Trump’s America

[David Dennison 18655]

1 hour ago, Frank Drebin said:

When your coalition is based on intersectionality and victim status, eventually it breaks because they'll just get into a pissing contest about who's the biggest victim in the room.  See the move of the Latinx to the GOP.

This applies to the right, too, in the form of grievance politics.

[bluto 4886]

Word around Abbott campfire that Tx is gonna need to find a new AG in the next few mos. 

[mchookem 16206]

silver lining for Texas! lol

[David Dennison 18655]

3 minutes ago, bluto said:

Word around Abbott campfire that Tx is gonna need to find a new AG in the next few mos. 

Good.

[G650 14100]

28 minutes ago, Goredho said:

This is a really good post.  Bottom line, democrats need to quit focusing on Trump and Republicans and focus on themselves and voters.  All the project 2025 stuff, yeah, its scary.  But they are hypothetical problems that have not yet manifested.  And you are trying to get people to act on them when they have real, tangible financial problems today.  It truly was the economy, stupid.

Just like covid economic impacts, inflation wasn't evenly distributed or felt.  Living in a rural area, I can attest that prices went up way more in the shitty grocery store in our nearest town (population 1,006) than they did in a Safeway in Denver.  There are just more logistics involved in getting goods to the shitty rural grocer in the middle of a food desert, and each hop on the way, an inflationary bump was tacked on to what the consumer ultimately paid.  I still make a city salary, I didn't feel that much of a pinch.  But people around here who are trying to make a living locally, it has been a time of famine.

Dems need to focus on connecting to the voting masses and communicating with them, especially those that are moving away from the party.  They need to listen more than they talk.  They need to be at least as educable as they want to educate. Then they need to work with those voters to form policies to make their lives better.  Not theoretically better according to traditional government statistics and reports.  They need different metrics that reflect the pain being felt by different demographics.  They need metrics not skewed by being inclusive of people like us who aren't feeling the pain and who will ultimately be fine either way.

What was really on the ballot was traditional, mainstream governance vs radical, unknown change, and voters overwhelmingly chose radical, unknown change.   Because their lives have continued to get shittier with traditional, mainstream governance.  So democrats trying to sell fear of the opponent and hope through re-election didn't resonate as much as Trump just saying, "America has gone to hell."  HIs message aligned more with their daily experience.  So I think for many, it came down to, "Do I vote for this switcheroo preaching a feel good kumbaya message that doesn't align with the reality I am experiencing?  Or do I vote for this asshole who at least accurately describes the reality I am experiencing and who says he'll fix it?"

Those are not nazis, misogynists, bigots or racists.  Those are people struggling to make ends meet and afford the lifestyle they had pre-pandemic.  Maybe Trump gives them all the dildo of consequences, and if he does, they will grow disillusioned with him just as they did both parties in their mainstream form.  Then maybe the message of MAGA doom will resonate with them.  But I think that's generally a losing proposition.  I mean, there is no guarantee that Trump fucks them over, or that they are able to connect the dots to see who is fucking them and why.  Dems have lost the trust and faith of the common man, and its going to take a radical change within the party to win that back.

The silver lining is actually Trump himself.  If he can takeover and reimagine the Republican party in a a populist fashion, then someone can do it to the Democratic party.  But it aint going to come about through the usual suspects conducting political business as usual.

 

I agree with part of this, and appreciate the thoughtful post (most of yours usually are). The fact that Democrats need to listen is 100% correct. And your last sentence is absolutely spot on.

 

The middle, I vary on the items from somewhat to absolute over the top vehement disagreement. I don't know if you saw it, but I quoted in another thread a post I made on another board almost 10 years ago, and it says the exact same thing. People have never had it so good. Period. This is always the go to charge obviously, Democrats tell people this, and they get mad and don't vote for them. I totally agree with supposition that by the way. But I'm not a democrat running for office and I don't need anyone's vote, so I am happy to point this out. People are having to stretch money a teeny bit further, so you toss out any sense remaining of the American ideal? Considering having to make marginally tougher financial choices than 2019 still puts someone lightyears ahead of anyone, and I mean, anyone, living in say 1995. I'm just not going to agree with them, and my loyalty to them as a citizen has died. I'm not celebrating this, in fact I find it quite sad, but it's the truth. The social compact has been severed. Mainstream US governance has delivered the most prosperous and comfortable set of humans that has ever graced our planet. It's literal insanity to throw it away, and all of us are going to pay the price. And all over some nebulous emotional impulse that says they aren't doing as well as they should, which is by definition impossible to attain, there is literally nothing that anyone could do to change the way the feel because the sickness is inside them. Trump is unequivocally not describing their reality, he is describing the unreality they have created in their minds.

[bluto 4886]

8 minutes ago, mchookem said:

silver lining for Texas! lol

 

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Good.

Not to go brisket but there’s a 0% chance his replacement is an improvement. 

[SimonBolivar 10913]

Just now, bluto said:

 

Not to go brisket but there’s a 0% chance his replacement is an improvement. 

Also does this mean that our current AG is going to have a bigger role nationally? That's not a good thing.

[bluto 4886]

1 minute ago, SimonBolivar said:

Also does this mean that our current AG is going to have a bigger role nationally? That's not a good thing.

Hence why I posted in this thread

[InkaUtexas 25506]

Paxton goes AG, Federal forces on the border. Bye to any non-DOD movement into cities, etc.

 

[royiv 9154]

8 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Also does this mean that our current AG is going to have a bigger role nationally? That's not a good thing.

Disagree. Subjecting the rest of the country to his corruption is going to be a seriously satisfying FAAFO moment for me.

[nbmishoid 938]

They wanted a fetid dream and they want it now.  They want impossibility and they want it now.  
 

I am in high pain all day and night.  These people got nothing on me.  I didn’t vote to have my pain removed.  It was to help others.  
 

That notion, to help others, has gone down the drain for a majority of our society. 

Edited November 8 by nbmishoid

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2659]

Gee, wish that federal grand jury would get going on Paxton's criming lol 

[Goredho 17346]

20 minutes ago, G650 said:

People have never had it so good. Period. This is always the go to charge obviously, Democrats tell people this, and they get mad and don't vote for them. I totally agree with supposition that by the way. But I'm not a democrat running for office and I don't need anyone's vote, so I am happy to point this out. People are having to stretch money a teeny bit further, so you toss out any sense remaining of the American ideal? Considering having to make marginally tougher financial choices than 2019 still puts someone lightyears ahead of anyone, and I mean, anyone, living in say 1995. I'm just not going to agree with them, and my loyalty to them as a citizen has died. I'm not celebrating this, in fact I find it quite sad, but it's the truth. The social compact has been severed. Mainstream US governance has delivered the most prosperous and comfortable set of humans that has ever graced our planet. It's literal insanity to throw it away, and all of us are going to pay the price. And all over some nebulous emotional impulse that says they aren't doing as well as they should, which is by definition impossible to attain, there is literally nothing that anyone could do to change the way the feel because the sickness is inside them. Trump is unequivocally not describing their reality, he is describing the unreality they have created in their minds.

Yeah, this is a big part of the problem.  People like you (and I) want to tell people how they should feel about the reality they are living.  I am not saying Biden/Harris caused their problems or Trump is going to fix their problems, but you are saying, "Yeah, they don't have a problem."  I over the top vehemently disagree with that position.  I see a very different daily life experience for many, many people than what you describe. Not for the lawyers, doctors, engineers and other relatively wealthy professionals that dominate the conversations here.  But for the person trying to make it in a small town with a small business.  You can say their lives are great all you want, but... it's just not for a lot of people.  I have tangible, first hand experience witnessing a reality different than what you choose to believe in.  Anyway, I am not trying to convince you, you are fine to preserve your opinion, but sitting in a house on the hill and looking down at everyone in the valley below and saying they've never had it so good is a HUGE part of the problem.

If you are truly interested in understanding what's going on in this country, I would encourage you to drive to a small, economically depressed town and going to the locals coffee shop.  Get a coffee, be quiet and still, and just listen to the conversations around you.

[G650 14100]

Just now, Goredho said:

Yeah, this is a big part of the problem.  People like you (and I) want to tell people how they should feel about the reality they are living.  I am not saying Biden/Harris caused their problems or Trump is going to fix their problems, but you are saying, "Yeah, they don't have a problem."  I over the top vehemently disagree with that position.  I see a very different daily life experience for many, many people than what you describe. Not for the lawyers, doctors, engineers and other relatively wealthy professionals that dominate the conversations here.  But for the person trying to make it in a small town with a small business.  You can say their lives are great all you want, but... it's just not for a lot of people.  I have tangible, first hand experience witnessing a reality different than what you choose to believe in.  Anyway, I am not trying to convince you, you are fine to preserve your opinion, but sitting in a house on the hill and looking down at everyone in the valley below and saying they've never had it so good is a HUGE part of the problem.

If you are truly interested in understanding what's going on in this country, I would encourage you to drive to a small, economically depressed town and going to the locals coffee shop.  Get a coffee, be quiet and still, and just listen to the conversations around you.

You know I'm a lifelong construction worker right? I spend all day every day with guys scraping by, not blue collar, but no collar work.

 

People's notions of mansplaining "The country " crack me up. I am closer to it than pretty much single other poster here.

 

At any rate, I'm on the run, but you deserve a more complete response which I will definitely return to

 

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

It is both true that Americans have never had it so good in general and that this fact should never be wielded as a political cudgel. There's not actually a disagreement there.

[Goredho 17346]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

You know I'm a lifelong construction worker right? I spend all day every day with guys scraping by, not blue collar, but no collar work.

 

People's notions of mansplaining "The country " crack me up. I am closer to it than pretty much single other poster here.

 

At any rate, I'm on the run, but you deserve a more complete response which I will definitely return to

 

 

:shrugs:  I guess your experiences are very different from mine.  As for my "mansplaining", I don't know how what I am saying from my own observations is any different from what you are saying from your observations.  At any rate, you can tell me how many people are living better than ever, but that does not align with what I personally witness in what is essentially a rural white ghetto.  It does align with the lives of people in my professional circles, and the people I know back in urban areas with relatively healthy economies.   So I'll have to continue to trust my own direct observations vs your intardnet posts.  Feel free to respond to my posts or not, I don't really care.  One thing this election cycle certainly shows is that Surly is a really poor lens through which to keep tabs on and understand the broader world.

[956 Worldwide 34428]

59 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

I agree with part of this, and appreciate the thoughtful post (most of yours usually are). The fact that Democrats need to listen is 100% correct. And your last sentence is absolutely spot on.

 

The middle, I vary on the items from somewhat to absolute over the top vehement disagreement. I don't know if you saw it, but I quoted in another thread a post I made on another board almost 10 years ago, and it says the exact same thing. People have never had it so good. Period. This is always the go to charge obviously, Democrats tell people this, and they get mad and don't vote for them. I totally agree with supposition that by the way. But I'm not a democrat running for office and I don't need anyone's vote, so I am happy to point this out. People are having to stretch money a teeny bit further, so you toss out any sense remaining of the American ideal? Considering having to make marginally tougher financial choices than 2019 still puts someone lightyears ahead of anyone, and I mean, anyone, living in say 1995. I'm just not going to agree with them, and my loyalty to them as a citizen has died. I'm not celebrating this, in fact I find it quite sad, but it's the truth. The social compact has been severed. Mainstream US governance has delivered the most prosperous and comfortable set of humans that has ever graced our planet. It's literal insanity to throw it away, and all of us are going to pay the price. And all over some nebulous emotional impulse that says they aren't doing as well as they should, which is by definition impossible to attain, there is literally nothing that anyone could do to change the way the feel because the sickness is inside them. Trump is unequivocally not describing their reality, he is describing the unreality they have created in their minds.

This is a great post and touches firmly on why “let’s just do our own populism” is not only bad for the country but ultimately bad for electoral politics. 
 

Problem one is that you can’t out-pander a panderer or out bullshit a  bullshitter. Starting out down the populist road of exploiting vibes and offering promises just puts you on a race to the bottom where your opponent has no floor at all.  
 

Second is that it puts you into a recursive loop of ever more irresponsible veering into immoral and dangerous policies.  All over the world the experiment has been run, but there’s no way to run as a populist then course correct to good governance.  You eventually have to deliver on your irresponsible and impossible promises and then you’re stuck upping the ante with more irresponsibility or losing to the less scrupulous opponent who will up the ante by either promising more or offering to hurt the people standing in the way.  
 

It has just a miserable track record of success when tried. It offers no pressure valve, because trying to course correct literally entails going against “the people.” 

[nbmishoid 938]

The Killeen white ghetto that my parents raised 5 kids in was also the greatest time of their lives.   My dad, soldier come postman, took a night job at a filling station when college loomed.  My mom got a minimum wage job at the paper.  Our house was 1100 sf.

I, my sisters, and our parents knew this life very well.  We appreciated it, because that is what the culture nudged us to do.

Folks in similar circumstances now are very unsatisfied.   No doubt today’s information deluge kicks them down that road.  Yet our reactions to these circumstances remain always a choice.

Which choice is better?  To appreciate life, as a default world view, or to see life as grievance, in one form or another.

[wood 11128]

nsiap ... So this is a thing now.

😡

Racist texts about slaves and ‘picking cotton’ sent to Black people as state AGs, colleges and police probe their origins   https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/07/us/racist-text-messages-post-election/index.html

[Frank Drebin 5621]

Probably from the same dude who painted racist graffiti on Lebron's Brentwood mansion.

[bad_teammate 13132]

38 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is a great post and touches firmly on why “let’s just do our own populism” is not only bad for the country but ultimately bad for electoral politics. 

Problem one is that you can’t out-pander a panderer or out bullshit a  bullshitter. Starting out down the populist road of exploiting vibes and offering promises just puts you on a race to the bottom where your opponent has no floor at all.  

Second is that it puts you into a recursive loop of ever more irresponsible veering into immoral and dangerous policies.  All over the world the experiment has been run, but there’s no way to run as a populist then course correct to good governance.  You eventually have to deliver on your irresponsible and impossible promises and then you’re stuck upping the ante with more irresponsibility or losing to the less scrupulous opponent who will up the ante by either promising more or offering to hurt the people standing in the way.  

It has just a miserable track record of success when tried. It offers no pressure valve, because trying to course correct literally entails going against “the people.” 

This is a great example of just saying a lot of words without saying anything. What are you even talking about? What do you think "populism" is?

[David Dennison 18655]

2 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

I don't think billions for Ukraine is in the Department of Government Efficiency's long term plans.

What about billions for private space exploration companies?

[TexArcher 37508]

Iran already plotting to kill him for us, ushering in a new era of detente?

[TwiceHorn 31268]

5 hours ago, G650 said:

While I agree with you for the most part, I do doubt that their competency has increased any meaningful amount. Being just the true believers now, I suspect it's probably going to regress a bit.

That would literally be an example of what I'm talking about.

Yeah, the worry here is that he lets enough P2025 people into the tent.  I'm not sure they can keep him happy and stay on the job, or even pass the personal loyalty test, but they can probably do a good bit of what they intend to do.

[tx 3 putt 76345]

excellent use of the cia resources …

 

[Pancho 44466]

Those claims of election fraud sure did disappear…

[Goofyboy 3199]

For those folks on Reddit- r/LeopardsAteMyFace is providing an interesting look at the find out part of FAFO.

[Sbbruin 21720]

10 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

For those folks on Reddit- r/LeopardsAteMyFace is providing an interesting look at the find out part of FAFO.

Was just checking that out.  

[956 Worldwide 34428]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

This is a great example of just saying a lot of words without saying anything. What are you even talking about? What do you think "populism" is?

Populism is fundamentally the distillation of politics to confrontation between two groups:  “the people” and “the elites.” The first group is virtuous and has legitimate interests; the second is in opposition and works against the interests of the legitimate group.  It rejects pluralism, where different overlapping groups with recognized interests seek to balance via compromise and consensus in favor of winner take all politics.  Interests do not merely compete or differ; they can only conflict.  Right and left populists define “the people” and “the elites” differently but the division is what is key. 

The second element is political leadership that positions itself not as the representative of all of the people, or constituents, or a polity; but as the embodiment of “the people” and their will which by necessity is recursively determined by the political leadership when it comes to discrete policy decisions. 
 

Downstream of those two streams are a lot of things: irresponsible rabble rousing rhetoric, blinkered short-term reactive decision-making, the constant shifting of in-group and out-group definitions, appeals to grievance, and delegitimization to demonization of political opponents.  
 

 

Edited November 8 by 956 Worldwide

[bad_teammate 13132]

Populism and pluralism are not in necessary conflict, especially when the population in question is massive and diverse, as ours is. All I'm seeing is extremely vague fear-mongering. What, specifically, is your worry when someone advocates a larger populism within the Democratic party? Death camps for Christians? Slightly higher taxation on billionaires?

If what you're interested in here is just kind of a higher level discussion of populism and pluralism in a non-specific sense that isn't directly applied to the 202x political situation in America then that's not really of any interest at all to me.

[Goofyboy 3199]

Not sure if this should go here or we should start a broken promises thread …

First failure of Trump’s president elect - he’s failed to stop the Ukraine war. He said he would stop it in the first 24hrs. It is still going.

[nbmishoid 938]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Populism and pluralism are not in necessary conflict, especially when the population in question is massive and diverse, as ours is. All I'm seeing is extremely vague fear-mongering. What, specifically, is your worry when someone advocates a larger populism within the Democratic party? Death camps for Christians? Slightly higher taxation on billionaires?

If what you're interested in here is just kind of a higher level discussion of populism and pluralism in a non-specific sense that isn't directly applied to the 202x political situation in America then that's not really of any interest at all to me.

I hear you, BT.  But, lots of us don’t yet have a handle on the ontology etc of populism, and a few educational posts sure help me.  Now, what is your application to our political situation in 202x?

[956 Worldwide 34428]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Populism and pluralism are not in necessary conflict, especially when the population in question is massive and diverse, as ours is. All I'm seeing is extremely vague fear-mongering. What, specifically, is your worry when someone advocates a larger populism within the Democratic party? Death camps for Christians? Slightly higher taxation on billionaires?

If what you're interested in here is just kind of a higher level discussion of populism and pluralism in a non-specific sense that isn't directly applied to the 202x political situation in America then that's not really of any interest at all to me.

A blind commitment to ruinous economic policies that leave everyone worse and an open door for real fascists is the favored leftist populist end-point.

[bad_teammate 13132]

3 minutes ago, nbmishoid said:

Now, what is your application to our political situation in 202x?

In terms of how to perform it for voters: Bernie Sanders on Joe Rogan

I mean that both specifically (watch/listen so you can hear what 202x American populism can sound like) and generally (replace "Bernie Sanders" with "a Democrat whose core desire is to advocate for the economic betterment of the poor and working classes while talking like a non-robot (like Biden/Trump and unlike Harris/Vance)" and replace "Joe Rogan" with "any major platform where millions and millions of reachable voters will pay attention regardless of whether or not that venue is socially acceptable").

I am someone who believes there should not be such a thing as a billionaire, but I don't even care about having any political party or politician advocate for what I believe. 

In terms of a policy: "Every American should have free healthcare"

Not access to preferred advantage plan shopping opportunities via a friendly and easy-to-use app. You're alive in America and you need a thing, you get the thing.

When health insurance industry stooges step in to try and design some laughable plan that involves pre-tax income withholdings you, as the politicians, point at those corporations and you name them and you tell the people that those corporations, by name, are OK with them dying so they can make profit.

And that's important because the people already KNOW these private health insurance corporations are OK with them dying so long as they can stand in the middle and siphon off mountains of cash. You're not telling them anything they don't already experience and know. We, as Americans, live it every single day and DC actively encourages it.

So be the guy who will speak the truth on behalf of the people in the face of power.

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

25 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

A blind commitment to ruinous economic policies that leave everyone worse and an open door for real fascists is the favored leftist populist end-point.

I've been disconnected from this whole thing for so long I either forgot your whole deal or this is actually new to me. Thanks for educating me.

[G650 14100]

3 hours ago, Goredho said:

:shrugs:  I guess your experiences are very different from mine.  As for my "mansplaining", I don't know how what I am saying from my own observations is any different from what you are saying from your observations.  At any rate, you can tell me how many people are living better than ever, but that does not align with what I personally witness in what is essentially a rural white ghetto.  It does align with the lives of people in my professional circles, and the people I know back in urban areas with relatively healthy economies.   So I'll have to continue to trust my own direct observations vs your intardnet posts.  Feel free to respond to my posts or not, I don't really care.  One thing this election cycle certainly shows is that Surly is a really poor lens through which to keep tabs on and understand the broader world.

Well, you know what, nevermind then. I did respect you quite a lot, probably as much as any poster here, but you can basically go fuck yourself if you want to say shit like intardnet to me. You have no idea what I know or experience, and if you just want to be dismissive knock yourself out.

[bad_teammate 13132]

We are all salty as fuck right now lol

[956 Worldwide 34428]

11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I've been disconnected from this whole thing for so long I either forgot your whole deal or this is actually new to me. Thanks for educating me.

I mean, what’s your deal? I don’t think Latin American style populism was a good solution and said so.  You asked why I don’t want it and said I said why.
 

You’ve said that “populism is Bernie Sanders and that’s the solution.”  And fair enough, I don’t begrudge your fondness for the guy, although a twice-failed primary candidate maybe isn’t the model for winning elections. 

Edited November 8 by 956 Worldwide

[G650 14100]

I'm actually pretty chill. I just am at the point where niceties don't matter anymore, raw truth is pretty much all I'm good for. It sucks as I considered goredho one of my favorite dudes here for a multitude of reasons, but if he just wants to call names like the Johnny Sacks of the world then I don't really have space for that anymore. Trumps America y'all

[Mdhorn 5911]

4 hours ago, G650 said:

 

I agree with part of this, and appreciate the thoughtful post (most of yours usually are). The fact that Democrats need to listen is 100% correct. And your last sentence is absolutely spot on.

 

The middle, I vary on the items from somewhat to absolute over the top vehement disagreement. I don't know if you saw it, but I quoted in another thread a post I made on another board almost 10 years ago, and it says the exact same thing. People have never had it so good. Period. This is always the go to charge obviously, Democrats tell people this, and they get mad and don't vote for them. I totally agree with supposition that by the way. But I'm not a democrat running for office and I don't need anyone's vote, so I am happy to point this out. People are having to stretch money a teeny bit further, so you toss out any sense remaining of the American ideal? Considering having to make marginally tougher financial choices than 2019 still puts someone lightyears ahead of anyone, and I mean, anyone, living in say 1995. I'm just not going to agree with them, and my loyalty to them as a citizen has died. I'm not celebrating this, in fact I find it quite sad, but it's the truth. The social compact has been severed. Mainstream US governance has delivered the most prosperous and comfortable set of humans that has ever graced our planet. It's literal insanity to throw it away, and all of us are going to pay the price. And all over some nebulous emotional impulse that says they aren't doing as well as they should, which is by definition impossible to attain, there is literally nothing that anyone could do to change the way the feel because the sickness is inside them. Trump is unequivocally not describing their reality, he is describing the unreality they have created in their minds.

Spot on—people didn’t gravitate to the republicans, they had 2 million less votes. 16 million didn’t vote and it’s because they didn’t care.

[Goredho 17346]

2 minutes ago, G650 said:

Well, you know what, nevermind then. I did respect you quite a lot, probably as much as any poster here, but you can basically go fuck yourself if you want to say shit like intardnet to me. You have no idea what I know or experience, and if you just want to be dismissive knock yourself out.

I am not trying to piss you off.  "Intardnet" was not meant to be disparaging to you personally, its my generic term for the internet these days.  And I am making a proverbial you statement about people sharing their limited experiences on the internet like its gospel.  It applies to me, too.  Your observations are your observations and I am not saying they are wrong given what you are observing, just that they don't align with my observations.  If you interacted with the people I am around, you would have a different set of observations and potentially a different opinion.  If I interacted with the people you are around, I would have a different set of observations and maybe a different opinion.

I still love and respect you, bud, but will go fuck myself as requested.  Now to find some good pr0n...

[ChiTownDoc 21098]

6 hours ago, hookem2010 said:

Maybe a bunch of D leaning celebrities should meet with him and praise him for his Palmeresque dick in order to advance some non-evil policy positions?

This would actually work.  That's how narcissistic personality disorder works.  

[956 Worldwide 34428]

Anyway, I think there is a pattern from JFK through Biden on how the democrats can be president:  have a gifted politician present an optimistic and inclusive outline of an America that works for everyone and steer clear of shrill and angry rhetoric which only works for the right wing.  Worked for JFK, for Clinton, for Obama and once for Carter.  
 

And I do think to be fair to Kamala she tried to run that campaign but didn’t get to do it in a primary and was pushing against inertia.  This is not unique to us, incumbents around the world got PUNISHED. 
 

[G650 14100]

3 minutes ago, Goredho said:

If you interacted with the people I am around, you would have a different set of observations and potentially a different opinion.  If I interacted with the people you are around, I would have a different set of observations and maybe a different opinion.

Fair enough, but what I'm trying to say is I am around that, and worse. You refer to small business owners, I'm talking about guys trying support families on 15 bucks an hour. We can have a different opinion of it, that's totally fine, but one thing that differentiates me from the vast majority of posters here is I don't exist in a professional setting. My days are spent with dudes who will work until their bodies break down for minimal pay, I don't need to go to a coffee shop to hear stories of the working man, I am in it 24/7.

 

I appreciate the clarification though my friend.

[Frank Drebin 5621]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Anyway, I think there is a pattern from JFK through Biden on how the democrats can be president:  have a gifted politician present an optimistic and inclusive outline of an America that works for everyone and steer clear of shrill and angry rhetoric which only works for the right wing.  Worked for JFK, for Clinton, for Obama and once for Carter.  
 

And I do think to be fair to Kamala she tried to run that campaign but didn’t get to do it in a primary and was pushing against inertia.  This is not unique to us, incumbents around the world got PUNISHED. 
 

She could not win a primary.  Watch what Tulsi did to her.  I have never seen anyone gutted this badly and not be able to respond:

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

14 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I mean, what’s your deal? I don’t think Latin American style populism was a good solution and said so.  You asked why I don’t want it and said I said why.
 

You’ve said that “populism is Bernie Sanders and that’s the solution.”  And fair enough, I don’t begrudge your fondness for the guy, although a twice-failed primary candidate maybe isn’t the model for winning elections. 

Me: "replace 'Bernie Sanders' with 'a Democrat whose core desire is to advocate for the economic betterment of the poor and working classes while talking like a non-robot (like Biden/Trump and unlike Harris/Vance)'"

You: "You’ve said that 'populism is Bernie Sanders and that’s the solution.'"

This is what I meant by thanking you for either reminding me of your style or making it obvious to me for the first time. It lets me know things I need to know regarding how to respond or whether to respond. That kind of purposeful and intentional dishonesty is instructive and helps me figure out whether or not you are someone who is wanting to converse honestly (a useful thing) or if I should just respond to you in a Socratic way where I'm actually talking to the larger audience because that's the useful thing.

[ChiTownDoc 21098]

3 hours ago, nbmishoid said:

The Killeen white ghetto that my parents raised 5 kids in was also the greatest time of their lives.   My dad, soldier come postman, took a night job at a filling station when college loomed.  My mom got a minimum wage job at the paper.  Our house was 1100 sf.

I, my sisters, and our parents knew this life very well.  We appreciated it, because that is what the culture nudged us to do.

Folks in similar circumstances now are very unsatisfied.   No doubt today’s information deluge kicks them down that road.  Yet our reactions to these circumstances remain always a choice.

Which choice is better?  To appreciate life, as a default world view, or to see life as grievance, in one form or another.

Yes, grew up fairly poor but we genuinely appreciated what we had and were besides ourselves that if you busted your ass you could have that Cadillac that 'Mr. Jones' the 'rich' white dude had.  Now, we were bamboozled and just kind of assumed those that were very successful worked hard and deserved what they had.  I guess we were gullible back then, but I think people assuming Trump is gonna help the working man is just as gullible.  Same coin, different side.  

[Goredho 17346]

Just now, G650 said:

Fair enough, but what I'm trying to say is I am around that, and worse. You refer to small business owners, I'm talking about guys trying support families on 15 bucks an hour. We can have a different opinion of it, that's totally fine, but one thing that differentiates me from the vast majority of posters here is I don't exist in a professional setting. My days are spent with dudes who will work until their bodies break down for minimal pay, I don't need to go to a coffee shop to hear stories of the working man, I am in it 24/7.

 

I appreciate the clarification though my friend.

Yep.  What I am observing are small business owners in small towns and everyone downstream from them on the local economic ladder.  Not just the guy that owns the plow service, but the drivers that work for him.  Not just the excavating company owner, but the workers he hires.  Or not just the souvenir shop owner, but the employees that man it.  Life isn't better for them than it ever has been here in the mountains of Colorado.  I am not making that up for internet points or whatever.  They are struggling more today than they were pre-pandemic and they voted for change -- any change.  That is the reality here.  Your mileage may vary.

[956 Worldwide 34428]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

This is a great example of just saying a lot of words without saying anything. What are you even talking about? What do you think "populism" is?

Sorry, I forgot what a great model of discourse I was interacting with; carry on with Socratic enlightenment. 

[mchookem 16206]

a populist...great communicator...charismatic...economic realist...smart as hell...wipes the floor with an opponent in any argument...connects with working class and minorities as well as educated elites...celebrity status...

i think y'all know where i'm going...