CEO of UHG Shot and Killed in NYC - WTF is wrong with you New York

[Brisketexan 106873]

And my daughter literally just sent me this message:

“Omg so I went to pick up my ——- prescription and I also needed deodorant and ———. The lady rings me up and is like “hey, do you pay for your prescriptions?” And I’m like “yeah, I do.” She goes “oh! So because this is a lifelong medication, you can actually get that paid for. Next time you go into your GP, ask for a medical exemption card. Fill that out and then you won’t have to pay for it again!” And I’m like “oh thanks, will do!” Thinking that I am about to pay out the nose for two months of medication. She rings me up. “15.62,” she says. I look at her. She looks at me. I look at her. She says “…cash or card?” I say “sorry, fifTEEN? Is that just for the deodorant and ———?” Because idk I live in London, seems reasonable. She’s like “oh no, all together! The medication is £5.47.” I look like a bumbling idiot.”

Her med is a real-deal necessary treatment, for a serious condition - not unlike insulin in terms of lifetime need. And it is paid for, and getting it was pretty much effortless.

Again, NHS is far from perfect, but goddamn.

[Anastasis 23716]

9 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Maybe, just maybe, using a financialized model to dictate healthcare is the reason we're in this whole fucking mess? If everything comes back to paying off returns on investments, then the patients health is explicitly NOT the top priority of those systems. 

I like innovation. Our system should acknowledge and reward innovation, esp when that innovation is made by individuals or entities that are taking on risk. Unfortunately, nobody has yet figured out a way to power meaningful and consistent innovation in the pharma space with rainbows and cliches. 

Edited December 12 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23716]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And my daughter literally just sent me this message:

“Omg so I went to pick up my ——- prescription and I also needed deodorant and ———. The lady rings me up and is like “hey, do you pay for your prescriptions?” And I’m like “yeah, I do.” She goes “oh! So because this is a lifelong medication, you can actually get that paid for. Next time you go into your GP, ask for a medical exemption card. Fill that out and then you won’t have to pay for it again!” And I’m like “oh thanks, will do!” Thinking that I am about to pay out the nose for two months of medication. She rings me up. “15.62,” she says. I look at her. She looks at me. I look at her. She says “…cash or card?” I say “sorry, fifTEEN? Is that just for the deodorant and ———?” Because idk I live in London, seems reasonable. She’s like “oh no, all together! The medication is £5.47.” I look like a bumbling idiot.”

Her med is a real-deal necessary treatment, for a serious condition - not unlike insulin in terms of lifetime need. And it is paid for, and getting it was pretty much effortless.

Again, NHS is far from perfect, but goddamn.

Their system is effectively subsidized by the American taxpayer and the American consumer. 

[Captainant 28506]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I like innovation. Our system should acknowledge and reward innovation, esp with that innovation is made by individuals or entities that are taking on risk. Unfortunately, nobody has yet figured out a way to power meaningful and consistent innovation in the pharma space with rainbows and cliches. 

Well doing it in a way that doesn't pay out the ruling caste would OBVIOUSLY never work

 

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Their system is effectively subsidized by the American taxpayer and the American consumer. 

And yet despite these subsidies, the billionaire caste is still taking in FAT margins at the cost of human lives and the misery of millions of Americans. 

[GenXer 3425]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And my daughter literally just sent me this message:

“Omg so I went to pick up my ——- prescription and I also needed deodorant and ———. The lady rings me up and is like “hey, do you pay for your prescriptions?” And I’m like “yeah, I do.” She goes “oh! So because this is a lifelong medication, you can actually get that paid for. Next time you go into your GP, ask for a medical exemption card. Fill that out and then you won’t have to pay for it again!” And I’m like “oh thanks, will do!” Thinking that I am about to pay out the nose for two months of medication. She rings me up. “15.62,” she says. I look at her. She looks at me. I look at her. She says “…cash or card?” I say “sorry, fifTEEN? Is that just for the deodorant and ———?” Because idk I live in London, seems reasonable. She’s like “oh no, all together! The medication is £5.47.” I look like a bumbling idiot.”

Her med is a real-deal necessary treatment, for a serious condition - not unlike insulin in terms of lifetime need. And it is paid for, and getting it was pretty much effortless.

Again, NHS is far from perfect, but goddamn.

Fuck me sideways

[Captainant 28506]

11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Their system is effectively subsidized by the American taxpayer and the American consumer. 

Lol yeah Insulin is real cutting edge stuff consuming billions in research funds. Definitely not just a captured market that should be exploited for fat shareholder gainzzzz amirite?

If big pharma is making enough to buy back billions in shares, maybe they don't need as much public subsidy? And if they plan to hold innovation hostage by abusing patents, unless they get their ransom paid out, then I wouldn't be surprised if we see more angry Luigi action 

[elfenix 34743]

23 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Reminds me of a stat I read about Elon Musk:

“Federal Election Commission filings show that Musk spent $277 million to help Trump win reelection, which, given his net worth, is the equivalent of someone with a net worth of $100,000 donating $70.”

and how much is leon's net worth up since election day?

[BabaYaga 15623]

22 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And my daughter literally just sent me this message:

“Omg so I went to pick up my ——- prescription and I also needed deodorant and ———. The lady rings me up and is like “hey, do you pay for your prescriptions?” And I’m like “yeah, I do.” She goes “oh! So because this is a lifelong medication, you can actually get that paid for. Next time you go into your GP, ask for a medical exemption card. Fill that out and then you won’t have to pay for it again!” And I’m like “oh thanks, will do!” Thinking that I am about to pay out the nose for two months of medication. She rings me up. “15.62,” she says. I look at her. She looks at me. I look at her. She says “…cash or card?” I say “sorry, fifTEEN? Is that just for the deodorant and ———?” Because idk I live in London, seems reasonable. She’s like “oh no, all together! The medication is £5.47.” I look like a bumbling idiot.”

Her med is a real-deal necessary treatment, for a serious condition - not unlike insulin in terms of lifetime need. And it is paid for, and getting it was pretty much effortless.

Again, NHS is far from perfect, but goddamn.

Because it's subsidized over there by charging so much more over here.  

[elfenix 34743]

47 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

It was Merck that got sued over a faulty drug, but in the discovery this exact statement was made.  I want to say it was Vioxx?  Where they knew early on it was going to mess people up, but the profits from the drug would outweigh the penalties.  They ran with it, tens of thousands of people died, they got sued, but yes, the profits did in fact outweigh the lawsuit amounts.  

 

in america, business entities are allowed to slowly (and sometimes quickly) poison their customers and their neighbors. and any time someone says maybe they shouldn't be doing that quite so much we get screeches about socialism and waves of disinformation from the descendants of ivy lee that big chunk of society falls for over and over and over again.

[BabaYaga 15623]

33 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

If you want to try to control US healthcare expenditures, which in turn would help to control premium pricing and also reduce the need for Rx utilization management, e.g. step therapies and/or prior auth, we need to start with Pharma. Twenty percent of NHE and there are some really simple common sense things that we could do to start to address, e.g. ban direct to consumer advertising, require cost-effectiveness analyses as part of the approval process, align the pricing of me-too drugs with their incremental benefit, remove some of the absolutely silly regulations that increase costs unnecessarily (e.g. HFA reformulation of inhalers, etc.). All that shit can be done before we start addressing the big issues like securing the investment returns of American taxpayers. 

The fact that the US is one of TWO developed countries along with New Zealand that allow such aggressive pharma marketing/commercials is insane.  Or why is HALF of the FDA's budget coming from the companies it is supposed to regulate?

['stache 22131]

8 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Lol yeah Insulin is real cutting edge stuff consuming billions in research funds. Definitely not just a captured market that should be exploited for fat shareholder gainzzzz amirite?

If big pharma is making enough to buy back billions in shares, maybe they don't need as much public subsidy? And if they plan to hold innovation hostage by abusing patents, unless they get their ransom paid out, then I wouldn't be surprised if we see more angry Luigi action 

Government funded the moon race and the a-bomb but only enormous private profits can possibly fund medicine. He’s really on to something there.

[Anastasis 23716]

4 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Government funded the moon race and the a-bomb but only enormous private profits can possibly fund medicine. He’s really on to something there.

The government is really good at subsidizing weapons programs, we should all be able to grant them that one. You seen the last Pentagon audit?

[Captainant 28506]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

The government is really good at subsidizing weapons programs, we should all be able to grant them that one. You seen the last Pentagon audit?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[Anastasis 23716]

8 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Or why is HALF of the FDA's budget coming from the companies it is supposed to regulate?

User fees are not necessarily a bad thing imo, but the FDA and Pharma are far too intertwined. Revolving door and all.  

[wildcat09 29577]

35 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I like innovation. Our system should acknowledge and reward innovation, esp when that innovation is made by individuals or entities that are taking on risk. Unfortunately, nobody has yet figured out a way to power meaningful and consistent innovation in the pharma space with rainbows and cliches. 

“I like keeping the system structured in a way that personally benefits me but I’m going to pretend it’s for other reasons.”

[Anastasis 23716]

If we COULD power clinical drug innovation off cliches alone, we could run the whole drug development industry solely on the output of a few posters in this thread. 

Edited December 12 by Anastasis

['stache 22131]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The government is really good at subsidizing weapons programs, we should all be able to grant them that one. You seen the last Pentagon audit?

Just cut some more corporate taxes, that’ll fix everything. “Government isn’t perfectly efficient so let’s just keep cutting resources.”

['stache 22131]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

If we COULD power clinical drug innovation off cliches alone, we could run the whole drug development industry solely on the output of a few posters in this thread. 

Sounds like you have concepts of a plan. I’m sure this will all be fixed in the next 4 years.

[Captainant 28506]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

Just cut some more corporate taxes, that’ll fix everything. “Government isn’t perfectly efficient so let’s just keep cutting resources.”

Don't forget the unspoken but strongly implied corrolary! "Corporations are perfectly efficient because they are attuned to and by the markets, so we should focus on giving them public capital"

[BrickHorn 18447]

22 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

“I like keeping the system structured in a way that personally benefits me but I’m going to pretend it’s for other reasons.”

There are viable alternatives to the current laissez faire, patent-driven system for incentivizing pharmaceutical R&D. Anastasis is either not informed on the subject or just doing his typical propagandist smokescreen routine. 

[Anastasis 23716]

27 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

There are viable alternatives to the current laissez faire, patent-driven system for incentivizing pharmaceutical R&D. Anastasis is either not informed on the subject or just doing his typical propagandist smokescreen routine. 

Quigley advocates nationalizing the pharmaceutical industry and seizing their assets. I got lots of problems with the patent system as it relates to drugs. @TwiceHorn and I have had a few different exchanges on the subject with specific case examples discussed. I don't think that nationalizing the system is the right answer. I think that there are ways to get there by closing some of the more egregious loopholes that are taken advantage of by the pharmaceutical industry, and ensuring that the incentive structure promotes innovation instead of treadmilling. But if you want to make a run at the government seizing the industry's assets, go for it. If you can clear the political and legal viability hurdles of such, we can assess the outcomes of that move a decade or two out. I am not sure what the results will be, but I am quite certain that a bunch of lawyers will print coin in the process. 

Edited December 12 by Anastasis

[SpiralOut 1963]

3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

No I don’t remember when TD bank retrofitted their teller windows to accommodate drug cartel duffel bags. Can you provide some background or links to that story?

I recall they had lax AML policies but I’ve never heard of one that had a giant teller slot for duffel bags.

It was HSBC.  And it was actually the cartels that came up with a special box to fit through the windows, not the other way around. Of course, the banks knew exactly what kind of money they were taking in.  This dirty, awful business was so good multiple banks got in on it.

https://www.icij.org/investigations/fincen-files/hsbc-moved-vast-sums-of-dirty-money-after-paying-record-laundering-fine/

Instead, the bank took part in one of the most notorious episodes in money laundering history. As the Mexican drug war metastasized in the mid-2000s, the bank provided essential U.S. dollar-denominated accounts to narco-gangs needing to clean hundreds of millions of dollars in drug earnings. The cartels designed specially shaped boxes that fit HSBC’s teller windows to deliver the massive amounts of illicit cash pouring in.

[SpiralOut 1963]

2 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

Your point stands without having to exaggerate numbers.  Their total yearly revenue is around $30B, net profit is around half of that.  

 

There was one individual found to have knowingly laundered money. He took personal bribes.  He was given federal prison time.  No one else was charged and the company was still fined (the $3b you said, a record amount) as part of the agreement to settle the remaining charges of running afoul of compliance. 

I honestly couldn't remember the details.  It's been awhile.  And TD Bank wasn't the only bank doing this type of shit.  If you think these banks don't know where the money is coming from, I've got some ocean front property in Arizona I'm looking to sell.  

TD Bank didn't even have an anti-money laundering program.  And uh, you kinda have to have one of those according to the Bank Secrecy Act.  They acted like every other shitbird mega corp acts like.  They focused on profits over following the law or the social good.   

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/td-bank-pleads-guilty-bank-secrecy-act-and-money-laundering-conspiracy-violations-18b

“TD Bank prioritized growth and convenience over following its legal obligations,” said U.S. Attorney Philip R. Sellinger for the District of New Jersey. “As a result of staggering and pervasive failures in oversight, it willfully failed to monitor trillions of dollars of transactions – including those involving ACH transactions, checks, high-risk countries, and peer-to-peer transactions – which allowed hundreds of millions of dollars from money laundering networks to flow through the bank, including for international drug traffickers. The bank was aware of these risks and failed to take steps to protect against them, including for two networks prosecuted in New Jersey and elsewhere – one that dumped piles of cash on the bank’s counters and another that allegedly withdrew amounts from ATMs 40 to 50 times higher than the daily limit for personal accounts.”

Sounds like more than just the problems of one guy to me.  Maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

[gsoda3 3362]

4 minutes ago, SpiralOut said:

I honestly couldn't remember the details.  It's been awhile.  And TD Bank wasn't the only bank doing this type of shit.  If you think these banks don't know where the money is coming from, I've got some ocean front property in Arizona I'm looking to sell.  

TD Bank didn't even have an anti-money laundering program.  And uh, you kinda have to have one of those according to the Bank Secrecy Act.  They acted like every other shitbird mega corp acts like.  They focused on profits over following the law or the social good.   

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/td-bank-pleads-guilty-bank-secrecy-act-and-money-laundering-conspiracy-violations-18b

“TD Bank prioritized growth and convenience over following its legal obligations,” said U.S. Attorney Philip R. Sellinger for the District of New Jersey. “As a result of staggering and pervasive failures in oversight, it willfully failed to monitor trillions of dollars of transactions – including those involving ACH transactions, checks, high-risk countries, and peer-to-peer transactions – which allowed hundreds of millions of dollars from money laundering networks to flow through the bank, including for international drug traffickers. The bank was aware of these risks and failed to take steps to protect against them, including for two networks prosecuted in New Jersey and elsewhere – one that dumped piles of cash on the bank’s counters and another that allegedly withdrew amounts from ATMs 40 to 50 times higher than the daily limit for personal accounts.”

Sounds like more than just the problems of one guy to me.  Maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

No doubt, they were systemically turning a blind eye to it.  Only one guy was dumb enough to actually take bribes to do it. I don't remember if they flat out didn't have a money laundering team or if their standards were too low but they definitely have one now.  

[Beau Vine 55859]

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

That's the sort of thing that's illegal if you can't pay for it - ya know, illegal for lower caste but not the ruling caste in our society

Well, I'm sure those days are long gone!

[TexasEd 8266]

21 hours ago, Armybrat said:

That’s just the poor lighting. My palm is actually lily white.

You look dehydrated

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

 

If you want to try to control US healthcare expenditures, which in turn would help to control premium pricing and also reduce the need for Rx utilization management, e.g. step therapies and/or prior auth, we need to start with Pharma. Twenty percent of NHE and there are some really simple common sense things that we could do to start to address, e.g. ban direct to consumer advertising, require cost-effectiveness analyses as part of the approval process, align the pricing of me-too drugs with their incremental benefit, remove some of the absolutely silly regulations that increase costs unnecessarily (e.g. HFA reformulation of inhalers, etc.). All that shit can be done before we start addressing the big issues like securing the investment returns of American taxpayers. 

I like where this is going but what are the unintended consequences of banning the direct to consumer advertising?  Nothing will outweigh not having to see another Jardiance commercial but what do they do?  I think the law already has been changed since the 90s on how much access reps have to doctors offices but what about the remote seminars in Vegas or Bahamas?  

 

[texasdago 7766]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

And my daughter literally just sent me this message:

“Omg so I went to pick up my ——- prescription and I also needed deodorant and ———. The lady rings me up and is like “hey, do you pay for your prescriptions?” And I’m like “yeah, I do.” She goes “oh! So because this is a lifelong medication, you can actually get that paid for. Next time you go into your GP, ask for a medical exemption card. Fill that out and then you won’t have to pay for it again!” And I’m like “oh thanks, will do!” Thinking that I am about to pay out the nose for two months of medication. She rings me up. “15.62,” she says. I look at her. She looks at me. I look at her. She says “…cash or card?” I say “sorry, fifTEEN? Is that just for the deodorant and ———?” Because idk I live in London, seems reasonable. She’s like “oh no, all together! The medication is £5.47.” I look like a bumbling idiot.”

Her med is a real-deal necessary treatment, for a serious condition - not unlike insulin in terms of lifetime need. And it is paid for, and getting it was pretty much effortless.

Again, NHS is far from perfect, but goddamn.

Blew out my knee skiing in France.  ACL rupture, MCL tear, blah blah.  Anyway, walked into a local doctor in the town where we were staying... they took like three pieces of information from me (name, email, phone number... about it), I waited an hour... X-ray was 50 Euro, medicine was 10 Euro, I think the knee brace was the most expensive part... but basically it was quick, efficient and inexpensive.  Had a similar experience in Austria. 

[TexasEd 8266]

1 hour ago, SpiralOut said:

I honestly couldn't remember the details.  It's been awhile.  And TD Bank wasn't the only bank doing this type of shit.  If you think these banks don't know where the money is coming from, I've got some ocean front property in Arizona I'm looking to sell.  

TD Bank didn't even have an anti-money laundering program.  And uh, you kinda have to have one of those according to the Bank Secrecy Act.  They acted like every other shitbird mega corp acts like.  They focused on profits over following the law or the social good.   

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/td-bank-pleads-guilty-bank-secrecy-act-and-money-laundering-conspiracy-violations-18b

“TD Bank prioritized growth and convenience over following its legal obligations,” said U.S. Attorney Philip R. Sellinger for the District of New Jersey. “As a result of staggering and pervasive failures in oversight, it willfully failed to monitor trillions of dollars of transactions – including those involving ACH transactions, checks, high-risk countries, and peer-to-peer transactions – which allowed hundreds of millions of dollars from money laundering networks to flow through the bank, including for international drug traffickers. The bank was aware of these risks and failed to take steps to protect against them, including for two networks prosecuted in New Jersey and elsewhere – one that dumped piles of cash on the bank’s counters and another that allegedly withdrew amounts from ATMs 40 to 50 times higher than the daily limit for personal accounts.”

Sounds like more than just the problems of one guy to me.  Maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

 

51 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

No doubt, they were systemically turning a blind eye to it.  Only one guy was dumb enough to actually take bribes to do it. I don't remember if they flat out didn't have a money laundering team or if their standards were too low but they definitely have one now.  

Yes it was systemic and many people were involved.  They ignored the AML laws and people were taking bribes.

Quote

The operators of this scheme provided employees gift cards worth more than $57,000 to ensure employees would continue to process their transactions. And even though the operators of this scheme were clearly depositing cash well over $10,000 in suspicious transactions, TD Bank employees did not identify the conductor of the transaction in required reports. In a second scheme between March 2021 and March 2023, a high-risk jewelry business moved nearly $120 million through shell accounts before TD Bank reported the activity. In a third scheme, money laundering networks deposited funds in the United States and quickly withdrew those funds using ATMs in Colombia. Five TD Bank employees conspired with this network and issued dozens of ATM cards for the money launderers, ultimately conspiring in the laundering of approximately $39 million. The Justice Department has charged over two dozen individuals across these schemes, including two bank insiders. TD Bank’s plea agreement requires continued cooperation in ongoing investigations of individuals.

As part of the plea agreement, TD Bank has agreed to forfeit $452,432,302.00 and pay a criminal fine of $1,434,513,478.40, for a total financial penalty of $1,886,945,780.40. TD Bank has also agreed to retain an independent compliance monitor for three years and to remediate and enhance its AML compliance program. TD Bank has separately reached agreements with the FRB, OCC, and FinCEN, and the Justice Department will credit $123.5 million of the forfeiture toward the FRB’s resolution.

 

[gsoda3 3362]

1 minute ago, TexasEd said:

 

Yes it was systemic and many people were involved.  They ignored the AML laws and people were taking bribes.

 

Dude took gift cards as bribes. Totally untraceable!! I hadn't heard about the five other employees being charged so that's news to me, thanks.

[RomaVicta 30553]

57 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Well, I'm sure those days are long gone!

How does one define "investing $1 Billion in the USA?" 

Oh, who cares really? Nobody that matters.

Never mind.

[DaysOff 8197]

Sorry, you don't understand words. I'll pray for you.

Prayer doesn't work. Because there is no god.

Moving on. Will this be a trial by jury? There's going to be lots of Poppys in the pool regardless of venue.

[boilerhorn 1621]

15 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

Yea the earnings figure I found for last year was $20B good enough for a spot in the Top 50 in the world....

Both 3%-5% (low to mid single-digit net profit) and $20B can be true - or close.

United Health Care financials:
2023: $371B in revenue; $23B net income after taxes.  23/371 = 6.2% net profit.
2022: $324B revenue; $20.6B net - 6.4%
2021: $287B rev; $17.7 net - 6.2%

What amazes me more is they are carrying $75B in long term debt.  No idea why, nor do I care to spend too much time looking, but it is likely related to using debt - rather than stock - to fund acquisitions.

[Deej 77803]

1 hour ago, texasdago said:

Blew out my knee skiing in France.  ACL rupture, MCL tear, blah blah.  Anyway, walked into a local doctor in the town where we were staying... they took like three pieces of information from me (name, email, phone number... about it), I waited an hour... X-ray was 50 Euro, medicine was 10 Euro, I think the knee brace was the most expensive part... but basically it was quick, efficient and inexpensive.  Had a similar experience in Austria. 

[Newdoc 3511]

1 hour ago, TexasEd said:

what about the remote seminars in Vegas or Bahamas?  

You are twenty years behind. There aren’t any drug company trips to the Bahamas or Hawaii or anything else. Aside from a few speaker deals greasing the palms of a relatively small percentage of doctors, physicians are highly monitored and get push back if we get more than Chick-fil-A for lunch. No trips, no pens, no sports tickets, nada.
 
And it’s all publicly available and easy to find.

 

[chainsaw 10280]

1 minute ago, Newdoc said:

physicians are highly monitored

[HenryJames 67322]

1 hour ago, texasdago said:

Blew out my knee skiing in France.

[texasdago 7766]

22 minutes ago, Deej said:

Would you believe a family of four in Texas can ski in France for the same or less than a family of four in Texas can ski in Breckenridge or Park City or most major ski towns?

By the way, when I blew out my knee, I had previously spend 3 Euro for insurance on my skipass . Getting rescued off the mountain was covered and subsequently free.  No deductible, copay, etc.

  

[Newdoc 3511]

19 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Lol but when it comes to pharmaceutical sponsorship, yes. 

[wild_turkey 3296]

The greater problem here is that capitalism has run amok. It has created a massive wealth divide in this country that is only getting worse and creates countless problems that disrupt and destabilize society. We can’t even have fair elections because Elon will threaten to primary anyone who threatens his fragile ego.

The specific problem here is that capitalism has invaded healthcare. It’s impossible to ethically provide healthcare to the masses when you have a few multi-billion dollar companies who get to decide what degree of care is provided, and those companies are driven by profits and a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, as well as the greed of their own executives.

Brian Thompson and Luigi Mangione are just symptoms of the system America has developed over decades. It’s less surprising that it happened and more surprising that it doesn’t happen more often. I don’t know what the fix is. There probably isn’t one. Maybe these are the problems that eventually reach a tipping point and result in a social uprising.

I’m not happy about any murders but I’ll save my tears for school shooting victims and let other people worry about CEOs.

[Ted Lange 16406]

2 hours ago, texasdago said:

Blew out my knee skiing in France.  Had a similar experience in Austria. 

Might be time to find a new hobby.

[YChang 3565]

13 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

Might be time to find a new hobby.

Maybe that is his hobby!

 

Also so much this... 

Quote

The greater problem here is that capitalism has run amok. It has created a massive wealth divide in this country that is only getting worse and creates countless problems that disrupt and destabilize society. We can’t even have fair elections because Elon will threaten to primary anyone who threatens his fragile ego.

I understand the arugment that the rest of the world benefits from the innovations that pharmaceutical companies put in, but like wild_turkey described when capitalism is broken... it just exacerbates/magnifies the issue here. There's nothing wrong with making money for these companies but it's just getting to a point where they're recouping their R&D and then some (I'm in no way claming I fully understand the intricacies of the pharma industry). 

Edited December 12 by YChang

[Murfdogg21 4563]

4 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

The fact that the US is one of TWO developed countries along with New Zealand that allow such aggressive pharma marketing/commercials is insane.  Or why is HALF of the FDA's budget coming from the companies it is supposed to regulate?

4 hours ago, Anastasis said:

User fees are not necessarily a bad thing imo, but the FDA and Pharma are far too intertwined. Revolving door and all.  

I've been through several *device* approvals (or rather, clearances) with FDA. FDA's primary charge is safety, so they default to being conservative on the preclinical and clinical data they want before letting products hit the market. They charge user fees and others to companies applying, in addition to their demands of data that can cost $100k's for the most simple products, to $10m's on the high end. These costs come after years of product development, where many products in the pipeline fail due to not working or risk of not making it past the FDA.

The typical FDA review group is a manager (who will be working for a Pharma company in 3-5 years), an experienced reviewer who is a lifer and satisfied with being a career federal employee, and 3 or 4 eager and inquisitive young scientists fresh out of grad school with little perspective on industry or how their tangential questions result in major $$$ to the applicant company. It's very challenging for new, smaller companies with limited money and resources to break through. This hampers innovation and competition. It's also why big dogs have hundreds of employees in the regulatory department to strategize and try to streamline the process and minimize time and cost to get to market.

What level of safety risk is the American public willing to accept if we direct the FDA to be more lenient (and less expensive) on approvals? Other countries benefit from USA innovation in drugs and medical devices. FDA approval/clearance (or the data you acquired to get it) gets you 90+% there towards approval in foreign countries. American patients pay for the innovation and FDA approval costs through higher prices than are paid elsewhere. We can cap prices or profits, but there will be undesirable effects. There are a lot of levers to pull that impact expensive healthcare is in America (pharma/device company profits, insurance company profits, FDA regulation, physician costs, medical school costs, etc. etc.). I stepped on a couple Surly doctors' toes in an earlier post that suggested physicians' income and fees were one of those levers.

[Beau Vine 55859]

I once stubbed my toe REALLY bad in Toronto.

 

[locodos 5590]

2 hours ago, texasdago said:

Blew out my knee skiing in France.  ACL rupture, MCL tear, blah blah.  Anyway, walked into a local doctor in the town where we were staying... they took like three pieces of information from me (name, email, phone number... about it), I waited an hour... X-ray was 50 Euro, medicine was 10 Euro, I think the knee brace was the most expensive part... but basically it was quick, efficient and inexpensive.  Had a similar experience in Austria. 

[texasdago 7766]

8 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I once stubbed my toe REALLY bad in Toronto.

 

I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* not a healthcare CEO, for the record

[BabaYaga 15623]

5 minutes ago, texasdago said:

* not a healthcare CEO, for the record

[Goredho 17649]

33 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

The greater problem here is that capitalism has run amok. It has created a massive wealth divide in this country that is only getting worse and creates countless problems that disrupt and destabilize society. We can’t even have fair elections because Elon will threaten to primary anyone who threatens his fragile ego.

The specific problem here is that capitalism has invaded healthcare. It’s impossible to ethically provide healthcare to the masses when you have a few multi-billion dollar companies who get to decide what degree of care is provided, and those companies are driven by profits and a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, as well as the greed of their own executives.

Brian Thompson and Luigi Mangione are just symptoms of the system America has developed over decades. It’s less surprising that it happened and more surprising that it doesn’t happen more often. I don’t know what the fix is. There probably isn’t one. Maybe these are the problems that eventually reach a tipping point and result in a social uprising.

I’m not happy about any murders but I’ll save my tears for school shooting victims and let other people worry about CEOs.

Hey, if corporations > humans and completely unregulated free market capitalism is the law of the land, then offing a CEO is just a mild correction within the unregulated free market.

[texasdago 7766]

14 minutes ago, locodos said:

Yeah... maybe hobbled but here's the funny thing... blowing an ACL in my right knee was drastically less painful that tearing an MCL in my left knee.  I didn't believe him when he told me it was totally ruptured because it didn't feel bad.  

[Brian Fantana 6862]

35 minutes ago, YChang said:

the innovations that pharmaceutical companies put in

They don't innovate shit. They iterate on things that are, for the most part, created/discovered using public money. Then they get to reap the profits while we get nothing in return.

[sidis 10013]

58 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

The greater problem here is that capitalism has run amok. It has created a massive wealth divide in this country that is only getting worse and creates countless problems that disrupt and destabilize society. We can’t even have fair elections because Elon will threaten to primary anyone who threatens his fragile ego.

The specific problem here is that capitalism has invaded healthcare. It’s impossible to ethically provide healthcare to the masses when you have a few multi-billion dollar companies who get to decide what degree of care is provided, and those companies are driven by profits and a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, as well as the greed of their own executives.

Brian Thompson and Luigi Mangione are just symptoms of the system America has developed over decades. It’s less surprising that it happened and more surprising that it doesn’t happen more often. I don’t know what the fix is. There probably isn’t one. Maybe these are the problems that eventually reach a tipping point and result in a social uprising.

I’m not happy about any murders but I’ll save my tears for school shooting victims and let other people worry about CEOs.

perfectly stated.