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Art Vandelay

Art Vandelay 1712

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False equivalence. The difference is that there are horrifying examples of Sharia Law still in practice today, just as they were in the middle ages. The same can't be said of Christian theocracies, because those don't exist (thankfully). Christianity began reforming over 500 years ago. Islam needs to do the same.

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CO Horn

CO Horn 156

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42 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Put yer weenie roasting stick down. Old testament  vs. New Testament teachings (and I'm not defending  Christianities many transgressions against people). 

Islam has not had that change, and too many adherents (SEE: The Middle East, Africa) subscribe to the old school theocratic (Mohamaedist) calls for murder of infidels, and Jews, subjugation of women, and all the other vile parts that keeps people under the thumbs of a religion that uses murder as a tool to control it's adherents.

Sharia law is incompatible with western philosophy, govt, and civilization in too many of its tenets.

The funny thing is, those that make the Old v New Testament argument are the first to come back to the Old Testament to justify their intolerance. 

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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5562

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Put yer weenie roasting stick down. Old testament  vs. New Testament teachings (and I'm not defending  Christianities many transgressions against people). 

Islam has not had that change, and too many adherents (SEE: The Middle East, Africa) subscribe to the old school theocratic (Mohamaedist) calls for murder of infidels, and Jews, subjugation of women, and all the other vile parts that keeps people under the thumbs of a religion that uses murder as a tool to control it's adherents.

Sharia law is incompatible with western philosophy, govt, and civilization in too many of its tenets.

Lazy Christians

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

And again, you will try to interpret your religion however you please to have a more comfortable relationship with your moral code. That's the issue with religion and governing by it. It can be used for good or bad. And that's not only an Islam issue. It's used as a weapon today to try to justify the systematic oppression of "others"(lgbtq, Muslims, women). 

And that's why leftists like me see the true value of government. It's everything you crave as a religious person, to teach you how to be moral...without the hocus pocus. Morals are not a divine gift, it's what we as a collective make them. And they are subject to change. Religion HATES change. It's past time society separates itself from those chains. 

Edited by SmokeyTheBear
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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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18 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Lazy Christians

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

And again, you will try to interoperate your religion however you please to have a more comfortable relationship with your moral code. That's the issue with religion and governing by it. It can be used for good or bad. And that's not only an Islam issue. It's used as a weapon today to try to justify the systematic oppression of "others"(lgbtq, Muslims, women). 

And that's why leftists like me see the true value of government. It's everything you crave as a religious person, to teach you how to be moral...without the hocus pocus. Morals are not a divine gift, it's what we as a collective make them. And they are subject to change. Religion HATES change. It's past time society separates itself from those chains. 

I'm not a christian. Show me where modern Christians (not individual whack jobs, but state sponsored groups) are using the Bible to go out and kill people today.  

Oh, and Govt's do not teach people how to be moral. 

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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5562

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Posted
18 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm not a christian. Show me where modern Christians (not individual whack jobs, but state sponsored groups) are using the Bible to go out and kill people today.  

Oh, and Govt's do not teach people how to be moral. 

Look around this thread for examples requested. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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19 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

So an example of a small organized group with an extreme ideology justified by religious views? Is that your definition of individual whack jobs?

Are we talking about ISIS or the alt-right here? They both apply. 

Dude stop it. You're attempt at equivalent examples doesn't even reach anything approaching similarity. There are entire nations practicing old school Islam.  But this is fun keep em coming....

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Js1

Js1 85338

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So just because Christian don't use the Bible to kill people, but instead deny them rights, refuse to provide assistance and healthcare to children and the poor and turn away refugees in times of need, somehow they get to be considered way better?

Fuck stupid religion in the ass. 

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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5562

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Dude stop it. You're attempt at equivalent examples doesn't even reach anything approaching similarity. There are entire nations practicing old school Islam.  But this is fun keep em coming....

Maybe at the level of Islam.....In present day. But Christian history is ripe with state sponsored religious war/terrorism. One could argue that the Iraqi war part 2 was partially justified internally as part of a holy war.

Edited by SmokeyTheBear
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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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19 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Maybe at the level of Islam.....In present day. But Christian history is ripe with state sponsored religious war/terrorism. One could argue that the Iraqi war part 2 was partially justified internally as part of a holy war.

I never said it didn't, but modern christianity is not preaching the things modern (meaning old Islam) islam teaches. And the Gulf War was not a modern crusade unless retribution is the new Jesus on the cross.  You don't think the Bush admin. thought Christianity was gonna replace Saddam Do you ?  I believe the best they were hoping for was a democratically elected gov't.

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29354

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Posted
40 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm not a christian. Show me where modern Christians (not individual whack jobs, but state sponsored groups) are using the Bible to go out and kill people today.  

Oh, and Govt's do not teach people how to be moral. 

Are you familiar with the continent of Africa at all?

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4058

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Again, why are we comparing Christianity to Islam (or vice versa) on the issue of violence when there's a religion that's done far more damage to the world in that arena than the 3 Abrahamic religions combined could ever hope to in their wettest fucking dreams?

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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5562

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I never said it didn't, but modern christianity is not preaching the things modern (meaning old Islam) islam teaches. And the Gulf War was not a modern crusade unless retribution is the new Jesus on the cross.  You don't think the Bush admin. thought Christianity was gonna replace Saddam Do you ?  I believe the best they were hoping for was a democratically elected gov't.

But it still weighs down society.

I don't know their true intent for going back to Iraq. I think Saddam was no longer valuable to us and we needed to practice our military, giving a front row seat for Iran to see how effective we are at destroying a country. But I think it was as loaded with needs of oil, personal vendetta, and possibly a small part feeling like they are doing their duty as good Christians to destroy their religious enemies. 

*but we do know they wanted in there bad enough to lie to the country. 

Edited by SmokeyTheBear
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Loco

Loco 3752

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Posted
28 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I never said it didn't, but modern christianity is not preaching the things modern (meaning old Islam) islam teaches. And the Gulf War was not a modern crusade unless retribution is the new Jesus on the cross.  You don't think the Bush admin. thought Christianity was gonna replace Saddam Do you ?  I believe the best they were hoping for was a democratically elected gov't.

*cough* Bosnia *cough*

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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19 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

But it still weighs down society.

I don't know their true intent for going back to Iraq. I think Saddam was no longer valuable to us and we needed to practice our military, giving a front row seat for Iran to see how effective we are at destroying a country. But I think it was as loaded with needs of oil, personal vendetta, and possibly a small part feeling like they are doing their duty as good Christians to destroy their religious enemies. 

Hey, who knows what all the factors involved were.  I'm no fan of organized religion, but I believe peoples religious faiths are to be respected, and that's ALL faiths.

My problem is people/gov'ts/terrorists using religion to control others.  If you wanna come to America and practice Islam, come on in. If you wanna change America to make it meet islams tenants fuck off.  If you're a christian and wanna make America meet your Christian needs above all others, fuck off.

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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5562

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19 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Hey, who knows what all the factors involved were.  I'm no fan of organized religion, but I believe peoples religious faiths are to be respected, and that's ALL faiths.

My problem is people/gov'ts/terrorists using religion to control others.  If you wanna come to America and practice Islam, come on in. If you wanna change America to make it meet islams tenants fuck off.  If you're a christian and wanna make America meet your Christian needs above all others, fuck off.

And I can actually agree with all that. But you have to separate the systems of government who use religion for bad acts from the religion itself. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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21 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

And I can actually agree with all that. But you have to separate the systems of government who use religion for bad acts from the religion itself. 

Hard to do that in the ME where Islam is more or less the gov't if not the outright gov't  (SEE: Iran).

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SmokeyTheBear

SmokeyTheBear 5562

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18 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Hard to do that in the ME where Islam is more or less the gov't if not the outright gov't  (SEE: Iran).

Yes, but it's the government that is the issue in those instances, not the religion. It's used to easily adopt power from the people. Their society is slow to want to shed the requirement of religion in their society, where the western world has mostly adopted shifting the power and development of law from religion to man. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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19 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Yes, but it's the government that is the issue in those instances, not the religion. It's used to easily adopt power from the people. Their society is slow to want to shed the requirement of religion in their society, where the western world has mostly adopted shifting the power and development of law from religion to man. 

We're gonna have to disagree on that one, cause the mullahs and clerics control the gov't in Iran. Islam is a theocratic type of religion.  It's use tenants don't allow for tolerance or people going their own way. Of course that's my personal take on it, but I don't think I'm wrong.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105142

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19 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

We're gonna have to disagree on that one, cause the mullahs and clerics control the gov't in Iran. Islam is a theocratic type of religion.  It's use tenants don't allow for tolerance or people going their own way. Of course that's my personal take on it, but I don't think I'm wrong.

Know how many takes there are on Christianity, from the Pope to snake handlers to progressive Presbyterians to fundagelicals to Cowboy churches etc. etc. ad infinitum?

Yeah....Islam's kinda like that too.  I'm not particularly steeped in the tradition, and it's not like I know 1,000 muslims, but even in my limited experience, I've experienced several varied flavors of Islam (most all of them pretty tolerant and decent, but a handful fundamentalist and unpleasant -- kinda like my experiences with Christians).

What a pointless fucking tangent.  Let me bring it back home:

 

fxhiqaezsbbl8lzntyrw.png

Fuck nazis.

Always.

Forever and ever.  Amen.

And if you don't get the fact that a big part of our problem was that we have a fucking PRESIDENT who couldn't get or commit to that simple concept -- fuck Nazis, always, forever and ever -- then there are lobotomized garden slugs who make fun of your stupidity.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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29 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Know how many takes there are on Christianity, from the Pope to snake handlers to progressive Presbyterians to fundagelicals to Cowboy churches etc. etc. ad infinitum?

Yeah....Islam's kinda like that too.  I'm not particularly steeped in the tradition, and it's not like I know 1,000 muslims, but even in my limited experience, I've experienced several varied flavors of Islam (most all of them pretty tolerant and decent, but a handful fundamentalist and unpleasant -- kinda like my experiences with Christians).

What a pointless fucking tangent.  Let me bring it back home:

 

fxhiqaezsbbl8lzntyrw.png

Fuck nazis.

Always.

Forever and ever.  Amen.

And if you don't get the fact that a big part of our problem was that we have a fucking PRESIDENT who couldn't get or commit to that simple concept -- fuck Nazis, always, forever and ever -- then there are lobotomized garden slugs who make fun of your stupidity.

Yeah, and when we have an entire region of the world and its gov'ts living by the rules of Christian fanatics preaching Old Testament fire and brimstone christianity, we can talk. 

 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105142

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20 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah, and when we have an entire region of the world and its gov'ts living by the rules of Christian fanatics preaching Old Testament fire and brimstone christianity, we can talk. 

 

I should introduce you to Dan Patrick and Ken Paxton.  They're a hoot.

And -- again, relatively speaking -- I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE POLITICAL TIDES IN SHITBAGISTAN.  Islamofascists aren't marching in my streets chanting blood and soil.  They don't have the ear and sympathy of the POTUS and Stephen Miller and Sebastian Gorka.  They haven't created kiddie jails for brown people in my state.  Nazis and their fucking sympathizers are doing that.  Fuck islamofascist hypotheticals -- I'll be in favor of fighting the ACTUAL nazis and their sympathizers who are ACTUALLY in power in my country, right now.

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4058

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23 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah, and when we have an entire region of the world and its gov'ts living by the rules of Christian fanatics preaching Old Testament fire and brimstone christianity, we can talk. 

 

Such a discussion would have 0 moral value whatsoever. That's what people like you don't get.

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Bozo_Casanova

Bozo_Casanova 26462

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We're gonna have to disagree on that one, cause the mullahs and clerics control the gov't in Iran. Islam is a theocratic type of religion.  It's use tenants don't allow for tolerance or people going their own way. Of course that's my personal take on it, but I don't think I'm wrong.

And yet, par for the course, you are wrong.
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XR4ticlone

XR4ticlone 122

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3 hours ago, Js1 said:

Boom, roasted.

The ignorant among us who shriek about Sharia Law always conveniently ignore the less popular and more controversial aspects of what a Christian Theocracy includes. 

Except no one is throwing those wearing two types of fabrics off buildings...

Or beheading women who would teach...

 

I know, I know...there's the whole gay wedding cake thing...which is way more destructive than that.  🙄

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18860

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19 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Except no one is throwing those wearing two types of fabrics off buildings...

Or beheading women who would teach...

 

I know, I know...there's the whole gay wedding cake thing...which is way more destructive than that.  🙄

The Balkans recently had a war involving Christians ethnically cleansing Muslims. You've seen pictures.

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29354

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15 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Except no one is throwing those wearing two types of fabrics off buildings...

Or beheading women who would teach...

 

I know, I know...there's the whole gay wedding cake thing...which is way more destructive than that.  🙄

You should try googling the Lord's Resistance Army.

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4058

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I'll bite. 

Well let’s just start with the grand champion of all time: statism.

You show me an Abrahamic faith that could even begin to compete with that and I’ll show you pink grass.

Edited by hpslugga
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Foosters

Foosters 17856

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30 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

Except no one is throwing those wearing two types of fabrics off buildings...

Or beheading women who would teach...

 

I know, I know...there's the whole gay wedding cake thing...which is way more destructive than that.  🙄

I just want to hear how sharia law gets implemented in this country. Walk me through the legislative process in which sharia law is codified. Please.

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4058

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Foosters said:

I just want to hear how sharia law gets implemented in this country. Walk me through the legislative process in which sharia law is codified. Please.

There's this guy named Jack.

Jack is this poor boy who lives with his widowed mother and a cow on this farm that the US government subsidizes to not to grow crops. Jack hears these voices in his head. One is from this guy that was President of the US 30-odd years ago. The rest of them are these guys who preach this doctrine known as "prosperity gospel." In those preachments, they teach Jack that you have to "sew your seed" into the earth and the bigger the seed, the bigger the return. He also listens to the old President when he says that tax breaks for those big seed guys will help the world prosper as a result of their own prosperity trickling down to them.

Conflating the two messages as if they were a continuous, single one, Jack goes to the market. On the way, he encounters this 72 year old guy who says he's selling "magic beans." Skeptical, Jack says he's not sure. The 72 year old then Trumps up this story about how the beans are "terrific" and assures him with the age-old, battle-tested, ironclad form of evidence known as "believe me." Jack then trades his one cow to the man and takes the beans.

Jack goes home and he plants the beans, but he lives in Flint, Michigan and waters them with the shit that they have (instead of pure water as he was told by the salesman) and BAM, Sharia Law in the US is born!!!

35 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Something tells me that genie isn't going back in the bottle.

Care to be less cryptic?

Edited by hpslugga
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David Dennison

David Dennison 18860

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20 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

There's this guy named Jack.

Jack is this poor boy who lives with his widowed mother and a cow on this farm that the US government subsidizes to not to grow crops. Jack hears these voices in his head. One is from this guy that was President of the US 30-odd years ago. The rest of them are these guys who preach this doctrine known as "prosperity gospel." In those preachments, they teach Jack that you have to "sew your seed" into the Earth and the bigger the seed, the bigger the return. He also listens to those two Presidents when they say that tax breaks for those big seed guys will help the world prosper as a result of their own prosperity trickling down to them.

Conflating the two messages as if they were a continuous, single one, Jack goes to the market. On the way, he encounters this 72 year old guy who says he's selling "magic beans." Skeptical, Jack says he's not sure. The 72 year old then Trumps up this story about how the beans are "terrific" and assures him with the age-old, battle-tested, ironclad form of evidence known as "believe me." Jack then trades his one cow to the man and takes the beans.

Jack goes home and he plants the beans, but he lives in Flint, Michigan and waters them with the shit that they have (instead of pure water as he was told by the salesman) and BAM, Sharia Law in the US is born!!!

Care to be less cryptic?

For better or worse, statism is here to stay. We're either going to have one or many. 

Edited by David Dennison
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hpslugga

hpslugga 4058

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Posted

I'm not sure what the original point of the "genie" comment was, then. My introduction of statism into the discussion was to show that comparing Christianity and Islam in terms of violence and destruction, with as much hyperbole as either side uses, is as useful as arguing over whether Tony Jacklin or Matt Kuchar were the greatest golfers of all time.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18860

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

I'm not sure what the original point of the "genie" comment was, then. My introduction of statism into the discussion was to show that comparing Christianity and Islam in terms of violence and destruction, with as much hyperbole as either side uses, is as useful as arguing over whether Tony Jacklin or Matt Kuchar were the greatest golfers of all time.

OK. And I get it. But I thought we were talking about religion. You can make the argument that statism is like a religion, but for the purposes of this discussion, I think it is something different, albeit more destructive.

Edited by David Dennison
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hpslugga

hpslugga 4058

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Posted
1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

OK. And I get it. But I thought we were talking about religion. You can make the argument that statism is like a religion, but for the purposes of this discussion, I think it is something different, albeit more destructive.

Being loyal to the English language, it's a religion. It's not one that has shrines where the community congregates and prays to once a week, but it is "a particular system of faith and worship," the faith (which is a belief that's held without/in spite of evidence) being the belief that society is best off with power concentrated into a few select hands in order to manage the social and economic affairs of all peoples.

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89670

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Posted
5 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Again, why are we comparing Christianity to Islam (or vice versa) on the issue of violence when there's a religion that's done far more damage to the world in that arena than the 3 Abrahamic religions combined could ever hope to in their wettest fucking dreams?

Newsflash: the Amish are Christians.

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