What Went Wrong With Young Men

[linux 1531]

1 minute ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Fuck 'em.  They can all go to hell.  I hope their lives continue to be a sexless shit-show.  What a bunch of pussies. 

They don't even care about sex anymore dude some don't even watch porn and joined nofap, that is how detached from society they are, just to be clear we need to prevent more men joining them I do think in today's climate they are kinda lost, we need to watch the social media our kids consume, the discords they visit the youtubes they watch and offer good alternatives. Not Tim Waltz which was a good pick but so god damn tone deaf to be lectured by feminists as THE role model.

[linux 1531]

Then you have the ones dating the ones that watch Joe Rogan or Andrew Tate, men that absolutely loathe non masculinity (soyboys is their prefered insult), you could sway them with strongmen, men that hate the establishment as well but are strong not even Bernie counts.

Why obsess over men ? because women are not budging 45% will always vote for the MAGA boy. Handsmaiden Tale comes to life? they will still vote 45% MAGA. They were supposed to be our saviors.

[Pescado_Rojo 19279]

39 minutes ago, G650 said:

Do kids not go to parties anymore?

I have 17 year old boy/girl twins. Both have pretty active social lives, go to parties, football games, etc. They are both athletes, which I think helps because they have a kind of built in friend group. My daughter has had a steady boyfriend since the summer, and he's on the track team with her. My son dates pretty heavily, but hasn't really locked one down. He's going out of state for college, and has no interest in getting tied down. He makes fun of his buddy that's a freshman in college and still with his high school girlfriend (who is still in High School). He also does a fair amount of gaming, but it's social for him. He's been on varsity since his freshman year and as a result, almost all of his friends are in college away from home. All those kids that are now scattered from Kansas to the panhandle, to South Texas still get together a couple evenings a week and play games for a few hours.  I do worry some about his weed consumption...mainly because weed is so much stronger than when we were buying 3 joints for $5 at the car wash. 

[Balcones 449]

Wow. 

[gmr548 16361]

5 hours ago, Frank Drebin said:

Maybe they got tired of their sons, fathers, husbands, and brothers being shit on by woke leftists?  I know plenty that feel that way in my circle.  

Didn't know you were into that sort of thing.

[LCHorn 2567]

5 minutes ago, Balcones said:

Wow. 

Wildly overdue.  

[Hank Kingsley 20398]

My son is in first grade, and I'm focused on doing my best to prepare him for a healthy and happy life as a young man and adult. I've been put off a little bit my some of my friends with older kids and how many have them in sports/club teams year round and the super busy schedules and traveling they do all the time. I'm older (48) and as a kid I played a bunch of sports but had enough "down time" to enjoy hanging out with friends and doing other things. 
 

But I now see the side benefits of a heavy schedule with sports. Constantly being with other kids outdoors all the time and keeping busy.  Down time these days is not nearly as healthy as it was when I was a kid. Video games, phones, YouTube algorithms, etc. can turn them into zombies or anti-social behavior.  And sports club teams/busy schedules keep you from falling into that trap. Being able to just go outside in the neighborhood and fucking around til sun down isn't happening in very many places these days.  

The reality is parenting is a MUCH harder job now than it was 30 years ago and we have to be way more intentional. My parents are awesome and I love them, but there was no heavy lifting. They could just trust the overall environment we lived in back then. That world doesn't exist anymore. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Hank Kingsley

[SimonBolivar 10841]

1 minute ago, Hank Kingsley said:

They could just trust the overall environment we lived in back then. That world doesn't exist anymore. 

I think it could, we just don't as parents allow it to happen anymore. 

[ztejas 42960]

3 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

They could just trust the overall environment we lived in back then. That world doesn't exist anymore. 

The world was more dangerous back then. People are just fucked in the head now. 

[Mole 4318]

An observation: our culture dehumanizes everyone in special ways. We’ve made a lot of progress with marginalized groups. We’ve basically said to men, “it’s your fault,” or “pull yourself by your bootstraps,” or “it’s not happening.” See the general tone of much of this thread for examples.
 

Just speaking from my life, I’m mostly treated as having value or dignity for what I can do for someone or my willingness to suffer for someone else’s gain, often at a great physical and mental cost. I live a pretty happy, privileged life, but most of the respect and dignity that I’m shown is based on taking from me, including in my own home. This is our culture. My basic humanity, dignity, and things that I truly value aren’t worth considering unless I can provide.  I think this is a pretty common experience for men and it isn’t about the amount of sex. It’s a day-to-day constant drain on our self-worth.

Sure, life sucks and life is cheap to our culture and historically, but we have made progress in recognizing the inherent value and dignity of marginalized groups — a great achievement and always last due — but putting on an imaginary MAGA hat, men are told that they are privileged when life just beats us down too and we’re told that our lived experience isn’t real or is simply entitlement.
 

My imaginary MAGA self sure doesn’t feel entitled. He feels marginalized because he is marginalized. Failure to recognize that is at least part of the problem. He may not win the grievance Olympics, but we’re still beating him down and simultaneously tell him it isn’t happening or he just needs to go to the bar or gym or some other bit of nonsense.
 

So discussions of the unique ways that men are dehumanized get pushed to the sleazy corners of the internet where valid complaints are finally heard and ultimately turned into misplaced anger. If “good” men and women won’t hear them, they will go somewhere else.

I don’t identify with the anger, but it seems logical once you consider their lived experience.

That the prototype “alpha” MAGA male is so weak, pathetic, and sad is just a reflection of the corner these young men found themselves. He’s the absolute personification of our rotten culture.

 

[Hank Kingsley 20398]

Just now, SimonBolivar said:

I think it could, we just don't as parents allow it to happen anymore. 

I get what you're saying, and the overprotection is not good. But the traps of modern technology weren't around back then. It's much more difficult now. 

[Hank Kingsley 20398]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

The world was more dangerous back then. People are just fucked in the head now. 

There was no danger from my experience in the Houston suburbs in the 80s/90s. 

[BurdineBandit 805]

4 hours ago, TKthunder2 said:

Was just coming to post this.

 

Damn this was prescient as fuck. I'm struggling to find the connection that some of my friends get from voting for Trump, and I guess this makes as good of sense as any. I haven't had "real" conversations with them (not that I think they have "real" reasons), but the centering of culture war bullshit from the right really resonates with them. This puts it in perspective. As a 36 y/o latino male I don't share the view that they're abandoning me, but I'm probably older than who this is talking about and also grew up with the party that I vote for. Not because I love all of their ideas, but I find myself more closely aligned with what they represent, and a hell of a lot less of what that fake orange man is and represents. 

[wildcat09 28942]

1 minute ago, Hank Kingsley said:

There was no danger from my experience in the Houston suburbs in the 80s/90s. 

Yes there was. Pretty much everywhere was statistically speaking substantially more dangerous in the 80s and 90s and there's really no comparison to today. You didn't see it because you were a child. 

[G650 13542]

9 minutes ago, Mole said:

 

Just speaking from my life, I’m mostly treated as having value or dignity for what I can do for someone or my willingness to suffer for someone else’s gain, often at a great physical and mental cost. I live a pretty happy, privileged life, but most of the respect and dignity that I’m shown is based on taking from me, including in my own home

This seems wild to me.

 

I'm not trivializing your experience in the least, it just seems hard to conceive.

[956 Worldwide 34133]

It’s time to unironically post that “weak men create hard times” meme because by all measures, even tradcons have complained that the current generation of young men is the weakest and most feckless we have seen.  They just didn’t realize they were doing their own meme. 
 

A bunch of comfy, weak, atomized little shits who formed parasocial relationships with people like Rogan and Tate gave us this.

[Hank Kingsley 20398]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Yes there was. Pretty much everywhere was statistically speaking substantially more dangerous in the 80s and 90s and there's really no comparison to today. You didn't see it because you were a child. 

I'm not talking about crime. More about it being a better environment for a kid's mental health and overall upbringing. 

[Walser 1094]

1 hour ago, Frank Drebin said:

Sorry.  My wife is both very smart and a smoke show.

You're probably single or married to an ugly beast,.

And I would never get involved with a liberal woman.  Unattractive.  Annoying.  Too much mental illness risk.

You are truly an awful person.

No one believes you have a hot wife. Sorry about the lifelong rejections.

 

[crash_davis 23069]

 

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s time to unironically post that “weak men create hard times” meme because by all measures, even tradcons have complained that the current generation of young men is the weakest and most feckless we have seen.  They just didn’t realize they were doing their own meme. 
 

A bunch of comfy, weak, atomized little shits who formed parasocial relationships with people like Rogan and Tate gave us this.

I wouldn't say Rogan and Tate created these snowflakes. I'd say it was the other way around. Rogan and Tate just tapped into the pent up pussification and offered vagisil to help them feel better about their lives.

[TeeDubya 3357]

5 hours ago, G650 said:

 

Here's the thing though, none of that remotely mattered to me when I was that age, or practically anyone I knew. Our self worth was defined in so many other different ways. Hell, as an 18 year old 90% of my thought was how do I get laid and how much booze can I drink. 9% was playing guitar and 1% was making sure I had enough money to support the previous goals.

 

The way young guys are wholly unable to relate to women now is just baffling to me. I talk to younger women all the time, they haven't really changed much. The guys have. The whole incel phenomenon is real and I still can't comprehend it.

this.  at 18, all I wanted was one of D, F, or F.  Drunk, fight, or fuck.

[Chuckie Finster 22521]

10 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

 

I wouldn't say Rogan and Tate created these snowflakes. I'd say it was the other way around. Rogan and Tate just tapped into the pent up pussification and offered vagisil to help them feel better about their lives.

Not meaning to point you out specifically but I think in general, little things like lumping Rogan and Tate together explains the trouble currently facing Democrats.

Andrew Tate is a bad dude that actively preaches harmful ideas that the majority of us on this board, regardless of political views, would reject.  I'm not sure he honestly believes everything he says, but who cares as long as it gets him attention.

Joe Rogan is a stereotypical "bro."  He can be easily influenced at times by certain ideology some of us may reject, but at his core I believe that he respects women, tries to contribute positively to society, etc.

Lumping everyone who might lean towards right wing ideas into one bucket is how you radicalize center-right men.

Edited 3 hours ago by Chuckie Finster

[Deej 76278]

5 hours ago, G650 said:

It isn't though? See a girl at a bar, talk to her. This isn't that complicated.

At least in a bar, all of us Surlyites could dazzle women with our sparkling personalities.

[Frank Drebin 5446]

13 minutes ago, Walser said:

You are truly an awful person.

No one believes you have a hot wife. Sorry about the lifelong rejections.

 

What you nut jobs believe doesn’t change realities.  See last night.  

[G650 13542]

Just now, Deej said:

At least in a bar, all of us Surlyites could dazzle women with our sparkling personalities.

Well obviously not our looks, so we better be able to talk a good game.

[Bozo_Casanova 26111]

36 minutes ago, Mole said:

An observation: our culture dehumanizes everyone in special ways. We’ve made a lot of progress with marginalized groups. We’ve basically said to men, “it’s your fault,” or “pull yourself by your bootstraps,” or “it’s not happening.” See the general tone of much of this thread for examples.
 

Just speaking from my life, I’m mostly treated as having value or dignity for what I can do for someone or my willingness to suffer for someone else’s gain, often at a great physical and mental cost. I live a pretty happy, privileged life, but most of the respect and dignity that I’m shown is based on taking from me, including in my own home. This is our culture. My basic humanity, dignity, and things that I truly value aren’t worth considering unless I can provide.  I think this is a pretty common experience for men and it isn’t about the amount of sex. It’s a day-to-day constant drain on our self-worth.

Sure, life sucks and life is cheap to our culture and historically, but we have made progress in recognizing the inherent value and dignity of marginalized groups — a great achievement and always last due — but putting on an imaginary MAGA hat, men are told that they are privileged when life just beats us down too and we’re told that our lived experience isn’t real or is simply entitlement.
 

My imaginary MAGA self sure doesn’t feel entitled. He feels marginalized because he is marginalized. Failure to recognize that is at least part of the problem. He may not win the grievance Olympics, but we’re still beating him down and simultaneously tell him it isn’t happening or he just needs to go to the bar or gym or some other bit of nonsense.
 

So discussions of the unique ways that men are dehumanized get pushed to the sleazy corners of the internet where valid complaints are finally heard and ultimately turned into misplaced anger. If “good” men and women won’t hear them, they will go somewhere else.

I don’t identify with the anger, but it seems logical once you consider their lived experience.

That the prototype “alpha” MAGA male is so weak, pathetic, and sad is just a reflection of the corner these young men found themselves. He’s the absolute personification of our rotten culture.

 

This is a very good post

[jimmyjazz 45308]

1 hour ago, linux said:

They don't even care about sex anymore

This is an astonishly ignorant point.  My son is about as clean cut as they get, he takes "good citizen" to the extreme, and he is most definitely all about getting laid, fortunately (for now) by his steady girlfriend.

[linux 1531]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

This is an astonishly ignorant point.  My son is about as clean cut as they get, he takes "good citizen" to the extreme, and he is most definitely all about getting laid, fortunately (for now) by his steady girlfriend.

I am talking about incels dude, your son is well adjusted.

[Willfully Horn 7901]

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

The vast majority of this thread is legitimate discussion as to why the Democratic party has alienated young men, i.e. the exact same thing you guys have been screaming for a while.  But instead of contributing, you feel the need to say batshit like "liberal women are unattractive and annoying and probably not married."  Just fucking bullshit that has no purpose other than trolling.

The days of not taking Sack seriously have come to a middle.

Edited 3 hours ago by Willfully Horn

[crash_davis 23069]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/trump-economy-latino-vote-2024-election-rcna178951

From this article, Latino men are worried about inflation and that immigrant Latino men would steal their jobs. This is the best quote of all.

 

Artemio Muniz, chairman of the Federation of Hispanic Republicans, said he was pleased with the election outcome, but his elation was tempered because “the reality is there’s work to do."

"Now my focus is to the immigration side. Now we have a real battle on our hands, not with Trump," Muniz said, but "we have to make sure ... hard-working Mexican immigrants do not get deported."

 

So...do you want immigrants, or don't you? 

Anyway, dumb people voting is the problem. Are all these Latino men pissed off at companies declaring record and near record profits every quarter since Covid for causing inflation? NO WAI!. It's the current administration's fault. Wait until these dipshits realize what tariffs are going to do to prices.

 

America gets the leadership it deserves. When the vast voting populace is stupid, there is no hope. And that's how we got Trump 2.0.

Edited 3 hours ago by crash_davis

[linux 1531]

Potential presidential candidates? that might interest young men? say Dave Bautista running on a populist platform? I think we need to chuck the establishment out the window, they either vote democrat or surrender to Donny.

[Pancho 43913]

Haven’t read the entire thread…

- A lot of guys 18-35 have been shut out of dating (straights) women because women over the last few decades have realized they don’t have to be in abusive or trad wife type of relationships. This has made these bros upset at the system. People like kirk, tate, etc. feed into this and let them know that coming along with them, in combination of electing someone like trump, the “old way” can come back.

- gen z (males and females) are—not smart. They have no literacy skills and they fall for scams at the same rate as boomers. 

- as disgusting and racist as he is, Kirk’s tpusa shit they did on college campuses actually worked with those men/groups

 

It’s weird—this election doesn’t make me angry. It makes me want to get back in the classroom and out of administration, though. When I taught college, students would open up to me and some of this shit guys have bottled up is just disturbing. (The men in my classes were nearly always failing so asking “hey what’s up why aren’t you doing better in my class” usually brought on more and more conversation). So I can see why they feel everything is against them. I think the radical right gets them in through the bro-nature of it and then slowly works on the indoctrination so after a while, some of the vile shit that is being said, those guys don’t think it’s that bad and consider it just the next, reasonable step. 

[Hank Kingsley 20398]

6 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Joe Rogan is a stereotypical "bro."  He can be easily influenced at times by certain ideology some of us may reject, but at his core I believe that he respects women, tries to contribute positively to society, etc.

He has helped amplify and legitimize anti-intellectualism, the "dark web", and far right ideology.  

Just asking questions is a cop out. 

 

 

[tx 3 putt 75785]

[G650 13542]

4 minutes ago, Pancho said:

- gen z (males and females) are—not smart. They have no literacy skills and they fall for scams at the same rate as boomers. 

That's wild.

[David Dennison 18144]

I'm not sure calling young men stupid incels is going to help get votes.

[Aqua Buddha 14448]

11 minutes ago, Pancho said:

Haven’t read the entire thread…

- A lot of guys 18-35 have been shut out of dating (straights) women because women over the last few decades have realized they don’t have to be in abusive or trad wife type of relationships. This has made these bros upset at the system. People like kirk, tate, etc. feed into this and let them know that coming along with them, in combination of electing someone like trump, the “old way” can come back.

- gen z (males and females) are—not smart. They have no literacy skills and they fall for scams at the same rate as boomers. 

- as disgusting and racist as he is, Kirk’s tpusa shit they did on college campuses actually worked with those men/groups

 

It’s weird—this election doesn’t make me angry. It makes me want to get back in the classroom and out of administration, though. When I taught college, students would open up to me and some of this shit guys have bottled up is just disturbing. (The men in my classes were nearly always failing so asking “hey what’s up why aren’t you doing better in my class” usually brought on more and more conversation). So I can see why they feel everything is against them. I think the radical right gets them in through the bro-nature of it and then slowly works on the indoctrination so after a while, some of the vile shit that is being said, those guys don’t think it’s that bad and consider it just the next, reasonable step. 

They also say there's a "marriage crisis" or women don't want to get married.

There isn't a marriage crisis.  Women just don't want to marry them.  If I were single, I could be married in six months.

[A-Tex Devil 2438]

13 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

He has helped amplify and legitimize anti-intellectualism, the "dark web", and far right ideology.  

Just asking questions is a cop out. 

 

 

The center/left needs a voice or two.  It hasn't really had anything comparable to what the right has.  You have Howard Stern, he's old, Pod Save America, they're too partisan and online (and probably too old).  I don't know who that person is.  But find that voice (maybe someone from sports) that has a sense of humor and strong intellect and then platform that person to counter Rogan et al.  Easier said than done, I guess.   The Kelces?

Edited 3 hours ago by A-Tex Devil

[closetohumping 17316]

6 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

A lot of them are having a hard time finding their place in the world.  The good paying jobs are not good enough to payoff student debt, a mortgage, or start a family.  The job market is also incredibly dehumanizing.  You have to chain yourself to a shitty job just to get decent healthcare.  It not great when you wake up realizing your labor has been mostly to payoff banks instead of building wealth like the previous generations did by pulling up the bootstraps.  There’s a sad hopelessness that the American dream is forever out of reach for young men and it would take a strongman sent by god to correct course.  A decent education is also becoming increasingly unaffordable and possibly useless in the economy ahead. 

That applies to non young men as well

[Hank Kingsley 20398]

And then when you consider young men into Tech and AI, this fucking idiot is considered a God to them. 

 

 

[G650 13542]

That dude is a grade A piece of shit

[linux 1531]

Who could have forseen that Biden making a dumb identity politics promise in the 2020 primary would bite us in the ass an election later. And  I thought we stood a better chance with her had he stepped down on day 1, but yeah her rejection of populism bit us in the ass again, what is it with Goldam Sachs candidates?

[TwiceHorn 30904]

5 hours ago, G650 said:

 

Should? I don't know. I can tell you I did at 37. At 18 I was trying to nail anything that moved.

Well, how about in a stable relationship with stable finances and a stable-looking future where meeting the costs of child-rearing won't be an epic struggle.

Now and for most of recent history, that has not included 18 year olds, who should keep it in their pants or wrapped up tight until they reach the above point.

We're hard-wired to do a lot of shit and a lot of it is actually bad for us or for others.  A big part of morality, to include ernestly practiced religion, is the struggle to overcome those hard-wired impulses or at least harness them for your own good and that of those around you.

[bad_teammate 13044]

53 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s time to unironically post that “weak men create hard times” meme because by all measures, even tradcons have complained that the current generation of young men is the weakest and most feckless we have seen.  They just didn’t realize they were doing their own meme. 

A bunch of comfy, weak, atomized little shits who formed parasocial relationships with people like Rogan and Tate gave us this.

And the posters in here, largely, don't realize they're doing the exact same thing: "These stupid pussies don't slide down banisters on the wet panties of last night's conquests playing the 'Sultans of Swing' solo like I did when I was in high school!"

What percentage of young men in school are actually cool? How many of them have the confidence needed to live this way? How many of them genuinely just want to live a simple life of good values (whatever that might mean to them), humility, and responsibility? How many of them want to be useful and independent and see no path towards it?

Trumpworld is looking at them saying, "You're a dumb pussy right now, but that can change. Get in, loser, we're saving America and you're an important part of that!"

What are we saying to them? What's our offer? "You're a dumb pussy right now, but if you abase yourself enough you'll learn that hating yourself openly and shitting on yourself and those like you has its own rewards if you do it for clout. You get to feel like One of the Good Ones!"

I guess it's kind of working? The gap is closing a tiny bit?

[JBJ 3621]

30 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

He has helped amplify and legitimize anti-intellectualism, the "dark web", and far right ideology.  

Just asking questions is a cop out. 

Because guys like Pinker, Haidt, Sam Harris and Eric Weinstein are anti-intellectual and far right?

[Hank_Hill 18120]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s time to unironically post that “weak men create hard times” meme because by all measures, even tradcons have complained that the current generation of young men is the weakest and most feckless we have seen.  They just didn’t realize they were doing their own meme. 
 

A bunch of comfy, weak, atomized little shits who formed parasocial relationships with people like Rogan and Tate gave us this.

100% this

[Hank_Hill 18120]

26 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I'm not sure calling young men stupid incels is going to help get votes.

If the shoe fits

[G650 13542]

8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

And the posters in here, largely, don't realize they're doing the exact same thing: "These stupid pussies don't slide down banisters on the wet panties of last night's conquests playing the 'Sultans of Swing' solo like I did when I was in high school!"

Literally nobody is saying that

[UpperWestside 6063]

1 hour ago, Balcones said:

Wow. 

It’s okay to give the RGV back to Mexico. Leopards going to be eating so many faces that direction. I would imagine there is a fairly good amount of citizens there who want to “pull up the ladder” so to speak. Not the sharpest tools in the shed is probably being kind in seeing vote swings line that.

[linux 1531]

They banned pornhub in oklahoma, that you guys did not know about the no fap movement that is actually led by by alt right secular men leads me to believe we are all out of touch.

You think 4B is going to save us? that if women refuse to date/sex/marry/carry children will save us? lol they already have a counter today and it is not even a movement in the US

The only solution is socialization, early third spaces, parties, hiking, inclusive areas, we need to mingle kids early not wage a gender war, because sadly they are winning.

[G650 13542]

41 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I'm not sure calling young men stupid incels is going to help get votes.

I guess it's inevitable that being in here, this will pretty much devolve into a bunch of Democrats squabbling over how to get young men to vote for their party, but it really isn't why I made the thread. I just didn't think anywhere else on the site would lead to a remotely productive discussion. And to be fair there have been some great responses here so far from several posters.