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10 minutes ago, TexasEd said:

In year 4 was way too late 

Yep.  Something should have been done in Biden's first 3 years.

But an attempt was made, and even the hard-liners in the Senate and House were good with it, until Trump woke up from his nap and decided that any effort would give him one less hammer to use on Biden.

 

 

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Just now, Fudge Nuggets said:

Thank you for your service to the 200 members of Space Force protecting us from Moby Dick and the Titanic iceberg.

Don’t take my word for it, I’m not the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.

Quote

There are three principal reasons for the island’s geopolitical importance. First, it is a vital element of the Greenland-Iceland-UK “gap” that guards the northern approaches to the Atlantic Ocean from Russian naval forces…
 

 

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10 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Thank you for your service to the 200 members of Space Force protecting us from Moby Dick and the Titanic iceberg.

Announcing that we are in fact “occupying” territories where we have a mutually agreed upon military presence can surely have no foreseeable negative consequences. 

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36 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I feel the same way I felt when I saw Gina Chavez perform it at Pride Night in 2021 at the FC Game: the song and the flag belong to everyone except the people who think it only belongs to themselves. They don’t get the flag, they don’t get the anthem and as far as I’m concerned they shouldn’t be left any safe spaces for hate, either. 

 

Nice sentiment in theory, in practice it’s a bit different right now. Every morning I wake up wondering if today is the day Rubio announces they are coming for my identity, I check to see if the bill filed in Texas to retroactively invalidate my Texas DL made it out of committee. There’s plenty of room for hate and the flag and anthem are being taken away from people and we who are under foot can’t do a god damn thing about it. 

Edited by troph
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3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

There is absolutely no reason for us to control Greenland under existing treaties and agreements.

None.

Zero.

Zilch.

There’s no outcome where we “control Greenland” any more than Denmark controls Greenland today (which is even less than we control it today).
No matter what president thinks: this is about what Greenland wants and who they want to sell their nominal allegiance or nominal independence to.  They will determine the outcome of this*, with an outcome probably determined by pitting us against the Chinese for access to rare earth minerals.
 

 

 

* community note: according to Surly lefties, assertions of Greenland’s agency are right wing propaganda. 

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26 minutes ago, troph said:

Nice sentiment in theory, in practice it’s a bit different right now. Every morning I wake up wondering if today is the day Rubio announces they are coming for my identity, I check to see if the bill filed in Texas to retroactively invalidate my Texas DL made it out of committee. There’s plenty of room for hate and the flag and anthem are being taken away from people and we who are under foot can’t do a god damn thing about it. 

I know. I really do. And I know it’s easy for me to say because they aren’t coming for me (yet). But in part because of that, i think it’s critically important that those who are at risk of losing their personhood under the constitution, along with their allies, not only raise the stakes for their would-be oppressors but wrap themselves in the flag when they do it.  We will reach the point this starts to be about the consent of the governed and when that day comes we will need to people on the sidelines to be able to tell who the good guys are. 

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20 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

There’s no outcome where we “control Greenland” any more than Denmark controls Greenland today (which is even less than we control it today).
No matter what president thinks: this is about what Greenland wants and who they want to sell their nominal allegiance or nominal independence to.  They will determine the outcome of this*, with an outcome probably determined by pitting us against the Chinese for access to rare earth minerals.
 

 

 

* community note: according to Surly lefties, assertions of Greenland’s agency are right wing propaganda. 

Don’t paint us all with that brush. Most of us are ignoring y’all. 

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7 hours ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

except this would be giving in to the lie. this is playing along with a border crisis that doesn't exist (or didn't before dotard took back over). what you're asking is for the dems to be complicit in the maga lies in order to win political favor. surely there is a better path

Whether you want to believe it or not, a majority of Americans are not happy with the way dems have addressed the border. Hispanics in particular, especially those who live in border states, resoundingly rejected it. This is the reality, and the national level dems massively misjudged this to their peril. Many post mortems point to this as perhaps the biggest factor in losing what should have been a solid blue bloc

 

eta you don’t have to play to a group’s fears. You do have to acknowledge a group’s fears and show them that you have a plan to address them, not just tell them the fears are unfounded 

Edited by Sawbonz
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Whether you want to believe it or not, a majority of Americans are not happy with the way dems have addressed the border. Hispanics in particular, especially those who live in border states, resoundingly rejected it. This is the reality, and the national level dems massively misjudged this to their peril. Many post mortems point to this as perhaps the biggest factor in losing what should have been a solid blue bloc
 
eta you don’t have to play to a group’s fears. You do have to acknowledge a group’s fears and show them that you have a plan to address them, not just tell them the fears are unfounded 

The Republicans killed a bi-partisan border bill because Trump told them to. What the fuck more did you want the Democrats to do?
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5 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:


The Republicans killed a bi-partisan border bill because Trump told them to. What the fuck more did you want the Democrats to do?

A lot of this is politics. Rhetoric (you can call it propaganda) is important. Somewhere in the past decade democrats either forgot this or became terrible at it. Messaging matters. We’ve known for 30 years now that Americans want immigration reform. Maybe waiting until the 4th qtr to bring a bill wasn’t the best idea

I’m not Hispanic so I’m not the audience dems lost on this. Maybe ask them

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19 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

A lot of this is politics. Rhetoric (you can call it propaganda) is important. Somewhere in the past decade democrats either forgot this or became terrible at it. Messaging matters. We’ve known for 30 years now that Americans want immigration reform. Maybe waiting until the 4th qtr to bring a bill wasn’t the best idea

I’m not Hispanic so I’m not the audience dems lost on this. Maybe ask them

Based on what we’re seeing across the country tonight, Republicans appear poised to to win this battle and lose the war.

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16 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

A lot of this is politics. Rhetoric (you can call it propaganda) is important. Somewhere in the past decade democrats either forgot this or became terrible at it. Messaging matters. We’ve known for 30 years now that Americans want immigration reform. Maybe waiting until the 4th qtr to bring a bill wasn’t the best idea

I’m not Hispanic so I’m not the audience dems lost on this. Maybe ask them

First off, Obama wasn't exactly timid about deportation, plus he and the Senate Dems put together a comprehensive immigration reform bill together in the 2012-2013 timeframe, and the House Republicans wouldn't even bring it up for a vote. 

Trump offered nothing but anger, hate, and a stupid wall. The Dems in the House offered a big border bill, but the Republican Senate also refused to bring up a vote. Of course, Biden's recent bill was also killed by the GOP.

The Dems HAVE BEEN trying to address people's concerns for more than a decade, but the GOP keeps getting in the way, so nothing gets done. Remind me, how the fuck is this the Dems' fault other than they fucking suck at messaging?

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6 minutes ago, Fastbreak said:

How about heavy fines for companies and corporations who employee illegal workers?


Nah - that would hurt corporations and profits...

We aren't serious about this it's all bullshit talking points

Right. The reason the Democrats will not address this issue, and the reason the Republicans fail to really solve it, is because the economy of the US benefits from the status quo.

The illegal workers get to be exploited for sub minimum wages and illegal working conditions and are willing to come and put up with it to send money home to their families. Their labor benefits everybody. If the Democrats, or whomever, took serious steps to introduce some kind of immigration reform to make this all legal, they couldn't really do it without enforcing existing labor standards which would mean they cannot be exploited as much as before. This would be bad for big business so they block any such effort.

And likewise the Republicans only pretend to do something about it and use it as a wedge issue to get out their voters.

So the whole thing is gross and corrupt and nobody does anything about it. And we'll see what happens with this latest ICE thing.

The kind of ridiculous thing is the asylum seekers, they seem to be the ones who are mostly get shit on through all of this. They are ones who get bussed away from the border by Abbott. I think they are ones who are going to be driven out of the country ultimately. The corporations don't care about them. But they aren't even illegal immigrants, they are following the laws.

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1 hour ago, Goofyboy said:


The Republicans killed a bi-partisan border bill because Trump told them to. What the fuck more did you want the Democrats to do?

The Republicans completely shut down governing during the last two years of Obama’s admin, and all of Biden’s….with only a few significant laws being passed….and all Trump did was first and foremost pass a tax cut for the rich….it’s just get power, keep the power.  Time for a chess move.

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39 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

Right. The reason the Democrats will not address this issue, and the reason the Republicans fail to really solve it, is because the economy of the US benefits from the status quo.

The illegal workers get to be exploited for sub minimum wages and illegal working conditions and are willing to come and put up with it to send money home to their families. Their labor benefits everybody. If the Democrats, or whomever, took serious steps to introduce some kind of immigration reform to make this all legal, they couldn't really do it without enforcing existing labor standards which would mean they cannot be exploited as much as before. This would be bad for big business so they block any such effort.

And likewise the Republicans only pretend to do something about it and use it as a wedge issue to get out their voters.

So the whole thing is gross and corrupt and nobody does anything about it. And we'll see what happens with this latest ICE thing.

The kind of ridiculous thing is the asylum seekers, they seem to be the ones who are mostly get shit on through all of this. They are ones who get bussed away from the border by Abbott. I think they are ones who are going to be driven out of the country ultimately. The corporations don't care about them. But they aren't even illegal immigrants, they are following the laws.

Both parties see it as a wedge issue. This was solved in 2007 but a republican poison pill and a down vote by Obama killed it at the last minute if I remember correctly. After the beat down Obama gave republicans even Hannity was ready to sign on to the 2007 bill but Obama wanted the wedge issue for 2012 so I don't remember him introducing anything. What I am saying is I agree with your post even though I may have my facts wrong since I am stating all this from memory. 

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Right. The reason the Democrats will not address this issue, and the reason the Republicans fail to really solve it, is because the economy of the US benefits from the status quo.
The illegal workers get to be exploited for sub minimum wages and illegal working conditions and are willing to come and put up with it to send money home to their families. Their labor benefits everybody. If the Democrats, or whomever, took serious steps to introduce some kind of immigration reform to make this all legal, they couldn't really do it without enforcing existing labor standards which would mean they cannot be exploited as much as before. This would be bad for big business so they block any such effort.
And likewise the Republicans only pretend to do something about it and use it as a wedge issue to get out their voters.
So the whole thing is gross and corrupt and nobody does anything about it. And we'll see what happens with this latest ICE thing.
The kind of ridiculous thing is the asylum seekers, they seem to be the ones who are mostly get shit on through all of this. They are ones who get bussed away from the border by Abbott. I think they are ones who are going to be driven out of the country ultimately. The corporations don't care about them. But they aren't even illegal immigrants, they are following the laws.

Very succinctly stated.
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7 minutes ago, StassneyHorn said:

86% can’t afford gas to a different location.

Do you have a link showing that 86% of the population can't find a store other than a Walgreens to buy eggs?

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8 hours ago, Goofyboy said:


The Republicans killed a bi-partisan border bill because Trump told them to. What the fuck more did you want the Democrats to do?

Win elections. Put winning first. Right now, in 2025, Texas Democrats are discouraging straight white men from seeking nominations in Texas over representational concerns, even in some gerrymandered Republican-held offices, literally telling them that a straight white man will have trouble getting past the primary base. 

Stop organizing to lose Texas. Stop putting money ahead of attention. Stop running tickets from the top down. Stop appealing to groups. Stop chanting litanies of magic words and using insider shorthand like “project 2025” and “opportunity economy” that only the base and The Groups understand.

Put winning first. Contest every race from county commissioner up. Recruit good local candidates in the reddest of red races. Invade their spaces. Go on their podcasts. Be a guest on their shows. Stay on Twitter. Get on Truth. Be interesting. Be funny. Be cool and athletic and popular and good looking. Run the guy/gal who fucks. Only talk about real shit in real people terms. Make fun of questions about fake shit and work the refs.

7 hours ago, bolverk said:

The Dems HAVE BEEN trying to address people's concerns for more than a decade, but the GOP keeps getting in the way, so nothing gets done. Remind me, how the fuck is this the Dems' fault other than they fucking suck at messaging?

Saying Democrats need better messaging is like saying people with AIDS need to dress appropriately for cold weather. 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
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7 hours ago, bolverk said:

First off, Obama wasn't exactly timid about deportation, plus he and the Senate Dems put together a comprehensive immigration reform bill together in the 2012-2013 timeframe, and the House Republicans wouldn't even bring it up for a vote. 

Trump offered nothing but anger, hate, and a stupid wall. The Dems in the House offered a big border bill, but the Republican Senate also refused to bring up a vote. Of course, Biden's recent bill was also killed by the GOP.

The Dems HAVE BEEN trying to address people's concerns for more than a decade, but the GOP keeps getting in the way, so nothing gets done. Remind me, how the fuck is this the Dems' fault other than they fucking suck at messaging?


This is the asymmetry of the GOP.

A coalition of older, white Americans, corporations, billionaires, and religious zealots who want the government to allow them to break the rules for their gain

: pay less in taxes than their share should be, allow them to discriminate, and plunder. The government doesn’t need to do anything other than get out of the way…… and police those who don’t like it.

When people resist, it only goes to reinforce their positions. Protest? Police more. Try to provide services or govern effectively? That requires one to Raise taxes… which gets you voted out. Try to do anything good when in the majority? Well the GOP just needs to delay, distract, and play defense. The clock is on their side.
Their platform is a self sustaining spiral that leads to more republican, tea party, MAGA results.

You can’t get off the ride outside of a major cataclysmic event. 9/11, 2008, and Covid were major events. Not cataclysmic enough. But enough to speed up trends. However they didn’t cause any major changes to our government or the world order. Only destabilized it. Maybe like ww1 they primed the pump so to speak.

No for these trends to fully stop, you need a Great Depression + WW level destabilization. Only then will this ride change. Lots of pain will ensue. Even more pain than we’ve seen. Sad to say. But if history is our guide, we are a little overdue.

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10 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Whether you want to believe it or not, a majority of Americans are not happy with the way dems have addressed the border. Hispanics in particular, especially those who live in border states, resoundingly rejected it. This is the reality, and the national level dems massively misjudged this to their peril. Many post mortems point to this as perhaps the biggest factor in losing what should have been a solid blue bloc

 

eta you don’t have to play to a group’s fears. You do have to acknowledge a group’s fears and show them that you have a plan to address them, not just tell them the fears are unfounded 

Correct. 

Is it messaging that fooled the hispanic voters along the border to  vote for Trump? Or are the concerns real and perhaps it was wrongly downplayed in the media?

The first step is always admitting there's a problem.

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