission is being kind. Huevos MUY gigante.

This is the part of this battle that gets me every time. The courage to get out there in an escort vessel and take on the best of what remained of the IJN leaves me without words to accurately describe their incredible actions that morning. I would like to believe I would have done my job had I been there facing the Center Force and not been pissing down my own leg, but I wasn’t and these men were. That ship joining the fray to help save their comrades is the bravest thing anyone did that morning, and maybe ever, in US Naval warfare. 
 

We have done such a poor job keeping the memory of what transpired there alive for younger generations to learn about. I was talking with a German the other day and he loves history so he is talking to me about helping his daughter out with a school project. Part of their required history lessons are learning about the intracacies of the Marshall Plan. He said he did not know the entire scope of it and how it was not just offered to the US zones after the war. German kids are learning more about important things from this war than our own kids are. When you forget your own history you lose part of who you are as a nation in my opinion.

[TwiceHorn 31435]

On 10/28/2024 at 4:38 PM, UpperWestside said:

I would like to believe I would have done my job

I think a lot of it just boils down to this, and I am sure you would have.  My Dad served on a Fletcher-class DD from 1943 for almost the duration.

While searching for a downed USMC pilot, they took two 6" shells from a shore battery, one exploded right under my Dad's "cabin," raising the deck a couple of inches.  A couple of guys were killed.

They shelled Iwo Jima.

The most intense combat was at Okinawa, where they fended off kamikazes and other aircraft as the screen for the carriers in the task group.  They did not get hit, but rescued 48 sailors from Twiggs after it struck a mine near the beach.  They also inserted UDT and "JASCO" Marines before the invasion, who attached explosives to the barriers and tank traps and reconnoitered the invasion site.

Dad said you just did your job, followed orders, and focused on that and there wasn't time to be afraid.  Where I suppose it would get hairy is in a gun tub when someone else got killed or injured and the chain of command broke down.

[SL Xpress 7513]

On 10/28/2024 at 4:38 PM, UpperWestside said:

This is the part of this battle that gets me every time. The courage to get out there in an escort vessel and take on the best of what remained of the IJN leaves me without words to accurately describe their incredible actions that morning. I would like to believe I would have done my job had I been there facing the Center Force and not been pissing down my own leg, but I wasn’t and these men were. That ship joining the fray to help save their comrades is the bravest thing anyone did that morning, and maybe ever, in US Naval warfare. 
 

We have done such a poor job keeping the memory of what transpired there alive for younger generations to learn about. I was talking with a German the other day and he loves history so he is talking to me about helping his daughter out with a school project. Part of their required history lessons are learning about the intracacies of the Marshall Plan. He said he did not know the entire scope of it and how it was not just offered to the US zones after the war. German kids are learning more about important things from this war than our own kids are. When you forget your own history you lose part of who you are as a nation in my opinion.

At some point it became culturally important to be seen as critical of America's past. I do believe if we whitewash and glorify everything, we can learn the wrong lessons. But when the heroism and bravery of those who came before us is allowed to be diminished and unacknowledged, we lose a sense of pride of who we are and where we came from. There's a healthy spectrum there somewhere. In my opinion as a society we've leaned way too far to the critical side of things. At least from my perspective. 

[TwiceHorn 31435]

1 minute ago, SL Xpress said:

At some point it became culturally important to be seen as critical of America's past. I do believe if we whitewash and glorify everything, we can learn the wrong lessons. But when the heroism and bravery of those who came before us is allowed to be diminished and unacknowledged, we lose a sense of pride of who we are and where we came from. There's a healthy spectrum there somewhere. In my opinion as a society we've leaned way too far to the critical side of things. At least from my perspective. 

Well, part of the problem is that our wars since WWII have been political misadventures for the most part. 

And soldiers and sailors have wrongly been blamed for it or if not blamed, not properly celebrated. 

 

[SL Xpress 7513]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, part of the problem is that our wars since WWII have been political misadventures for the most part. 

And soldiers and sailors have wrongly been blamed for it or if not blamed, not properly celebrated. 

 

I wrote out a long reply, but it all segues away from the original post in ways I'm not comfortable with.

I'll just say I probably don't think there have been as many political misadventures as you do. The problem is we're an isolationist country at heart who found itself the most powerful nation on earth, run by elites who saw US intervention as important and necessary with a general population that doesn't really care about what happens in Canada and Mexico, much less anything farther away. The general voters didn't even really want to get directly involved in World War II until after Pearl Harbor. 

There are also a lot of fair criticisms of this country, just like there is with any organization that's extremely powerful. Being powerful means making mistakes, because there are things you can do that others can't, and there are things you choose not to do that you could have. That's not the issue with the powerless. 

But if a society lacks conviction, it becomes hard to do difficult things, regardless of whether it should or shouldn't be done. Part of what creates that conviction is a pride of identity. Currently it's challenging to teach about having a pride of identity, because there's an important focus on what we should not be proud of. It can be difficult for people to hold both concepts simultaneously. 

In any case, I love the original post. It's an important battle to talk about.

Richard Pryor had a segment in his standup routine in the 70s (I tried to find it on youtube but couldn't) where he talked about the reason why Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor is they were only acquainted with laid back west coast Californian Americans. They didn't know about the Deep South Americans. He didn't mean it as a completely serious comment, and I'm not quoting it as one. I did think it was funny, even when as often was the case with Pryor there were multiple meanings behind it. 

 

[elfenix 34221]

the world wonders

[ztejas 43411]

Hornfischer was a good guy. He and my dad were good friends and I knew his oldest kid growing up. 

I need to give that book a read - have never read any of his stuff. 

I think the Pacific was much more interesting as a theater in general because it was (effectively) 1 on 1 and the gulf (no pun intended) between cultures was so large. It's such a unique conflict - fought on tiny specks of land across thousands miles of ocean. There's never been anything else like it in the history or warfare. And it make for some crazy fucking scenarios. 

[TwiceHorn 31435]

7 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

I wrote out a long reply, but it all segues away from the original post in ways I'm not comfortable with.

I'll just say I probably don't think there have been as many political misadventures as you do. The problem is we're an isolationist country at heart who found itself the most powerful nation on earth, run by elites who saw US intervention as important and necessary with a general population that doesn't really care about what happens in Canada and Mexico, much less anything farther away. The general voters didn't even really want to get directly involved in World War II until after Pearl Harbor. 

There are also a lot of fair criticisms of this country, just like there is with any organization that's extremely powerful. Being powerful means making mistakes, because there are things you can do that others can't, and there are things you choose not to do that you could have. That's not the issue with the powerless. 

But if a society lacks conviction, it becomes hard to do difficult things, regardless of whether it should or shouldn't be done. Part of what creates that conviction is a pride of identity. Currently it's challenging to teach about having a pride of identity, because there's an important focus on what we should not be proud of. It can be difficult for people to hold both concepts simultaneously. 

In any case, I love the original post. It's an important battle to talk about.

Richard Pryor had a segment in his standup routine in the 70s (I tried to find it on youtube but couldn't) where he talked about the reason why Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor is they were only acquainted with laid back west coast Californian Americans. They didn't know about the Deep South Americans. He didn't mean it as a completely serious comment, and I'm not quoting it as one. I did think it was funny, even when as often was the case with Pryor there were multiple meanings behind it. 

 

Well, that's fair.   Let's take "misadventures" out of it, and say more politically debatable, rather than existential conflicts as were WWI and WWII.

But, I think when it comes down to it, acts of heroism are more in service to fellow soldiers and sailors and secondarily in service to country, although it was service to country that placed them in that position.  It's selflessness, either way, and should be celebrated notwithstanding the popularity of the conflict.

Edited October 30 by TwiceHorn

[UpperWestside 6159]

So this is going to be indirectly related to this thread, but it is courtesy of a conversation I was having with a couple from Brisbane a couple of days ago before I left to go on vacation. They know their Australian history, especially World War II and the pilgrimage many Aussies still make to do the Kokoda Track in New Guinea. They tell me they have a picture of something that would probably be of interest. Their house in Brisbane is near an area where no longer existing airstrips used by the USAAF during the war were located. They were digging in their backyard a few years back and they find this. 

 

 

They had tracked down the family that this dog tag belonged to, but were unable to get it to them because they did not hear back from them.  They explained how their backyard had below ground shelters that US soldiers used during the war and this is why it was found when they were digging up their yard. They are still in possession of it, but would like to get it to family members of this soldier. I believe Alice West was his sister. This seems like something that people on Surly can randomly help happen. I am going to try and do my part and email my professors and see how the WWII Museum might be able to help as well.