Trump’s America

[David Dennison 19440]

32 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

They did choose a cause.  The choice was, “everything is stupendous and the common folk are too stupid to understand how great they are doing”.

Name one thing Donald Trump will do for those common folk.

 

[Hank Kingsley 21598]

The bullet points for why Dems lost need to be dumbed down a lot. Still giving most voters way too much credit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19407]

32 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Should it be billionaires and billion-dollar businesses have been fucking you raw in the ass without a reach-around and we're going to start fucking them?

Give it a shot.  Not like it could lead to worse results than we saw Nov 5.

[mdmost 43847]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Name one thing Donald Trump will do for those common folk.

 

Hurt the most venerable who the common folk blame for their lot in life, look no further than the people who lived in Springfield that were complaining about the Haitians taking all the jobs. 

[TwiceHorn 31984]

1 minute ago, mdmost said:

Hurt the most venerable who the common folk blame for their lot in life, look no further than the people who lived in Springfield that were complaining about the Haitians taking all the jobs. 

Funny thing is, I don't think there were many in Springfield actually complaining about anything.

 

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

27 minutes ago, G650 said:

I also find this sentiment insane. 2018 and more so 2019 were terrible years, 2022 and 2023 were miles better.

For you (and me). Not for most middle class people or people on fixed incomes.

[G650 14421]

8 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

For you (and me). Not for most middle class people or people on fixed incomes.

Fixed income maybe, the middle class no way.

[Francisco 2.0 32542]

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trump-allies-migrants-camps-miller-homan-1235168998/

 

TRUMP ALLIES WERE TOLD TO STOP SAYING THEY’LL PUT MIGRANTS IN ‘CAMPS’

“Apparently some people think it makes us look like Nazis,” says a close Trump ally

Quote

Donald Trump’s incoming administration brass wants it made clear: The president-elect is not planning to build a brand new network of “camps” to house the myriad undocumented immigrants who Trump has vowed to round up in what he claims will be “the largest deportation” operation in the “history of our country.”

To be sure, Trump’s migrant expulsion program, if he were to follow through with his plans to deport millions, would require massive new camps — something that Trump’s top policy-hand has explicitly told reporters. But openly describing these camps as “camps” invites supremely negative historical comparisons. 

 

Quote

Some top Trump advisers get so annoyed when the media refers to his publicly detailed immigration-crackdown plans as including “camps” that they’ve cautioned the president-elect’s allies and surrogates to stop using the word “camps” during the current presidential transition, according to two sources familiar with the situation. 

“I have received some guidance to avoid terms, like ‘camps,’ that can be twisted and used against the president, yes,” says one close Trump ally. “Apparently some people think it makes us look like Nazis.”

 

Quote

It wasn’t the news media that came up with the term “camps” to describe the plans for Trump’s new, expanded system of detention facilities for holding immigrants awaiting mass deportations — a network of detention centers that he could potentially call on the U.S. military to help build and operate. It was Team Trump that started describing the future that way.

A year ago, Stephen Miller — Trump’s top immigration adviser, who was recently appointed to serve as deputy chief of staff for policy in his new White House — began publicly outlining his and Trump’s grandest nativist vision for rounding up millions for deportation.

 

Spoiler

At the time, Miller himself was routinely and specifically using the word “camps” to describe what he and his boss wanted the military to build, should they retake power in 2024. “He said it a lot,” says a Trump 2024 official who’s known Miller for years. “If you know Stephen, you know why he didn’t have a problem with it.”

And according to one New York Times story late last year, “Miller said the new camps would likely be built ‘on open land in Texas near the border.’ He said the military would construct them under the authority and control of the Department of Homeland Security. While he cautioned that there were no specific blueprints yet, he said the camps would look professional and similar to other facilities for migrants that have been built near the border.”

Miller wasn’t an official member of the 2024 Trump presidential campaign, though the campaign itself recommended the newspaper speak to Miller for its story on Trump’s immigration plans if he were to win back the presidency. 

And yet, according to two sources with direct knowledge of the matter, the Times article infuriated some of Team Trump’s senior staff, who privately said they believed the reporting made their candidate — the once and future leader of the free world — appear extreme and borderline fascistic, especially on “the concentration camps framing,” a Trump adviser notes.

Months later, Trump, himself, didn’t shut down the idea his administration would put migrants in camps. “I would not rule out anything,” Trump said, when Time magazine asked whether he would build new detention camps. Pressed about Miller’s plan for camps, Trump said: “It’s possible that we’ll do it to an extent but we shouldn’t have to do very much of it, because we’re going to be moving them out as soon as we get to it.”

Today, much of Trump’s government-in-waiting feel strongly about avoiding the optics of saying they’ll be building new migrant camps.

In late October, 60 Minutes asked Trump’s new “border czar,” Tom Homan, to explain what the president-elect’s historic deportation will look like. He specifically brought up the specter of “concentration camps,” and attempted to dismiss the comparison.

“Lemme tell you what it’s not going to be first,” Homan said. “It’s not gonna be a mass sweep of neighborhoods. It’s not gonna be building concentration camps. I’ve read it all. It’s ridiculous.

CBS correspondent Cecilia Vega asked Homan to clarify what Trump’s mass deportation would look like without massive sweeps and concentration camps. He replied, “It’ll be concentrated.” He quickly added, “They’ll be targeted arrests.”

Homan, who previously served in the Obama and Trump administrations, is known as the architect of Trump’s family separation policy. Asked in the 60 Minutes interview for potential alternatives to separating families during deportations, Homan offered: “Families can be deported together.”

 

[David Dennison 19440]

35 minutes ago, G650 said:

Fixed income maybe, the middle class no way.

[G650 14421]

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

 

 

This is simply the wage growth side of things. Add in that most middle class people absolutely are in equities, it's not even close. Hell, even a lot of working class are in equities with 401ks these days.

[Underdog 29099]

3 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I just spent 2.5 days in Vegas and I can tell you now, I completely understand how this happened. We are very insulated in Austin by an intelligent, plugged in, and well-meaning population. This was…not that. 

Austin:  Rogan, Jones, Elon, Hot Wheels, Paxton, etc… 

[Pato del Muerto 53327]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Funny thing is, I don't think there were many in Springfield actually complaining about anything.

 

I think their complaint was how the influx of Haitians that are using social services has overwhelmed the local social services, and they’d like help in that area. 

[tx 3 putt 78461]

22 hours ago, gmr548 said:

Jesus fucking Christ.

I'd say this guy's professional career just ended but he'll actually get a raise in the right wing grifting sphere. Kyle Rittenhouse style.

 

just got accepted into am

[Brisketexan 106612]

 

 
This is simply the wage growth side of things. Add in that most middle class people absolutely are in equities, it's not even close. Hell, even a lot of working class are in equities with 401ks these days.

The thing is, your first chart shows exactly what Bozo and the feelings of working Americans reflect.
We were used to wages slightly outpacing inflation….doing just a little better over time, steadily. Then…inflation outpaced wages, for a good slice of time. In recent months, wages again outpaced inflation, but people haven’t regained all the ground they lost and, more importantly, they don’t FEEL like they regained that ground. The traumatic feeling of falling behind is still a fresh feeling.
Objectively, so we see that there was an economic phenomenon and cycle that happened globally, and the US weathered it better than almost everyone else, and is largely in the recovery/recovered period? Sure. But statistics aren’t feelings. Feelings are what people have, and people are the thing that votes.
Truly, I don’t know if any Dem candidate could have done anything to win, climbing uphill against those feelings. But…they could have done better.
And yes…they need to figure out how to run negative campaigns, because people respond to demonization and fear 1000X better than they respond to boring policy and facts. We have a booming and evil oligarch class asserting outsized influence, ripe target right there.

[Incredulity 11859]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Name one thing Donald Trump will do for those common folk.

 

That would be a better campaign message than what they went with.  

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

2 hours ago, G650 said:

Fixed income maybe, the middle class no way.

 

1 hour ago, G650 said:

 

 

This is simply the wage growth side of things. Add in that most middle class people absolutely are in equities, it's not even close. Hell, even a lot of working class are in equities with 401ks these days.

Oh, I see. The way they feel about their own lives is wrong. You’re saying they are too stupid to understand why their wage and 401K growth makes up for the higher price of food and home prices accelerating away from them. Sure, the entire middle third of the adult population have investments and savings totaling less than $50k, but look at that tiny pile grow! Sure, groceries went up by like 20%, but incomes went up by almost half that much, and they have iPhones, what’s their problem?
Great argument, you convinced me. 

Edited November 16 by Bozo_Casanova

[G650 14421]

5 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

 

Oh, I see. The way they feel about their own lives is wrong. You’re saying they are too stupid to understand why their wage and 401K growth makes up for the higher price of food and home prices accelerating away from them. Sure, the entire middle third of the adult population have investments and savings totaling less than $50k, but look at that tiny pile grow! Sure, groceries went up by like 20%, but incomes went up by almost half that much, and they have iPhones, what’s their problem?
Great argument, you convinced me. 

Yes, that is 100% what I'm saying.

 

Again, I'm happy for the Democrats to lie to them for votes. Because better working class policies will result. But I'm not pretend Chad and Tynnyfer Middle Class' fee fees remotely reflect reality because they don't.

[Captainant 28380]

15 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

the higher price of food and home prices accelerating away from them

Price gouging is a hell of a thing, man

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

52 minutes ago, G650 said:

Yes, that is 100% what I'm saying.

 

Again, I'm happy for the Democrats to lie to them for votes. Because better working class policies will result. But I'm not pretend Chad and Tynnyfer Middle Class' fee fees remotely reflect reality because they don't.

[Bookman 4754]

4 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Name one thing Donald Trump will do for those common folk.

 

He'll do what he did last time -- line his pockets, play golf, keep oil at $50/bbl, and cut taxes for rich people while drastically increasing spending!

[troph 25089]

6 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I just spent 2.5 days in Vegas and I can tell you now, I completely understand how this happened. We are very insulated in Austin by an intelligent, plugged in, and well-meaning population. This was…not that. 

We were on the coast this weekend - small town south/coastal Texas. No way dems are ever winning these areas, not going to happen.

[G650 14421]

40 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I'm openly antagnostic to the middle class, have been for a long time. They have enabled the rise of people like Elon Musk while keeping poor Americans poorer.

 

Interestingly enough when you use descriptives of who you are thinking of in terms of these voting blocks, you never describe middle class people.

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

8 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I'm openly antagnostic to the middle class, have been for a long time. They have enabled the rise of people like Elon Musk while keeping poor Americans poorer.

 

Interestingly enough when you use descriptives of who you are thinking of in terms of these voting blocks, you never describe middle class people.

I don’t? I think I use “working class” and “middle class” pretty consistently when I’m talking about what Democrats should be doing or don’t do. I certainly should, I’m a partisan of the middle class, despite no longer belonging to it financially.
Democrats walking away from the middle 70% of the the population, both in terms of policy focus and linguistically, is the main reason I stopped identifying with the party and left it altogether in 2016, since Hillary Clinton was the end-stage manifestation of that abandonment.

[G650 14421]

4 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I don’t? I think I use “working class” and “middle class” pretty consistently when I’m talking about what Democrats should be doing or don’t do. I certainly should, I’m a partisan of the middle class, despite no longer belonging to it financially.
Democrats walking away from the middle 70% of the the population, both in terms of policy focus and linguistically, is the main reason I stopped identifying with the party and left it altogether in 2016, since Hillary Clinton was the end-stage manifestation of that abandonment.

I mean, I will admit i don't see every one of your posts, but from what I have seen you are consistently describing working class people and pretty much never middle class people.

[David Dennison 19440]

32 minutes ago, G650 said:

I'm openly antagnostic to the middle class, have been for a long time. They have enabled the rise of people like Elon Musk while keeping poor Americans poorer.

In your estimation, what percentage of the middle class is working class?

[Goofyboy 3428]

I don’t? I think I use “working class” and “middle class” pretty consistently when I’m talking about what Democrats should be doing or don’t do. I certainly should, I’m a partisan of the middle class, despite no longer belonging to it financially.
Democrats walking away from the middle 70% of the the population, both in terms of policy focus and linguistically, is the main reason I stopped identifying with the party and left it altogether in 2016, since Hillary Clinton was the end-stage manifestation of that abandonment.

You stated that the working class have housing prices running away from them. This is yet another example of them fighting against their own interests. There are democrats that say housing is a right and want to dismantle large conglomerates from owning massive amounts of rentals OR just empty houses. Float this past a group of working class or middle class folks and it’s turned into the government won’t let people invest in real estate.

How do you suggest the democrat party attract those people? I don’t think it’s possible.

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

16 minutes ago, G650 said:

I mean, I will admit i don't see every one of your posts, but from what I have seen you are consistently describing working class people and pretty much never middle class people.

I think the disconnect here is that when I talk about the *middle class*, I’m literally talking about the roughly half of the population that makes from 2/3 to double the median income (ie from about $60k-$160k which is clustered in middle of that range. There’s some overlap, but in general I think of working class people as non-management people who are lower or lower-middle class, ie middle but making less than median income. 
 

What I do not mean is high income people who feel economic strain because their discretionary income does not provide what they think it should. That strain is real and flows from some of the same structural problems in the economy that hurt the middle class, but  they aren’t middle class people. 
 

What do you think is a middle class person?

Edited November 16 by Bozo_Casanova

[Underdog 29099]

2 hours ago, Incredulity said:

That would be a better campaign message than what they went with.  

Now you tell us! 

[David Dennison 19440]

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I think the disconnect here is that when I talk about the *middle*, I’m literally talking about the  distribution from 2/3 to double the median income (ie from about $60k-$160k which is clustered in middle of that range. There’s some overlap, but in general I think of working class people as non-management people who are lower or lower-middle class, ie middle but making less than median income. 

The middle class sounds just awful.

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

2 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

You stated that the working class have housing prices running away from them. This is yet another example of them fighting against their own interests. There are democrats that say housing is a right and want to dismantle large conglomerates from owning massive amounts of rentals OR just empty houses. Float this past a group of working class or middle class folks and it’s turned into the government won’t let people invest in real estate.

How do you suggest the democrat party attract those people? I don’t think it’s possible.

Well not for nothing,  those aren’t solutions to anything and wouldn’t solve any of the real problems in our housing market any more than mass deportations would. Our housing crisis is a product of local zoning, cheap debt, and income inequality, in that order. 
But more importantly, the Democratic Party is all over the place on housing. At the local level they are often the worst offenders when it comes to protecting housing shortages and pulling up ladders of opportunity. 

[David Dennison 19440]

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Well not for nothing,  those aren’t solutions to anything and wouldn’t solve any of the real problems in our housing market any more than mass deportations would. Our housing crisis is a product of local zoning, cheap debt, and income inequality, in that order. 
But more importantly, the Democratic Party is all over the place on housing. At the local level they are often the worst offenders when it comes to protecting housing shortages and pulling up ladders of opportunity. 

This. This. This. So much this.

NIMBYism among upper income Democrats is shameful.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20834]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The middle class sounds just awful.

They are. I'd show you on the doll where they hurt me, but there are some in the room with us right now.

[G650 14421]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

In your estimation, what percentage of the middle class is working class?

 

0%. Its not what "I think", it's what it is.

 

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I think the disconnect here is that when I talk about the *middle*, I’m literally talking about the  distribution from 2/3 to double the median income (ie from about $60k-$160k which is clustered in middle of that range. There’s some overlap, but in general I think of working class people as non-management people who are lower or lower-middle class, ie middle but making less than median income. 
 

What I do not mean is high income people who feel economic strain because their discretionary income does not provide what they think it should. That strain is real and flows from some of the same structural problems in the economy that hurt the middle class, but  they aren’t middle class people. 
 

What do you think is a middle class person?

 

Middle income =/= middle class. I know there is always the classic joke every American thinks they are middle class, but that isn't the case.

 

Theres arguments to be had around the edges, similar to the generational years (nobody reading this start tlying about if Kamala is GenX goddammit), but by and large there are very clear distinctions. Class in the US is unambiguously an offshoot and close cousin of the Anglo conception of class. The only real difference is that Americans have always allowed for class mobility, whereas that was much more difficult in the UK. Class is the confluence of culture and money, exclusive of neither.

 

White collar jobs are middle class jobs by definition. Accountancy, small retail store owners, engineers, middle management, basically the working professionals. Everything from taste in media, food, diction and so forth outline this.

The working class obviously has their own taste, culture etc. These are people with name patches on their shirts. Also coincidentally who I spend most of my days with. But they are not middle class I can promise you. Their conception of basically everything is diametrically opposed to the middle class.

The upper class is almost non existent in this country at this point.  There are small vestiges left with certain people, but it's basically inconsequential. Almost every rich person you meet is dreadfully middle class.

So if you want to use class and income interchangeably that's fine but it's not accurate and there ends up being a lot of talking over each other. Theres a lot more that can be said about class, and I have actually studied this more than I'd like to admit, but it would just be a massive and unproductive diversion.

 

I would also say anyone making 160k who bitches can lick my nuts, but that is a whole different conversation

14 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Well not for nothing,  those aren’t solutions to anything and wouldn’t solve any of the real problems in our housing market any more than mass deportations would. Our housing crisis is a product of local zoning, cheap debt, and income inequality, in that order. 
But more importantly, the Democratic Party is all over the place on housing. At the local level they are often the worst offenders when it comes to protecting housing shortages and pulling up ladders of opportunity. 

All true

[David Dennison 19440]

6 minutes ago, G650 said:

0%. Its not what "I think", it's what it is.

Says who?

[Brisketexan 106612]

This. This. This. So much this.
NIMBYism among upper income Democrats is shameful.

I came to Austin 30+ years ago from Houston. Where I grew up solidly middle class oil patch (went to school with some upper class, though.)
Austin was my first exposure to real-deal political liberalism. I don’t mean Texas democrat liberal, I mean Austin liberal. It was eye-opening, and not in any good way. Lots of performative preachy bullshit. Volvos with inspiring bumper stickers. Which were parked in front of nice west Austin homes, after the driver had just been at a neighborhood association meeting shouting about how those new apartments shouldn’t be built because they would “destroy the character of the community.” The hypocrisy was blatant enough that a naive Houston kid saw it clear as day.
A friend’s dad was IBEW here. They tried for YEARS to build a job training center. Austin’s idiotic salamander-saving building restrictions made it a hard no. They eventually gave up.
Out-of-touch liberals preaching on one hand and making life harder for real people on the other is a long-time problem.

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

47 minutes ago, G650 said:

Middle income =/= middle class. I know there is always the classic joke every American thinks they are middle class, but that isn't the case.

 

Theres arguments to be had around the edges, similar to the generational years (nobody reading this start tlying about if Kamala is GenX goddammit), but by and large there are very clear distinctions. Class in the US is unambiguously an offshoot and close cousin of the Anglo conception of class. The only real difference is that Americans have always allowed for class mobility, whereas that was much more difficult in the UK. Class is the confluence of culture and money, exclusive of neither.

 

White collar jobs are middle class jobs by definition. Accountancy, small retail store owners, engineers, middle management, basically the working professionals. Everything from taste in media, food, diction and so forth outline this.

Very interesting. I’ll tell Pew. They’ve been doing their research wrong. 

[David Dennison 19440]

Working or middle class?

Cops

Firefighters

EMTs

Teachers

Blue collar union members

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Working or middle class?

Cops

Firefighters

EMTs

Teachers

Blue collar union members

Middle

Middle

Middle

Middle 

Depends on industry, job category, level of skill, etc. 

[David Dennison 19440]

5 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Middle

Middle

Middle

Middle 

Depends on industry, job category, level of skill, etc. 

But also working class. There is plenty of overlap in this country and those are just a few of the occupations that qualify.

Edited November 16 by David Dennison

[Bozo_Casanova 26773]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

But also working class. There is plenty of overlap in this country and those are just a few of the occupations that qualify.

Agree

[softlynow 1893]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I came to Austin 30+ years ago from Houston. Where I grew up solidly middle class oil patch (went to school with some upper class, though.)
Austin was my first exposure to real-deal political liberalism. I don’t mean Texas democrat liberal, I mean Austin liberal. It was eye-opening, and not in any good way. Lots of performative preachy bullshit. Volvos with inspiring bumper stickers. Which were parked in front of nice west Austin homes, after the driver had just been at a neighborhood association meeting shouting about how those new apartments shouldn’t be built because they would “destroy the character of the community.” The hypocrisy was blatant enough that a naive Houston kid saw it clear as day.
A friend’s dad was IBEW here. They tried for YEARS to build a job training center. Austin’s idiotic salamander-saving building restrictions made it a hard no. They eventually gave up.
Out-of-touch liberals preaching on one hand and making life harder for real people on the other is a long-time problem.

Yeah, NIMBY is usually just bad policy. Nearby, in the reddest part of ultra-red Montgomery county, NIMBY means roads and schools.

It’s amazing watching Magnolia ISD get flooded with students while they vote down bonds to give them a place to be during the day.

Fortunately I’m in CISD, and we just elected board members committed to banning books. Stupid, but I’ll know which books to get my girls.

I never get to “both sides” things, so there it is. 

[Red Five 41593]

I was thinking earlier about how in Trump's first term, he wanted military parades with tanks on the streets of DC. But the people around him told him we don't do that in America. Well, guess what. The people around him this time will respond with "Great idea!".

We'll probably also see peaceful protesters shot at some point. Maybe we'll nuke a hurricane. 

[G650 14421]

3 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Very interesting. I’ll tell Pew. They’ve been doing their research wrong. 

I mean you call them whatever you want, I'm not the lord and ruler of your language or amything, but this stuff is pretty well established. I'm just giving you the overview of class division, which isn't the same as income division.

There's a reason it's a running joke that every American thinks they are middle class.

[tx 3 putt 78461]

 

[InkaUtexas 26795]

So if you did something when he was not president he is still pissed? So following a lawful order is now wrong?

Damn.

[Biff Tannen 46060]

1 hour ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

Wait wut?  The withdrawal that he blamed on Biden?  

[956 Worldwide 35516]

13 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

So if you did something when he was not president he is still pissed? So following a lawful order is now wrong?

Damn.

This is simply an extension of his refusal to accept election results. Anyone who did and worked for Biden is a traitor.  And it’s also an important step in seizing control of the power institutions.

[tx 3 putt 78461]

8 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Wait wut?  The withdrawal that he blamed on Biden?  

 

reminds me of hitler’s constant meddling with the military 

[Francisco 2.0 32542]

 

 

 

[InkaUtexas 26795]

15 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Wait wut?  The withdrawal that he blamed on Biden?  

Lots blame it on Biden. As if Doha accords and that little thing like wanting to invite the Taliban to camp david never happened.