CEO of UHG Shot and Killed in NYC - WTF is wrong with you New York

[Brisketexan 106,891]

I do love the “American exceptionalism” that dominated the discussion. Like no other country or system has introduced or innovated a kajillion elements of life-saving medical care and the like.
Yes, the world would still have amazing, innovative care and treatment WITHOUT massive profit-taking in the US.
And…employers are skimming money off the top too? WTF are you talking about? I’m an employer, we provide healthcare (we have a broker, we pick a plan, we pay for it). It’s a cost center for us, and only a cost center. I don’t get what the hell you are telling about, but I assure you that I don’t get an extra check at the end of the year if we fuck over enough of our employees by denying them care. Sure, our loss ratio affects our collective premiums, but…we then pay them, pretty much whatever they are.

[safe sex 12,007]

3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

ts a bit like tragedy of the commons that everyone in the healthcare industry is working to extract as much money as possible from the system.

That is simply not true.

[Bevo 13,882]

30 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yes, the world would still have amazing, innovative care and treatment WITHOUT massive profit-taking in the US.

This is false. Pharmaceuticals and advanced medical devices exist because of the US patent system, US investors in biotech, the money the US government and companies throw into basic research and the profits that companies can achieve in the US by developing medical improvements and breakthroughs.

[Captainant 28,538]

4 minutes ago, Bevo said:

This is false. Pharmaceuticals and advanced medical devices exist because of the US patent system, US investors in biotech, the money the US government and companies throw into basic research and the profits that companies can achieve in the US by developing medical improvements and breakthroughs.

You'd think an industry that sits on top of the Hippocratic Oath would care more about patient wellbeing than profits. Everything starts and ends with investors. That guarantees that patients will never be the highest priority of that system. Patients have no means to influence the incentive structure that drives all of this ugliness and denial of care.

[royiv 9,788]

2 hours ago, Captainant said:

A doctor isn't getting paid $4,000 but Kelsey Seybold is. That is my entire point. The doctors and nurses and patients - the raison d'etre for this whole thing - are at the end of the whip and subject to whatever comes from on high, and the healthcare industry is holding the other end.

FWIW, Kelsey-Seybold is owned by United Healthcare.

[Bevo 13,882]

32 minutes ago, Captainant said:

You'd think an industry that sits on top of the Hippocratic Oath would care more about patient wellbeing than profits. Everything starts and ends with investors. That guarantees that patients will never be the highest priority of that system. Patients have no means to influence the incentive structure that drives all of this ugliness and denial of care.

 

Profits in the pharmaceutical and medical device industries leads to patient well-being. Without money, there is some research but there is no development and no commercialization.

[Brisketexan 106,891]

This is false. Pharmaceuticals and advanced medical devices exist because of the US patent system, US investors in biotech, the money the US government and companies throw into basic research and the profits that companies can achieve in the US by developing medical improvements and breakthroughs.

Wait…this post isn’t satire?
Seriously? Europe, for example….hasn’t provided any major advances in pharmaceuticals and devices? China, Japan, Korea…nothing from them? No question American advancements are a big player, but 1) we’re IT, and 2) other countries wouldn’t have undertaken similar efforts if we weren’t a major player?
Jesus, the nearsightedness of Americans is breathtaking.

[Bevo 13,882]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Wait…this post isn’t satire?
Seriously? Europe, for example….hasn’t provided any major advances in pharmaceuticals and devices? China, Japan, Korea…nothing from them? No question American advancements are a big player, but 1) we’re IT, and 2) other countries wouldn’t have undertaken similar efforts if we weren’t a major player?
Jesus, the nearsightedness of Americans is breathtaking.

We are talking recent history, right? Because sure you could talk about Louis Pasteur and the Pasteur Institute, but that was many years ago. Now we are talking about multinational companies with headquarters in places like Basel and London and Paris and New York. But if you look at the revenue of any of them, half their worldwide revenue comes from the US. And that equates to about 80% of their profits. And the biotech industry is even more US centric. University research is a little more diverse, but NIH funding pretty much dwarfs research funding from other countries at $45 billion. So yeah, the development of the worlds' medical advances are mainly derived from the US. Perhaps you should do some research before arguing with medical experts. Jesus, the arrogance of some attorneys is breathtaking.

[Captainant 28,538]

11 minutes ago, Bevo said:

But if you look at the revenue of any of them, half their worldwide revenue comes from the US. And that equates to about 80% of their profits. And the biotech industry is even more US centric. University research is a little more diverse, but NIH funding pretty much dwarfs research funding from other countries at $45 billion.

Yeah they have more revenue from the US because there's no laws against gouging sick people for care, like there are in Europe. And if most the research funding is coming from NIH - the government - I'm not sure how we NEED to be extracting profits from sick people in order to have medical advances

[TwiceHorn 32,078]

I definitely think there is more of a role for capitalism in drug and device development than in more core aspects of healthcare like providers and facilities.

That doesn't mean largely unrestrained capitalism as currently practiced by pharma, as an example.  There's a whole wealth of medical technology that we never hear much about, such as imaging and devices, where a whole lot of innovation occurs.  Shit's expensive, but I'm not sure it's disproportionately so.  I used to do patents on surgical devices that seemed expensive af for single-use devices (few hundred bucks), but not totally outrageously so.

[Brian Fantana 6,866]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

Profits in the pharmaceutical and medical device industries leads to patient well-being. Without money, there is some research but there is no development and no commercialization.

This just screams someone trying to justify their own existence. Most pharmaceutical novel chemical compound research & development is funded by public money and undertaken by public institutions. Period. Pharmaceutical companies do not innovate, they iterate, and the public never sees any return on their investment other than having the privilege of paying them exorbitant prices for prescription drugs. Medical device development is not on the same shitlord tier as the pharmaceutical industry, but it is entirely dependent on a very broad and robust base of biomedical knowledge which is, again, almost entirely publicly funded and researched in public institutions.

[Gatorubet 30,715]

7 hours ago, Bevo said:

Luigi is a murdering putz. Pick better heroes.

[Gatorubet 30,715]

45 minutes ago, Bevo said:

We are talking recent history, right? Because sure you could talk about Louis Pasteur and the Pasteur Institute, but that was many years ago. Now we are talking about multinational companies with headquarters in places like Basel and London and Paris and New York. But if you look at the revenue of any of them, half their worldwide revenue comes from the US. And that equates to about 80% of their profits. And the biotech industry is even more US centric. University research is a little more diverse, but NIH funding pretty much dwarfs research funding from other countries at $45 billion. So yeah, the development of the worlds' medical advances are mainly derived from the US. Perhaps you should do some research before arguing with medical experts. Jesus, the arrogance of some attorneys is breathtaking.

it is fascinating to see somebody undertake such a screed and miss the entirety of the substance of the discussion.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,455]

4 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

You paid $20.

And a career’s worth of monthly premiums.  Let’s not gloss over that part.

[Fudge Nuggets 19,455]

45 minutes ago, Captainant said:

And if most the research funding is coming from NIH - the government - I'm not sure how we NEED to be extracting profits from sick people in order to have medical advances

Ding ding ding.  

[Bevo 13,882]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

I definitely think there is more of a role for capitalism in drug and device development than in more core aspects of healthcare like providers and facilities.

That doesn't mean largely unrestrained capitalism as currently practiced by pharma, as an example.  There's a whole wealth of medical technology that we never hear much about, such as imaging and devices, where a whole lot of innovation occurs.  Shit's expensive, but I'm not sure it's disproportionately so.  I used to do patents on surgical devices that seemed expensive af for single-use devices (few hundred bucks), but not totally outrageously so.

A 6 Tesla MRI machine is up to $7M and a stent can cost up to $5000ea and an anesthesia workstation is probably $40K and a home dialysis machine is $45K. But the simple stuff like sutures aren't that cheap either.

[Bevo 13,882]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Yeah they have more revenue from the US because there's no laws against gouging sick people for care, like there are in Europe. And if most the research funding is coming from NIH - the government - I'm not sure how we NEED to be extracting profits from sick people in order to have medical advances

Or another way to look at it is that the US consumer pays for the world's medical advances.

[royiv 9,788]

28 minutes ago, Bevo said:

A 6 Tesla MRI machine is up to $7M and a stent can cost up to $5000ea and an anesthesia workstation is probably $40K and a home dialysis machine is $45K. But the simple stuff like sutures aren't that cheap either.

Not that they’re cheap, but no one pays sticker for imaging equipment. I’ve negotiated deals with GE that had 60% discounts off of list price. The fact that they can offer those kinds of discounts should tell you a little about the mark-ups on those products.

[Bevo 13,882]

5 minutes ago, royiv said:

Not that they’re cheap, but no one pays sticker for imaging equipment. I’ve negotiated deals with GE that had 60% discounts off of list price. The fact that they can offer those kinds of discounts should tell you a little about the mark-ups on those products.

And they kind of screw the developing universities. Univ. of Minnesota, University of Wisconsin and the Medical College of Wisconsin together pretty much invented modern MRI machines. GE, Siemens, and Toshiba license some of the tech and steal some of the tech and none of them enforce the patents. More important, GE throws some money to the researchers and the researchers keep the university from enforcing the patents. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,730]

6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I do love the “American exceptionalism” that dominated the discussion. Like no other country or system has introduced or innovated a kajillion elements of life-saving medical care and the like.
Yes, the world would still have amazing, innovative care and treatment WITHOUT massive profit-taking in the US.
And…employers are skimming money off the top too? WTF are you talking about? I’m an employer, we provide healthcare (we have a broker, we pick a plan, we pay for it). It’s a cost center for us, and only a cost center. I don’t get what the hell you are telling about, but I assure you that I don’t get an extra check at the end of the year if we fuck over enough of our employees by denying them care. Sure, our loss ratio affects our collective premiums, but…we then pay them, pretty much whatever they are.

Huh, no one is a saying that employers are taking a cut. But employers are the ones who advise insurance administrators on the coverage. They’re always conveniently forgotten about when it comes to denials.

[Bevo 13,882]

5 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

This just screams someone trying to justify their own existence. Most pharmaceutical novel chemical compound research & development is funded by public money and undertaken by public institutions. Period. Pharmaceutical companies do not innovate, they iterate, and the public never sees any return on their investment other than having the privilege of paying them exorbitant prices for prescription drugs. Medical device development is not on the same shitlord tier as the pharmaceutical industry, but it is entirely dependent on a very broad and robust base of biomedical knowledge which is, again, almost entirely publicly funded and researched in public institutions.

 

Wrong, but I worked in the biotech industry for 15 years in licensing, business development, marketing management and consulting. So, I have enough experience to be considered an expert in university technology transfer, basic research, biotech companies, pharmaceutical companies and immunohistochemistry diagnostic companies (not much experience in medical equipment). And now I have 15 years of experience in patient care. Just since we are discussing the issue, besides being a consumer, what is your experience?