Trump’s America

[wildcat09 29579]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

If Trump kills the DNC I might have to hand-deliver him a McDonald's Diet Coke.

I don't mean that in an accelerationist or pouty sense, but genuinely excited about the potential to eliminate an apparatus that actively suppresses grassroots organization and distributed decision-making within the larger progressive movement. In the wake of Shitbird's victory, I've listened to about 8 hours of Pod Save America in the background while I do other things and the national Democrats should just shut up and find ways to let these podcasters run their messaging. Not hiring them into campaigns or putting them into the apparatus, but shut the fucking apparatus down and let the messaging get distributed. No central clearinghouse run by the Pelosis of the world and their billionaire friends.

We could do that. It would be great.

It would've been easier for progressives to take over an existing apparatus, like the nazis did with the GOP. But that opportunity has passed. Something new will need to be built and it will need to be able to withstand state oppression the likes of which white people have never experienced before in America. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21551]

7 minutes ago, Woland said:

They don’t have to but they do it anyway to create a facade of democracy (which doesn’t fool anyone).

See Putin. 

[Chad Fuck 18134]

1 minute ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

See Putin. 

Or Orban...

Or Erdogan...

 

[GenXer 3430]

9 minutes ago, AnTiM said:

I mentioned it because we just elected a candidate who had previously stated he would like to be a dictator.

Don’t worry it’ll be fixed so you don’t have to vote again in four years.

 

[Ojo Rojo 2053]

I don't know, I don't go for all of the Chicken Little bullshit.  I don't want to be the frog in the boiling water, but I also don't want to be a panicking alarmist responding to hyperbole and talk without action.

He tried to leverage aid to Ukraine for an investigation into Biden - failed.

He said he was going to build a wall at the southern border and have Mexico pay for it - failed.

He incited an insurrection in an attempt to prevent certification of the 2020 election - failed.

Tried to repeal Obamacare - failed.

We can parse the record to determine what he did do and whether it was good or bad, but most of those things fall into policy differences, not objectively bad, evil or illegal.  I'm not saying I'm hopeful he does good things - I'm not.  I'm not saying he won't try to do bad, evil and illegal things, let alone immoral and unethical.  I'm saying that all or almost all of the worst things he said he's going to do, based on history, will probably fail.

[bad_teammate 13519]

15 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It would've been easier for progressives to take over an existing apparatus, like the nazis did with the GOP. But that opportunity has passed. Something new will need to be built and it will need to be able to withstand state oppression the likes of which white people have never experienced before in America. 

Trump didn't get here because he overtook the RNC from within and schemed his way. No. Trump's rise was grassroots and authentic. It came ENTIRELY from the masses loving Donald and steamrolling an apparatus that fucking HATED Donald.

I know this will be dismissed as the whining of a Bernie Bro, but try to understand 2015/16 because it really matters in thinking about how to build power.

- Hillary had, since 2012, been literally tying the DNC's finances to her re-election. The debate schedule, the number of Democratic candidates in the debates, and even the questions were a co-production of DNC/Hillary 2k16. Talking points and approved messages for campaigns that wanted DNC funding/support were a co-production of DNC/Hillary 2k16. Everything was run to try and clear the field for the candidate chosen by the apparatus and to validate the messaging of that candidate.

- The RNC, gearing up to replace Obama, had their own messaging goals and establishment candidates (not nearly as monolithic and incestuous as the DNC at the time, though). Trump rode the golden escalator and the establishment candidates bristled and objected and the RNC bristled and objected. Then the Grassroots God Emperor fucking stomped their faces in because he said "fuck you" directly to the establishment apparatus and told the people he loved them.

2016 Dem: Apparatus selects chosen candidate ahead of time, humiliating loss
2020 Dem: Apparatus intervenes later to push the selection of an establishment candidate, decent win
2024 Dem: Apparatus doesn't even pretend to give the people a choice, humiliating loss

We don't need the apparatus to make decisions about which candidates or even which messages. We need it to be a means of distributing nationally-raised money to candidates who prove themselves in their own cities/counties/states. That's it.

Edited November 8 by bad_teammate

[Todd Gack 448]

28 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

No. The future can be much, much, much brighter than that. Ignore Trump, he sucks. He's awful. Not just repellant to our aesthetics and values, but he's actually garbage at building anything meaningful.

Look very slightly back in the past to see what we can actually do.

 

The problem with Obama is he eventually fell in line with the Dem party establishment and became a run-of-the-mill corporate democrat.  Likely also a big reason a bunch of Dem candidates coalesced behind Biden to make sure Bernie didn't get the nomination in 2020.

I think by "trump-type" figure, we need someone who is not beholden to the corporate overlords puling the strings in DC.  And who doesn't give a shit about decorum or past demons coming to light.  Ideally someone who can raise a bunch of money off of their previous celebrity status.  Jon Stewart comes to mind right away, but he'd never run IMO.  

[InkaUtexas 26873]

He was able to stop aid to Ukraine.

There are bases and parts of the border wall built. State (well one of them) took it on themselves to do it. Others send personnel. One company has the contracts.

They were 1 door away from the voting members of congress.

Obamacare? He will try again.

Luckily like his business ventures and show he sucks at things. So watch his cabinet and those behind him. First time around he had people who even if odd, tended to believe in the US and rule of law. Bolton is a whacko, but he stood up to him on a few issues. Miley, same thing.

[bad_teammate 13519]

Just now, Todd Gack said:

The problem with Obama is he eventually fell in line with the Dem party establishment and became a run-of-the-mill corporate democrat.  Likely also a big reason a bunch of Dem candidates coalesced behind Biden to make sure Bernie didn't get the nomination in 2020.

Right, of course. Obama became the thing he hated, as many do. And that's OK, because we should be very happy to just cast off our old heroes and bring new ones in, because this isn't about the individual politicians, it's about the people.

[mchookem 16765]

20 minutes ago, G650 said:

Obviously someone who is inspiring and hopeful, not a hateful piece of shit like Turnip.

i mean...the hateful piece of shit swept. im finding it difficult to see how much his message resonated and won and then think about inspiring hope for anything else.

my 'copium' is focused on internalizing/accepting that we really are who the world thought we were. or, at best, given how many people just somehow checked out...we are a people awash in selfish apathy.

im a married, financially secure, childless white genx female living in a beautiful dark blue state. i got mine. selfish apathy seems pretty damn attractive right now.

i do need to find a new hobby besides politics though lol. 

[wildcat09 29579]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Trump didn't get here because he overtook the RNC from within and schemed his way. No. Trump's rise was grassroots and authentic.

I don't mean the RNC. I mean the Republican party, both its actual infrastructure and its brand. Trump never would have won running as an independent. He had to beat the Republican establishment and take over the party before he could realistically compete to win a general election. Progressives doing that to the Democratic party before nazis were allowed to retake power would've been a whole lot fucking easier than what they're going to have to do now. And let's just say I'm not optimistic about their chances, given what a clusterfuck DSA has been. 

[bad_teammate 13519]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

I don't mean the RNC. I mean the Republican party, both its actual infrastructure and its brand. Trump never would have won running as an independent. He had to beat the Republican establishment and take over the party before he could realistically compete to win a general election. Progressives doing that to the Democratic party before nazis were allowed to retake power would've been a whole lot fucking easier than what they're going to have to do now. And let's just say I'm not optimistic about their chances, given what a clusterfuck DSA has been. 

The DNC is not the Democratic Party. (This is going to get pointlessly minute, ugh)

Edited November 8 by bad_teammate

[wildcat09 29579]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

The DNC is not the Democratic Party.

I'm not just talking about the goddamned DNC and you're fucking smart enough to understand what I am talking about.

[G650 14437]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Trump didn't get here because he overtook the RNC from within and schemed his way. No. Trump's rise was grassroots and authentic. It came ENTIRELY from the masses loving Donald and steamrolling an apparatus that fucking HATED Donald.

I know this will be dismissed as the whining of a Bernie Bro, but try to understand 2015/16 because it really matters in thinking about how to build power.

- Hillary had, since 2012, been literally tying the DNC's finances to her re-election. The debate schedule, the number of Democratic candidates in the debates, and even the questions were a co-production of DNC/Hillary 2k16. Talking points and approved messages for campaigns that wanted DNC funding/support were a co-production of DNC/Hillary 2k16. Everything was run to try and clear the field for the candidate chosen by the apparatus and to validate the messaging of that candidate.

- The RNC, gearing up to replace Obama, had their own messaging goals and establishment candidates (not nearly as monolithic and incestuous as the DNC at the time, though). Trump rode the golden escalator and the establishment candidates bristled and objected and the RNC bristled and objected. Then the Grassroots God Emperor fucking stomped their faces in because he said "fuck you" directly to the establishment apparatus and told the people he loved them.

2016 Dem: Apparatus selects chosen candidate ahead of time, humiliating loss
2020 Dem: Apparatus intervenes later to push the selection of an establishment candidate, decent win
2024 Dem: Apparatus doesn't even pretend to give the people a choice, humiliating loss

We don't need the apparatus to make decisions about which candidates or even which messages. We need it to be a means of distributing nationally-raised money to candidates who prove themselves in their own cities/counties/states. That's it.

Accurate

[Ojo Rojo 2053]

14 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

He was able to stop aid to Ukraine.

There are bases and parts of the border wall built. State (well one of them) took it on themselves to do it. Others send personnel. One company has the contracts.

They were 1 door away from the voting members of congress.

Obamacare? He will try again.

Luckily like his business ventures and show he sucks at things. So watch his cabinet and those behind him. First time around he had people who even if odd, tended to believe in the US and rule of law. Bolton is a whacko, but he stood up to him on a few issues. Miley, same thing.

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

[InkaUtexas 26873]

2 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

OK, so he threw horseshoes, this time they will be hand grenades.

[hookem2010 2700]

3 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

Last time, there were at least some competent people smacking his arm while he threw the horseshoes to decrease his success. Now, they'll be nudging them around the post

[Frank Drebin 5834]

15 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The DNC is not the Democratic Party. (This is going to get pointlessly minute, ugh)

When your coalition is based on intersectionality and victim status, eventually it breaks because they'll just get into a pissing contest about who's the biggest victim in the room.  See the move of the Latinx to the GOP.

[TwiceHorn 32077]

1 hour ago, South Austin said:

That's an aspect I'll be watching/dreading.  Of course Trump knew about Project 2025, and his claim he didn't is another obvious line of bullshit on the campaign when he started to understand it could be a liability (just like a national abortion ban, IVF, etc.). 

But now that he's elected, will Trump just do what Trump wants to do and appoint his own folks over whomever The Heritage Foundation may want to handpick?  Or is he feeble enough/giving less fucks and will put them in place early and let them do their thing?

Yeah I didn't mean to insinuate that Trump is not with P2025.  But P2025 is too ideological and insufficiently personal for Trump.  His idiocy and fragility may exceed his useful idiocy for the P2025 types.

[hookem2010 2700]

It seems like best case scenario, a bunch of competing interests who are more than willing to flatter Trump into having their wishes granted, will cancel each other out to some degree. Because you know Trump himself doesn't give much of a shit about anything.

[bad_teammate 13519]

4 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

When your coalition is based on intersectionality and victim status, eventually it breaks because they'll just get into a pissing contest about who's the biggest victim in the room.  See the move of the Latinx to the GOP.

[hookem2010 2700]

Maybe a bunch of D leaning celebrities should meet with him and praise him for his Palmeresque dick in order to advance some non-evil policy positions?

[Frank Drebin 5834]

1 minute ago, hookem2010 said:

Maybe a bunch of D leaning celebrities should meet with him and praise him for his Palmeresque dick in order to advance some non-evil policy positions?

How much did cash did Kamala waste on dragging celebrities around to her rallies?

[Incredulity 11876]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

[linux 1787]

6 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

How much did cash did Kamala waste on dragging celebrities around to her rallies?

Trump pardoned some dude or duddette he never heard of before because Kim Kardashian went to meet him in the oval office, it is a viable strategy, his north star has always  been ego stroking by the rich and famous.

Edited November 8 by linux

[hookem2010 2700]

14 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

How much did cash did Kamala waste on dragging celebrities around to her rallies?

But that's not what I'm proposing. I'm suggesting a stupid plan to influence a stupid man because we live in a stupid timeline.

[Pancho 46303]

 

[hobbes2702 13472]

2 minutes ago, Pancho said:

 

That’s crazy stuff tbh.

[4th&Five 42004]

5 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

That’s crazy stuff tbh.

tip of the iceberg, i'm sure.

[C-Man 27779]

58 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

I don't know, I don't go for all of the Chicken Little bullshit.  I don't want to be the frog in the boiling water, but I also don't want to be a panicking alarmist responding to hyperbole and talk without action.

He tried to leverage aid to Ukraine for an investigation into Biden - failed.

He said he was going to build a wall at the southern border and have Mexico pay for it - failed.

He incited an insurrection in an attempt to prevent certification of the 2020 election - failed.

Tried to repeal Obamacare - failed.

We can parse the record to determine what he did do and whether it was good or bad, but most of those things fall into policy differences, not objectively bad, evil or illegal.  I'm not saying I'm hopeful he does good things - I'm not.  I'm not saying he won't try to do bad, evil and illegal things, let alone immoral and unethical.  I'm saying that all or almost all of the worst things he said he's going to do, based on history, will probably fail.

This all makes sense -- but I'm also facing the fact that my life would be miserable if I expend too much energy worrying about this shit during the entirety of Trump 2.0. But I can't help the nagging feeling that this one will just be worse. He's got nothing to lose and he's removed all guardrails. He doesn't have to sweat re-election. He can leave in 2028 if he wants or he can probably convince enough people to let him hang around until he's dead or wants to walk away from the White House.

It's sad that we're rooting for Ugly American Incompetence at this point. Part of me wants me to watch things burn while I post @Pancho's patented "Oprah/See?" GIF. But then I remember I have a 19-year-old daughter who texted me on Wednesday asking about getting birth control that lasts years, not days or months. I want the people that brought this fucking nightmare back to really fucking feel the pain this time. And I'm not sorry for that at all. Burn motherfucker, burn.

[linux 1787]

I always said I was never worried about Ukraine, they destroyed almost the entire stockpile of Russian heavy equipment in storage, a lot of Open info videos showing that almost nothing is left in stock, just on the field already.

Peace was coming soon specially if they kept taking Russian territory to barter with.

[G650 14437]

3 minutes ago, C-Man said:

But then I remember I have a 19-year-old daughter who texted me on Wednesday asking about getting birth control that lasts years, not days or months

IUD

[C-Man 27779]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

IUD

That was the exact discussion. She wants to get something in the event that Trump's Goon Squad goes after contraceptives. She's going to see her doctor over Thanksgiving break to see what option would be best for her.

[InkaUtexas 26873]

4 minutes ago, linux said:

I always said I was never worried about Ukraine, they destroyed almost the entire stockpile of Russian heavy equipment in storage, a lot of Open info videos showing that almost nothing is left in stock, just on the field already.

Peace was coming soon specially if they kept taking Russian territory to barter with.

Define peace. Was talking to a fellow Surlyite and reminded him what I think Trump wants is his Chamberlain moment. That worked out well.

The name of trumps book? The art of the deal.

[Underdog 29182]

Chastity belt. 

[InkaUtexas 26873]

Just now, Underdog said:

Chastity belt. 

I saw her at the Yellow Rose in her heyday.

[G650 14437]

1 minute ago, C-Man said:

That was the exact discussion. She wants to get something in the event that Trump's Goon Squad goes after contraceptives. She's going to see her doctor over Thanksgiving break to see what option would be best for her.

That's what my wife has used for years, but obviously every circumstance is different.

[C-Man 27779]

Just now, Underdog said:

Chastity belt. 

Yep -- she's at a legacy SEC school so she is subjected to some horrid politics. She should just go '4B' and lock that shit down.

[linux 1787]

5 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Define peace. Was talking to a fellow Surlyite and reminded him what I think Trump wants is his Chamberlain moment. That worked out well.

The name of trumps book? The art of the deal.

We are long past that though, Trump would have wanted peace that meant "surrender territory without a fight" level of appeasement the current reality that was going to hit us one day or another is that Ukraine-Russia war will be a ceasefire (trump or no trump), Russia can't take territory any more, they depleted all of their piercing materiel even if all drones ceased to exist.

Edited November 8 by linux

[wildcat09 29579]

19 minutes ago, Pancho said:

 

There's something very darkly funny about all of the more general conspiracy theories (i.e. how government is just for the oligarchs) are very openly coming to pass, and it's being implemented and cheered on by those very same conspiracy theorists.

[InkaUtexas 26873]

Just now, linux said:

We are long past that though, Trump would have wanted peace that meant "surrender territory without a fight level of appeasement" the current reality that was going to hit us one day or another is that Ukraine-Russia war will be a ceasefire (trump or no trump), Russia can't take territory any more, they depleted all of their piercing materiel even if all drones ceased to exist.

Yes they can. What holds them at bay is not drones. Those are just sexy and we see the videos. It is 155mm artillery. That plant in Pennsylvania can be shut down with the letter from 1 contracting officer.

[linux 1787]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

There's something very darkly funny about all of the more general conspiracy theories (i.e. how government is just for the oligarchs) are very openly coming to pass, and it's being implemented and cheered on by those very same conspiracy theorists.

They really really are idiots, they hate billionaires, but not those guys they are one of us!

Shit is lost, the experiment is dead, populism 101 screw high level politics we need populist candidates like AMLO that fucker got his woman candidate elected. Republicans are never coming back to civility, we need to train our own side to understand and really internalize that victory means all, screw our high horses.

[linux 1787]

5 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yes they can. What holds them at bay is not drones. Those are just sexy and we see the videos. It is 155mm artillery. That plant in Pennsylvania can be shut down with the letter from 1 contracting officer.

I agree that it is a combination of things, but drones eliminating the fog of war is the single biggest change this war made to the history of warfare, both sides knows what the other is doing at all times, and when they don't (kursk incursion) is because they were not studying the area with drones.

[mchookem 16765]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

There's something very darkly funny about all of the more general conspiracy theories (i.e. how government is just for the oligarchs) are very openly coming to pass, and it's being implemented and cheered on by those very same conspiracy theorists.

i feel like this gif is just going to be ubiquitous

we got Gritty from the last election, imma should figure out how to make a reaction from this one lol

[SimonBolivar 11064]

5 minutes ago, linux said:

we need populist candidates like AMLO 

The last thing that DC needs is another airport.

[956 Worldwide 35592]

15 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

There's something very darkly funny about all of the more general conspiracy theories (i.e. how government is just for the oligarchs) are very openly coming to pass, and it's being implemented and cheered on by those very same conspiracy theorists.

I’m sorry I can’t smirk, I’m just having to think of the most courageous leader of the 21st century being forced to negotiate the future of his people with Elon Musk. 

5 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

The last thing that DC needs is another airport.

“We need to have Mexican-style leftist politics here” is . . . a take. 

[Frank Drebin 5834]

I don't think billions for Ukraine is in the Department of Government Efficiency's long term plans.

[956 Worldwide 35592]

See, it’s funny because it means millions of good people losing their future to Vladimir Putin. 
 

 

[Goredho 17654]

38 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Trump didn't get here because he overtook the RNC from within and schemed his way. No. Trump's rise was grassroots and authentic. It came ENTIRELY from the masses loving Donald and steamrolling an apparatus that fucking HATED Donald.

I know this will be dismissed as the whining of a Bernie Bro, but try to understand 2015/16 because it really matters in thinking about how to build power.

- Hillary had, since 2012, been literally tying the DNC's finances to her re-election. The debate schedule, the number of Democratic candidates in the debates, and even the questions were a co-production of DNC/Hillary 2k16. Talking points and approved messages for campaigns that wanted DNC funding/support were a co-production of DNC/Hillary 2k16. Everything was run to try and clear the field for the candidate chosen by the apparatus and to validate the messaging of that candidate.

- The RNC, gearing up to replace Obama, had their own messaging goals and establishment candidates (not nearly as monolithic and incestuous as the DNC at the time, though). Trump rode the golden escalator and the establishment candidates bristled and objected and the RNC bristled and objected. Then the Grassroots God Emperor fucking stomped their faces in because he said "fuck you" directly to the establishment apparatus and told the people he loved them.

2016 Dem: Apparatus selects chosen candidate ahead of time, humiliating loss
2020 Dem: Apparatus intervenes later to push the selection of an establishment candidate, decent win
2024 Dem: Apparatus doesn't even pretend to give the people a choice, humiliating loss

We don't need the apparatus to make decisions about which candidates or even which messages. We need it to be a means of distributing nationally-raised money to candidates who prove themselves in their own cities/counties/states. That's it.

This is a really good post.  Bottom line, democrats need to quit focusing on Trump and Republicans and focus on themselves and voters.  All the project 2025 stuff, yeah, its scary.  But they are hypothetical problems that have not yet manifested.  And you are trying to get people to act on them when they have real, tangible financial problems today.  It truly was the economy, stupid.

Just like covid economic impacts, inflation wasn't evenly distributed or felt.  Living in a rural area, I can attest that prices went up way more in the shitty grocery store in our nearest town (population 1,006) than they did in a Safeway in Denver.  There are just more logistics involved in getting goods to the shitty rural grocer in the middle of a food desert, and each hop on the way, an inflationary bump was tacked on to what the consumer ultimately paid.  I still make a city salary, I didn't feel that much of a pinch.  But people around here who are trying to make a living locally, it has been a time of famine.

Dems need to focus on connecting to the voting masses and communicating with them, especially those that are moving away from the party.  They need to listen more than they talk.  They need to be at least as educable as they want to educate. Then they need to work with those voters to form policies to make their lives better.  Not theoretically better according to traditional government statistics and reports.  They need different metrics that reflect the pain being felt by different demographics.  They need metrics not skewed by being inclusive of people like us who aren't feeling the pain and who will ultimately be fine either way.

What was really on the ballot was traditional, mainstream governance vs radical, unknown change, and voters overwhelmingly chose radical, unknown change.   Because their lives have continued to get shittier with traditional, mainstream governance.  So democrats trying to sell fear of the opponent and hope through re-election didn't resonate as much as Trump just saying, "America has gone to hell."  HIs message aligned more with their daily experience.  So I think for many, it came down to, "Do I vote for this switcheroo preaching a feel good kumbaya message that doesn't align with the reality I am experiencing?  Or do I vote for this asshole who at least accurately describes the reality I am experiencing and who says he'll fix it?"

Those are not nazis, misogynists, bigots or racists.  Those are people struggling to make ends meet and afford the lifestyle they had pre-pandemic.  Maybe Trump gives them all the dildo of consequences, and if he does, they will grow disillusioned with him just as they did both parties in their mainstream form.  Then maybe the message of MAGA doom will resonate with them.  But I think that's generally a losing proposition.  I mean, there is no guarantee that Trump fucks them over, or that they are able to connect the dots to see who is fucking them and why.  Dems have lost the trust and faith of the common man, and its going to take a radical change within the party to win that back.

The silver lining is actually Trump himself.  If he can takeover and reimagine the Republican party in a a populist fashion, then someone can do it to the Democratic party.  But it aint going to come about through the usual suspects conducting political business as usual.

[linux 1787]

15 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’m sorry I can’t smirk, I’m just having to think of the most courageous leader of the 21st century being forced to negotiate the future of his people with Elon Musk. 

“We need to have Mexican-style leftist politics here” is . . . a take. 

We are losing buddy, like really fucking badly losing, Kamala Harris in 2012 is a slam dunk, in 2024 she is a horrific failure, we need to get off the high horse, it is killing us. Bernie got the blame in 2016, but he was a good foot soldier? maybe he should have burned the party to the ground in 2016 if he was also getting the blame, we could have actually put a candidate in 2020 that would fight for us, instead of an useless "old way" man. People don't understand that the old way is over, the right is not abandoning extremism and they want to stage a permanent dictatorship, the opportunity economy idea while sound was a massive massive dud, people wanted relief and they wanted it now.