Non-partisan "Fuck the Status Quo" Thread of Dominance

[Hank Kingsley 20903]

I sense this is probably not gonna work out, but wanted to try to start a discussion thread about our overall politics, culture, issues, and the upcoming Trump term in good faith. If others are open to it, let's avoid the hysterics, name calling, and overly judgmental rhetoric to discuss issues and news as liberals/conservatives/none of the above, Trump or anti-Trump supporters.  Maybe something good will come out of it, even if it's just in this community. 

I am not a Democrat. I tend to vote very heavy towards Democrats in this landscape. I hate the two party system. I have a set of personal values, and that dictates my positions, not party lines. I admit that the result of this election saddens me, but it's a relief that it was a clear and indisputable decision. The people have spoken. I think that opens the door to clear minds and introspection. 

I think we can all agree that we live in troubling times as a society and the future is very hazy. Can't depend on government and politicians to figure it out. It's on us. 

No trolling. If you have a strong position, present it. We can argue. Let's be patient with each other and not run off posters. I will genuinely listen and process and be thoughtful with replies. Join me. 

[BurntEyes 5954]

So I'll pipe in here. I take a lot of issues with both sides of the table. When I get time I'm happy to elaborate, but in short I avoid submitting anything here as my politics don't fall in line with either sides platform entirely. As such, as a silent non-affliate I fear being shouted down for not being on one side or the other.

That's a shitty feeling. 

That thinking independently about issues outside party lines, having critiques and issues with both is now hated on by both sides.

It really does suck. I had opinions during and prior to election watching these threads and stood silent as I was pretty sure I'd just be shit on. 

I am of the opinion that largely, most US citizens are still good people. I'm of the opinion that the 2 party system truly sucks. I'm of the opinion that my ideas which falls to various sides on various topics is now the outcast. 

I hate that. For a little background my father immigrated from Italy where he grew up during WWII. Yeah.. seriously. I have a Jewish step father, a Mexican immigrant step mother and a mom who was pro-women and civil rights in the 60s. One married to an Italian immigrant. One who grew up dirt poor. Who's own father shit on her for not being racist. 

I don't think this country is broken, I think our political system is broken. 

I'd love to be able to engage in conversations, not team red or blue matching order shouting matches.

But... even in typing this.. I'm sadly confident I'm going to be shit on here. 

Which really does suck, because I'm of the opinion that addressing the Corporate Oligarchy and other issues the US has faces requires all of us to come together, as one people, and stop shitting on folks from the other team. Don't let The Prince be the book we play in.. let IT be the book we mock but don't burn. 

I'm willing to try, because I'm willing to die trying. 

[G650 14229]

1 minute ago, BurntEyes said:

but in short I avoid submitting anything here as my politics don't fall in line with either sides platform entirely. As such, as a silent non-affliate I fear being shouted down for not being on one side or the other.

 

I mean, I don't either, but I have never felt shouted down.

[Macanudo 12974]

Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool and.....  fuck you.

But I guess a truce is OK too.

[hobbes2702 13028]

3 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, you're cool and.....  fuck you.

But I guess a truce is OK too.

All time challenge moment right there 

[royiv 9236]

7 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Which really does suck, because I'm of the opinion that addressing the Corporate Oligarchy and other issues the US has faces requires all of us to come together, as one people, and stop shitting on folks from the other team. Don't let The Prince be the book we play in.. let IT be the book we mock but don't burn. 

I'm willing to try, because I'm willing to die trying. 

Please define what corporate oligarchy means to you. Are you referencing large banks, tech companies, etc? Do you include the actual individual oligarchs that exist in our present day society?

[BurntEyes 5954]

6 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

I mean, I don't either, but I have never felt shouted down.

So, I'm wrong in my perception that having non-party line ideas that fall on both sides of the teams is openly accepted? 

[BurntEyes 5954]

Just now, royiv said:

Please define what corporate oligarchy means to you. Are you referencing large banks, tech companies, etc? Do you include the actual individual oligarchs that exist in our present day society?

Yes. From the Koch Brothers to Bloomberg, from Elon to Bill, from Amazon to Lockhead.

[royiv 9236]

1 minute ago, BurntEyes said:

So, I'm wrong in my perception that having non-party line ideas that fall on both sides of the teams is openly accepted? 

If you come with well thought out positions and, if needed, sources that aren’t one-sided propaganda, yes. Start bringing in obvious sources of mis and disinformation and you’ll be shouted down pretty quickly. 

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 minute ago, BurntEyes said:

So, I'm wrong in my perception that having non-party line ideas that fall on both sides of the teams is openly accepted? 

No one here loves everything the side they vote for does.  But if you chose a side, then yes you may or may not be shouted down, called names, and ridiculed from the board.  Last 8 years of CR out front should have told you. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21167]

[wildcat09 29337]

15 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

I mean, I don't either, but I have never felt shouted down.

Some people are cowards.

[G650 14229]

3 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

So, I'm wrong in my perception that having non-party line ideas that fall on both sides of the teams is openly accepted? 

As long as you come with solid facts and reasoning, sure. Most of us do I would posit. I wouldn't get caught up in the couple vociferous posters, they operate in volume, not in numbers.

 

Plus you should see the internecine brawls here. Gaza, etc...

[Celery Man 20929]

I am going to try and be less bothered. Despite things I have said previously, I don’t actually think most Americans are bad people. I am incredibly discouraged by how seemingly decent and even well educated people can fall for such incredible foolishness. I can’t see a way towards understanding stuff like trans or bathroom hysteria or the notion of putting RFK in charge of the FDA or letting defense contractors run government efficiency or any of the nakedly corrupt and hateful positions as anything but that - foolishness in the cases it isn’t actually evil.

 

But I don’t actually think most Americans are evil. If you religious folks look at conservative politics and see a reflection of Galatians 5:22, I’ll try and empathize with that being the world that you see and understand that that’s where you’re coming from. I don’t get it, but whatever - it is unequivocally what won this round so I hope you all are correct.

[Stinkpalm 687]

8 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

So I'll pipe in here. I take a lot of issues with both sides of the table. When I get time I'm happy to elaborate, but in short I avoid submitting anything here as my politics don't fall in line with either sides platform entirely. As such, as a silent non-affliate I fear being shouted down for not being on one side or the other.

That's a shitty feeling. 

That thinking independently about issues outside party lines, having critiques and issues with both is now hated on by both sides.

It really does suck. I had opinions during and prior to election watching these threads and stood silent as I was pretty sure I'd just be shit on. 

I am of the opinion that largely, most US citizens are still good people. I'm of the opinion that the 2 party system truly sucks. I'm of the opinion that my ideas which falls to various sides on various topics is now the outcast. 

I hate that. For a little background my father immigrated from Italy where he grew up during WWII. Yeah.. seriously. I have a Jewish step father, a Mexican immigrant step mother and a mom who was pro-women and civil rights in the 60s. One married to an Italian immigrant. One who grew up dirt poor. Who's own father shit on her for not being racist. 

I don't think this country is broken, I think our political system is broken. 

I'd love to be able to engage in conversations, not team red or blue matching order shouting matches.

But... even in typing this.. I'm sadly confident I'm going to be shit on here. 

Which really does suck, because I'm of the opinion that addressing the Corporate Oligarchy and other issues the US has faces requires all of us to come together, as one people, and stop shitting on folks from the other team. Don't let The Prince be the book we play in.. let IT be the book we mock but don't burn. 

I'm willing to try, because I'm willing to die trying. 

My post would literally say the exact same thing. All of it. Even the Italian immigrant dad, Jewish step-dad, Mexican step-mom stuff.
 

But seriously, I’d love for a legitimate 3rd party to jump into the mix and break up the “us vs them” mindset the nation has now, and force both sides to rein it in and work together a little more. But that’s not going to happen. 

[royiv 9236]

2 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Yes. From the Koch Brothers to Bloomberg, from Elon to Bill, from Amazon to Lockhead.

Got it. Thanks for adding some detail. I would agree with you that emphasis on wealth accumulation and adulation of oligarchs is a big problem in this country. Both political parties have either enacted policies to accelerate this issue or haven’t enacted policies to address it. I don’t know how we get both sides to come together to address it, especially given who we just elected as President, but I’m all ears on suggestions. Until this issue is effectively addressed, the middle class is going to get squeezed and crapped on and we’re going to fall deeper and deeper into the populist nationalist hole and it’s going to be hard to dig out.

[wildcat09 29337]

Just now, Celery Man said:

I am going to try and be less bothered. Despite things I have said previously, I don’t actually think most Americans are bad people. I am incredibly discouraged by how seemingly decent and even well educated people can fall for such incredible foolishness. I can’t see a way towards understanding stuff like trans or bathroom hysteria or the notion of putting RFK in charge of the FDA or letting defense contractors run government efficiency or any of the nakedly corrupt and hateful positions as anything but that - foolishness in the cases it isn’t actually evil.

 

But I don’t actually think most Americans are evil. If you religious folks look at conservative politics and see a reflection of Galatians 5:22, I’ll try and empathize with that being the world that you see and understand that that’s where you’re coming from. I don’t get it, but whatever - it is unequivocally what won this round so I hope you all are correct.

I agree with this in a sense, but I'm also positive it's about to become evil.  These people who listened to everything Trump said and all the warnings from political scientists and historians and Trump's own prior entire fucking cabinet and went "naw I don't think he'll do all that" and voted for him genuinely believe he won't do all the evil shit he ran on. But he will and when confronted with that fact they'll twist into pretzels first denying it, then rationalizing it, then finally justifying it. That's just how human psychology works.   

[Chad Fuck 17658]

Just now, royiv said:

Got it. Thanks for adding some detail. I would agree with you that emphasis on wealth accumulation and adulation of oligarchs is a big problem in this country. Both political parties have either enacted policies to accelerate this issue or haven’t enacted policies to address it. I don’t know how we get both sides to come together to address it, especially given who we just elected as President, but I’m all ears on suggestions. Until this issue is effectively addressed, the middle class is going to get squeezed and crapped on and we’re going to fall deeper and deeper into the populist nationalist hole and it’s going to be hard to dig out.

This was our concern, dude.

[Hank Kingsley 20903]

Coming in hot. 

Politically, I believe abortion should be legal with no restrictions. Simple as that. 

Personally, I think it would be ideal if abortion numbers decrease significantly. It has nothing to do with religion for me. It's because abortion, I assume,  is a terrible thing for a person to go through, and I don't want other people to suffer physically or mentally. I do think Buttigeg was eloquent in his defense of late term abortions with a perspective that needs to be considered more often. A lot of people have already bought a crib or picked out a name. It can be devastating for a family to make that decision, but is THEIR decision. They have to live with it, not us. 

So how do we get abortion numbers down?

I think sex education is important. Why are we pretending we can shield kids from this stuff when modern technology literally guides us to porn? It's just openly posted on Twitter at this point. If you were to type in  "Mark Kelly" in the search button , there's a decent chance that if you scroll down you'll see a video of some dude name Mark fucking a girl named Kelly in the ass. It's ridiculous. 

I think contraception and pregnancy tests should be incredibly cheap, if not free. Happy to hear more detailed suggestions. 

We need to make it very easy and inexpensive for women to go to the doctor in a timely fashion. 

Streamline and speed up the adoption process. Properly incentivize people that will carry to term. 

I know there are many other things that can help, these are just some initial offerings and I'm no expert. 

For those that are anti-abortion due to religious beliefs, I just think that sex is literally a part of our existence and that religion is a social construct. I respect your personal beliefs and for you to live your lives in accordance, as long as you're not harming others.  It's impossible to determine the circumstances and lived experience of others, let them safely make their own decision.

[David Dennison 18837]

I don't vote for Republicans. Ever. For anything.

Done.

[G650 14229]

5 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I am going to try and be less bothered. Despite things I have said previously, I don’t actually think most Americans are bad people. I am incredibly discouraged by how seemingly decent and even well educated people can fall for such incredible foolishness. I can’t see a way towards understanding stuff like trans or bathroom hysteria or the notion of putting RFK in charge of the FDA or letting defense contractors run government efficiency or any of the nakedly corrupt and hateful positions as anything but that - foolishness in the cases it isn’t actually evil.

 

But I don’t actually think most Americans are evil. If you religious folks look at conservative politics and see a reflection of Galatians 5:22, I’ll try and empathize with that being the world that you see and understand that that’s where you’re coming from. I don’t get it, but whatever - it is unequivocally what won this round so I hope you all are correct.

I mean, I agree they aren't actively evil for the most part. But at some point, you have to really accept they chose this with clear eyes. And as I said, I've let go of any solidarity with them. They broke the country willfully, it's on them to repair it if they want.

[BurntEyes 5954]

Just now, Stinkpalm said:

My post would literally say the exact same thing. All of it. Even the Italian immigrant dad, Jewish step-dad, Mexican step-mom stuff.
 

But seriously, I’d love for a legitimate 3rd party to jump into the mix and break up the “us vs them” mindset the nation has now, and force both sides to rein it in and work together a little more. But that’s not going to happen. 

This is the main item I take issue with from a broad stand point. Giving up and giving in isn't the way forward. No, it won't be easy, no it won't be quick, no it won't be painless. 

But the most important aspect to me, is having the desire and conviction to believe in the effort. To unite the people against the broken system rather than continue into tribal break up. The tribalism is exactly the issue. Coast vs Central, rural vs city. Unwillingness to discuss. Finger pointing or out right giving up. 

It has to be a united effort, and there has to be a will, of the people, to work together, for the people to create change, by the people.

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

In 2024 from a mental health standpoint it is easier to just hate both sides and drown out all the bullshit. What I see on this forum is the left being far more attacking to the right than vice versa. That has to change IMO. I wish there was a way to get rid of rep in CR because it makes it rough to have real conversations. I think a lot of the arguments are severe grey area arguments and if you don't have 110% facts to go with your argument the left side in here says your opinion is useless. Sometimes there isn't black and white facts but just realities of situations. 

 

I really think this could be a very productive thread as long as it stays debate form and people don't devolve into the usual stuff it will devolve into. +rep OP

Edited November 7 by BurntOrange&White

[David Dennison 18837]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

I mean, I agree they aren't actively evil for the most part. But at some point, you have to really accept they chose this with clear eyes. And as I said, I've let go of any solidarity with them. They broke the country willfully, it's on them to repair it if they want.

Yeah, but Democrats will have to come in and clean it all up, as per usual.

 

[G650 14229]

1 minute ago, BurntEyes said:

This is the main item I take issue with from a broad stand point. Giving up and giving in isn't the way forward. No, it won't be easy, no it won't be quick, no it won't be painless. 

But the most important aspect to me, is having the desire and conviction to believe in the effort. To unite the people against the broken system rather than continue into tribal break up. The tribalism is exactly the issue. Coast vs Central, rural vs city. Unwillingness to discuss. Finger pointing or out right giving up. 

It has to be a united effort, and there has to be a will, of the people, to work together, for the people to create change, by the people.

The thing, to me, is that it's not really a left right issue as much as a cultural one.

Just now, David Dennison said:

Yeah, but Democrats will have to come in and clean it all up, as per usual.

 

I mean, good luck

[royiv 9236]

Just now, David Dennison said:

I don't vote for Republicans. Ever. For anything.

Done.

I’m with you, but I wasn’t always that way. Until 2012, I regularly voted both parties, leaning pretty heavily R. I would love to be able to make choices that were nuanced and not binary because one side unilaterally supports positions that I find morally reprehensible.

[TexArcher 37761]

So, when asked, I describe myself as extremely liberal socially, fiscally conservative, but not a libertarian.  There's plenty of money for government to provide a safe country, good roads and bridges, excellent schools, and safety nets for those who need them.  And government should stay out of pretty much everything else.

And literally *every single person* I talk to says something like, "Yeah, man, that's me, too."

If only there were a way to have a moderate party.  It would win every election.  Which is why we're not allowed to have it.

So, that's where we have to start, in my opinion.  I have no idea how, or if it's even possible, but if there is a path to fixing this place, to any sort of unity, the first brick to lay is to get rid of the EC and the Super PAC's.

I firmly believe that this country agrees on almost everything already, except for two glaring issues.  And they're big ones, don't get me wrong, but if we already agree on the other 90%, there has to be a way to forge a compromise on those two so that we can come together and be represented by a Middle party that actually gets things done.

Edited November 7 by TexArcher

[David Dennison 18837]

Just now, royiv said:

I’m with you, but I wasn’t always that way. Until 2012, I regularly voted both parties, leaning pretty heavily R. I would love to be able to make choices that were nuanced and not binary because one side unilaterally supports positions that I find morally reprehensible.

Been there since the clusterfuck of 2000. The Iraq War and the ongoing cruelty of Republican culture war bullshit sealed the deal.

 

[Celery Man 20929]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

I mean, I agree they aren't actively evil for the most part. But at some point, you have to really accept they chose this with clear eyes. And as I said, I've let go of any solidarity with them. They broke the country willfully, it's on them to repair it if they want.

I mean yeah, with the caveat that I’m constantly doing the “am I taking crazy pills?” sanity check that I myself am not just doing the same thing on the other side (which is of course what the rebuttal would be) I also agree that it is evil and stupidity. I don’t think that they are all necessarily evil or stupid at their core, but the only way I can understand them is as people who have been broken and corrupted by the steady diet of hate that they have spent decades consuming. And I can at least try and empathize if I understand that as what they have become rather than what they were born to be.

[Celery Man 20929]

2 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

l

And literally *every single person* I talk to says something like, "Yeah, man, that's me, too."

 

What is abundantly clear is that the majority of people who say this, even the ones who believe it, are wrong. It is pure cognitive dissonance.

[BurntEyes 5954]

3 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Coming in hot. 

Politically, I believe abortion should be legal with no restrictions. Simple as that. 

Personally, I think it would be ideal if abortion numbers decrease significantly. It has nothing to do with religion for me. It's because abortion, I assume,  is a terrible thing for a person to go through, and I don't want other people to suffer physically or mentally. I do think Buttigeg was eloquent in his defense of late term abortions with a perspective that needs to be considered more often. A lot of people have already bought a crib or picked out a name. It can be devastating for a family to make that decision, but is THEIR decision. They have to live with it, not us. 

So how do we get abortion numbers down?

I think sex education is important. Why are we pretending we can shield kids from this stuff when modern technology literally guides us to porn? It's just openly posted on Twitter at this point. If you were to type in  "Mark Kelly" in the search button , there's a decent chance that if you scroll down you'll see a video of some dude name Mark fucking a girl named Kelly in the ass. It's ridiculous. 

I think contraception and pregnancy tests should be incredibly cheap, if not free. Happy to hear more detailed suggestions. 

We need to make it very easy and inexpensive for women to go to the doctor in a timely fashion. 

Streamline and speed up the adoption process. Properly incentivize people that will carry to term. 

I know there are many other things that can help, these are just some initial offerings and I'm no expert. 

For those that are anti-abortion due to religious beliefs, I just think that sex is literally a part of our existence and that religion is a social construct. I respect your personal beliefs and for you to live your lives in accordance, as long as you're not harming others.  It's impossible to determine the circumstances and lived experience of others, let them safely make their own decision.

So I agree that it should be legal, but accept the ruling as a state right by the courts.

Now... how to change perceptions of the folks smitten with the Christian Coalition bullshit. That's the tricky part. Helping educate those folks on the shitty state of our state care for unwanted children is a great start. What resonates most? Crime. So a concerted effort to educate the Red folks on the crime levels from poor folks (not just minorities) but the crime rates of all children who grew up in state funded child care. The percentages are astounding relative to the rest of the population. Now, there's a cross reference to our classist criminal justice system, but one step at a time. Keep it simple stupid.

Poor folks with access to reproductive rights have fewer children going into the state system. That means LESS CRIME, and LESS social programs to support those parents.

Lower crime, less "wards of the state". Sell them what they'll buy. 

[TexArcher 37761]

Just now, Celery Man said:

What is abundantly clear is that the majority of people who say this, even the ones who believe it, are wrong. It is pure cognitive dissonance.

Oh, agreed.  They wouldn't be anti-abortion if they were actually socially liberal.

But at least it indicates a willingness to find some common ground and not call the other side libtards for a moment?

[royiv 9236]

5 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

This is the main item I take issue with from a broad stand point. Giving up and giving in isn't the way forward. No, it won't be easy, no it won't be quick, no it won't be painless. 

But the most important aspect to me, is having the desire and conviction to believe in the effort. To unite the people against the broken system rather than continue into tribal break up. The tribalism is exactly the issue. Coast vs Central, rural vs city. Unwillingness to discuss. Finger pointing or out right giving up. 

It has to be a united effort, and there has to be a will, of the people, to work together, for the people to create change, by the people.

I applaud your conviction, but I’m exhausted at this point. I’m going to take some time off from giving a shit and see where this ride takes us. If things get bad for a whole bunch of people, so be it, that’s what a majority of our countrymen and women voted for.

[Vegas64 673]

13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I agree with this in a sense, but I'm also positive it's about to become evil.  These people who listened to everything Trump said and all the warnings from political scientists and historians and Trump's own prior entire fucking cabinet and went "naw I don't think he'll do all that" and voted for him genuinely believe he won't do all the evil shit he ran on. But he will and when confronted with that fact they'll twist into pretzels first denying it, then rationalizing it, then finally justifying it. That's just how human psychology works.   

I think this is why we see "guardrail to guardrail" elections. E.g. one election the D wins in a referendum of Trump and the next one Trump wins in a rout and sweeps the Blue Wall, etc.

Because essentially we (Americans, maybe not you/this board) are doing the football equivalent of "man our starting QB sucks, let's start the 2nd string!".

[BurntEyes 5954]

11 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

In 2024 from a mental health standpoint it is easier to just hate both sides and drown out all the bullshit.

Welcome to my world. 

[The Hot Dog Buffet 1291]

Trump is the only republican presidential candidate that I have ever voted against. The first two times that I voted against him, I felt like I was voting against my own pocketbook for the sake of basic human decency. This election, I am fairly certain that I was also voting on behalf of my pocketbook because the tariff policy that he is running on is going to absolutely wreck us all. I really feel for all of the old people on fixed incomes who are going to see their investments evaporate and prices double or triple. They aren't evil people. They are just very stupid, and we all probably will be stupid, too, at that age.

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

22 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Yes. From the Koch Brothers to Bloomberg, from Elon to Bill, from Amazon to Lockhead.

It's more than that....every sector has been essentially reduced down to 3-4 conglomerates that don't compete with one another. 

[G650 14229]

Just now, Celery Man said:

I don’t think that they are all necessarily evil or stupid at their core, but the only way I can understand them is as people who have been broken and corrupted by the steady diet of hate that they have spent decades consuming.

So in all honesty, I think this is a bit too convenient an excuse in toto. Is it part of it? Yeah, absolutely. But it's not all of it. I fully believe that it's purposeless and ennui that is the real driver. By any metric thinkable, people are better off than 40 years ago. Health outcomes (which are now reversing the past few years because of idiotic choices), you name it. Comfort has never existed for humans at the level it does now. The Cold War went away, existential questions faded. And people were left with a life that closely resembles the people in Wall-E.

 

We used to socially engineer purpose by default, because everything required manpower, social institutions were almost compulsory, you had to have interactions for everything because it couldn't happen online etc..., but now, not so much. People who are intrinsically driven and have a strong sense of self have coped fine, but the other half hasn't.

[BurntEyes 5954]

Just now, Vegas64 said:

I think this is why we see "guardrail to guardrail" elections. E.g. one election the D wins in a referendum of Trump and the next one Trump wins in a rout and sweeps the Blue Wall, etc.

Because essentially we (Americans, maybe not you/this board) are doing the football equivalent of "man our starting QB sucks, let's start the 2nd string!".

Take it to the football board asshole. 😉

I agree it's been that way for a long time. The swing from one side to the other depending on how the wind is blowing. It's part of the problem, the other team will solve it.

[wildcat09 29337]

Just now, Vegas64 said:

I think this is why we see "guardrail to guardrail" elections. E.g. one election the D wins in a referendum of Trump and the next one Trump wins in a rout and sweeps the Blue Wall, etc.

Because essentially we (Americans, maybe not you/this board) are doing the football equivalent of "man our starting QB sucks, let's start the 2nd string!".

I generally agree.  Elections are basically vibes checks with a bunch of largely uninformed and inattentive voters. Too bad we probably won't get to have any more that are actually contestable, though.

[BurntEyes 5954]

Just now, BurntOrange&White said:

It's more than that....every sector has been essentially reduced down to 3-4 conglomerates that don't compete with one another. 

Oh.. food prices are a great example of just that reality. So.. why aren't we talking about it? 

[Hank Kingsley 20903]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I don't vote for Republicans. Ever. For anything.

Done.

I voted against three Republicans I've know personally for years. I admit it was an emotional decision. 

One is a County Commissioner. He's the dad of one of my lifelong friends and I still see him occasionally. Great guy and always liked him even though he's diehard Aggie. His wife went to seminary school about 30 years ago and became REAL religious. I still remember one Saturday morning in my 20s when I got a knock at the door, and with a massive hangover opened it to see the now County Commissioner's wife standing there with a travel bible asking if she could come in and talk to me. This is a woman that took me and her son to the mall as kids with 20 bucks to buy as much candy as we could. We smoked cigarettes in their backyard in HS when they were out to dinner. Girls came over and naughty shit was happening while they slept.  She gifted me the bible and expressed her deep concern about me going to hell. I politely listened and she left. Still love her though. 

[G650 14229]

12 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Lower crime, less "wards of the state". Sell them what they'll buy. 

 

Runnin' through these
Caverns of gold
Runs a river of death indeed
An old hotel serves as a
Shelter for children
Of the street

Abandoned by the promised land
Set sail on your own
How much longer
Will the well
Be dry for those
Who roam

[wildcat09 29337]

11 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

So, when asked, I describe myself as extremely liberal socially, fiscally conservative, but not a libertarian.  There's plenty of money for government to provide a safe country, good roads and bridges, excellent schools, and safety nets for those who need them.  And government should stay out of pretty much everything else.

And literally *every single person* I talk to says something like, "Yeah, man, that's me, too."

If only there were a way to have a moderate party.  It would win every election.  Which is why we're not allowed to have it.

So, that's where we have to start, in my opinion.  I have no idea how, or if it's even possible, but if there is a path to fixing this place, to any sort of unity, the first brick to lay is to get rid of the EC and the Super PAC's.

I firmly believe that this country agrees on almost everything already, except for two glaring issues.  And they're big ones, don't get me wrong, but if we already agree on the other 90%, there has to be a way to forge a compromise on those two so that we can come together and be represented by a Middle party that actually gets things done.

That's because you're speaking abstractly. You might as well be saying "I want a government that's good" and they're basically responding "yeah, me too." People who think they're aligned in abstract goals do in fact have serious genuine disagreements on the details. 

[Vegas64 673]

6 minutes ago, G650 said:

So in all honesty, I think this is a bit too convenient an excuse in toto. Is it part of it? Yeah, absolutely. But it's not all of it. I fully believe that it's purposeless and ennui that is the real driver. By any metric thinkable, people are better off than 40 years ago. Health outcomes (which are now reversing the past few years because of idiotic choices), you name it. Comfort has never existed for humans at the level it does now. The Cold War went away, existential questions faded. And people were left with a life that closely resembles the people in Wall-E.

 

We used to socially engineer purpose by default, because everything required manpower, social institutions were almost compulsory, you had to have interactions for everything because it couldn't happen online etc..., but now, not so much. People who are intrinsically driven and have a strong sense of self have coped fine, but the other half hasn't.

You seem to be very thoughtful in the posts I've seen the last couple of days.

I think you are on to something.

I think what many are dismissing or ignorant of, is the massive shift that our lifestyles and world writ large, will have once AGI, Agentic AI, etc. is fully realized. Yang was ahead of his time with the idea of the Freedom Divident / UBI. There won't be enough pro-social (value-giving, identity-giving, self-actualizing, etc.) work for Americans in a post-labor economics society that we are barreling towards.

[Celery Man 20929]

4 minutes ago, G650 said:

So in all honesty, I think this is a bit too convenient an excuse in toto. Is it part of it? Yeah, absolutely. But it's not all of it. I fully believe that it's purposeless and ennui that is the real driver. By any metric thinkable, people are better off than 40 years ago. Health outcomes (which are now reversing the past few years because of idiotic choices), you name it. Comfort has never existed for humans at the level it does now. The Cold War went away, existential questions faded. And people were left with a life that closely resembles the people in Wall-E.

 

We used to socially engineer purpose by default, because everything required manpower, social institutions were almost compulsory, you had to have interactions for everything because it couldn't happen online etc..., but now, not so much. People who are intrinsically driven and have a strong sense of self have coped fine, but the other half hasn't.

I think I’m likely missing some or much of your point, but I think a lot of what has driven the change in Americans is leveraging the feeling of unfairness. It’s not about good or bad, it’s about fair and unfair. Pandering messaging about what you deserve and what others do not deserve - it has won. People who by any right should be happy and secure in their lot, who loudly claim to value kindness generosity mercy goodness love etc, tell them that other folks are getting a free ride and they lose all perspective. Democrats suggesting that others have had disadvantages? They’re saying that *you* don’t deserve what you have. It’s all out the window. Just decades of that, all the goodness is gone and replaced with hate and bitterness that they don’t even recognize.

[G650 14229]

Just now, Vegas64 said:

You seem to be very thoughtful in the posts I've seen the last couple of days.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

 

This whole thing has really made me reflect a lot. A lot of this stuff I've thought for years really, but being at a point that all the anger has gone and I'm not as clouded by that emotion, I feel like I can articulate it more clearly.

[Hank Kingsley 20903]

14 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

So I agree that it should be legal, but accept the ruling as a state right by the courts.

I just can't wrap my head around the idea that state rights is a good idea with abortion. Determining personal freedoms based on where you or your parents live seems absolutely ridiculous to me. It forces people to move away from where they WANTED to be, and the long term affects of that type of migration will split this country apart even further. 

[G650 14229]

2 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I think I’m likely missing some or much of your point, but I think a lot of what has driven the change in Americans is leveraging the feeling of unfairness. It’s not about good or bad, it’s about fair and unfair. Pandering messaging about what you deserve and what others do not deserve - it has won. People who by any right should be happy and secure in their lot, who loudly claim to value kindness generosity mercy goodness love etc, tell them that other folks are getting a free ride and they lose all perspective. Democrats suggesting that others have had disadvantages? They’re saying that *you* don’t deserve what you have. It’s all out the window. Just decades of that, all the goodness is gone and replaced with hate and bitterness that they don’t even recognize.

So I agree with this for sure. I think it's a result of what I'm postulating as well, as people have time to look around at others and see what they have for a change, and feel aggrieved about it. A keeping up with the Jones writ large, and some of the Jones are people less fortunate than they are even.

 

Of course the irony is they never see the actual parasites like Musk and Bezos who make billions of them and pay no tax and share none of the social burden.

[BurntOrange&White 39930]

18 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Oh.. food prices are a great example of just that reality. So.. why aren't we talking about it? 

Because lobbying is legal