What Went Wrong With Young Men

[MissingInAction 25548]

@Frank Drebin is very very stupid.

[aggie08 21784]

5 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Your political party is entirely grievance oriented.

Holy shit, pot kettle.

[washparkhorn 9972]

The Alex P. Keaton persona rebirthed. History rhymes, over and over again.  

 

 

[C-Man 27775]

6 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Your political party is entirely grievance oriented.

That's fucking rich. For all the teeth-gnashing and railing against Kamala's alleged lack of a platform, Trump's entire message was grievance this, grievance that.

[Royalfan5 2384]

Going off the young guys in my office, the first step for them to having success with women would be to interested in spending time with one or talking about their interests. I'm surprised how high of a hurdle that is these days. 

[RomaVicta 30552]

6 minutes ago, Muny_Tex said:

Maybe positioning AOC, Nancy Pelosi, Michelle Obama, and Taylor Swift as the face of the party does not resonate with young (non gay) insecure men.

Suggested change for accuracy.

[Vertuzzi 1426]

2 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Well when I was going out all the time in my 20s, social media didn't exist. Texting/FaceTiming didn't exist. I couldn't see hot single ladies on my phone. I couldn't go online and play video games with friends all night (thank god). You wanna hang with friends and talk to girls? You had to go out somewhere.

There was nothing else to do BUT be social. 

I don’t think this is as big of an issue as you make it out to be. I’m in my late 20s and I go out to bars in Boston and they are full of young people socializing. Sure, there are people on their phones but that’s just the reality of our modern society. Young people have to balance socializing in person and digitally. I don’t think this has anything to do with their voting preferences. We have to dig much deeper into why we are seeing young men leaning more conservative. 

[G650 14435]

Just now, Royalfan5 said:

Going off the young guys in my office, the first step for them to having success with women would be to interested in spending time with one or talking about their interests. I'm surprised how high of a hurdle that is these days. 

This is what I've seen as well.

[Aqua Buddha 14802]

17 minutes ago, vicerous said:

Plain English had a great episode on this a few weeks ago.

 

This should be required listening.  It's not just going on in America.

[G650 14435]

1 minute ago, Vertuzzi said:

I don’t think this is as big of an issue as you make it out to be. I’m in my late 20s and I go out to bars in Boston and they are full of young people socializing. Sure, there are people on their phones but that’s just the reality of our modern society. Young people have to balance socializing in person and digitally. I don’t think this has anything to do with their voting preferences. We have to dig much deeper into why we are seeing young men leaning more conservative. 

I'm glad you posted and would love to hear your takes.

[Hank Kingsley 21685]

If growing older has taught me anything, it's that women are fucking amazing. He's only 7 but I'm passing that fact down to my son right now. 

 

[ztejas 44181]

9 minutes ago, G650 said:

Another point that is brought up that stupifies me. What 18 year old dude wants to have fucking kids. It's like the single outcome you avoid at all costs.

At what age should you have kids then? We are all hard wired to procreate. How do you marry that with procreation not only not being necessary but being disadvantageous?

[G650 14435]

Just now, ztejas said:

At what age should you have kids then? We are all hard wired to procreate. How do you marry that with procreation not only not being necessary but being disadvantageous?

 

Should? I don't know. I can tell you I did at 37. At 18 I was trying to nail anything that moved.

[TKthunder2 5058]

32 minutes ago, Firemans4Horn said:

Scott Galloway has spent a lot of time looking into it

Was just coming to post this.

 

[Okie State 3888]

53 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Maybe they got tired of their sons, fathers, husbands, and brothers being shit on by woke leftists?  I know plenty that feel that way in my circle.  

How weak of a man do you have to be to believe this is a thing. Holy shit. Pathetic.

[DigglerontheHoof 21548]

Just now, Okie State said:

How weak of a man do you have to be to believe this is a thing. Holy shit. Pathetic.

He's a piece-of-shit Christian.  That's all their ilk knows. 

[bad_teammate 13488]

The idea that 16+yo men want to just get laid and booze and party their whole lives is not a description of the real lives of human beings but a telling of a Gen X pseudo-memory. A Gen X that sired these exact young men being lamented currently. Built these young men's' worlds around them and now loathe their creation for exactly what it was destined to become.

[RomaVicta 30552]

1 minute ago, Royalfan5 said:

Going off the young guys in my office, the first step for them to having success with women would be to interested in spending time with one or talking about their interests. I'm surprised how high of a hurdle that is these days. 

Well, this is a whole 'nother topic for me. I think a lot of that is sidetracked by the promotion of the lowest common denominator of what a "guy" is. It's an appeal to insecurity and conformity which have always been part of male development. Be sensitive, and you're a fag. Be intellectual and you're a nerd. Bother to talk about women in other than purely sexual contexts, and you reveal yourself as very non-guy.

Sportscasters generally represent this shit as a profession. Not all of the them, but most of them. These big tough former athletes tremble in fear of being something other than a guy. There used be things called men. 

[ultimaton 2985]

 

38 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

Here's the thing though, none of that remotely mattered to me when I was that age, or practically anyone I knew. Our self worth was defined in so many other different ways. Hell, as an 18 year old 90% of my thought was how do I get laid and how much booze can I drink. 9% was playing guitar and 1% was making sure I had enough money to support the previous goals.

 

The way young guys are wholly unable to relate to women now is just baffling to me. I talk to younger women all the time, they haven't really changed much. The guys have. The whole incel phenomenon is real and I still can't comprehend it.

Well you didn't have a constantly barrage of social media and youtube algorirthms force feeding you a firehouse of bullshit telling you that you were a failure if you didn't have a house, a dutiful stay-at-home wife, four kids, and two paid-off cars by age 22. You weren't constantly being compared to influencers and a mythical version of your grandparents in a way that made it seem like your life was over well before it even got started. 

[Frank Drebin 5834]

1 minute ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

He's a piece-of-shit Christian.  That's all their ilk knows. 

Opinions vary.  And none of yours or your ilk's matter to me.

[hpslugga 4097]

57 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

Maybe they got tired of their sons, fathers, husbands, and brothers being shit on by woke leftists?  I know plenty that feel that way in my circle.  

There’s that phrase again

[G650 14435]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

The idea that 16+yo men want to just get laid and booze and party their whole lives is not a description of the real lives of human beings but a telling of a Gen X pseudo-memory.

Then present a counter narrative. I lived it, as did all the generations before me. It's not a Gen X thing, it's a teenage male thing. Or was apparently. You drug your way through school days to get to the nights. You snuck out of your parents house to see your friends. Nabbed a handle of rum if you could. Played in a rock band. Smoked some weed. That was existence.

 

We grew up. I got married eventually, had a kid I love. Run a business now. Life is good. And it's because I'm a product of a healthy youth experience.

[Ragde 259]

9 minutes ago, G650 said:

I'm glad you posted and would love to hear your takes.

Its the new rebellion.

[G650 14435]

4 minutes ago, ultimaton said:

 

Well you didn't have a constantly barrage of social media and youtube algorirthms force feeding you a firehouse of bullshit telling you that you were a failure if you didn't have a house, a dutiful stay-at-home wife, four kids, and two paid-off cars by age 22. You weren't constantly being compared to influencers and a mythical version of your grandparents in a way that made it seem like your life was over well before it even got started. 

I know. It's a problem. What's the answer because phones aren't going away. And who is feeding kids that kind of shit anyway?

[DanTheHorn 5078]

55 minutes ago, Helobious said:

Very true. People love to feel like they’re victims of something, young males are no exception.

 

[MissingInAction 25548]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The idea that 16+yo men want to just get laid and booze and party their whole lives is not a description of the real lives of human beings but a telling of a Gen X pseudo-memory. A Gen X that sired these exact young men being lamented currently. Built these young men's' worlds around them and now loathe their creation for exactly what it was destined to become.

You need to get laid.

[BearSchlong 8238]

Opinions vary.  And none of yours or your ilk's matter to me.

Yours matters to me, as I am genuinely curious.

You're one of the people with whom I strongly disagree on many things, but I imagine many of my friends are very similar in terms of lifestyle.

[Ben Tobin 374]

They've never had it remotely difficult in life, ever. A hard day's work and a shot of whiskey would kill most of them dead as fried chicken

[Firemans4Horn 18502]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

I know. It's a problem. What's the answer because phones aren't going away. And who is feeding kids that kind of shit anyway?

the mag 7 companies, China (TikTok), Russia. Get people to hate themselves and others and tell them the system is broken. 

[LTbear 4212]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

 

No, it's more than that. There is something deeply wrong. They are falling behind in attainment compared to women, rates of depression are through the roof, general failure to launch. It's an issue that's been lurking for quite some time.

I agree with all that. I was speaking purely in terms of their rightward swing electorally.

[Aqua Buddha 14802]

17 minutes ago, Royalfan5 said:

Going off the young guys in my office, the first step for them to having success with women would be to interested in spending time with one or talking about their interests. I'm surprised how high of a hurdle that is these days. 

As a Gen X'er, my entire life in my teens and 20's was getting girls.  It's what motivated me to do everything from get a car, have money, go to college, get a better job, etc.  I wanted girls or better girls.

Now, for whatever reason, these young boys aren't motivated to get a girl.  My theory is that it's porn.  While they still may have the urges, they don't know how to talk to an actual girl.  They have a sexual and economic entitlement and when they can't get laid and see women doing better, they get angry.

I'll be a conservative here for a second.  After porn, another factor is the lack of real father figures and as a result, you learn about "masculinity" from some dickhead on a podcast. 

[G650 14435]

Just now, Aqua Buddha said:

As a Gen X'er, my entire life in my teens and 20's was getting girls.  It's what motivated me to do everything from get a car, have money, go to college, get a better job, etc.  I wanted girls or better girls.

Yeah, I just said that and bad teammate told me it was a fever dream

[Vertuzzi 1426]

4 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Well, this is a whole 'nother topic for me. I think a lot of that is sidetracked by the promotion of the lowest common denominator of what a "guy" is. It's an appeal to insecurity and conformity which have always been part of male development. Be sensitive, and you're a fag. Be intellectual and you're a nerd. Bother to talk about women in other than purely sexual contexts, and you reveal yourself as very non-guy.

Sportscasters generally represent this shit as a profession. Not all of the them, but most of them. These big tough former athletes tremble in fear of being something other than a guy. There used be things called men. 

You bring up an interesting point about the idea of what a guy is. The women in my circle of friends (ages 25-31) are not as anti-masculine as many may believe they are. They are looking for men to step up and take charge, to make them feel safe and comfortable, and to not be afraid to be their authentic selves. But they also expect to be respected and listened to, and to have an equal say. It’s by no means an unreasonable expectation. I think most men my age understand that being masculine isn’t necessarily the issue, it’s more about developing more empathy and the ability to self-reflect on what kind of impact you are having on the people around you. I can only speak for my group of friends in the city that I live in. Maybe it differs for young men in Tampa. 

[Royalfan5 2384]

1 minute ago, Aqua Buddha said:

As a Gen X'er, my entire life in my teens and 20's was getting girls.  It's what motivated me to do everything from get a car, have money, go to college, get a better job, etc.  I wanted girls or better girls.

Now, for whatever reason, these young boys aren't motivated to get a girl.  My theory is that it's porn.  While they still may have the urges, they don't know how to talk to an actual girl.  They have a sexual and economic entitlement and when they can't get laid and see women doing better, they get angry.

I'll be a conservative here for a second.  After porn, another factor is the lack of real father figures and as a result, you learn about "masculinity" from some dickhead on a podcast. 

On the last note, I'll say that I was really luck that when my dad died when I was 6 months old, I had two grandfathers and a whole slew of Uncles that took it upon themselves to set mostly good examples. 

[G650 14435]

4 minutes ago, Vertuzzi said:

it’s more about developing more empathy and the ability to self-reflect on what kind of impact you are having on the people around you

100%

[LTbear 4212]

1 hour ago, Frank Drebin said:

Is that really true?  Seems like women have more mental issues (and especially liberal women but that's another topic).

 

Historically women have always had higher rates of mental issues (in part, I'm sure, to higher willingness to report), but the rates among men have been rising for years. 

[bad_teammate 13488]

Gen X men talking about their lives as if it were Dazed & Confused should reflect on the deep and profound privilege they had at the time to be so certain that their futures were secured and that nothing in their lives mattered as much as girls and drugs. Not all generations had that certainty, including the current one we are all so superior to. Gen X doesn't really do much beyond stare at itself lovingly in the mirror, though. (Also, the implication that young men today are more socially regressive than young men were in the 60s-80s is hilariously stupid, but the rose-colored light reflecting off the mirror is forever blinding.)

I would guarantee that the young men pulling levers for Trump are more socially progressive and open-minded than those who pulled the levers for Kennedy. The issue is not social. It's the economy, stupid.

 

[Frank Drebin 5834]

What's wrong with unmarried women?  

 

[WBT 20959]

1 hour ago, immamac said:

What went wrong with white women? 

White men and women shifted marginally away from Trump vs 2020

[RabidM 2755]

5 minutes ago, Frank Drebin said:

What's wrong with unmarried women?  

 

I would image unmarried women are statistically more likely to need bodily autonomy.

[EuroHorn 3290]

My guess is that young people are more comfortable with people who are different than them.  What they hear from older adults calling broad groups racists, misogynists, nazis, etc., doesn’t compute with their life experiences and it’s a big turnoff. 

[Vertuzzi 1426]

32 minutes ago, G650 said:

I'm glad you posted and would love to hear your takes.

I’m reading a lot of posts here discussing how young men are too cowardly to interact with women and have become incels. While that certainly exists, it’s not as large of an issue imo as many are making it out to be. My perspective for why young men seem to be leaning more conservative is that they feel disconnected to identity politics as a whole. I think that if identity politics wasn’t such a large pillar of the Dem’s political agenda, you would see more young men sticking around the party. In my experience discussing politics with my friends, many feel it’s crazy to be worrying about identity politics when we have a ballooning government deficit with no end in sight, increased geopolitical tensions on just about every continent but North America, and continued economic pressures here at home. They feel like the Democratic Party has their priorities set on shit that just doesn’t matter relative to the other issues we are dealing with. These are not necessarily my views; however, I think it’s important to listen to their perspectives considering Trump just swept the popular vote, electoral college, the Senate, and are likely to win the House. I think just blatantly dismissing their perspectives has landed us in this situation and will only continue to grow the divide further. 

[ztejas 44181]

35 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

Should? I don't know. I can tell you I did at 37. At 18 I was trying to nail anything that moved.

Sex has a biological function. It isn't like smoking weed or drinking. 

And - shocker alert - women that you repeatedly have sex with will want kids. They are extremely hard-wired to do so. My fucking 19-year-old girlfriend hit me with a "do you think we're going to get married and have kids?" when we were... 19.

You're acting like casual sex and having kids isn't related when it is 100% related. It kind of feels better when you're not wearing a condom and the possibility of conception is more real.

[StassneyHorn 6763]

Social Media extends the high school popularity contest past adolescence into young adulthood and even into middle aged/married life. Constantly comparing your boring everyday life to 100s of people you have met over the years and viewing only their achievements/trips that get posted online creates a sense of falling behind, while never exposing their daily hardships.

And then the elephant in the room. Liberal college educated white women are mostly not fun to be around. Just like non college educated white men are broken. Both sides cannot pass up any undue inconvenience without blaming either white males for the world’s problems or DEI bullshit for why they aren’t where they want to be in life.

[ztejas 44181]

11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Gen X men talking about their lives as if it were Dazed & Confused should reflect on the deep and profound privilege they had at the time to be so certain that their futures were secured and that nothing in their lives mattered as much as girls and drugs. Not all generations had that certainty, including the current one we are all so superior to. Gen X doesn't really do much beyond stare at itself lovingly in the mirror, though. (Also, the implication that young men today are more socially regressive than young men were in the 60s-80s is hilariously stupid, but the rose-colored light reflecting off the mirror is forever blinding.)

I would guarantee that the young men pulling levers for Trump are more socially progressive and open-minded than those who pulled the levers for Kennedy. The issue is not social. It's the economy, stupid.

 

Spitting facts.

My only add would be that it isn't just the economy - that technology is ruining us (or shaping us?) and turning us into something different than the shit-flinging apes that we've been for 500 thousand years and it's an awkward transition. 

(If anyone really wants to get off the map there's also the possibility that we were genetically modified or test-tubed and as a result are more prone to this tech/human merging rubicon)

[Biff Tannen 46147]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

We're becoming transhuman and it's flipping a lot of traditional roles and values on their heads. If we even make it it's going to be a bumpy transition because it's happening too quickly. 

I think that coupled with single males not having enough money to spend on women let alone have kids explains about 99% of it. 

Also all of their genders and sexualities are weirdly and artificially (imo) fucked up. Which I'm fine with from a human rights perspective but I'm not sure it's healthy or optimal for a functioning society. 

A lot of truth here

[Chuckie Finster 23035]

I know many on here disagreed about my insistence that she do it, but the Joe Rogan interview is a good summation.

The goal was never to "win" the interview, it was to show young men that you are at least attempting to reach out to them.  

It's obvious that it wouldn't have mattered in the long run, but "Kamala had time for SNL but not for Rogan" is a hell of a confirmation for what a lot of them currently think about the Democratic party.

Edited November 6 by Chuckie Finster

[G650 14435]

4 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Sex has a biological function.

You don't say.

[Biff Tannen 46147]

47 minutes ago, ztejas said:

At what age should you have kids then? We are all hard wired to procreate. How do you marry that with procreation not only not being necessary but being disadvantageous?

I’m 42 and neither me or my wife want kids. 

[G650 14435]

16 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

including the current one we are all so superior to.

I'm pretty sure no one is coming to this from a place of superiority. I mostly worry about what my son is going to have to deal with as he grows up.