What Went Wrong With Young Men

[workswithseed 2088]

Just now, gmr548 said:

Congrats. I have to ask: what went through your mind after logging off Surly for years and doing all this real life stuff, then watching Trump win the election, that ultimately led to "I should log in to Surly Horns and go straight to the politics board"?

 

[TwiceHorn 31435]

8 hours ago, Underdog said:

Dr. Galloway was back on Smerconish this morning and pretty much nailed it in regard to Trump zeroing in on young male voters with messaging, podcasts and such think he called it a Testosterone campaign. 

But, what did Trump really say to overgrown adolescent men? 

Or is it just the fact that he himself is an overgrown adolescent man that won the day?

[Underdog 28544]

He already had that vote.

[TwiceHorn 31435]

1 hour ago, Underdog said:

He already had that vote.

Well, as pointed out in the pod, he didn't in 2020.  Now, maybe it was that those aged 18-22 or thereabouts saw little or no progress under the Biden administration.

But, as far as I can tell, neither of them really delivered on a message to that group, unless it was just pure adolescent behavior.

And, of course, in addition to whatever things ail that particular generation, wage stagnation and asset inflation have been a good while coming and will take more than one administration to fix.  Those are the principal drivers of that problem.

ETA:  I think Galloway's observation that parents of young men swung because of their sons' failures was possibly a good observation, that is a lot of "Gen X" vote.

But my skepticism of Trump "policies" aside, I didn't hear anything from him that in any way directly addressed the plight of young men.

Edited November 10 by TwiceHorn

[tchookem 3900]

Hell yea man, what a successful 4 years for you man. I’m happy you had all these great life achievements and made huge strides in your last 4 years.

Didn't even need the GoFundMe money for the honeymoon.

[Underdog 28544]

54 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, as pointed out in the pod, he didn't in 2020.  Now, maybe it was that those aged 18-22 or thereabouts saw little or no progress under the Biden administration.

But, as far as I can tell, neither of them really delivered on a message to that group, unless it was just pure adolescent behavior.

And, of course, in addition to whatever things ail that particular generation, wage stagnation and asset inflation have been a good while coming and will take more than one administration to fix.  Those are the principal drivers of that problem.

ETA:  I think Galloway's observation that parents of young men swung because of their sons' failures was possibly a good observation, that is a lot of "Gen X" vote.

But my skepticism of Trump "policies" aside, I didn't hear anything from him that in any way directly addressed the plight of young men.

Ok

[TwiceHorn 31435]

Just now, Underdog said:

Ok

Not trying to argue with you, just trying to flesh it out.

[StassneyHorn 6573]

On 11/6/2024 at 1:52 PM, jimmyjazz said:

In my experience modern teens actually do accept LGBTQ, gender and race differences with far more ease than we did.  Times have changed.

You need to look at white males, not everyone else

[StassneyHorn 6573]

Because that shit is fucking stupid btw

I just don’t want that getting lost

[Goredho 17394]

So I haven't fully read this thread, I am just going to share what I see happening in my nieces, nephews, my own kids and those in their social circles.  Not everything I mention is a super powerful force, but it is part of what I see funneling young men to dark places.

1.  There is a tremendous swell of positive mainstream content featuring empowered young girls/women.  Barbi shows an empowered woman navigating a less than perfect world, etc... 
2.  There is somewhat of a vacuum of positive mainstream content featuring young boys/men being good and navigating the world around them.  Even something like Deadpool vs Wolverine that likely appeals to young men more than young women, A) not exactly a model of behavior and B) not applicable to the modern world a young man lives in.
3.  Most families have both parents working with kids of all genders spending more time alone and more often than not, that time is spent online
4.  Pandemic isolation became a multiplier to the above context and drove more kids to be even more engaged online
5.  These kids basically are free to allow their mind able to wander an online world without supervision.  Its the psychological equivalent of dropping your kids off at the edge of Hong Kong and telling them to be home by supper.
6.  For boys, that online world is full of bad actors who are willing to fill the vacuum of parenting and mainstream content shaping to influence how boys and young/men think
7.  Young boys/men who are tolerant and respectful as individuals are being lumped in with all the young boys/men who are not and treated as part of a homogenous "Patriarchy".  They feel dammed if they do and dammed if they don't and it reinforces the bullshit getting injected into their heads online.  At that point, the young men are left to wonder -- is it really bullshit?

Basically, a lot of young men are being abandoned into a confusing vacuum.  And as they try to make sense of it, people who are looking at either making a buck, countering the feminist movement or both are happy to step in to fill the void of parenting and mainstream reinforcement to give those young men an ethos and purpose.

[David Dennison 18841]

The internet done fucked everything up.

[aggie08 21481]

Damn you, Al Gore!

[Iceman 2690]

Sons are 31 & 26, both married to educated women( masters in both cases) and with conservative fiscal values along with moderate social values.  They love competing with their peers in the workplace, for many of the reasons discussed in the thread.  
They both hate Trump and I credit the oldest for helping me see the light after 2016. There is ZERO chance yhey voted for him, but Gotdam! the alternative!!! That being said, some of what the left embraces fiscally ain’t real big in the win column for them.  Makes me wonder what their choices will be in 2028. 

[CooterBrown 18002]

6 minutes ago, Iceman said:

That being said, some of what the left embraces fiscally ain’t real big in the win column for them.  Makes me wonder what their choices will be in 2028. 

Oh, please do tell what those things are compared to what Dotard has already shown us fiscally from 2016-2020 and has stated for 2025 onward such as crashing the economy to rebuild it.

[Aqua Buddha 14581]

21 hours ago, Goredho said:

So I haven't fully read this thread, I am just going to share what I see happening in my nieces, nephews, my own kids and those in their social circles.  Not everything I mention is a super powerful force, but it is part of what I see funneling young men to dark places.

1.  There is a tremendous swell of positive mainstream content featuring empowered young girls/women.  Barbi shows an empowered woman navigating a less than perfect world, etc... 
2.  There is somewhat of a vacuum of positive mainstream content featuring young boys/men being good and navigating the world around them.  Even something like Deadpool vs Wolverine that likely appeals to young men more than young women, A) not exactly a model of behavior and B) not applicable to the modern world a young man lives in.
3.  Most families have both parents working with kids of all genders spending more time alone and more often than not, that time is spent online
4.  Pandemic isolation became a multiplier to the above context and drove more kids to be even more engaged online
5.  These kids basically are free to allow their mind able to wander an online world without supervision.  Its the psychological equivalent of dropping your kids off at the edge of Hong Kong and telling them to be home by supper.
6.  For boys, that online world is full of bad actors who are willing to fill the vacuum of parenting and mainstream content shaping to influence how boys and young/men think
7.  Young boys/men who are tolerant and respectful as individuals are being lumped in with all the young boys/men who are not and treated as part of a homogenous "Patriarchy".  They feel dammed if they do and dammed if they don't and it reinforces the bullshit getting injected into their heads online.  At that point, the young men are left to wonder -- is it really bullshit?

Basically, a lot of young men are being abandoned into a confusing vacuum.  And as they try to make sense of it, people who are looking at either making a buck, countering the feminist movement or both are happy to step in to fill the void of parenting and mainstream reinforcement to give those young men an ethos and purpose.

8.  Porn.  During their formative years, young boys are going down the wormhole of porn and as a result, don't know how to talk to an actual girl and end up as incels.  

[David Dennison 18841]

Just now, CooterBrown said:

Oh, please do tell what those things are compared to what Dotard has already shown us fiscally from 2016-2020 and has stated for 2025 onward such as crashing the economy to rebuild it.

Thankfully, Fox News will be there to tell the American people that Biden crashed the economy and that Trump is doing the hard work of rebuilding it.

[CooterBrown 18002]

4 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

8.  Porn.  During their formative years, young boys are going down the wormhole of porn and as a result, don't know how to talk to an actual girl and end up as incels.  

Some teacher friends have said they have 3rd and 4th grade boys that constantly brag about watching porn. 

[Iceman 2690]

13 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Oh, please do tell what those things are compared to what Dotard has already shown us fiscally from 2016-2020 and has stated for 2025 onward such as crashing the economy to rebuild it.

You missed the part where none of the 3 of us supports Trump.  Look down from your chart of canned responses and just read a post, sir...

The mindset of "That guy sucks shit through a straw, our sorry ass excuse of a plan is golden" is just as culpable in this whole discussion.

Edited November 13 by Iceman

[G650 14229]

5 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Some teacher friends have said they have 3rd and 4th grade boys that constantly brag about watching porn. 

Holy shit

[Iceman 2690]

Y'all didn't have porn stashes( phrasing) by that age?  I mean, we had Playboys and Hustlers for damn sure.

[safe sex 11696]

There's a big difference

[Iceman 2690]

2 minutes ago, safe sex said:

There's a big difference

Ok, so how does that play out in adulthood( the difference?)

In the scary movies thread, or "I was too young..."  there are accounts of folks watching movies they they most definitely were not mature enough to properly digest.  Given your background, I would like to hear why sexuality would impact kids differently than watching other types of movies too early.

I'm not advocating it, by any means, I'm just asking how different is it developmentally for young boys.

Edited November 13 by Iceman

[safe sex 11696]

Being exposed to copious amounts of pornography (porn that is exponentially more graphic and intense than anything in Hustler/Playboy) during some of a brain's most formative developmental years is going to give someone some really fucked up perceptions of how to view women, sex, and combining the two.

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

6 minutes ago, Iceman said:

Ok, so how does that play out in adulthood( the difference?)

In the scary movies thread, or "I was too young..."  there are accounts of folks watching movies they they most definitely were not mature enough to properly digest.  Given your background, I would like to hear why sexuality would impact kids differently than watching other types of movies too early.

I'm not advocating it, by any means, I'm just asking how different is it developmentally for young boys.

I’d guess most of what they’re watching involves women being subservient to men.  That, over and over, can certainly cement some ugly gender role norms for kids that age.  

[theaveragejon 988]

14 minutes ago, Iceman said:

You missed the part where none of the 3 of us supports Trump.  Look down from your chart of canned responses and just read a post, sir...

The mindset of "That guy sucks shit through a straw, our sorry ass excuse of a plan is golden" is just as culpable in this whole discussion.

What fiscally though? I’m in the same age as your sons (32). Had my first child the day after election, and the Harris child tax credit is something that I voted for. 
 

I see no financial benefit to me and my family in Trumps… concepts of plans. 

[Goredho 17394]

26 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

8.  Porn.  During their formative years, young boys are going down the wormhole of porn and as a result, don't know how to talk to an actual girl and end up as incels.  

Haven't personally seen that as a big issue with the youngins I drew my observations from, but I don't doubt that isn't a major issue for many.

[Goredho 17394]

22 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Some teacher friends have said they have 3rd and 4th grade boys that constantly brag about watching porn. 

Yeah, this is a symptom of being left alone to wander the intardnet without guidance/controls.  Porn is just one of the hawkers vying for young men's attention in their hours spent online.

[Aqua Buddha 14581]

12 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Some teacher friends have said they have 3rd and 4th grade boys that constantly brag about watching porn. 

3rd and 4th grade?  Good grief....

It's also the type of porn.  Back in the day, porn was basically a naked woman in a magazine.  Now, good lord.  It's everything.  Also, porn was hard to get.  "Porn in the woods."  You had to acquire it somehow through a friends older brother, literally finding it in the woods, etc.  Then you had to hide it from your parents.  All that for just a naked woman.

Now, it's all right there on your phone.  No wonder these young boys are screwed in the head.

I saw this as someone who is far from a sexual conservative but I'm also a grown man who was once a young boy.

[MissingInAction 25004]

I don't think I'd have survived the internet at age 14. 

[Hank Kingsley 20903]

I think Jonathan Haidt is generally correct that we underprotect kids at home and overprotect them out in the real world. 

 

[Royalfan5 2353]

25 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

3rd and 4th grade?  Good grief....

It's also the type of porn.  Back in the day, porn was basically a naked woman in a magazine.  Now, good lord.  It's everything.  Also, porn was hard to get.  "Porn in the woods."  You had to acquire it somehow through a friends older brother, literally finding it in the woods, etc.  Then you had to hide it from your parents.  All that for just a naked woman.

Now, it's all right there on your phone.  No wonder these young boys are screwed in the head.

I saw this as someone who is far from a sexual conservative but I'm also a grown man who was once a young boy.

I'd also posit that too much visual porn is consumed. Need to read some erotic stories to give folks a chance to leave something to the imagination, as well as illustrating that talking is a key component to going out and fucking. 

[Vegas64 673]

2 hours ago, theaveragejon said:

What fiscally though? I’m in the same age as your sons (32). Had my first child the day after election, and the Harris child tax credit is something that I voted for. 
 

I see no financial benefit to me and my family in Trumps… concepts of plans. 

I think it depends. What's that line Chris Rock says? It's wrong, but I understand it.

I didn't vote for Trump, but financially I understand it from those worried about taxes and wealth (and capital gains). People my age are worried about their money, not enshrining rights for great-grandchildren, unfortunately.

And 100% yes to everything said about porn. I would be surprised if that's not a near consensus in thought. But for some reason we hold the right of free porn as a bill of right, but I remember the old days referenced above. Mags, photos, dear penthouse imagination sexting, with the most graphic thing being Skinemax and then later the playboy channel.

[G650 14229]

Y'all haven't lived unless you knew how to decode the Spice channel with a remote on a Tocom box

[G650 14229]

On 11/12/2024 at 11:48 AM, Goredho said:

So I haven't fully read this thread, I am just going to share what I see happening in my nieces, nephews, my own kids and those in their social circles.  Not everything I mention is a super powerful force, but it is part of what I see funneling young men to dark places.

1.  There is a tremendous swell of positive mainstream content featuring empowered young girls/women.  Barbi shows an empowered woman navigating a less than perfect world, etc... 
2.  There is somewhat of a vacuum of positive mainstream content featuring young boys/men being good and navigating the world around them.  Even something like Deadpool vs Wolverine that likely appeals to young men more than young women, A) not exactly a model of behavior and B) not applicable to the modern world a young man lives in.
3.  Most families have both parents working with kids of all genders spending more time alone and more often than not, that time is spent online
4.  Pandemic isolation became a multiplier to the above context and drove more kids to be even more engaged online
5.  These kids basically are free to allow their mind able to wander an online world without supervision.  Its the psychological equivalent of dropping your kids off at the edge of Hong Kong and telling them to be home by supper.
6.  For boys, that online world is full of bad actors who are willing to fill the vacuum of parenting and mainstream content shaping to influence how boys and young/men think
7.  Young boys/men who are tolerant and respectful as individuals are being lumped in with all the young boys/men who are not and treated as part of a homogenous "Patriarchy".  They feel dammed if they do and dammed if they don't and it reinforces the bullshit getting injected into their heads online.  At that point, the young men are left to wonder -- is it really bullshit?

Basically, a lot of young men are being abandoned into a confusing vacuum.  And as they try to make sense of it, people who are looking at either making a buck, countering the feminist movement or both are happy to step in to fill the void of parenting and mainstream reinforcement to give those young men an ethos and purpose.

 

Good post as always.

 

My main impetus in starting the thread in the first place, other than it's a serious subject and we had mentioned coming back to it after the election, is that I completely admit to being out of touch on most of this stuff, and with a son who is growing up, pretty concerned. I have felt alienated from mainstream America for quite some time, but with this subject it's not really alienation as just some for of bafflement as I feel like I really don't get the motivations of a lot of these kids. It's just completely foreign to me and my experiences. I guess one other thing is the younger guys I do know are not necessarily like this, the have good jobs, starting families etc..., so probably some self selecting deal going on with who I'm around. The one exception is my old neighbor's kid, who is probably 22 or so now, lives at home, not really any plans. But frankly the kid is an idiot so I don't use him as a data point on someone left behind.

 

The internet thing is real for sure. I am astounded at some of the stories here. My son is very much monitored on the internet, and will be till he is grown. Giving a child free reign on the interwebs is the most insane thing I've ever heard.

[Dnaguy 11916]

I work in engineering and currently work with some youngins. Here is what I glean from professional class GenZ:

1.) A lot more women. That Stem focus for girls in the 2000’s worked. That’s good!

2.) But with this, comes a weird sense of entitlement. Now I’m all for allowing discussion, getting all sides, etc. But a 1st year female EIT giving their opinion on how a project should be run makes my blood boil. Just work. Put your head down and hustle. You don’t have the experience or knowledge to speak up in a large meeting. Shut up, nod your head, and churn. That speaks louder than any words.

3.) The younger male engineers seemed unmoored. They don’t seem all that ambitious. I know we millennials got so much shit for the same things but there is an element of ‘why bust my ass, shut is borked’ anywayism. I’ve been told multiple times of guys not dating bc they feel they can’t measure up. They feel the standards that girls place on them are too high so why try. This comes across as lazy. And entitled in its own way. They don’t know where to fit in society. They see macho culture as an easier time. What they don’t realize is that time of single income families produced a lot of drunk and absent dads who beat the shit out of you. Moms on uppers or downers to kill the soul crushing emptiness of the same shit every day. Not so great!

4.) They feel poor. Even with great jobs, they feel squeezed. They don’t know if they ever will buy a house. And they have social media selling snake oil and get rich quick bs. Again, they don’t know how to hustle.
5.) Their whole life has been post 9/11. And that’s why I cut them some slack. Just think about growing up in a time of fear like that? School shootings? Yep. Financial crisis? Yep. Covid? Yep. Donald Trump has been around for half their life. He’s the norm! They’ve got culture PTSD. 

 

Edited November 13 by Dnaguy

[MissingInAction 25004]

If you're having trouble meeting women then get a dog. Train it so you can bring it to dog friendly bars. 

Women will flock to you. I give my dog direct credit for 75% of the women I've met over the past 7 years. The other 25% me just being a sexy bitch.

[Goredho 17394]

Just now, MissingInAction said:

If you're having trouble meeting women then get a dog. Train it so you can bring it to dog friendly bars. 

Women will flock to you. I give my dog direct credit for 75% of the women I've met over the past 7 years. The other 25% me just being a sexy bitch.

So 75% of it is that your dog is a sexy bitch?  Impressive!

[MissingInAction 25004]

Just now, Goredho said:

So 75% of it is that your dog is a sexy bitch?  Impressive!

 

[Goredho 17394]

1 minute ago, MissingInAction said:

 

[Don Johnson 4752]

3 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

And 100% yes to everything said about porn. I would be surprised if that's not a near consensus in thought. But for some reason we hold the right of free porn as a bill of right, but I remember the old days referenced above.

You'd be wrong.

 

[Dnaguy 11916]

This dude on tick tock or YouTube or whatever  (hoemath) a lot of content spiels on  dating dynamics now…. Which I Feel like were mostly always true but the dynamics of women getting to be on equal economic footing has really thrown a wrench into dating that I don’t think we’ve really hashed out yet. This plays into the aggrieved young male dynamic. 

 

 
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8LPhssV/

[Vegas64 673]

8 hours ago, G650 said:

My son is very much monitored on the internet, and will be till he is grown. Giving a child free reign on the interwebs is the most insane thing I've ever heard.

This is true but it's also privilege, we shouldn't lose sight of that.

The working class and the middle class who have two working parents and limited child-care SOMETIMES can't help but to leave kids at home unattended and use YouTube as a babysitter. And YouTube is algorithmically built to be addictive and the greatest attention sucking babysitter ever.

I have a running rule that my grandkids are NOT allowed any ipads or technology when in public. I know it makes it harder for those around us at an airport or a restaurant, but that is how children learn how to behave. You go through those growing pains. Just giving kids a digital pacifier is how you end up with 20-somethings with the massive blindspots and using technology as an emotional support animal.

So, sorry for the outbursts and noise and public discipline but long-term it's better for society. Which is also why I'm way more gracious to parents doing the same thing in public and it tugs at my heart to see kids given their well-worn, rubber-coated tablets.

Edited November 14 by Vegas64

[TwiceHorn 31435]

12 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

8.  Porn.  During their formative years, young boys are going down the wormhole of porn and as a result, don't know how to talk to an actual girl and end up as incels.  

Well, and sometimes they do talk to a girl, then brutally face fuck her, ass fuck her, and jizz in her face.  It's all down hill from there.

[Dnaguy 11916]

8 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, and sometimes they do talk to a G̶i̶r̶l̶ stepmom or stepsis , then brutally face fuck her, ass fuck her, and jizz in her face.  It's all down hill from there.

Fify 

[Iceman 2690]

We watched the hell out of Faces of Death and shit like that as kids.

Buffalo Bills we became...the lot of us.
 

I get it that we want to limit the input/ bullshit, but watching porn hardly determines that a dude is gonna treat women like shit.  The examples they see in the home/ in real life might be SLIGHTLY more impactful.  Just maybe.

I played GTA like a motherfucker.  Still have never stolen a car. Neither did my friends. Weird.

Edited November 14 by Iceman

[G650 14229]

20 minutes ago, Iceman said:

  Still have never stolen a car. Neither did my friends. Weird.

Nerd

[TwiceHorn 31435]

2 hours ago, Dnaguy said:

Fify 

I thought about adding a dryer in there somewhere.

But seriously, I think porn and adolescent sexuality are a bad mix in ways more serious than other "bad influences."

[TwiceHorn 31435]

19 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I thought about adding a dryer in there somewhere.

But seriously, I think porn and adolescent sexuality are a bad mix in ways more serious than other "bad influences."

Shit, I had a cc change and my treefiddy status went away, I need to fix that.  Anyway, for violent video games and music and such, even the most immature adolescent has a frame of reference for reality/non-reality and right/wrong.  That is very much less true for sexual behavior and norms.

[Sawbonz 27527]

1 hour ago, Iceman said:

played GTA like a motherfucker.  Still have never stolen a car. Neither did my friends. Weird

[Rex Kramer 1331]

On 11/13/2024 at 8:51 AM, safe sex said:

Being exposed to copious amounts of pornography (porn that is exponentially more graphic and intense than anything in Hustler/Playboy) during some of a brain's most formative developmental years is going to give someone some really fucked up perceptions of how to view women, sex, and combining the two.